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院長我看您的背景我深深覺得你對原住民的權益的漠視甚至我可以說你是帶著殖民的思維我還記得上次就是6月7號總質詢我在這邊跟你的對話你總是提到禁法補償是政府對原住民的照顧"},{"start":108.605,"end":128.792,"text":"所以你會編列4萬塊是可以的編列6萬塊算太多你這樣子的說法我並不意外院長我在這邊提醒您你應該非常的清楚因為你是法律系畢業的照顧這兩個字是政府的援助"},{"start":131.629,"end":132.369,"text":"我們在行政院"},{"start":155.276,"end":160.788,"text":"行動101策略當中我們說現在行政院兩項大的政策就是照顧跟發展"},{"start":162.383,"end":166.464,"text":"原住民保留地禁法補償是補償原住民在憲法上我們的生存權還有財產權的損害"},{"start":191.011,"end":215.688,"text":"因為我們的政府禁止原住民使用我們的民族已經開墾在這塊土地上開墾千年以上的土地而我們現在的政府對我們的族人沒有辦法再度的農耕維生而我們的補償額度僅僅只能夠維持最基本的生計"},{"start":216.869,"end":235.655,"text":"我們的政府用法律用最強力的手段剝奪了我們原住民的生存權我們不卑不亢我們僅僅要求最低限度的補償這會太過分嗎 院長您休息一下我覺得要問一下曾主委曾主委"},{"start":240.584,"end":267.255,"text":"我請問一下 行政院或者民進黨一直不斷的對外放話說禁法補償這個法律是違憲的你是不是認同禁法補償是因為限制了原住民使用自己的土地這是一種補償對啊 我問你啦民進黨團還有一些人對外放話原住民禁法補償是違憲你是不是認同這句話"},{"start":268.246,"end":269.448,"text":"蔡英文執政8年期間,禁法補償是違憲嗎?"},{"start":286.287,"end":298.299,"text":"還是說你們覺得這一次的修法才是違憲如果你們堅持這一次的修法是違憲法那就更可笑了 院長你說4萬塊是合憲 6萬塊是違憲我還是想請問一下 6萬塊真的很多嗎"},{"start":304.87,"end":306.711,"text":"政府為了照顧老年的農民生活"},{"start":333.618,"end":355.818,"text":"沒有任何的條件之下我們的農民每個月就可以領取八千一百一十塊每年是九萬七千三百二十塊而我們原住民被限制了我們用來謀生的土地即便我們的這次修法之後平均每個月我們才可以領到五千塊"},{"start":357.319,"end":381.195,"text":"我們來看一下113年全國最低的生活費每個月是多少一萬四千兩百三十我們原住民僅僅要求這個金額的三分之一居然還被院長您嫌多我不理解我的主任更不理解院長您可以休息一下我要請教主委"},{"start":382.605,"end":409.504,"text":"主委主計長9月25號來到我辦公室跟我說明是主委你沒有積極爭取這導致競爬補償沒有編足9月25號到現在已經10月8號了你根本沒有跟任何一個人或者是對外來溝通說明9月25號到現在10月8號囉這當中你還去哪裡去帛琉玩了好幾天喔"},{"start":410.447,"end":422.829,"text":"可見你在這邊是準備充足覺得可以籌足我們相關的預算對嗎我跟委員報告第一個就是說每一個特別是我們原住民的立委我每一個立委都有去說明過"},{"start":424.076,"end":425.437,"text":"國慶日是10月1號吧"},{"start":442.927,"end":468.2,"text":"你是幾號去的?26號你就去啦?你躲避了禮拜五在這邊的總質詢啊而我幫你查過了禮拜六是可以有非帛琉的班機啊26號到1號還有那麼多的時間更何況更何況你的前面的副主委也跟你一起去啊"},{"start":468.88,"end":489.251,"text":"主委你不要在這邊在這邊再拿這個來做唐山我現在先請教主委我先請教主委人民會單位的預算是不是僅僅編列4萬塊的額度而剩餘的2萬塊額度你是不是準備要從原住民綜合發展基金中來編列"},{"start":490.575,"end":518.933,"text":"跟委員報告這個預算一下子從3萬變6萬當然我們預算上是沒有辦法一時來做我沒有問你這個我是說你是不是這個不足的2萬塊你要從原住民的綜合發展基金裡面來挪用 是嗎是不是所以當然要用基金來做既然這樣我就問你最基本的問題你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據是什麼嗎"},{"start":520.953,"end":527.535,"text":"法源依據是什麼 沒關係你不要浪費我的時間我給你答案 你照念一遍就好預算法第4條第1項第2款第4目凡經過付出仍可收回的不是用於營業者為作業基金對不對那基金可以作為什麼用途"},{"start":551.068,"end":578.773,"text":"可以作爲什麽用途沒關係你不知道也給你答案來看一下他可以做什麽用途你念一下原住民族基本法第18條辦理原住民經濟發展業務輔導事業機構住宅還有興辦租售建構以及修繕業務這是我們基金可以做的有哪一個有講到禁法補償"},{"start":580.305,"end":593.377,"text":"主委啊你連基金的法源依據還有用途能夠作為什麼你都不知道你是怎麼幫族人來把關這個預算啊我跟委員報告你不要再回答了你連這兩個法律你都不知道謝謝指教院長"},{"start":599.242,"end":616.815,"text":"6月份我在這裡對您的總質詢你說修法過程當中就應該要合理的討論而民進黨也提到經法補償條例是在野黨多數暴力的產物現在我來為您理清一下整個修法的脈絡"},{"start":618.482,"end":646.323,"text":"這一屆第一會期我擔任了內政的召委就在4月17號內政跟經濟來審查進法補償條例的聯席會議當中你們的行政機關是這麼說的來我們看一下法務部的報告攸關援助民主權益保障這四設主管機關與大院的職權跟決定本部競表尊重"},{"start":647.984,"end":662.955,"text":"農業部的報告說什麼呢嚴育提高淨法補償金還有擴大淨法的區域範圍對於維護森林還有自然保育的資源是有正面效益的"},{"start":663.976,"end":685.324,"text":"而你們的主計總署在備詢的時候更回答委員的質詢說如果修法通過的話其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出在編預算的時候他會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關的經費"},{"start":689.665,"end":709.613,"text":"行政機關表達支持：不分黨派的立法委員也都提案蘇巧慧委員她甚至還提出什麼你知道嗎提出禁法補償金調到7萬塊她也樂觀其成這些在所有的會議記錄是都可以查詢的喔"},{"start":710.698,"end":720.826,"text":"審查結論甚至還從善如流的按照民進黨立法委員吳立華委員他提出的額度來通過"},{"start":722.692,"end":748.203,"text":"這難道是多數暴力嗎5月2號政黨協商裡面大家對於禁法補償增加到6萬塊也都表達贊同而這些民進黨的立法委員的連署還有委員當時的發言都是贊成修法的這難道也是在野黨多數的暴力嗎好啦即便在6月24號總統公佈了"},{"start":751.578,"end":753.079,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛這一段的陳述證明這不是黨派問題"},{"start":774.295,"end":797.481,"text":"他不是黨派問題不是顏色問題是守不守法的問題是是非對錯的問題立法行政兩院院計分立的問題行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算制定編列的權限是在行政院立法委員的權限也可以提案啊好啦好啦院長院長院長我提醒你齁我提醒你我提醒你"},{"start":802.242,"end":806.964,"text":"委員你經常把最重要的那一段漏掉沒有錯所以委員都漏掉最重要的那一段造成人民的誤解這是永遠連接下來的"},{"start":822.472,"end":843.404,"text":"立法跟行政院要互相尊重我們的分際﹖如果有任何意見的話﹖如果有意見不同的話﹖立法院是多數決﹖只要是經過民主議程表決通過的﹖就是法律﹖院長 院長 院長好了提不提復議案﹖提不提復議案﹖"},{"start":849.307,"end":851.628,"text":"提不提復議案是你行政院決定的也是你的法定職權"},{"start":864.605,"end":883.095,"text":"你剛剛的一派服務員真的有需你作為一個行政院長報告我再說一次在整個立法當中行政機關的正面看法還有民進黨委員在審查的時候的支持我們都可以看到它的必要性跟合理性"},{"start":884.415,"end":905.125,"text":"目前唯一阻擋的就是說話不算話的賴皮政府三讀通過總統的法律 院長你知道嗎你是第一個公然違抗總統的行政院我剛剛都已經說了合法的過程是非常合法的也沒有所謂的多數暴力我現在請教一下委員會"},{"start":906.519,"end":925.496,"text":"原民會主委你的任務是不是包含要捍衛原民會的預算對嗎是好現在我從編列預算的過程裡面來請教你原住民進法補償條例修正通過的時候原民會你們是不是有向行政院提報52億元的需求經費要編列在原民會的單位預算內有沒有"},{"start":926.206,"end":950.563,"text":"我們希望是這樣子好謝謝也就是說從一開始你們原民會就知道經費應該要編列在原民會單位預算內而不是在基金之內所以呢所需要的額度是52億元原民會你要52億行政院只給你28億短缺了24億按照9月25號主計長到我辦公室他說的"},{"start":951.303,"end":979.158,"text":"你人民會應該要捍衛法律然後立即發函給行政院然後向行政院長爭取編列足額的經費請問一下主委人民會現在有再一次向行政院爭取嗎有還是沒有我們一直都跟主計總書這裡有沒有再發函給我們行政院長你還要爭取不足的部分有沒有有好 謝謝我現在要再問你"},{"start":982.008,"end":1011.6,"text":"如果你要從原住民族綜合發展基金撥付的話我現在就從基金的基本使用再問你你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據嗎剛剛已經問過你了你現在再回答對我知道知道是什麼就是目前的原住民的這個綜合基金的狀況我了解不是狀況我說法源依據剛剛已經問過你了來來助理再給他一次答案有就是作業基金凡經復出仍可回收"},{"start":1012.489,"end":1018.498,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金有哪一些業務是屬於付出然後可以收回的"},{"start":1026.311,"end":1027.291,"text":"比如說原住民的貸款"},{"start":1048.439,"end":1051.822,"text":"發給族人之後有不足的地方就是不足的地方不是啦"},{"start":1064.571,"end":1069.454,"text":"6萬塊發給族人族人拿了這個6萬塊還要還給你的基金嗎不是嘛對不對他就拿走放在口袋了嘛請問一下這有符合基金要可付出仍可收回的性質嗎既然我們金髮不髒出去了他是不可以償還的這是代表什麼代表"},{"start":1088.968,"end":1100.265,"text":"議員："},{"start":1100.509,"end":1104.151,"text":"你跟行政院要52億 行政院給你28億 還少了24億主委你說基金仍然有17億可以調動 17-24是多少"},{"start":1129.814,"end":1150.817,"text":"7億來答案給你不足的部分不足的部分請問你要怎麼補我跟委員報告不用講了我們要精算你也說不了什麼你看一下這是你原民會今年給我的基金預算書明年114年度你的基金只剩下10億可以用你知道嗎第二個我再問你"},{"start":1153.204,"end":1170.796,"text":"這17億淨費裡面你說要從綜合發展基金出去嗎而且你說你要編17億是不是包含明年微小貸款的額度所以當微小貸款的經費全部都放在淨法補償上難道明年度的微小貸款你就不辦了嗎這個你必須跟主任說清楚這不會影響這個"},{"start":1174.645,"end":1201.737,"text":"進化補償我跟委員講最快也是明年的這個時候才發放我現在跟你講的是114年度的綜合發展基金你在講什麼啊主委你到底有沒有進入狀況啊從整個的基金來調度啊第三個再問你更簡單的問題如果你真的要違法用基金撥付進化補償的費用按照你說基金有17億可以用但是你的預算書非常的清楚說"},{"start":1202.677,"end":1229.583,"text":"明年也就是114年的你們的綜合發展基金短處多少你知道嗎67億多你就知道啊短處已經快破產啦你知道嗎主委我真的覺得你蠻離譜的尤其是在今年第一屆新竹縣原住民運動會上面你跟著廣大大眾說什麼我們原住民是人也是鬼"},{"start":1230.578,"end":1233.803,"text":"請問一下你現在是人還是鬼現在是人還是鬼你現在是人還是鬼"},{"start":1245.504,"end":1271.03,"text":"我更記得上個會期你在業務報告裡面跟我說你說爭取園民會的預算是足為很重要的業務可是我發現你向行政院爭取經費你不敢基金是什麼你也搞不清楚可是他給你足夠了嗎還不夠啊然後基金是什麼你也搞不清楚"},{"start":1271.77,"end":1295.439,"text":"基金現在要面臨破產了你也不知道主委你是要做怎麼樣一個盡責的主委啊你說禁法補償明年會如其發你相信你自己說的話嗎我告訴你我是不相信啦除了你睜眼說瞎話之外我們來看一下審查禁法補償條例的時候法務部說什麼會尊重立法院的權責"},{"start":1296.979,"end":1314.347,"text":"農業部說什麼對國土保育有正面的效益主計整處更說什麼他說會依法編列不到兩個月喔你們現在告訴我們說編列預算有困難這個是讓我們的族人怎麼相信你們民進黨的鬼話"},{"start":1315.731,"end":1342.667,"text":"立法程序我們有充分的溝通院長說他只能先給4萬塊甚至只願意給4萬塊然後我剛剛裡面告訴你舉了這麼多的例子我們的基金也確實是沒有辦法挪用到撥付進法補償不管是他的破產不管是他的法律可是行政院你們真的還是要硬幹啊"},{"start":1343.527,"end":1344.247,"text":"這個論點唯一成立的前提是"},{"start":1364.258,"end":1381.108,"text":"原民會的預算是給足的按照原住民的人口來計算我們原住民的人口數在現在全國的人總數是2.59%應該要有811億的預算而我們現在只分配到多少0.39%也就是122億"},{"start":1384.75,"end":1412.071,"text":"即使即使再加上民進黨你們不斷的對外講說其他不會用在原住民的身上我也幫你整合了也只有178億這兩個加起來300億連828.8億的一半都不到然後我再告訴你一個事情原住民族地區的行政單位的成績他只有鄉鎮市區的成績"},{"start":1413.342,"end":1437.845,"text":"他們根本也沒有辦法分配所謂的專屬的統籌分配稅款原住民地區的鄉鎮市區我們僅僅只能夠依靠原民會的補助款在生存啊院長你給原住民原民會穿小鞋也就罷了我認為這雙鞋還是嬰兒鞋你對外還有說什麼立法院不能夠增加預算的方式來通過法案"},{"start":1438.564,"end":1462.784,"text":"但是你看一下你們的柯總召在96年他曾經提出老年農民福利津貼暫時條例的修正案要求老農津貼從每個月5000塊要調高到6000塊然後又在100年的時候再次以民進黨團提修正案從每個月的6000塊調到7000塊我們可以看到他每一次的修正"},{"start":1463.564,"end":1478.245,"text":"支出將近90億請問民進黨可以高金素梅在這邊提案而且是按照民主程序三讀總統公佈的法律你"},{"start":1479.622,"end":1481.043,"text":"這也是行政院裡面提出版本喔"},{"start":1506.684,"end":1518.087,"text":"在立法院修正通過內政部現在已經補足了5億8千多萬的相關預算現在不僅僅是綠能我不能更是擺明的欺負原住民然後你又再講"},{"start":1519.588,"end":1543.817,"text":"任何增加新的預算要有新的財源我們來看一下105年禁法補償通過的時候的附帶決議說什麼如果需要提高禁法補償的金額必須要由開增碳稅來支應112年通過氣候變遷因應法我們的環境部按照這個法的第32條設立了溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":1548.359,"end":1564.205,"text":"您知道嗎 院長原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃的碳會的原住民金髮補償的私有林地同時呢 原民會也有11萬公頃的公有林地"},{"start":1565.474,"end":1580.65,"text":"溫室氣體管理基金這不就是財源嗎院長你知道最大的問題是什麼嗎是你根本視而不見甚至114年度的稅入稅出的剩餘是209億元你依舊視而不見"},{"start":1586.749,"end":1606.406,"text":"114年也就是明年度的預算總共多少3兆以上這樣子的行政團隊要告訴我的族人說24億我找不到財源真的實在是天大的笑話我講白了你不是讓原住民穿嬰兒鞋您是要讓原住民赤腳走路"},{"start":1607.093,"end":1621.264,"text":"我覺得這是赤裸裸的殖民思想賴政府是我從政23年來我看到最踐踏立法院最欺負原住民的獨裁政府"},{"start":1622.179,"end":1646.465,"text":"委員所說的完全不是事實我知道委員會把這一段質詢放在影片跟你的主人說但是你當中有很多斷章取義錯誤的立法院是公開透明的現在已經非常多人在看即時的轉播那我要報告委員我們的長照我們的健保我們的勞健保難道沒有用在原住民身上嗎有啊所以你剛剛的數字是覺得不對是啊"},{"start":1647.245,"end":1651.908,"text":"所以我現在要告訴我現在要告訴你我現在我沒有錯誤我沒有錯誤我告訴你們更離譜的是講什麼其他部會放在原住民的身上有178頁原住民是話外知名嗎"},{"start":1666.004,"end":1692.364,"text":"你們撲在原住民的道路上其他人難道不走嗎不要在這邊荒謬的亂講話了啦院長請你保持你的高度請你保持你的高度我現在對非常好非常好所以要一一全部要一視同仁所以不要把原住民當作話外之民所以立法院三讀通過"},{"start":1694.625,"end":1716.455,"text":"總統公告的法律院請你守法有這麼困難嗎最後最後最後最後我要用德國牧師尼莫勒的一首詩作為我今天總質詢的結束當納稅逮捕共產黨人的時候我保持沉默我又不是共產黨人"},{"start":1718.777,"end":1742.674,"text":"當他們關押社民黨人的時候我保持沉默我又不是社民黨人當他們逮捕工會人員的時候我保持沉默我又不是工會的人員當他們逮捕我的時候已經沒有人能為我說話了我含著眼淚哽咽地在這邊告訴你"},{"start":1744.963,"end":1773.679,"text":"我非常感謝民眾黨團、國民黨團能夠頂住你們的胡說八道能夠頂住所謂側翼的攻擊還在這裡捍衛立法委員的尊嚴捍衛台灣的民主法治所以我要講的是現在民進黨在這裡膽敢欺負台灣的主人您剛剛說的原住民族"},{"start":1774.693,"end":1775.434,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1790.896,"end":1798.241,"text":"讓我們一起來堅定 捍衛民主法治 拒絕獨裁謝謝謝謝高金委員發言會"},{"start":1817.529,"end":1820.282,"text":"上午質詢到此為止本次會議"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:34:50.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:34:53.340000+08:00","text":"謝謝江主席，有請卓院長還有曾主委。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T11:34:54.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:34:59.285000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢，還有原民會主委。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:34:59.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:00.757750+08:00","text":"高金委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:00.757750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:02.230500+08:00","text":"卓院長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:02.230500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:03.703250+08:00","text":"剛剛我在這邊聽到廖先翔委員對院長您質詢的時候，院長回應他說立法院要三讀通過的法律，必須先要和行政院協商，您才能接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:03.703250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:05.176000+08:00","text":"您知道您這是在侵犯立法院的職權，這不是獨裁，什麼是獨裁呢？院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:05.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:05.516000+08:00","text":"能夠在這裡講話就不是獨裁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:32.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:33.651000+08:00","text":"您剛剛的回應是獨裁。不是。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:34.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:42.294000+08:00","text":"我們這裡是民主殿堂，所有在這邊選出來的立法委員都是代表民意，多數決就是民主好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:42.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:35:50.577000+08:00","text":"我現在回到我30分鐘的質詢，院長，我們來看一下一段影片，這是你的備詢、你說的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:35:50.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:36:04.651000+08:00","text":"（播放影片）好。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:36:04.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:36:14.518000+08:00","text":"院長，我看您的備詢，我深深覺得你對原住民權益的漠視，甚至我可以說你是帶著殖民思維。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:36:14.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:36:35.268000+08:00","text":"我還記得上次6月7日總質詢，我在這邊跟你的對話，你總是提到禁伐補償是政府對原住民的照顧，所以編列4萬元是可以的，編列6萬元算太多，你這樣子的說法，我並不意外。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:36:36.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:36:46.772000+08:00","text":"院長，我在這邊提醒，你應該非常清楚，因為你是法律系畢業的，「照顧」這兩個字是政府的援助；「補償」是對於政府合法行為造成人民權利的損害所作為的補償措施，這兩個的性質是完全不一樣的，所以院長知道嗎？","quality":0.435},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:36:46.772000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:36:49.629000+08:00","text":"禁伐補償是針對什麼樣的損害做補償的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:36:49.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:37:18.768000+08:00","text":"我們在行動101策略當中，我們說現在行政院兩項大的政策就是照顧跟發展，照顧……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:37:18.768000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:37:19.768000+08:00","text":"我問你的是，禁伐補償是針對什麼的損害做補償？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:37:19.768000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:37:20.768000+08:00","text":"剛剛我已經告訴你照顧是什麼意思、在法律上補償是什麼意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:37:20.768000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:37:21.768000+08:00","text":"好了，沒關係啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:37:20.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:38:31.034000+08:00","text":"我就回答你好了，原住民保留地禁伐補償是補償原住民在憲法上的生存權，還有財產權的損害，因為政府禁止原住民使用我們民族已經開墾在這塊土地上開墾千年以上的土地，我們現在的政府對我們族人沒有辦法再度的農耕維生，而我們的補償額度僅僅只能夠維持最基本的生計，我們的政府用法律、用最強烈的手段剝奪掉了我們原住民的生存權，我們不卑不亢，我們僅僅要求最低限度的補償，這會太過分嗎？院長？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:38:31.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:38:33.195000+08:00","text":"您休息一下，我接著要問一下曾主委。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:38:33.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:38:48.068000+08:00","text":"曾主委，我請問一下，行政院或者民進黨一直不斷的對外放話，說禁伐補償這個法律是違憲的，你是不是認同？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:38:49.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:38:55.151000+08:00","text":"禁伐補償是因為限制了原住民使用自己的土地，這是一種補償。對啊！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:38:56.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:38:57.732000+08:00","text":"我問你啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:38:57.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:05.255000+08:00","text":"民進黨團還有一些人對外放話，說原住民禁伐補償是違憲，你是不是認同這句話？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:05.255000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:09.061400+08:00","text":"我沒有認同啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:09.061400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:12.867800+08:00","text":"好，你不認同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:12.867800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:16.674200+08:00","text":"在這裡……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:16.674200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:20.480600+08:00","text":"這句話也不對，委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:20.480600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:24.287000+08:00","text":"在這裡，我要敬告行政院還有民進黨團，尤其是柯建銘委員，如果你們堅持是違憲，請問一下，蔡英文執政8年的期間，禁伐補償是違憲嗎？","quality":0.278},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:24.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:33.837000+08:00","text":"還是你們覺得這一次的修法才是違憲，如果你們堅持這一次的修法是違憲，那就更可笑了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:34.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:36.299000+08:00","text":"院長，你說4萬元是合憲，6萬元是違憲，我還是想請問一下，6萬元真的很多嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:36.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:37.299000+08:00","text":"因為委員沒有搞清楚，我們沒有說禁伐補償是違憲，是用這種……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:37.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:38.299000+08:00","text":"我說的是柯建銘委員。他有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:38.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:39.299000+08:00","text":"你沒看到新聞嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:39.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:40.299000+08:00","text":"你再放一次剛剛那個圖片。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:40.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:41.299000+08:00","text":"你沒看到新聞嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:41.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:42.299000+08:00","text":"他有說「調升」兩個字。好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:42.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:43.299000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:43.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:39:44.299000+08:00","text":"你故意漏掉「調升」兩個字，對柯委員是不公平的。好！好！好！OK！調升。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:39:42.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:22.668000+08:00","text":"我們看一下、我們看一下，政府為了照顧老年的農民生活，沒有任何的條件之下，我們的農民每個月就可以領取8,110塊，每年是9萬7,320塊。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:40:22.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:33.818000+08:00","text":"而我們原住民被限制了我們用來謀生的土地，即便我們的這次修法之後，平均每個月我們才可以領到5,000塊。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:40:35.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:43.324000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，113年全國最低的生活費，每個月是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:40:44.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:53.271000+08:00","text":"1萬4,230，我們原住民僅僅要求這個金額的三分之一，居然還被院長您嫌多啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:40:53.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:54.111000+08:00","text":"我不理解！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:40:54.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:55.893000+08:00","text":"我的族人更不理解！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:40:56.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:40:59.175000+08:00","text":"院長，您可以休息一下，我要請教主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:41:00.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:41:26.003000+08:00","text":"主委，主計長9月25號來到我辦公室，跟我說明是主委你沒有積極爭取，才導致禁伐補償沒有編足，9月25號到現在已經10月8號了，你根本沒有跟任何一個人或者是對外來溝通說明，9月25號到現在10月8號，這當中你還去哪裡？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:41:26.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:41:33.937000+08:00","text":"去帛琉玩了好幾天，可見你在這邊是準備充足，覺得可以籌足我們相關的預算，對嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:41:34.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:41:40.829000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，第一個，每一個特別是我們原住民的立委，我們每一個立委都有去說明過了，還有我去帛琉不是去玩，也是希望在外交上，原住民能夠扮演一定的角色。","quality":0.515},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:41:40.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:41:42.076000+08:00","text":"非常好，主委，我就是等你回應這句話，你說是奉總統之命。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:41:42.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:41:43.417000+08:00","text":"你知道帛琉的國慶日是10月1號吧？對。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:00.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:01.808000+08:00","text":"你是幾號去的？26號。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:04.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:14.054000+08:00","text":"26號你就去了，你躲避了禮拜五在這邊的總質詢，而我幫你查過了，禮拜六是可以有飛帛琉的班機啊！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:14.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:16.375000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:16.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:26.180000+08:00","text":"26號到1號還有那麼多的時間，更何況你前面的副主委也跟你一起去啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:26.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:29.622000+08:00","text":"主委，你不要在這邊再拿這個來做搪塞。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:29.622000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:31.122000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:31.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:47.231000+08:00","text":"我現在先請教主委，原民會單位的預算，是不是僅僅編列4萬塊的額度，而剩餘的2萬塊額度，你是不是準備要從原住民綜合發展基金中來編列？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:48.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:42:56.360000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個預算一下子從3萬變6萬，當然我們預算是沒有辦法一時來做……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:42:56.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:06.746000+08:00","text":"我沒有問你這個，我是說這個不足的2萬塊，你是不是要從原住民的綜合發展基金裡面來挪用，是嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:06.746000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:07.746000+08:00","text":"要讓原住民的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:06.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:08.207000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:08.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:10.308000+08:00","text":"所以當然要用基金來做支應。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:11.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:16.933000+08:00","text":"既然這樣，我就問你最基本的問題，你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據是什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:18.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:19.413000+08:00","text":"法源依據，它主要也是……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:19.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:19.553000+08:00","text":"法源依據是什麼？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:19.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:21.674000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你不要浪費我的時間，我給你答案，你照唸一遍就好。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:21.674000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:22.674000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實這個基金……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:21.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:24.375000+08:00","text":"預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，凡經過付出仍可收回的，不是用於營業者，為作業基金。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:24.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:24.615000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:24.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:25.515000+08:00","text":"基金可以作為什麼用途？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:25.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:49.068000+08:00","text":"但是我們這個基金……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:49.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:50.908000+08:00","text":"可以作為什麼用途？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:52.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:54.169000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你不知道，也給你答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:54.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:43:55.549000+08:00","text":"我們本來這個基金就可以來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:43:55.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:16.773000+08:00","text":"來看一下它可以作什麼用途，你唸一下，原住民族基本法第十八條，辦理原住民經濟發展業務、輔導事業機構、住宅之興辦、租售、建購以及修繕業務，這是我們基金可以做的，有哪一個有講到禁伐補償？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:18.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:26.773000+08:00","text":"主委，你連基金的法源依據還有用途能夠作為什麼都不知道，你是怎麼樣幫族人來把關這個預算？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:27.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:27.614000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:27.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:28.614000+08:00","text":"你不要再回答了，請院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:28.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:29.614000+08:00","text":"支應這個禁伐補償……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:28.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:29.195000+08:00","text":"你不要再回答了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:29.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:30.656000+08:00","text":"你連這兩個法律都不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:30.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:31.057000+08:00","text":"謝謝指教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:31.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:44:54.815000+08:00","text":"院長，6月份我在這裡對你的總質詢，你說修法過程當中就應該要合理的討論，而民進黨也提到，禁伐補償條例是在野黨多數暴力的產物，現在我來為您釐清一下整個修法的脈絡。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:44:56.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:45:27.085000+08:00","text":"這一屆第1會期我擔任內政的召委，就在4月17號內政跟經濟審查原住民保留地禁伐補償條例的聯席會議當中，你們的行政機關是這麼說的，我們來看一下法務部的報告「攸關原住民族權益保障，事涉主管機關與大院之職權與決定，本部敬表尊重」；農業部的報告說什麼呢？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:45:28.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:46:03.324000+08:00","text":"「研議提高禁伐補償金及擴大禁伐區域範圍，對於維護森林及自然保育資源有正面效益」；而你們的主計總處在備詢的時候更回答委員的質詢說「如果修法通過的話，其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出，……在編預算時會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關經費」。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:46:07.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:46:17.729000+08:00","text":"行政機關表達支持，不分黨派的立法委員也都提案，蘇巧慧委員甚至還提出什麼你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:46:17.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:46:42.853000+08:00","text":"提出禁伐補償金調到7萬塊，她也樂觀其成，這些所有的會議紀錄都是可以查詢的，審查結論甚至還從善如流地按照民進黨立法委員伍麗華委員提出的額度通過，這難道是多數暴力嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:46:42.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:04.922000+08:00","text":"5月2號的政黨協商裡，大家對於禁伐補償增加到6萬塊也都表達贊同，而這些民進黨立法委員的連署還有委員當時的發言都是贊成修法的，這難道也是在野黨的多數暴力嗎？好啦！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:05.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:06.183000+08:00","text":"即便在6月24號總統公布了，院長，行政院你們都沒有提出覆議案啊！","quality":0.346},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:06.183000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:07.314667+08:00","text":"這代表什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:07.314667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:08.446333+08:00","text":"根本沒有窒礙難行之處，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:08.446333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:09.578000+08:00","text":"所以現在有窒礙難行是你的決定，還是總統的公布根本就不算數？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:09.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:11.079000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員剛剛這一段的陳述，證明這不是黨派問題。對。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:11.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:32.595000+08:00","text":"朝野立委……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:32.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:39.077000+08:00","text":"它不是黨派問題、不是顏色問題，而是守不守法的問題、是非對錯的問題。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:39.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:42.758000+08:00","text":"這是立法、行政兩院院際分立的問題。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:42.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:48.539000+08:00","text":"行政院制定編列預算，立法院審議預算，制定編列的權限是在行政院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:48.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:51.740000+08:00","text":"立法委員的權限也可以提案啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:51.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:52.780000+08:00","text":"在提案中增加預算就是不行。好啦！好啦！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:52.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:53.840000+08:00","text":"院長，院長，我提醒你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:53.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:54.840000+08:00","text":"剛剛你的陳述中漏了最重要的一段……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:47:53.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:47:55.461000+08:00","text":"我提醒你，你在這邊的言論……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:00.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:02.063000+08:00","text":"委員，你經常把最重要的那一段漏掉……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:02.063000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:03.063000+08:00","text":"我提醒你，做好良好的示範，您在這裡的言論都會被公告的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:02.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:02.443000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:02.443000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:03.443000+08:00","text":"而且希望你做最好的示範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:02.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:04.944000+08:00","text":"所以委員都漏掉最重要的那一段，造成人民的誤解，這是經年累月下來的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:04.944000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:12.708000+08:00","text":"我沒有誤解啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:12.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:20.472000+08:00","text":"是你說的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:20.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:27.936000+08:00","text":"立法跟行政院要互相尊重，對我們的分際如果有任何意見的話……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:27.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:28.936000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，所以我們在最後提出4萬……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:27.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:38.902000+08:00","text":"如果意見不同的話，立法院是多數決，只要是經過民主議程表決通過的，就是法律。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:38.902000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:39.902000+08:00","text":"委員，如果你提12萬，我也要接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:39.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:40.844000+08:00","text":"院長，提不提覆議案……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:40.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:41.844000+08:00","text":"你說什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:41.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:42.844000+08:00","text":"明年如果你提12萬，行政院也要接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:42.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:43.844000+08:00","text":"你這個是胡說八道啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:43.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:44.844000+08:00","text":"我胡說八道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:44.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:48:45.844000+08:00","text":"那這次為什麼要這麼做呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:48:40.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:49:08.508000+08:00","text":"提不提覆議案是你行政院決定的，也是你的法定職權，你剛剛的一派胡言真的有失你作為一個行政院長的高度。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:49:08.508000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:49:10.629000+08:00","text":"我希望透過其他方式來協調。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:49:10.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:49:26.157000+08:00","text":"我再說一次，在整個立法當中，行政機關的正面看法，還有民進黨委員在審查時的支持我們都可以看到它的必要性跟合理性，目前唯一阻擋的就是說話不算話的賴皮政府。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:49:26.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:49:30.619000+08:00","text":"三讀通過、總統公布的法律，院長你知道嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:49:30.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:49:41.725000+08:00","text":"你是第一個公然違抗總統的行政院，我剛剛都已經說了，過程是非常合法的，也沒有所謂的多數暴力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:49:42.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:49:48.563000+08:00","text":"我現在請教一下原民會，原民會主委，你的任務是不是包含要捍衛原民會的預算，對嗎？是。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:49:49.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:03.476000+08:00","text":"現在我從編列預算的過程裡面來請教你，原住民禁伐補償條例修正通過的時候，原民會是不是有向行政院提報52億元的需求經費，要編列在原民會的單位預算內，有沒有？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:04.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:04.987000+08:00","text":"我們希望是這樣子啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:05.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:06.468000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:06.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:15.534000+08:00","text":"也就是從一開始，你們原民會就知道經費應該要編列在原民會單位預算內，而不是在基金之內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:15.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:38.928000+08:00","text":"所需要的額度是52億元，原民會要52億，行政院只給你28億，短缺了24億，按照9月25日主計長到我辦公室說的，原民會應該要捍衛法律，立即發函給行政院，向行政院長爭取編列足額的經費。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:38.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:44.531000+08:00","text":"請問一下，主委，原民會現在有再一次向行政院爭取嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:44.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:45.131000+08:00","text":"有還是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:45.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:47.733000+08:00","text":"我們一直都跟主計總處拜託……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:47.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:53.956000+08:00","text":"有沒有再發函給我們行政院長，說你還要爭取不足的部分，有沒有？有。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:54.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:50:56.037000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:50:56.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:11.212000+08:00","text":"我現在要再問你，如果你要從原住民族綜合發展基金撥付的話，我現在就從基金的基本使用再問你，你知道原住民族綜合發展基金的法源依據嗎？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:11.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:12.713000+08:00","text":"剛剛已經問過你了，你現在再回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:13.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:13.814000+08:00","text":"對，我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:14.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:15.794000+08:00","text":"知道，是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:15.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:19.676000+08:00","text":"就是目前原住民族綜發基金的狀況，我瞭解。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:20.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:23.117000+08:00","text":"不是狀況，我說法源依據，剛剛已經問過你了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:23.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:24.918000+08:00","text":"助理，再給他一次答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:25.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:25.598000+08:00","text":"有，就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:26.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:29.580000+08:00","text":"作業基金凡經付出仍可回收，對不對？對。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:29.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:30.580000+08:00","text":"好，這句話是什麼意思？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:30.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:31.580000+08:00","text":"講簡單一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:31.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:32.580000+08:00","text":"就貸出去，可以收回來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:32.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:33.580000+08:00","text":"好，很好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:30.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:36.478000+08:00","text":"原住民族綜合發展基金有哪一些業務是屬於付出，然後可以收回的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:44.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:45.271000+08:00","text":"比如原住民的貸款。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:45.271000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:50.563000+08:00","text":"講得很好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:50.563000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:51:55.855000+08:00","text":"你終於已經進入到軌道了，我在這裡舉一個最基本的例子，就是原住民的貸款，我們原住民的貸款或者是信用保證、族人經常在原民會裡面申請的微笑貸款，對吧！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:51:55.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:01.147000+08:00","text":"幾乎都是年輕人在用的，這個就是可付出要收回的，也就是族人跟基金借錢必須要還的，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:01.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:06.439000+08:00","text":"好，請問一下，禁伐補償發給族人之後，他還要償還嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:06.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:09.321000+08:00","text":"發給族人之後，有不足的地方，就是不足的地方，我們會請求……","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:09.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:09.802000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:09.802000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:22.571000+08:00","text":"我們會請求……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:22.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:22.931000+08:00","text":"6萬塊發給族人，族人拿了這個6萬塊還要還給你的基金嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:22.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:23.432000+08:00","text":"不是，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:23.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:26.714000+08:00","text":"他就拿走，放在口袋了，請問一下，這有符合基金要可付出仍可收回的性質嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:26.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:27.414000+08:00","text":"既然我們禁伐補償出去了，他是不用償還的，這是代表什麼？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:27.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:33.633000+08:00","text":"代表原民會的綜合發展基金是不可以這麼用的，因為會怎麼樣，你知道嗎？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:33.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:39.852000+08:00","text":"這會讓基金負債，更會讓我們的基金破產，知道吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:39.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:46.071000+08:00","text":"委員，跟你報告，歷年來都是這樣子，都是預算和基金……","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:46.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:52.290000+08:00","text":"你不能夠講歷年來，歷年來我已經講過了，原民會都在違法，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:52.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:52:58.509000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我再問你三個更簡單的問題好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:52:58.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:01.911000+08:00","text":"第一個，你跟行政院要52億，行政院給你28億，還少了24億，主委，你說基金仍然有17億可以調動……對。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:01.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:02.131000+08:00","text":"24減17是多少？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:27.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:33.360000+08:00","text":"7億，答案給你，不足的部分，請問你要怎麼補？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:33.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:33.940000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:34.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:34.901000+08:00","text":"不用講了，我知道你也說……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:35.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:35.802000+08:00","text":"我們要精算……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:36.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:48.116000+08:00","text":"你也說不了什麼，你看一下，這是你原民會今年給我的基金預算書，明年（114年度）你的基金只剩下10億可以用，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:48.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:53:57.628000+08:00","text":"第二個，我再問你，這17億經費裡面，你說要從綜合發展基金出去，而且你說你要編17億，是不是包含明年微笑貸款的額度？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:53:58.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:06.775000+08:00","text":"所以當微笑貸款的經費全部都放在禁伐補償上，難道明年度的微笑貸款就不辦了嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:06.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:08.076000+08:00","text":"這個你必須跟族人說清楚喔！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:08.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:17.467000+08:00","text":"委員，我跟你講，這個不會影響，我跟委員講，禁伐補償最快也是明年的這個時候才發放……","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:17.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:22.469000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你講的是114年度的綜合發展基金，你在講什麼啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:22.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:24.850000+08:00","text":"主委，你到底有沒有進入狀況……","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:25.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:26.511000+08:00","text":"從整個基金……好啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:27.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:48.779000+08:00","text":"第三個，再問你更簡單的問題，如果你真的要違法用基金撥付禁伐補償的費用，按照你說的基金有17億可以用，但是你的預算書非常的清楚說，明年（也就是114年）你們的綜合發展基金短絀多少，你知道嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:48.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:49.779000+08:00","text":"不知道，好，告訴你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:48.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:48.779000+08:00","text":"六十七億多。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:49.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:50.799000+08:00","text":"你就知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:51.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:54:52.360000+08:00","text":"短絀，已經快破產了。是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:54:54.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:05.963000+08:00","text":"主委，我真的覺得你滿離譜的，尤其是在今年第一屆新竹縣原住民運動會上面，你跟廣大的大眾說什麼？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:05.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:08.638000+08:00","text":"我們原住民是人也是鬼，請問一下主委……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:08.638000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:09.638000+08:00","text":"這是斷章取義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:08.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:09.219000+08:00","text":"請問一下你現在是人還是鬼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:09.219000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:10.219000+08:00","text":"我跟委員講為什麼講是人是鬼，每年7、8月我們辦收穫祭、豐年祭……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:09.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:10.521000+08:00","text":"你現在是人還是鬼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:10.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:11.783000+08:00","text":"你現在是人還是鬼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:23.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:31.786000+08:00","text":"我更記得上個會期你在業務報告裡面跟我說，你說爭取原民會的預算是主委很重要的業務。是。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:31.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:42.548000+08:00","text":"可是我發現你不敢向行政院爭取經費，基金是什麼你也搞不清楚……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:42.548000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:43.548000+08:00","text":"我爭取的預算是有原民會以來歷年來最高的，今年123億。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:43.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:45.449000+08:00","text":"可是它給你足夠了嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:45.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:45.909000+08:00","text":"還不夠啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:46.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:53.852000+08:00","text":"然後基金是什麼你也搞不清楚，基金現在面臨破產了你也不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:54.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:55:58.293000+08:00","text":"主委，你是要做怎麼樣一個盡責的主委？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:55:59.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:03.455000+08:00","text":"你說禁伐補償明年會如期發，你相信你自己說的話嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:03.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:05.036000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，我是不相信啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:05.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:12.698000+08:00","text":"除了你睜眼說瞎話之外，我們來看一下，審查禁伐補償條例的時候，法務部說什麼？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:12.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:13.439000+08:00","text":"會尊重立法院的權責。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:14.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:16.240000+08:00","text":"農業部說什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:16.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:17.860000+08:00","text":"對國土保育有正面的效益。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:18.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:20.622000+08:00","text":"主計總處更說什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:21.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:23.363000+08:00","text":"它說會依法編列。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:24.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:25.124000+08:00","text":"不到兩個月喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:26.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:56:32.347000+08:00","text":"你們現在告訴我們編列預算有困難，真的是讓我們的族人怎麼相信你們民進黨的鬼話？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:56:33.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:57:00.647000+08:00","text":"立法程序我們有充分的溝通，院長說，他只能先給4萬塊，甚至只願意給4萬塊，然後我剛剛舉了這麼多的例子告訴你，我們的基金也確實沒有辦法挪用到撥付禁伐補償，不管是它即將破產或是它的法律，可是行政院你們真的還是要硬幹啊！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:57:00.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:57:01.647000+08:00","text":"院長，我也幫你整理了你最近對外的發表，我們看一下院長講的，你說用原民會40%預算去做單一補助是不合理的，這是陳瑩質詢的時候你說的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:57:01.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:57:24.940000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，這個論點唯一成立的前提是原民會的預算是給足的。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:57:25.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:58:00.384000+08:00","text":"按照原住民的人口來計算，我們原住民人口數占現在全國總人口數2.59%，應該要有811億的預算，而我們現在只分配到0.39%，也就是122億，即使再加上民進黨你們不斷的對外講，其他部會用在原住民身上的，我也幫你整合了，也只有178億，這兩個加起來是300億，連811億的一半都不到。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:58:01.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:58:23.293000+08:00","text":"我再告訴你一個實情，原住民族地區行政單位的層級只有鄉鎮市區的層級，他們根本也沒有辦法分配所謂的專屬的統籌分配稅款，原住民地區的鄉鎮市區僅僅只能夠依靠原民會的補助款生存。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:58:24.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:58:30.340000+08:00","text":"院長，你給原住民、原民會穿小鞋也就罷了，我認為這雙鞋還是嬰兒鞋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:58:31.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:58:32.722000+08:00","text":"你對外還有說什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:58:32.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:05.290000+08:00","text":"立法院不能夠以增加預算的方式來通過法案，但是你看一下你們的柯總召，在96年他曾經提出老年農民福利津貼暫行條例的修正案，要求老農津貼從每個月5,000塊調高到6,000塊，然後又在100年的時候再次以民進黨團提修正案，從每個月的6,000塊調到7,000塊，我們可以看到，他每一次的修正支出將近90億。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:05.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:16.225000+08:00","text":"請問民進黨可以，高金素梅在這邊提案，而且是按照民主程序三讀、總統公布的法律，你就不通過……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:16.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:17.225000+08:00","text":"不是民進黨可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:17.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:18.225000+08:00","text":"這不是標準的「綠能，我不能」嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:18.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:19.225000+08:00","text":"不是民進黨可以，你不可以，這種提案都經過行政院同意……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:19.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:20.225000+08:00","text":"還沒、還沒，我會有時間跟你說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:17.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:59:54.944000+08:00","text":"我再舉一個例子，從與禁伐補償條例同一天三讀通過的「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」來看，這也是行政院沒有提出版本，在立法院修正通過，內政部現在已經編足了五億八千多萬的相關預算，現在不僅僅是「綠能，我不能」，更是擺明的欺負原住民。","quality":0.518},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T11:59:55.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:00:00.269000+08:00","text":"然後你又在講，任何增加新的預算要有新的財源。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:00:00.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:00:14.474000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下105年禁伐補償通過的時候的附帶決議說什麼，如果需要提高禁伐補償的金額，必須要由開徵碳稅來支應。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:00:14.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:00:26.919000+08:00","text":"112年通過氣候變遷因應法，我們的環境部按照這個法的第三十二條設立了溫室氣體管理基金，院長，您知道嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:00:27.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:00:48.119000+08:00","text":"原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃碳匯的原住民禁伐補償的私有林地，同時，原民會也有11萬公頃的公有林地，溫室氣體管理基金不就是財源嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:00:48.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:00:50.422000+08:00","text":"院長，你知道最大的問題是什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:00:50.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:00:58.650000+08:00","text":"是你根本視而不見，甚至114年度歲入歲出的賸餘是209億元，你依舊視而不見。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:04.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:01:07.711000+08:00","text":"114年，也就是明年度的預算，總共多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:08.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:01:18.160000+08:00","text":"3兆以上，這樣子的行政團隊要告訴我的族人說，24億我找不到財源，實在是天大的笑話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:18.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:01:27.375000+08:00","text":"我講白了，你不是讓原住民穿嬰兒鞋，你是要讓原住民赤腳走路，我覺得這是赤裸裸的殖民思想。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:28.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:01:39.244000+08:00","text":"賴政府是我從政23年來看過最踐踏立法院、最欺負原住民的獨裁政府！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:40.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:01:48.781000+08:00","text":"委員所說的完全不是事實，我知道委員會把這一段質詢放在影片跟你的族人說，但是你當中有很多斷章取義，錯誤的……","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:48.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:01:56.043000+08:00","text":"大家都會看得到，立法院是公開透明的，現在已經非常多人在看即時的轉播。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:01:56.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:02.344000+08:00","text":"那我要報告委員，我們的長照、我們的健保、我們的勞健保難道沒有用在原住民身上嗎？有啊！有啊！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:02.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:04.445000+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛的數字是絕對不對的。是啊！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:05.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:05.725000+08:00","text":"所以我現在要告訴你……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:05.725000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.725000+08:00","text":"所以你不要用錯誤的數字……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.426000+08:00","text":"我沒有錯誤！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:07.426000+08:00","text":"來襯托你的想法，那是錯上加錯，故意扭曲。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.586000+08:00","text":"我沒有錯誤！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:06.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:09.908000+08:00","text":"我告訴你們更離譜的是講什麼，其他部會放在原住民的身上有178億，原住民是化外之民嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:24.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:28.447000+08:00","text":"你們鋪在原住民的道路上，其他人難道不走嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:28.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:30.709000+08:00","text":"不要在這邊荒謬的亂講話了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:30.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:31.709000+08:00","text":"我跟委員不同的是，我們都是同一個國家的國民……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:31.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:36.253000+08:00","text":"院長，請你保持你的高度！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:36.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:39.416000+08:00","text":"我現在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:39.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:40.416000+08:00","text":"我的高度就是我們都是同一個國家的國民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:39.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:44.479000+08:00","text":"對，非常好、非常好，所以全部要一視同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:44.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:45.780000+08:00","text":"委員，你還記得你的選舉嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:45.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:56.827000+08:00","text":"所以不要把原住民當作化外之民，所以立法院三讀通過、總統公告的法令，請你守法有這麼困難嗎？最後……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:56.827000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:02:59.388000+08:00","text":"守法是行政院的必要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:02:59.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:03:37.472000+08:00","text":"最後，我要用德國牧師尼莫勒的一首詩作為我今天總質詢的結束：「當納粹逮捕共產黨人的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是共產黨人；當他們關押社民黨人的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是社民黨人；當他們逮捕工會人員的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是工會人員；當他們逮捕我的時候，已經沒有人能為我說話了。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:03:38.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:02.434000+08:00","text":"」我含著眼淚哽咽的在這邊告訴你們：我非常感謝民眾黨團、國民黨團能夠頂住你們的胡說八道，能夠頂住所謂側翼的攻擊，還在這裡捍衛立法委員的尊嚴，捍衛臺灣的民主法治。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:03.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:13.394000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是，現在民進黨在這裡膽敢欺負臺灣的主人──您剛剛說的原住民族，如果再沒有任何一個人出來說話的話，接下來會不會就是老師、警察、軍人，甚至所有的國民？","quality":0.486},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:13.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:18.561333+08:00","text":"在這裡我要跟我親愛的族人說，我也要跟全國人民說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:18.561333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:23.728667+08:00","text":"委員，不要危言聳聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:23.728667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:28.896000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:28.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:35.801000+08:00","text":"讓我們一起來堅定、捍衛民主法治，拒絕獨裁！謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:35.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:36.801000+08:00","text":"共產黨人的一句話：為人民服務，是委員選舉的口號，你的人民不能只有原住民，沒有全國的人民，你要真正的為人民服務。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:35.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:36.221000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝高金委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:36.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T12:04:57.499000+08:00","text":"報告院會，上午質詢到此為止。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T12:04:57.999000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:05:05.141857+08:00","text":"本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","quality":0.16},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T12:05:05.441857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:05:10.013286+08:00","text":"下午2時30分繼續開會，進行內政組之質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T12:05:10.313286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:05:11.456143+08:00","text":"現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T12:05:11.756143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T12:05:12.899000+08:00","text":"休息（12時5分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:38 - 12:04:59","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時34分）謝謝江主席，有請卓院長還有曾主委。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢，還有原民會主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：卓院長好。剛剛我在這邊聽到廖先翔委員對院長您質詢的時候，院長回應他說立法院要三讀通過的法律，必須先要和行政院協商，您才能接受。您知道您這是在侵犯立法院的職權，這不是獨裁，什麼是獨裁呢？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠在這裡講話就不是獨裁。"],["高金委員素梅：您剛剛的回應是獨裁。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["高金委員素梅：我們這裡是民主殿堂，所有在這邊選出來的立法委員都是代表民意，多數決就是民主好嗎？我現在回到我30分鐘的質詢，院長，我們來看一下一段影片，這是你的備詢、你說的話。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：好。院長，我看您的備詢，我深深覺得你對原住民權益的漠視，甚至我可以說你是帶著殖民思維。我還記得上次6月7日總質詢，我在這邊跟你的對話，你總是提到禁伐補償是政府對原住民的照顧，所以編列4萬元是可以的，編列6萬元算太多，你這樣子的說法，我並不意外。院長，我在這邊提醒，你應該非常清楚，因為你是法律系畢業的，「照顧」這兩個字是政府的援助；「補償」是對於政府合法行為造成人民權利的損害所作為的補償措施，這兩個的性質是完全不一樣的，所以院長知道嗎？禁伐補償是針對什麼樣的損害做補償的呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在行動101策略當中，我們說現在行政院兩項大的政策就是照顧跟發展，照顧……"],["高金委員素梅：我問你的是，禁伐補償是針對什麼的損害做補償？剛剛我已經告訴你照顧是什麼意思、在法律上補償是什麼意思。好了，沒關係啦！我就回答你好了，原住民保留地禁伐補償是補償原住民在憲法上的生存權，還有財產權的損害，因為政府禁止原住民使用我們民族已經開墾在這塊土地上開墾千年以上的土地，我們現在的政府對我們族人沒有辦法再度的農耕維生，而我們的補償額度僅僅只能夠維持最基本的生計，我們的政府用法律、用最強烈的手段剝奪掉了我們原住民的生存權，我們不卑不亢，我們僅僅要求最低限度的補償，這會太過分嗎？院長？您休息一下，我接著要問一下曾主委。曾主委，我請問一下，行政院或者民進黨一直不斷的對外放話，說禁伐補償這個法律是違憲的，你是不是認同？"],["曾主任委員智勇：禁伐補償是因為限制了原住民使用自己的土地，這是一種補償。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！我問你啦！民進黨團還有一些人對外放話，說原住民禁伐補償是違憲，你是不是認同這句話？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有認同啊！"],["高金委員素梅：好，你不認同。在這裡……"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話也不對，委員……"],["高金委員素梅：在這裡，我要敬告行政院還有民進黨團，尤其是柯建銘委員，如果你們堅持是違憲，請問一下，蔡英文執政8年的期間，禁伐補償是違憲嗎？還是你們覺得這一次的修法才是違憲，如果你們堅持這一次的修法是違憲，那就更可笑了！院長，你說4萬元是合憲，6萬元是違憲，我還是想請問一下，6萬元真的很多嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員沒有搞清楚，我們沒有說禁伐補償是違憲，是用這種……"],["高金委員素梅：我說的是柯建銘委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：他有……"],["高金委員素梅：你沒看到新聞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你再放一次剛剛那個圖片。"],["高金委員素梅：你沒看到新聞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他有說「調升」兩個字。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！我現在跟你說……"],["卓院長榮泰：你故意漏掉「調升」兩個字，對柯委員是不公平的。"],["高金委員素梅：好！好！好！OK！調升。我們看一下、我們看一下，政府為了照顧老年的農民生活，沒有任何的條件之下，我們的農民每個月就可以領取8,110塊，每年是9萬7,320塊。而我們原住民被限制了我們用來謀生的土地，即便我們的這次修法之後，平均每個月我們才可以領到5,000塊。我們來看一下，113年全國最低的生活費，每個月是多少？1萬4,230，我們原住民僅僅要求這個金額的三分之一，居然還被院長您嫌多啊！我不理解！我的族人更不理解！院長，您可以休息一下，我要請教主委。","主委，主計長9月25號來到我辦公室，跟我說明是主委你沒有積極爭取，才導致禁伐補償沒有編足，9月25號到現在已經10月8號了，你根本沒有跟任何一個人或者是對外來溝通說明，9月25號到現在10月8號，這當中你還去哪裡？去帛琉玩了好幾天，可見你在這邊是準備充足，覺得可以籌足我們相關的預算，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，第一個，每一個特別是我們原住民的立委，我們每一個立委都有去說明過了，還有我去帛琉不是去玩，也是希望在外交上，原住民能夠扮演一定的角色。"],["高金委員素梅：非常好，主委，我就是等你回應這句話，你說是奉總統之命。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道帛琉的國慶日是10月1號吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：你是幾號去的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：26號。"],["高金委員素梅：26號你就去了，你躲避了禮拜五在這邊的總質詢，而我幫你查過了，禮拜六是可以有飛帛琉的班機啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：26號到1號還有那麼多的時間，更何況你前面的副主委也跟你一起去啊！主委，你不要在這邊再拿這個來做搪塞。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在先請教主委，原民會單位的預算，是不是僅僅編列4萬塊的額度，而剩餘的2萬塊額度，你是不是準備要從原住民綜合發展基金中來編列？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這個預算一下子從3萬變6萬，當然我們預算是沒有辦法一時來做……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有問你這個，我是說這個不足的2萬塊，你是不是要從原住民的綜合發展基金裡面來挪用，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：要讓原住民的……"],["高金委員素梅：是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：所以當然要用基金來做支應。"],["高金委員素梅：既然這樣，我就問你最基本的問題，你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據是什麼嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：法源依據，它主要也是……"],["高金委員素梅：法源依據是什麼？沒關係，你不要浪費我的時間，我給你答案，你照唸一遍就好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，其實這個基金……"],["高金委員素梅：預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，凡經過付出仍可收回的，不是用於營業者，為作業基金。對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。基金可以作為什麼用途？"],["曾主任委員智勇：但是我們這個基金……"],["高金委員素梅：可以作為什麼用途？沒關係，你不知道，也給你答案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們本來這個基金就可以來……"],["高金委員素梅：來看一下它可以作什麼用途，你唸一下，原住民族基本法第十八條，辦理原住民經濟發展業務、輔導事業機構、住宅之興辦、租售、建購以及修繕業務，這是我們基金可以做的，有哪一個有講到禁伐補償？主委，你連基金的法源依據還有用途能夠作為什麼都不知道，你是怎麼樣幫族人來把關這個預算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再回答了，請院長。"],["曾主任委員智勇：支應這個禁伐補償……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再回答了！你連這兩個法律都不知道！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝指教。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，6月份我在這裡對你的總質詢，你說修法過程當中就應該要合理的討論，而民進黨也提到，禁伐補償條例是在野黨多數暴力的產物，現在我來為您釐清一下整個修法的脈絡。這一屆第1會期我擔任內政的召委，就在4月17號內政跟經濟審查原住民保留地禁伐補償條例的聯席會議當中，你們的行政機關是這麼說的，我們來看一下法務部的報告「攸關原住民族權益保障，事涉主管機關與大院之職權與決定，本部敬表尊重」；農業部的報告說什麼呢？「研議提高禁伐補償金及擴大禁伐區域範圍，對於維護森林及自然保育資源有正面效益」；而你們的主計總處在備詢的時候更回答委員的質詢說「如果修法通過的話，其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出，……在編預算時會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關經費」。","行政機關表達支持，不分黨派的立法委員也都提案，蘇巧慧委員甚至還提出什麼你知道嗎？提出禁伐補償金調到7萬塊，她也樂觀其成，這些所有的會議紀錄都是可以查詢的，審查結論甚至還從善如流地按照民進黨立法委員伍麗華委員提出的額度通過，這難道是多數暴力嗎？5月2號的政黨協商裡，大家對於禁伐補償增加到6萬塊也都表達贊同，而這些民進黨立法委員的連署還有委員當時的發言都是贊成修法的，這難道也是在野黨的多數暴力嗎？好啦！即便在6月24號總統公布了，院長，行政院你們都沒有提出覆議案啊！這代表什麼？根本沒有窒礙難行之處，對不對？所以現在有窒礙難行是你的決定，還是總統的公布根本就不算數？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員剛剛這一段的陳述，證明這不是黨派問題。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野立委……"],["高金委員素梅：它不是黨派問題、不是顏色問題，而是守不守法的問題、是非對錯的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是立法、行政兩院院際分立的問題。行政院制定編列預算，立法院審議預算，制定編列的權限是在行政院。"],["高金委員素梅：立法委員的權限也可以提案啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：在提案中增加預算就是不行。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！好啦！院長，院長，我提醒你……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛你的陳述中漏了最重要的一段……"],["高金委員素梅：我提醒你，你在這邊的言論……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你經常把最重要的那一段漏掉……"],["高金委員素梅：我提醒你，做好良好的示範，您在這裡的言論都會被公告的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["高金委員素梅：而且希望你做最好的示範。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員都漏掉最重要的那一段，造成人民的誤解，這是經年累月下來的。"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有誤解啊！是你說的啊！立法跟行政院要互相尊重，對我們的分際如果有任何意見的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，所以我們在最後提出4萬……"],["高金委員素梅：如果意見不同的話，立法院是多數決，只要是經過民主議程表決通過的，就是法律。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，如果你提12萬，我也要接受嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：院長，提不提覆議案……","你說什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年如果你提12萬，行政院也要接受嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：你這個是胡說八道啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我胡說八道？那這次為什麼要這麼做呢？"],["高金委員素梅：提不提覆議案是你行政院決定的，也是你的法定職權，你剛剛的一派胡言真的有失你作為一個行政院長的高度。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望透過其他方式來協調。"],["高金委員素梅：我再說一次，在整個立法當中，行政機關的正面看法，還有民進黨委員在審查時的支持我們都可以看到它的必要性跟合理性，目前唯一阻擋的就是說話不算話的賴皮政府。三讀通過、總統公布的法律，院長你知道嗎？你是第一個公然違抗總統的行政院，我剛剛都已經說了，過程是非常合法的，也沒有所謂的多數暴力。","我現在請教一下原民會，原民會主委，你的任務是不是包含要捍衛原民會的預算，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：現在我從編列預算的過程裡面來請教你，原住民禁伐補償條例修正通過的時候，原民會是不是有向行政院提報52億元的需求經費，要編列在原民會的單位預算內，有沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望是這樣子啦！"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。也就是從一開始，你們原民會就知道經費應該要編列在原民會單位預算內，而不是在基金之內。所需要的額度是52億元，原民會要52億，行政院只給你28億，短缺了24億，按照9月25日主計長到我辦公室說的，原民會應該要捍衛法律，立即發函給行政院，向行政院長爭取編列足額的經費。請問一下，主委，原民會現在有再一次向行政院爭取嗎？有還是沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們一直都跟主計總處拜託……"],["高金委員素梅：有沒有再發函給我們行政院長，說你還要爭取不足的部分，有沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我現在要再問你，如果你要從原住民族綜合發展基金撥付的話，我現在就從基金的基本使用再問你，你知道原住民族綜合發展基金的法源依據嗎？剛剛已經問過你了，你現在再回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，我知道。"],["高金委員素梅：知道，是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是目前原住民族綜發基金的狀況，我瞭解。"],["高金委員素梅：不是狀況，我說法源依據，剛剛已經問過你了。助理，再給他一次答案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，就是……"],["高金委員素梅：作業基金凡經付出仍可回收，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這句話是什麼意思？講簡單一點。"],["曾主任委員智勇：就貸出去，可以收回來。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好！原住民族綜合發展基金有哪一些業務是屬於付出，然後可以收回的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：比如原住民的貸款。"],["高金委員素梅：講得很好！你終於已經進入到軌道了，我在這裡舉一個最基本的例子，就是原住民的貸款，我們原住民的貸款或者是信用保證、族人經常在原民會裡面申請的微笑貸款，對吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：幾乎都是年輕人在用的，這個就是可付出要收回的，也就是族人跟基金借錢必須要還的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問一下，禁伐補償發給族人之後，他還要償還嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：發給族人之後，有不足的地方，就是不足的地方，我們會請求……"],["高金委員素梅：不是啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會請求……"],["高金委員素梅：6萬塊發給族人，族人拿了這個6萬塊還要還給你的基金嗎？不是，對不對？他就拿走，放在口袋了，請問一下，這有符合基金要可付出仍可收回的性質嗎？既然我們禁伐補償出去了，他是不用償還的，這是代表什麼？代表原民會的綜合發展基金是不可以這麼用的，因為會怎麼樣，你知道嗎？這會讓基金負債，更會讓我們的基金破產，知道吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，跟你報告，歷年來都是這樣子，都是預算和基金……"],["高金委員素梅：你不能夠講歷年來，歷年來我已經講過了，原民會都在違法，好不好？謝謝，我再問你三個更簡單的問題好了。第一個，你跟行政院要52億，行政院給你28億，還少了24億，主委，你說基金仍然有17億可以調動……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：24減17是多少？7億，答案給你，不足的部分，請問你要怎麼補？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：不用講了，我知道你也說……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們要精算……"],["高金委員素梅：你也說不了什麼，你看一下，這是你原民會今年給我的基金預算書，明年（114年度）你的基金只剩下10億可以用，你知道嗎？第二個，我再問你，這17億經費裡面，你說要從綜合發展基金出去，而且你說你要編17億，是不是包含明年微笑貸款的額度？所以當微笑貸款的經費全部都放在禁伐補償上，難道明年度的微笑貸款就不辦了嗎？這個你必須跟族人說清楚喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我跟你講，這個不會影響，我跟委員講，禁伐補償最快也是明年的這個時候才發放……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在跟你講的是114年度的綜合發展基金，你在講什麼啊！主委，你到底有沒有進入狀況……"],["曾主任委員智勇：從整個基金……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！第三個，再問你更簡單的問題，如果你真的要違法用基金撥付禁伐補償的費用，按照你說的基金有17億可以用，但是你的預算書非常的清楚說，明年（也就是114年）你們的綜合發展基金短絀多少，你知道嗎？不知道，好，告訴你……"],["曾主任委員智勇：六十七億多。"],["高金委員素梅：你就知道啊！短絀，已經快破產了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，我真的覺得你滿離譜的，尤其是在今年第一屆新竹縣原住民運動會上面，你跟廣大的大眾說什麼？我們原住民是人也是鬼，請問一下主委……"],["曾主任委員智勇：這是斷章取義。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下你現在是人還是鬼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員講為什麼講是人是鬼，每年7、8月我們辦收穫祭、豐年祭……"],["高金委員素梅：你現在是人還是鬼？你現在是人還是鬼？我更記得上個會期你在業務報告裡面跟我說，你說爭取原民會的預算是主委很重要的業務。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：可是我發現你不敢向行政院爭取經費，基金是什麼你也搞不清楚……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我爭取的預算是有原民會以來歷年來最高的，今年123億。"],["高金委員素梅：可是它給你足夠了嗎？還不夠啊！然後基金是什麼你也搞不清楚，基金現在面臨破產了你也不知道。主委，你是要做怎麼樣一個盡責的主委？你說禁伐補償明年會如期發，你相信你自己說的話嗎？我告訴你，我是不相信啦！除了你睜眼說瞎話之外，我們來看一下，審查禁伐補償條例的時候，法務部說什麼？會尊重立法院的權責。農業部說什麼？對國土保育有正面的效益。主計總處更說什麼？它說會依法編列。不到兩個月喔！你們現在告訴我們編列預算有困難，真的是讓我們的族人怎麼相信你們民進黨的鬼話？立法程序我們有充分的溝通，院長說，他只能先給4萬塊，甚至只願意給4萬塊，然後我剛剛舉了這麼多的例子告訴你，我們的基金也確實沒有辦法挪用到撥付禁伐補償，不管是它即將破產或是它的法律，可是行政院你們真的還是要硬幹啊！","院長，我也幫你整理了你最近對外的發表，我們看一下院長講的，你說用原民會40%預算去做單一補助是不合理的，這是陳瑩質詢的時候你說的。我要講的是，這個論點唯一成立的前提是原民會的預算是給足的。按照原住民的人口來計算，我們原住民人口數占現在全國總人口數2.59%，應該要有811億的預算，而我們現在只分配到0.39%，也就是122億，即使再加上民進黨你們不斷的對外講，其他部會用在原住民身上的，我也幫你整合了，也只有178億，這兩個加起來是300億，連811億的一半都不到。","我再告訴你一個實情，原住民族地區行政單位的層級只有鄉鎮市區的層級，他們根本也沒有辦法分配所謂的專屬的統籌分配稅款，原住民地區的鄉鎮市區僅僅只能夠依靠原民會的補助款生存。院長，你給原住民、原民會穿小鞋也就罷了，我認為這雙鞋還是嬰兒鞋。你對外還有說什麼？立法院不能夠以增加預算的方式來通過法案，但是你看一下你們的柯總召，在96年他曾經提出老年農民福利津貼暫行條例的修正案，要求老農津貼從每個月5,000塊調高到6,000塊，然後又在100年的時候再次以民進黨團提修正案，從每個月的6,000塊調到7,000塊，我們可以看到，他每一次的修正支出將近90億。請問民進黨可以，高金素梅在這邊提案，而且是按照民主程序三讀、總統公布的法律，你就不通過……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是民進黨可以……"],["高金委員素梅：這不是標準的「綠能，我不能」嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是民進黨可以，你不可以，這種提案都經過行政院同意……"],["高金委員素梅：還沒、還沒，我會有時間跟你說。我再舉一個例子，從與禁伐補償條例同一天三讀通過的「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」來看，這也是行政院沒有提出版本，在立法院修正通過，內政部現在已經編足了五億八千多萬的相關預算，現在不僅僅是「綠能，我不能」，更是擺明的欺負原住民。然後你又在講，任何增加新的預算要有新的財源。我們來看一下105年禁伐補償通過的時候的附帶決議說什麼，如果需要提高禁伐補償的金額，必須要由開徵碳稅來支應。112年通過氣候變遷因應法，我們的環境部按照這個法的第三十二條設立了溫室氣體管理基金，院長，您知道嗎？原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃碳匯的原住民禁伐補償的私有林地，同時，原民會也有11萬公頃的公有林地，溫室氣體管理基金不就是財源嗎？院長，你知道最大的問題是什麼嗎？是你根本視而不見，甚至114年度歲入歲出的賸餘是209億元，你依舊視而不見。114年，也就是明年度的預算，總共多少？3兆以上，這樣子的行政團隊要告訴我的族人說，24億我找不到財源，實在是天大的笑話。我講白了，你不是讓原住民穿嬰兒鞋，你是要讓原住民赤腳走路，我覺得這是赤裸裸的殖民思想。賴政府是我從政23年來看過最踐踏立法院、最欺負原住民的獨裁政府！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所說的完全不是事實，我知道委員會把這一段質詢放在影片跟你的族人說，但是你當中有很多斷章取義，錯誤的……"],["高金委員素梅：大家都會看得到，立法院是公開透明的，現在已經非常多人在看即時的轉播。"],["卓院長榮泰：那我要報告委員，我們的長照、我們的健保、我們的勞健保難道沒有用在原住民身上嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊！所以你剛剛的數字是絕對不對的。"],["高金委員素梅：是啊！所以我現在要告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以你不要用錯誤的數字……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有錯誤！"],["卓院長榮泰：來襯托你的想法，那是錯上加錯，故意扭曲。"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有錯誤！我告訴你們更離譜的是講什麼，其他部會放在原住民的身上有178億，原住民是化外之民嗎？你們鋪在原住民的道路上，其他人難道不走嗎？不要在這邊荒謬的亂講話了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員不同的是，我們都是同一個國家的國民……"],["高金委員素梅：院長，請你保持你的高度！我現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的高度就是我們都是同一個國家的國民。"],["高金委員素梅：對，非常好、非常好，所以全部要一視同仁。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你還記得你的選舉嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：所以不要把原住民當作化外之民，所以立法院三讀通過、總統公告的法令，請你守法有這麼困難嗎？最後……"],["卓院長榮泰：守法是行政院的必要。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，我要用德國牧師尼莫勒的一首詩作為我今天總質詢的結束：「當納粹逮捕共產黨人的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是共產黨人；當他們關押社民黨人的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是社民黨人；當他們逮捕工會人員的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是工會人員；當他們逮捕我的時候，已經沒有人能為我說話了。」我含著眼淚哽咽的在這邊告訴你們：我非常感謝民眾黨團、國民黨團能夠頂住你們的胡說八道，能夠頂住所謂側翼的攻擊，還在這裡捍衛立法委員的尊嚴，捍衛臺灣的民主法治。所以我要講的是，現在民進黨在這裡膽敢欺負臺灣的主人──您剛剛說的原住民族，如果再沒有任何一個人出來說話的話，接下來會不會就是老師、警察、軍人，甚至所有的國民？在這裡我要跟我親愛的族人說，我也要跟全國人民說……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，不要危言聳聽。報告委員……"],["高金委員素梅：讓我們一起來堅定、捍衛民主法治，拒絕獨裁！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：共產黨人的一句話：為人民服務，是委員選舉的口號，你的人民不能只有原住民，沒有全國的人民，你要真正的為人民服務。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金委員。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2時30分繼續開會，進行內政組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（12時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}