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志工團體都志願性的對 因為你在所以這是平時是由內政部來做統整民間團體由民間力量自己來做協助跟訓練但是我們剛剛所提到的如果你是一警一消或甚至替代役的訓練的話那內政部就按照法律來做訓練這些訓練會比較有規模譬如說我們要做EMT的訓練部長 這個他們本來就在做對 但是我們希望能夠再精進"},{"start":329.304,"end":350.404,"text":"消防也是因為你還是做初級的我們現在看到你們做的只是初級的救護訓練然後消防的部分其實他們也都有其實我聽到地方的那個教訓招訓算是去年開始有一些像這樣的協情單位他們去年開始可能有接受去年是一天今年是兩天"},{"start":351.425,"end":377.945,"text":"那他們受的一個訓練大概就是檢疫的救護然後還有操作無人機可是他們有很多都已經60歲了因為現在年輕人我們少子化其實年輕的並不多不像以前其實要參加疫消都還要排隊那現在其實在招募的過程其實不像過去那麼多了可是他們在訓練大概就訓練這些有一些他們說"},{"start":379.48,"end":398.604,"text":"我們操作無人機要做什麼他這一次的課程就是這樣那你只是在很短的時間那你那麼多的人感覺上其實他好像就是在也是就是過水一樣所以我們現在今天要特別提出來的這是一個問題就是他本來其實已經都有在做尤其你們剛剛念的這些團體組織那因為你們在對媒體披露出來的"},{"start":405.111,"end":405.271,"text":"市農工商："},{"start":421.548,"end":422.168,"text":"在這裡不好意思"},{"start":449.554,"end":449.594,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":472.774,"end":473.134,"text":"主席"},{"start":497.375,"end":498.316,"text":"現在的國軍他們在救災當中只是支援調度組"},{"start":513.337,"end":536.828,"text":"真正有災害發生的時候第一個都是警消在第一線馳援但是支援調度組包括很多機具或者是其他後續的這些清消的工作都來協助因為你講的這個我就說他們平常已經在做火災發生的當下當然是消防疫消他們會去那疫警當然在整個維護上面協助警力這些本來就在做我剛剛也講到你說的救災的部分"},{"start":538.749,"end":540.05,"text":"有其他的人請問再計算一下"},{"start":561.713,"end":576.739,"text":"他們有亦警亦消就是這些民防團體他們在一般來說因為我們現在少子化尤其像我們現在的教招教招一般來說他的時間現在拉長然後他的頻率越來越高"},{"start":577.039,"end":577.359,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":595.939,"end":598.381,"text":"報告委員 有關招訊的兩個部分在內政部所處理是替代役"},{"start":623.88,"end":641.694,"text":"替代議的部長我要請教的是因為不要講天那個我們都知道那個我們都知道已經存在的不用再解釋我現在要講的是因為你剛剛成立這個委員會那這個委員會裡面你又要那邊有40萬的可是名利那這些可是名利裡面扣掉比較"},{"start":643.215,"end":643.616,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":657.932,"end":678.565,"text":"比如黑熊學院這樣子的一個NGO的組織他們要不要接受教召 只要告訴我們要不要就好所以他們要嘛 後備軍人有國防部負責我現在要問的是說這一個部分他要不要接受教召 因為是內政部管的"},{"start":680.886,"end":697.254,"text":"那他是誰呢我跟委員解釋一下部長你先不要講話那請教院長如果我們這個那邊的委員會我們現在要知道如果因為像義消義警他們平常做了很多的社會服務的工作"},{"start":697.594,"end":698.274,"text":"這完全沒有辦法重疊跟取代"},{"start":716.224,"end":734.852,"text":"每一個不同的團體他都有他的主管機關會負責他平常的業務這個都不會受影響那或許我們在地方大型的演練的時候會有一些基本上的訓練但是這還沒有做到細部的計畫那為什麼要有40萬的名利因為大型災害來臨的時候可能在很多的地點"},{"start":735.712,"end":738.774,"text":"南投縣曾經發生921大地震在這麼大的一個天然災害裡面其實大家的互助那個已經是每個人都動起來當然我們"},{"start":754.261,"end":755.121,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":779.551,"end":805.099,"text":"目前是不會增加我們需要的是這樣的答案另外因為我們在看到國軍常備部隊目前已經低於20萬人未來再加上一年起義務役也許可以到達25萬那全國可徵用的列管後備總人數大概200餘萬人可是按照國防部目前他的資料就退伍8年內"},{"start":805.819,"end":808.51,"text":"他可以列管的議欄大概有76萬"},{"start":810.708,"end":835.634,"text":"每年招訓的元額大概是26萬也就是說我們現在在徵招的時候在動員實施的時候你如果在徵招期間對於徵招勤務還有軍需生產的人力是召集退伍以後8年內的後備軍人大概就是76萬人如果再加上我們的常備部隊25萬人左右大概可以用的就是100萬"},{"start":837.054,"end":837.094,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":856.561,"end":875.556,"text":"這個我們在動員實施階段軍方的這些任務其實是有些是重疊的所以到時候可能會發生有一些混亂的一個狀況我想請教的是如果暫時部隊耗損的時候補充人力要從哪裡來"},{"start":879.333,"end":891.505,"text":"這個40萬的名利基本上他不會參與剛剛說的那樣的一個活動跟那樣的任務他主要是在訓練他從事剛剛說的協助收容緊急救援以及次序維護"},{"start":892.605,"end":914.821,"text":"部長因為我為什麼特別提到就是說因為現在大家會覺得你好像準備的是戰爭的狀況所以我特別提出來是剛剛那40萬人裡面其實是跟我們的戰爭就是我們在沒有就是跟我們的後備體系可能會被納到包括我們常備部隊一起要參與作戰的如果他在梯隊耗損以後其實通常會從這些人"},{"start":915.782,"end":915.802,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:02:15+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:02:20.340000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請卓院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T15:02:20.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:02:25.680000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:02:25.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:02:26.141000+08:00","text":"馬委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:02:42.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:02:42.853000+08:00","text":"院長午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:02:45.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:03:09.123000+08:00","text":"院長，在今天內政的質詢裡，可能也有非常多近期大家關切的部分，就是總統要成立一個全社會防衛韌性委員會，當中要特別培養40萬的可恃民力，我想要請教這40萬是怎麼計算出來的？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:03:09.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:03:12.584000+08:00","text":"它包含哪些人或者哪些團體？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:03:15.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:04:01.295000+08:00","text":"謝謝，關於民力的部分，其包含的團體相當多，比方有義勇警察大隊、義交大隊、山地的義警隊、義消還有災害防救團體跟志願團體等等，當然還有一種特種防衛團，這些加起來就朝向40萬民力來做準備，這個是為了因應在很多災害發生的時候，讓人民能夠自救，也能夠互助，同時有收容必要的時候，他能夠去協助，在發生危險的時候，他還能夠救援這些人命，重要的問題是在穩定整個社會的秩序跟治安的問題，協助這些工作。","quality":0.386},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:04:02.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:04:06.118000+08:00","text":"院長，這聽起來其實是有點虛幻。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:04:06.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:04:07.118000+08:00","text":"不會啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:04:07.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:02.338000+08:00","text":"因為我們剛剛提到的一些民防團體，比如義警、義消、民防還有義交等等，其實他們現在的工作就是所有相關一些單位的協勤，其實他們本來就在做，而且做得算是都非常好，尤其剛剛提到包括很多民間組織，比如說像慈濟，其實他們做得甚至比政府好，他們往往都跑在第一時間，如果在穩定人心或者災害發生的當下，其實他們不管是面對地震也好，不管對於風災、水災，其實他們也落實得非常的多，所以像剛剛唸到的這些，其實他們平常都有在做，而且他們都有受到很好的訓練，可是另外還有一些新的，到底是什麼？","quality":0.362},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:02.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:03.699000+08:00","text":"還有什麼新的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:03.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:08.621000+08:00","text":"首先，很感謝委員剛剛提到的這些個團體，包括民間的慈善工作……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:09.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:10.782000+08:00","text":"院長，我們討論新的部分，好不好？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:11.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:25.269000+08:00","text":"對，第一個，我們要感謝他們，但就是要把他們的工作再整合起來，有系統的整合起來，而不是段段落落、區區段段這樣一段一段來做，整合起來，整個民力才能夠去做有效的運用，等於說……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:25.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:39.099000+08:00","text":"我們現在先請教另外一個，就是我剛剛說的，除了剛剛這幾個，因為40萬的可恃民力，除了剛剛院長提到的，因為你可能還漏掉了，就是我們的替代役……","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:40.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:40.440000+08:00","text":"是，還有替代役。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:41.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:44.182000+08:00","text":"替代役在裡面就占了絕大部分，大概二十六萬多了……","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:44.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:45.182000+08:00","text":"是，還有替代役。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:45.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:46.144000+08:00","text":"還有沒有什麼其他的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:46.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:47.144000+08:00","text":"我請部長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:46.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:05:48.666000+08:00","text":"你說的NGO團體。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:05:48.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:03.624000+08:00","text":"NGO團體到目前為止，我們的計算基礎大概在3萬到4萬左右，這NGO的團體，我們也希望它在未來碰到大規模災害的時候，可以跟政府的一些力量一起結合。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:04.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:05.606000+08:00","text":"舉例來說，有哪些NGO團體？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:05.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:06.607000+08:00","text":"我想第一個有防災式的訓練，還有你剛剛提到的慈濟，另外還有一個叫T-CERT，就是民間的自主應變隊，這個部分大致上譬如像臺北港、高雄港，如果有碰到大規模風災的時候，我們希望在第一時間內他們可以自救……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:06.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:06.847000+08:00","text":"他們過去、現在有在做嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:06.847000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:07.847000+08:00","text":"有，現在已經有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:06.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:07.767000+08:00","text":"所以其實你們提到的都是現在已經存在的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:07.767000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:08.767000+08:00","text":"沒有，有些在增加當中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:07.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:08.088000+08:00","text":"這些相關的組織跟團體……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:08.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:09.088000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，有些在增加。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:08.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:36.758000+08:00","text":"平常其實他們就已經做得非常好，慈濟是全世界公認的，它不管在任何的……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:36.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:37.938000+08:00","text":"是，全世界都公認的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:37.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:48.623000+08:00","text":"紀律各方面還有效率其實都非常地好，甚至它並不需要政府再去多做其他的規範，其實反而會綁手綁腳……是……","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:48.623000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:49.623000+08:00","text":"還有沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:48.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:53.645000+08:00","text":"因為我在裡面還有看到黑熊的部分，黑熊學院也在裡面，對不對？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:06:54.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:06:59.148000+08:00","text":"沒有，黑熊學院是民間團體，自己在訓練他們自己的民間力量。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:00.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:05.592000+08:00","text":"我們是這樣子，包括像慈濟或是黑熊這些未來要納編，就是如果我們到大規模……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:06.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:10.455000+08:00","text":"所以他們未來都會在我們的可恃民力裡面，是不是？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:10.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:13.217000+08:00","text":"也會屬於其中一環，但是是自願性的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:15.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:16.504000+08:00","text":"現在所有都是自願性的，你沒有強制力啊！","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:16.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:18.245000+08:00","text":"對，志工團體都是自願性的。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:19.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:23.629000+08:00","text":"所以這平時是由內政部來統整？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:23.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:38.920000+08:00","text":"民間團體由民間力量自己來協助跟訓練，但是我們剛剛所提到的，如果是義警、義消甚至是替代役訓練的話，內政部就按照法律來訓練，這些訓練會比較有規模，譬如我們要做EMT的訓練……","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:38.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:41.262000+08:00","text":"部長，這個他們本來就在做，他們本來都有……","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:42.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:43.343000+08:00","text":"對，但是我們希望能夠再精進。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:44.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:07:48.528000+08:00","text":"消防也是，因為你還是做初級的，我們現在看到你們做的只是初級的救護訓練……沒有……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:07:48.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:09.307000+08:00","text":"消防的部分其實他們也都有，其實我聽到地方的召訓算是去年開始，有一些像這樣的協勤單位，他們去年開始可能有接受，去年是1天，今年是2天，他們受的訓練大概就是簡易的救護……","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:11.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:12.089000+08:00","text":"檢傷救護。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:12.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:15.412000+08:00","text":"然後還有操作無人機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:15.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:16.412000+08:00","text":"自救，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:15.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:38.481000+08:00","text":"可是他們有很多都已經60歲了，因為現在少子化，其實年輕的並不多，不像以前，其實要參加義消都還要排隊，現在招募的過程其實不像過去那麼多了，可是他們訓練大概就訓練這些，有一些他們說要我們操作無人機做什麼，他這一次的課程就是這樣……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:38.481000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:39.481000+08:00","text":"有些是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:38.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:08:53.584000+08:00","text":"尤其是在很短的時間，那麼多的人，感覺上好像也是在過水一樣，所以我們今天要特別提出來的，這是一個問題，就是它本來其實都已經有在做，尤其你們剛剛唸的這些團體、組織，你們對媒體披露出來的其實還有一些NGO團體，我們比較不知道他們到底要做的是什麼。","quality":0.691},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:08:53.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:09:05.950375+08:00","text":"我現在也要請教，就是他們平時各自大概都有自己的訓練……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:09:05.950375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:09:18.316750+08:00","text":"士農工商，各有自己的專業。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:09:18.316750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:09:30.683125+08:00","text":"所以內政部也沒有什麼角色。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:09:30.683125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:09:43.049500+08:00","text":"沒有，我想跟委員報告，譬如像這一次的風災，我們也是希望這些志工團體願意納進來，所以這次風災有納進來的志工團體，我們慢慢會就它的類別，有納進來的志工團體有多少人，慢慢會做一下統計資料，未來如果碰到譬如像檢傷救護或是其他需要做後勤支援的話，他們願意加進來，我們就會在事前、事後或事中再做訓練或再培訓的工作。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:09:43.049500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:09:55.415875+08:00","text":"部長，不好意思，我為什麼會說講得很虛無，是因為風災發生的時候，第一時間，尤其在整個過程當中，我們往往都是調動軍人救災，當然如果在戰時，軍人必須要回到本務，作戰這個部分，他根本沒有辦法再來參與救災，或者去幫大家整理傾倒的路樹或者其他的泥沙淤積等等，你現在的這些人力是不是未來要取代做這些工作？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:09:55.415875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:10:07.782250+08:00","text":"這是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:10:07.782250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:10:20.148625+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛有提到他們的包紮什麼的，其實我們平常的風災、水災，或者一些災害發生的時候，它是局部性的，如果不是像戰場的情況，大家發生受傷情況，大家會去醫院，不會讓這些人力去做包紮，我覺得這是常識，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:10:20.148625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:10:32.515000+08:00","text":"委員，我覺得我需要再說明一下，我想不是這樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:10:32.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:10:57.781000+08:00","text":"第一個，現在國軍在救災當中只是支援調度組，真正有災害發生的時候，第一個都是警消在第一線馳援，但是支援調度組包括很多機具，或者是其他後續的這些清消的工作要來協助。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:10:57.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:03.784000+08:00","text":"部長，沒關係，因為你講的這個，我就說他們平常已經在做了，火災發生的當下當然是消防義消會去。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:04.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:11.248000+08:00","text":"義警當然是在整個維護上面協助警力，這些本來就在做，我剛剛也講了。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:11.248000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:12.248000+08:00","text":"但是大規模的時候，人數是不夠的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:12.248000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:13.248000+08:00","text":"你說的救災部分，去看看高雄這次發生的時候，它調動一千多名軍人。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:13.248000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:14.248000+08:00","text":"支援組。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:14.248000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:15.248000+08:00","text":"即使在營區也發生這樣的風災的情況之下，他們還是去做這些救援，其實沒有運用到其他的人力，我們現在要說的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:13.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:14.870000+08:00","text":"有其他的人力，只是沒有在計算當中而已。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:14.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:51.719000+08:00","text":"我現在簡單地再請教一下，因為剛剛唸的這些可恃民力有義警義消，就是這些民防團體，一般來說，因為我們現在少子化，尤其像我們現在的教召，教召一般來說，現在時間拉長了，然後它的頻率越來越高，就是因應現在的局勢，所以如果像這樣，義消、義警其實他們是可以不被教召的，現在的替代役因為在你40萬可恃民力裡面，扣掉這些，然後還有我們的替代役，替代役有役政司……","quality":0.349},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:51.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:11:58.125667+08:00","text":"役政司，或是替代役管理中心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:11:58.125667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:12:04.532333+08:00","text":"現在他們會自己教召，現在我想要知道的是，如果這些可恃民力未來比如像這些NGO團體，比如像黑熊學院這樣子的一個團體、組織，未來他們要不要教召？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:12:04.532333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:12:10.939000+08:00","text":"如果他們已經被納管、編制，以後他們要不要教召？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:12:10.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:12:39.400000+08:00","text":"報告委員，有關招訓的兩個部分，內政部處理的是替代役，替代役的部分……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:12:39.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:19.916000+08:00","text":"部長，不要講替代役，那個我們都知道，已經存在的不用再解釋，我現在要講的是，你剛剛成立這個委員會，這個委員會裡面你又要納編，有40萬的可恃民力，這些可恃民力裡面扣掉占最大主力的，就是替代役跟這些義消、義警等等，他們其實平常就是不用接受教召的，我想要知道的是，如果未來納編以後，像這樣的NGO團體，比如像黑熊學院這樣子的一個NGO的組織，他們要不要接受教召？","quality":0.544},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:20.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:24.419000+08:00","text":"只要告訴我們要不要就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:24.419000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:25.419000+08:00","text":"後備軍人由國防部負責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:25.419000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:26.419000+08:00","text":"要不要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:26.419000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:27.419000+08:00","text":"後備軍人由國防部負責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:24.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:25.880000+08:00","text":"所以他們要嘛，是不是？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:26.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:27.961000+08:00","text":"後備軍人由國防部負責。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:27.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:32.304000+08:00","text":"那不是後備軍人，我現在要問的是這一個部分，他們要不要接受教召？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:32.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:33.545000+08:00","text":"因為是內政部管的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:33.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:34.715500+08:00","text":"沒有，不是。如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:34.715500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:35.886000+08:00","text":"我們沒有管。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:35.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:38.107000+08:00","text":"那他們是誰管的？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:38.107000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:39.107000+08:00","text":"他們是自願團體。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:39.107000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:40.107000+08:00","text":"那他們是誰管的呢？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:38.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:39.808000+08:00","text":"我跟委員再解釋一下。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:40.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:41.589000+08:00","text":"部長，你先不要講話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:42.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:52.234000+08:00","text":"請教院長，這個納編的委員會，我們現在要知道，像義消、義警他們平常做了很多的社會服務工作，他們已經在做了，他們是不需要被教召的，現在有人在傳「我們加入黑熊，是不是我們就不需要教召」，這個變成是他可以逃避教召的一個管道，可不可以？","quality":0.37},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:52.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:53.234000+08:00","text":"這個可不可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:53.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:13:54.234000+08:00","text":"院長，請在這裡明確地讓大家知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:13:52.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:14:25.470000+08:00","text":"這完全沒有辦法重疊跟取代，每一個不同的團體都有它的主管機關，會負責它平常的業務，這個都不會受影響，或許我們在地方大型演練的時候，會有一些基本的訓練，但是這還沒有做到細部的計畫。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:14:25.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:14:26.430000+08:00","text":"為什麼會有40萬的民力？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:14:27.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:14:29.852000+08:00","text":"因為大型災害來臨的時候，可能在很多的地點，可能在交通受阻的地方，可能要出現非常緊急的救援，這個都不是用現在這個分散的單位就可以處理的。","quality":0.306},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:14:30.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:14:33.673000+08:00","text":"部長，南投縣曾經發生九二一大地震，在這麼大的一個天然災害裡面，其實大家會互助，那已經是每個人都動起來。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:14:33.673000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:14:47.299000+08:00","text":"所以要做得更好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:14:47.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:15:00.925000+08:00","text":"當然，我們知道，你們剛剛提到的那個都沒有問題，所謂的做到更好是要怎麼做，應該告訴大家怎麼做，然後怎麼規劃。","quality":0.085},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:15:00.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:15:14.551000+08:00","text":"我剛剛問的問題是，如果你們在40萬可恃民力裡面納編，我只是舉個例，除了扣掉本來就不需要教召的這些人力以外，以後會不會因為加入委員會相關的組織就可以不需要教召？","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:15:14.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:15:16.332000+08:00","text":"目前是不會增加。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:15:16.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:15:18.232000+08:00","text":"不會嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:15:18.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:15:19.653000+08:00","text":"好，我們需要的是這樣的答案。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:15:19.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:16:10.634000+08:00","text":"另外，我們看到國軍常備部隊目前已經低於20萬人，未來再加上1年期義務役，也許可以到達25萬人，全國可徵用的列管後備總人數大概兩百餘萬人；可是按照國防部目前的資料，針對退伍8年內可以列管的役男大概有76萬，每年招訓的員額大概是26萬，也就是現在在徵召、動員實施時，在徵召期間對於徵召勤務還有軍需生產人力，是召集退伍8年內的後備軍人，大概就是76萬人，再加上常備部隊25萬人左右，可以用的就是100萬人，作戰的時候，這100萬人是可以用的。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:16:10.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:16:31.561000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要特別提出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:16:31.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:16:44.732000+08:00","text":"過去沒有像這樣把他們混在一起，剛剛你提的可恃民力，也就是在這個委員會裡面，其實他們有些工作項目跟動員實施階段中軍方的任務有些重疊，所以到時候可能會發生一些混亂的狀況。","quality":0.449},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:16:44.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:16:50.556000+08:00","text":"我想請教的是，如果戰時部隊耗損的時候，補充人力要從哪裡來？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:16:55.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:17:06.505000+08:00","text":"基本上這40萬民力不會參與剛剛說的那樣的活動跟那樣的任務，他們主要是在訓練、從事剛剛說過的協助收容、緊急救援以及秩序維護。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:17:07.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T15:17:29.801000+08:00","text":"部長，我為什麼特別提到，就是因為現在大家會覺得你準備的好像是戰爭的狀況，所以我特別提出來，在剛剛那40萬人裡面，其實是跟我們的戰爭……沒有，就是我們的後備體系可能會被納到常備部隊，一起參與作戰，如果在梯隊耗損以後，其實通常會從這些人去調度人力，可是現在重複了，現在比較擔心的是未來會怎麼樣區隔？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:17:30.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:17:32.872429+08:00","text":"怎麼樣補充這些人力？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2024-10-08T15:17:33.172429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:17:39.743857+08:00","text":"是不是在近期內，行政院可以做一個更完整的補充說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T15:17:40.043857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:17:48.043857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員這麼關心民力的培訓，我們一起把事情做得更好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T15:17:48.343857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:17:55.486714+08:00","text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T15:17:55.786714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T15:18:01.215286+08:00","text":"報告院會，接下來請登記第15號林岱樺委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:02:15 - 15:17:50","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（15時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安。院長，在今天內政的質詢裡，可能也有非常多近期大家關切的部分，就是總統要成立一個全社會防衛韌性委員會，當中要特別培養40萬的可恃民力，我想要請教這40萬是怎麼計算出來的？它包含哪些人或者哪些團體？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，關於民力的部分，其包含的團體相當多，比方有義勇警察大隊、義交大隊、山地的義警隊、義消還有災害防救團體跟志願團體等等，當然還有一種特種防衛團，這些加起來就朝向40萬民力來做準備，這個是為了因應在很多災害發生的時候，讓人民能夠自救，也能夠互助，同時有收容必要的時候，他能夠去協助，在發生危險的時候，他還能夠救援這些人命，重要的問題是在穩定整個社會的秩序跟治安的問題，協助這些工作。"],["馬委員文君：院長，這聽起來其實是有點虛幻。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啊……"],["馬委員文君：因為我們剛剛提到的一些民防團體，比如義警、義消、民防還有義交等等，其實他們現在的工作就是所有相關一些單位的協勤，其實他們本來就在做，而且做得算是都非常好，尤其剛剛提到包括很多民間組織，比如說像慈濟，其實他們做得甚至比政府好，他們往往都跑在第一時間，如果在穩定人心或者災害發生的當下，其實他們不管是面對地震也好，不管對於風災、水災，其實他們也落實得非常的多，所以像剛剛唸到的這些，其實他們平常都有在做，而且他們都有受到很好的訓練，可是另外還有一些新的，到底是什麼？還有什麼新的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，很感謝委員剛剛提到的這些個團體，包括民間的慈善工作……"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們討論新的部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，第一個，我們要感謝他們，但就是要把他們的工作再整合起來，有系統的整合起來，而不是段段落落、區區段段這樣一段一段來做，整合起來，整個民力才能夠去做有效的運用，等於說……"],["馬委員文君：我們現在先請教另外一個，就是我剛剛說的，除了剛剛這幾個，因為40萬的可恃民力，除了剛剛院長提到的，因為你可能還漏掉了，就是我們的替代役……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，還有替代役。"],["馬委員文君：替代役在裡面就占了絕大部分，大概二十六萬多了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，還有替代役。"],["馬委員文君：還有沒有什麼其他的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長說明。"],["馬委員文君：你說的NGO團體。"],["劉部長世芳：NGO團體到目前為止，我們的計算基礎大概在3萬到4萬左右，這NGO的團體，我們也希望它在未來碰到大規模災害的時候，可以跟政府的一些力量一起結合。"],["馬委員文君：舉例來說，有哪些NGO團體？"],["劉部長世芳：我想第一個有防災式的訓練，還有你剛剛提到的慈濟，另外還有一個叫T-CERT，就是民間的自主應變隊，這個部分大致上譬如像臺北港、高雄港，如果有碰到大規模風災的時候，我們希望在第一時間內他們可以自救……"],["馬委員文君：他們過去、現在有在做嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，現在已經有……"],["馬委員文君：所以其實你們提到的都是現在已經存在的……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，有些在增加當中。"],["馬委員文君：這些相關的組織跟團體……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，有些在增加。"],["馬委員文君：平常其實他們就已經做得非常好，慈濟是全世界公認的，它不管在任何的……"],["劉部長世芳：是，全世界都公認的。"],["馬委員文君：紀律各方面還有效率其實都非常地好，甚至它並不需要政府再去多做其他的規範，其實反而會綁手綁腳……"],["劉部長世芳：是……"],["馬委員文君：還有沒有？因為我在裡面還有看到黑熊的部分，黑熊學院也在裡面，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，黑熊學院是民間團體，自己在訓練他們自己的民間力量。我們是這樣子，包括像慈濟或是黑熊這些未來要納編，就是如果我們到大規模……"],["馬委員文君：所以他們未來都會在我們的可恃民力裡面，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：也會屬於其中一環，但是是自願性的。"],["馬委員文君：現在所有都是自願性的，你沒有強制力啊！"],["劉部長世芳：對，志工團體都是自願性的。"],["馬委員文君：所以這平時是由內政部來統整？"],["劉部長世芳：民間團體由民間力量自己來協助跟訓練，但是我們剛剛所提到的，如果是義警、義消甚至是替代役訓練的話，內政部就按照法律來訓練，這些訓練會比較有規模，譬如我們要做EMT的訓練……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這個他們本來就在做，他們本來都有……"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是我們希望能夠再精進。"],["馬委員文君：消防也是，因為你還是做初級的，我們現在看到你們做的只是初級的救護訓練……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有……"],["馬委員文君：消防的部分其實他們也都有，其實我聽到地方的召訓算是去年開始，有一些像這樣的協勤單位，他們去年開始可能有接受，去年是1天，今年是2天，他們受的訓練大概就是簡易的救護……"],["劉部長世芳：檢傷救護。"],["馬委員文君：然後還有操作無人機。"],["劉部長世芳：自救，對。"],["馬委員文君：可是他們有很多都已經60歲了，因為現在少子化，其實年輕的並不多，不像以前，其實要參加義消都還要排隊，現在招募的過程其實不像過去那麼多了，可是他們訓練大概就訓練這些，有一些他們說要我們操作無人機做什麼，他這一次的課程就是這樣……"],["劉部長世芳：有些是……"],["馬委員文君：尤其是在很短的時間，那麼多的人，感覺上好像也是在過水一樣，所以我們今天要特別提出來的，這是一個問題，就是它本來其實都已經有在做，尤其你們剛剛唸的這些團體、組織，你們對媒體披露出來的其實還有一些NGO團體，我們比較不知道他們到底要做的是什麼。我現在也要請教，就是他們平時各自大概都有自己的訓練……"],["劉部長世芳：士農工商，各有自己的專業。"],["馬委員文君：所以內政部也沒有什麼角色。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想跟委員報告，譬如像這一次的風災，我們也是希望這些志工團體願意納進來，所以這次風災有納進來的志工團體，我們慢慢會就它的類別，有納進來的志工團體有多少人，慢慢會做一下統計資料，未來如果碰到譬如像檢傷救護或是其他需要做後勤支援的話，他們願意加進來，我們就會在事前、事後或事中再做訓練或再培訓的工作。"],["馬委員文君：部長，不好意思，我為什麼會說講得很虛無，是因為風災發生的時候，第一時間，尤其在整個過程當中，我們往往都是調動軍人救災，當然如果在戰時，軍人必須要回到本務，作戰這個部分，他根本沒有辦法再來參與救災，或者去幫大家整理傾倒的路樹或者其他的泥沙淤積等等，你現在的這些人力是不是未來要取代做這些工作？這是第一點。第二個，剛剛有提到他們的包紮什麼的，其實我們平常的風災、水災，或者一些災害發生的時候，它是局部性的，如果不是像戰場的情況，大家發生受傷情況，大家會去醫院，不會讓這些人力去做包紮，我覺得這是常識，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我覺得我需要再說明一下，我想不是這樣的。第一個，現在國軍在救災當中只是支援調度組，真正有災害發生的時候，第一個都是警消在第一線馳援，但是支援調度組包括很多機具，或者是其他後續的這些清消的工作要來協助。"],["馬委員文君：部長，沒關係，因為你講的這個，我就說他們平常已經在做了，火災發生的當下當然是消防義消會去。義警當然是在整個維護上面協助警力，這些本來就在做，我剛剛也講了。"],["劉部長世芳：但是大規模的時候，人數是不夠的。"],["馬委員文君：你說的救災部分，去看看高雄這次發生的時候，它調動一千多名軍人。"],["劉部長世芳：支援組。"],["馬委員文君：即使在營區也發生這樣的風災的情況之下，他們還是去做這些救援，其實沒有運用到其他的人力，我們現在要說的……"],["劉部長世芳：有其他的人力，只是沒有在計算當中而已。"],["馬委員文君：我現在簡單地再請教一下，因為剛剛唸的這些可恃民力有義警義消，就是這些民防團體，一般來說，因為我們現在少子化，尤其像我們現在的教召，教召一般來說，現在時間拉長了，然後它的頻率越來越高，就是因應現在的局勢，所以如果像這樣，義消、義警其實他們是可以不被教召的，現在的替代役因為在你40萬可恃民力裡面，扣掉這些，然後還有我們的替代役，替代役有役政司……"],["劉部長世芳：役政司，或是替代役管理中心。"],["馬委員文君：現在他們會自己教召，現在我想要知道的是，如果這些可恃民力未來比如像這些NGO團體，比如像黑熊學院這樣子的一個團體、組織，未來他們要不要教召？如果他們已經被納管、編制，以後他們要不要教召？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，有關招訓的兩個部分，內政部處理的是替代役，替代役的部分……"],["馬委員文君：部長，不要講替代役，那個我們都知道，已經存在的不用再解釋，我現在要講的是，你剛剛成立這個委員會，這個委員會裡面你又要納編，有40萬的可恃民力，這些可恃民力裡面扣掉占最大主力的，就是替代役跟這些義消、義警等等，他們其實平常就是不用接受教召的，我想要知道的是，如果未來納編以後，像這樣的NGO團體，比如像黑熊學院這樣子的一個NGO的組織，他們要不要接受教召？只要告訴我們要不要就好。"],["劉部長世芳：後備軍人由國防部負責。"],["馬委員文君：要不要？"],["劉部長世芳：後備軍人由國防部負責。"],["馬委員文君：所以他們要嘛，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：後備軍人由國防部負責。"],["馬委員文君：那不是後備軍人，我現在要問的是這一個部分，他們要不要接受教召？因為是內政部管的。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，不是。"],["馬委員文君：如果……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有管。"],["馬委員文君：那他們是誰管的？"],["劉部長世芳：他們是自願團體。"],["馬委員文君：那他們是誰管的呢？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員再解釋一下。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你先不要講話。請教院長，這個納編的委員會，我們現在要知道，像義消、義警他們平常做了很多的社會服務工作，他們已經在做了，他們是不需要被教召的，現在有人在傳「我們加入黑熊，是不是我們就不需要教召」，這個變成是他可以逃避教召的一個管道，可不可以？這個可不可以？院長，請在這裡明確地讓大家知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：這完全沒有辦法重疊跟取代，每一個不同的團體都有它的主管機關，會負責它平常的業務，這個都不會受影響，或許我們在地方大型演練的時候，會有一些基本的訓練，但是這還沒有做到細部的計畫。為什麼會有40萬的民力？因為大型災害來臨的時候，可能在很多的地點，可能在交通受阻的地方，可能要出現非常緊急的救援，這個都不是用現在這個分散的單位就可以處理的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，南投縣曾經發生九二一大地震，在這麼大的一個天然災害裡面，其實大家會互助，那已經是每個人都動起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要做得更好。"],["馬委員文君：當然，我們知道，你們剛剛提到的那個都沒有問題，所謂的做到更好是要怎麼做，應該告訴大家怎麼做，然後怎麼規劃。我剛剛問的問題是，如果你們在40萬可恃民力裡面納編，我只是舉個例，除了扣掉本來就不需要教召的這些人力以外，以後會不會因為加入委員會相關的組織就可以不需要教召？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是不會增加。"],["馬委員文君：不會嘛！好，我們需要的是這樣的答案。","另外，我們看到國軍常備部隊目前已經低於20萬人，未來再加上1年期義務役，也許可以到達25萬人，全國可徵用的列管後備總人數大概兩百餘萬人；可是按照國防部目前的資料，針對退伍8年內可以列管的役男大概有76萬，每年招訓的員額大概是26萬，也就是現在在徵召、動員實施時，在徵召期間對於徵召勤務還有軍需生產人力，是召集退伍8年內的後備軍人，大概就是76萬人，再加上常備部隊25萬人左右，可以用的就是100萬人，作戰的時候，這100萬人是可以用的。我為什麼要特別提出來？過去沒有像這樣把他們混在一起，剛剛你提的可恃民力，也就是在這個委員會裡面，其實他們有些工作項目跟動員實施階段中軍方的任務有些重疊，所以到時候可能會發生一些混亂的狀況。","我想請教的是，如果戰時部隊耗損的時候，補充人力要從哪裡來？"],["卓院長榮泰：基本上這40萬民力不會參與剛剛說的那樣的活動跟那樣的任務，他們主要是在訓練、從事剛剛說過的協助收容、緊急救援以及秩序維護。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我為什麼特別提到，就是因為現在大家會覺得你準備的好像是戰爭的狀況，所以我特別提出來，在剛剛那40萬人裡面，其實是跟我們的戰爭……沒有，就是我們的後備體系可能會被納到常備部隊，一起參與作戰，如果在梯隊耗損以後，其實通常會從這些人去調度人力，可是現在重複了，現在比較擔心的是未來會怎麼樣區隔？怎麼樣補充這些人力？是不是在近期內，行政院可以做一個更完整的補充說明？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這麼關心民力的培訓，我們一起把事情做得更好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，接下來請登記第15號林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}