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您當特兵嗎對 那我想我這個部分現在沒有辦法有一個說但是基本上來講他都會有一線二線然後會有準備"},{"start":254.94,"end":257.184,"text":"T91鋪槍打靶射擊,從打靶到清槍的SOP"},{"start":270.738,"end":297.684,"text":"打碼的應該他就是第一線那我想詳細的SOP我坦誠跟委員報告我沒有辦法現在好您是新任的部長但是這些SOP您應該要了解因為呢我給您一些時間因為您不是軍人的部長出身但是我必須也很坦誠的告訴你這是一個國防部長應該最基本要了解的"},{"start":298.544,"end":310.735,"text":"然後國軍向我反映今天有國軍向我反映他說每一次打靶的時候他都很害怕因為清槍的人第一很多人沒有按照程序來"},{"start":311.971,"end":312.191,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":333.288,"end":353.087,"text":"人既然是非自然死亡我認為也應該請檢調一起進來查核而且這不是單一士兵的擔憂是許多軍人都有的共同恐懼國防部應該要全面的改善跟檢討打法槍支以及槍支檢查的SOP部長可以做到嗎"},{"start":353.587,"end":370.474,"text":"是我想委員的指教是對的我想我下去之後根據這個事件我會要求全面的釐清相關事情這個不幸事件發生的經過那整個您剛剛提到的整個SOP他有沒有做到那應有的SOP是什麼"},{"start":371.309,"end":391.987,"text":"我移情之後再跟委員做一個詳細的報告好那接下來兩位也都請留步首先我們要來請教的是PDA總統的提用權也就是美國免費的提供臺灣軍事援助我們是不用出錢的本來是美式一樁這個院長應該也非常的清楚"},{"start":393.249,"end":407.183,"text":"去年7月底美國白宮首度宣布要動用PDA美國總統提用權對台灣軍事價值提供3.45億美元也就是110億台幣的裝備這聽起來非常的美好"},{"start":411.247,"end":439.996,"text":"但是在今年的9月11號美國白宮他們也在國防部的檢查總長發出的針對美國國防部用的總統提用權提供給臺灣裝備之追蹤監察評估報告裡面說明了這些PDA裝備沒有進行有效的品質管理你可以看到上面發布的單位是美國的Inspector General那請問一下我先問一下卓院長"},{"start":440.816,"end":442.218,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":452.17,"end":480.133,"text":"他們有跟我做過相關的簡報OK做簡報好那既然是這樣的話齁那我先問一下院長齁因為這題是院長的要確認一下院長對國政是否瞭解那請部長先稍等一下這3.45億的PDA項目目前有多少抵達台灣了這個應該是要問部長要先問你等一下會問他這個我真的你不確定這個我不會每天去問多少進度在這裡好那個部長"},{"start":482.374,"end":487.618,"text":"我問的是多少比例已經來到臺灣了?3.45億的第一批我們正在跟美國的國安部互相協調我們在跟美國的國安部在協調3.45億的第一批100%已經抵達臺灣了報告裡面都有寫"},{"start":509.412,"end":524.51,"text":"報告裡面都有寫來我們看一下那你一定就也不知道3.451裡面的第一批貨送往臺灣的時間點在什麼時候吧因為前面一個問題你都不知道了後面一個問題顯然你也不知道沒關係那我直接告訴大家"},{"start":526.031,"end":546.895,"text":"頭兩架飛機飛來台灣是在去年的12月底左右那這個騎乘是去年的12月底一路到今年的3月中這是第一批美國的PDA他開始提供台灣軍軍事的支援從去年的12月到今年的3月中左右的這一段時間那一共就是110億元的軍事協助"},{"start":550.856,"end":571.025,"text":"但是我們從去年底到3月中左右收到的第一批PDA的軍備卻是長這樣我們看一下各種發霉或是受潮的情況請問國防部是在省的時候知道PDA的軍備我們所收到的有這樣子受損跟發霉的損壞這件事情的"},{"start":571.305,"end":571.645,"text":"請問如何處理?"},{"start":595.776,"end":596.856,"text":"我們看一下那個站板的圖片好不好"},{"start":625.728,"end":650.653,"text":"讓這個部長那個對他是這樣子一箱一箱運進來的你可以看到這個圖片他是這樣一箱一箱運進來的那因為那個底下一個一個的站板我們用那個站板來做計算的話他這個一塊一塊的站板他就是一箱一箱的運那請問一下以這個站板的數量來做計算的話請問國防部知道有多少的比例是有受潮的情況嗎"},{"start":652.165,"end":653.146,"text":"可是他是一個公開的報告呀"},{"start":682.685,"end":698.129,"text":"對那這一個部分呢只是在其中的我只能告訴你就是說67%我不想浪費時間了我現在所說的東西都不是秘密他是公開在網路上可以看到的美國公開的報告67%的"},{"start":702.15,"end":720.66,"text":"這樣子運過來的產品他都是受潮的我們接下來繼續看如果您講的是黃蛋背信的話黃蛋背信我們接受原證的這個項目有好幾萬到十幾萬件不等只有4000餘件是受潮發明的狀況"},{"start":722.561,"end":747.203,"text":"我講防彈背信的部分是這樣子彈的部分大概您提到的大概是就是說有些是期限的問題但是我跟您提就是說傳統的彈藥是批號彈藥裡面它其實並沒有期限問題所以它還是要經過檢診之後算是堪不堪用經過檢診之後還是可以堪用的所以最重要的是抗彈板的部分你們要確定絕對不能再用了"},{"start":747.563,"end":768.514,"text":"因為呢 其實像防彈衣 抗彈板 子彈跟搬用機槍的部分都很多有受潮 損毀 發霉跟包裝不良的用品所以它被局部公開了接下來 國軍確實花了數週整理烘乾跟庫存受損的軍品我想請問 我們國軍針對這一批受損的"},{"start":772.576,"end":799.01,"text":"PDA裝備我們有沒有花經費來做處理處置跟委員報告我想我們已經我剛剛已經已經有透露一些我們接受了一些狀況但是我不想我不覺得我應該要再進一步就每一項的品項跟跟委員在不是每一項就是整體而言我現在要說明的就是剛剛已經說了是少量的狀況有"},{"start":799.991,"end":801.112,"text":"很少量嗎美國國防部光是他們自己在回收這批東西花了2405個小時花了62萬美金"},{"start":819.071,"end":843.039,"text":"也花了另外11萬美金去更換105個防彈板跟3件戰術背心然後這是還沒有運到台灣的部分那我們台灣也花了好幾個禮拜針對受潮發媒的PDA裝備進行拆包乾燥跟盤點而且根據報告裡面來說我們國軍是有出資的我想請問我們花了多少錢在"},{"start":843.999,"end":849.85,"text":"免費的最貴的這件事情上面是用自動支了哪一筆的預算來做相關的盤整"},{"start":851.606,"end":874.619,"text":"我覺得我要跟委員報告我們接受的您剛也提到了這個公開的資料顯示它這是110億的一個這麼大的一個款項接受的這個項目跟時間我們認為是屬於機密不宜公開那其中有四千餘件是受潮方面的這個狀況我們本身應用我們自己既有的這個維持的這個"},{"start":877.682,"end":881.844,"text":"那請問這些受潮損壞的東西會被計算在第一批的3.45億美元的PDA扣打裡面嗎?沒有沒有 有些不堪用退回去了"},{"start":899.664,"end":901.946,"text":"我剛剛已經告訴你了,我們回到那個白皮書那一頁紫色的那一頁"},{"start":913.55,"end":939.97,"text":"我剛已經告訴你了是Inspector General他們美國的檢察院的這公開的報告我剛有問你們有沒有看過一位告訴我說有向林檢報過一位告訴我說你們知情然後知道有這樣子的一個說明我所有剛剛提出的每一個內容每一個都是從報告裡面的公開資訊你們不要自己沒有看報告的細節跟內容然後就說這個是秘密"},{"start":940.45,"end":941.191,"text":"我們是依照我們接收的狀況來跟委員做報告"},{"start":970.43,"end":982.215,"text":"最後我們向你們所知我們在驗貨的時候我們是由美方押運人員與國防部負責簽收報關及出關作業但在他們的調查裡面是"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:00:31+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:00:53.739500+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:00:53.739500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:01:16.479000+08:00","text":"我們有請卓院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:01:16.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:01:19.341000+08:00","text":"麻煩請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:01:47.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:01:48.269000+08:00","text":"徐委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:01:48.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:01:49.129000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:01:50.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:02:03.672000+08:00","text":"我第一個想問的是國家級警報在2024年1月9號大選前曾經發布過，那時候還把衛星寫成飛彈，造成了人民的恐慌。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:02:04.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:02:20.122000+08:00","text":"這次在雙十國慶的前夕，不僅不具名的國安高層放了消息告訴大家，大陸準備要進行環臺的軍演，國防部也發了新聞稿說明對方將在雙十國慶發布會經過我國ADIZ的衛星，請問這次會發布國家級警報嗎？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:02:26.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:02:32.059000+08:00","text":"先跟委員報告，您說的第一次在1月份的那個警報，確實在用詞上不夠精準。是。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:02:33.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:02:40.121000+08:00","text":"我想各個相關單位也做了事後的檢討，已經有相當的改進，我想未來這種事情不至於發生。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:02:40.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:02:44.843000+08:00","text":"至於說現在在國慶之前，在臺灣海峽上面，確實這段時間以來都有一些大大小小的，各種中國海空軍的演習，是真的！","quality":0.404},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:02:44.843000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:02:53.183667+08:00","text":"我們也充分掌握各種動向，我還是認為對國家的安全沒有妨礙，對人民的安心，我們要讓人民感覺到國家是可靠的。同意！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:02:53.183667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:01.524333+08:00","text":"目前國防部已經發布，知道10月10號國慶日當天的時候會有一個火箭通過臺灣的ADIZ上空，請問當天我們會有發布國家級警報這樣子的規劃嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:01.524333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:09.865000+08:00","text":"請部長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:09.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:32.650000+08:00","text":"就我們現在所獲得的情資理解，它是由西昌發射之後，往西太平洋的方向飛行，會經過我們臺灣的防空識別區，但在經過我們這裡的時候，高度應該已經到卡門線。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:32.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:33.650000+08:00","text":"好，所以不會嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:33.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:34.650000+08:00","text":"所以沒有預計……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:34.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:35.650000+08:00","text":"就卡門線……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:35.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:36.650000+08:00","text":"好，沒有預計發布就對了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:36.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:37.650000+08:00","text":"但是我們仍然會應用各種情監偵手段來掌握整個彈道方向。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:37.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:38.650000+08:00","text":"好，瞭解，知道，確定了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:32.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:03:58.176000+08:00","text":"接下來要問的是顧部長，剛才您已經證實在清泉崗基地發生的悲劇是有一名士兵身亡，令人感到遺憾！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:03:58.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:05.618000+08:00","text":"但是這個過程也非常的懸疑，到目前為止都沒有辦法確認該員中槍的原因是什麼，是自戕？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:06.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:07.638000+08:00","text":"是操作不當？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:07.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:08.859000+08:00","text":"還是被流彈打到？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:09.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:19.482000+08:00","text":"所以我想請部長現場替我們說明空軍執行T91步槍的打靶射擊，從打靶到清槍的SOP是什麼。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:21.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:26.633000+08:00","text":"我想細節的部分，我現在也沒有辦法詳細的回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:26.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:27.633000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:27.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:28.314000+08:00","text":"為什麼不能詳細的回答？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:28.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:33.516000+08:00","text":"因為你問的等於是打靶流程的SOP嘛！對啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:33.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:35.456000+08:00","text":"您當過兵嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:35.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:44.920000+08:00","text":"對，我想這個部分我現在沒有辦法有一個說……但是基本上來講，它都會有一線、二線，然後會有準備，就我現在相關的理解，他是在二線的準備當中，也許在這個過程當中有一些……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:04:45.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:04:48.163000+08:00","text":"我問的是T91步槍的打靶射擊，從打靶到清槍的SOP。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:03.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:05:04.679000+08:00","text":"應該他就是第一線。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:05.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:05:10.260000+08:00","text":"我想，詳細的SOP我坦誠跟委員報告，我沒有辦法現在跟委員做詳細的……","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:10.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:05:15.861000+08:00","text":"好，您是新任的部長，但是這些SOP您應該要瞭解。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:17.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:05:28.664000+08:00","text":"我給您一些時間，因為您不是軍人出身的部長，但是我也必須很坦誠地告訴你，這是一個國防部長最基本應該要瞭解的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:28.664000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:05:32.307000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員指教，我下去瞭解。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:32.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:05:41.735000+08:00","text":"今天有國軍向我反映，他說每一次打靶的時候他都很害怕，因為清槍的人第一，很多人沒有按照程序來，卡彈時的安全，軍官以為處理好了，結果槍枝還是故障，有時候是檢查的人有問題，有時候根本就是槍枝故障、有問題。","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:05:41.735000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:04.288000+08:00","text":"所以這邊要特別跟部長來拜託，調查的時候請不要只推給士兵，說他不清楚流程、是自己的疏失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:04.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:24.087000+08:00","text":"人既然是非自然死亡，我認為也應該請檢調一起進來查核，而且這不是單一士兵的擔憂，是許多軍人都有的共同恐懼，國防部應該要全面地改善跟檢討打靶槍枝以及槍枝檢查的SOP，部長，可以做到嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:24.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:36.672000+08:00","text":"是，我想委員的指教是對的，我下去之後會根據這個事件要求全面釐清相關事情和這個不幸事件發生的經過。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:37.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:39.953000+08:00","text":"您剛剛提到的，整個SOP他有沒有做到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:40.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:41.474000+08:00","text":"應有的SOP是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:42.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:45.052000+08:00","text":"我釐清之後就來跟委員做一個詳盡的報告。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:46.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:06:59.124000+08:00","text":"接下來本席首先要請教的是PDA（美國總統提用權），也就是美國免費提供臺灣軍事援助，我們是不用出錢的。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:06:59.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:07:02.967000+08:00","text":"這本來是美事一樁，院長應該也非常清楚。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:07:04.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:07:49.035000+08:00","text":"去年7月底，美國白宮首度宣布要動用PDA（美國總統提用權），對臺灣軍事提供價值3.45億美元，也就是110億臺幣的裝備，這聽起來非常的美好，但是在今年的9月11日，美國白宮也在……國防部監察長發出的「美國國防部用『總統提用權』供給台灣裝備之追蹤及監察評估報告」裡面，說明這些PDA裝備沒有進行有效的品質管理；你可以看到上面發布的單位是美國的Inspector General。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:07:49.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:07:50.996000+08:00","text":"我先問一下卓院長，您有看過這份報告嗎？","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:07:50.996000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:07:55.054000+08:00","text":"詳細的報告內容我沒有全部看到，但是知道這個過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:07:55.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:07:59.112000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:07:59.112000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:03.170000+08:00","text":"部長，請問您有看過這份報告嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:03.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:05.072000+08:00","text":"他們有跟我做過相關的簡報。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:05.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:06.573000+08:00","text":"OK，做簡報，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:07.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:14.680000+08:00","text":"既然是這樣的話，我先問一下院長，因為這一題是院長的，要確認一下院長對國政是否瞭解。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:15.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:16.822000+08:00","text":"請部長先稍等一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:18.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:21.706000+08:00","text":"這3.45億的PDA項目，目前有多少抵達臺灣了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:23.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:24.668000+08:00","text":"這應該是要問部長才……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:24.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:26.009000+08:00","text":"我要先問你，等一下再問他。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:26.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:26.970000+08:00","text":"這個我真的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:27.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:27.450000+08:00","text":"你不確定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:28.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:30.293000+08:00","text":"我不會每天去問多少進度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:30.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:31.133000+08:00","text":"好，部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:31.133000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:33.374000+08:00","text":"我想詳細的品項基於臺美之間的默契，關於……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:33.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:34.315000+08:00","text":"我問的是多少比例已經來到臺灣了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:34.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:34.475000+08:00","text":"3.45億的第一批。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:34.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:36.817000+08:00","text":"我們正在跟美國的國防部互相協調……錯！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:36.817000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:37.817000+08:00","text":"百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:36.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:38.057000+08:00","text":"我們在跟美國的國防部協調相關PDA的……錯！","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:38.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:39.057000+08:00","text":"百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:39.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:40.057000+08:00","text":"相關的這些PDA……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:38.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:08:38.498000+08:00","text":"3.45億的第一批百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:08:38.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:09:01.954000+08:00","text":"報告裡面都有寫、報告裡面都有寫！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:09:01.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:09:09.523000+08:00","text":"來，我們看一下，那你一定也不知道3.45億裡面的第一批貨送往臺灣的時間點在什麼時候吧？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:09:10.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:09:13.568000+08:00","text":"因為前面一個問題你都不知道了，後面一個問題顯然你也不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:09:13.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:09:48.239000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我直接告訴大家，頭2架飛機飛來臺灣是在去年的12月底左右，這個期程是去年的12月底一路到今年的3月中，這是第一批美國的PDA開始提供臺灣軍事支援，從去年的12月到今年的3月中左右的這一段時間，一共就是110億元的軍事協助，但是我們從去年底到3月中左右收到的第一批PDA軍備卻是長這樣！","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:09:48.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:09:53.941000+08:00","text":"我們看一下，有各種發霉或是受潮的情況。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:09:53.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:02.005000+08:00","text":"請問國防部是在什麼時候知道PDA的軍備，我們所收到的有這樣子受損跟發霉的損壞這件事情的？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:02.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:03.005000+08:00","text":"我們在接收的時候當然就已經知道有這樣子的狀況，我們也立即反映給美方，然後雙方要共同檢視來進行檢整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:03.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:04.005000+08:00","text":"是的，後來呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:04.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:05.005000+08:00","text":"你們在第一時間就向美方要求說明，然後後來呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:05.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:06.005000+08:00","text":"後面大家就來進行共同的檢整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:02.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:02.625000+08:00","text":"好，請問如何處理？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:02.625000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:08.662750+08:00","text":"檢整之後就要去檢查這些防彈背心，跟您提到的這些彈藥本身還是不是堪用，我們最後檢整的結果，還是堪用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:08.662750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:14.700500+08:00","text":"好，我們看一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:14.700500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:20.738250+08:00","text":"不過在程序上，我們認為他在交運的這個程序的過程當中，有這樣的疏失，我們還是要求要改正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:20.738250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:26.776000+08:00","text":"好的，了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:26.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:10:27.836000+08:00","text":"我們看一下那個棧板的圖片，好不好？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:10:58.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:13.531000+08:00","text":"它是這樣子一箱一箱運進來的，你可以看到這個圖片，這樣一箱一箱運進來的，因為那個底下一個一個的棧板，我們用那個棧板來計算的話，這個一塊一塊的棧板，就是一箱一箱的運。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:14.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:21.653000+08:00","text":"請問一下，以這個棧板的數量來計算的話，請問國防部知道有多少的比例是有受潮的情況嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:21.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:22.653000+08:00","text":"就我了解，有關輕兵器彈藥混雜在原封箱跟零頭彈，產製的這個年份從72年到108年不等，總計是……我想詳細的數字，我覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:22.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:23.653000+08:00","text":"你也不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:23.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:24.653000+08:00","text":"因為你們都沒有看報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:24.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:25.653000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是我不認為我應該要在這個公開的場合說，大概是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:23.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:24.126000+08:00","text":"可是它是一個公開的報告呀！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:53.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:11:59.907000+08:00","text":"對，這一個部分只是占其中的……我只能告訴你……67%。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:11:59.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:12:16.392000+08:00","text":"我不想浪費時間了，我現在所說的東西都不是秘密，它是公開在網路上可以看到的，美國公開的報告，這樣子運過來的產品，67%都是受潮的。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:12:17.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:12:17.953000+08:00","text":"我們接下來繼續看……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:12:18.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:12:31.660000+08:00","text":"如果您講的是防彈背心，我們接受援贈的項目有好幾萬到十幾萬件不等，只有四千餘件是受潮、發霉的狀況。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:12:31.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:12:34.121000+08:00","text":"不是，所以嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:12:34.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:12:52.678000+08:00","text":"防彈背心的部分是這樣，有關子彈的部分，您提到的大概就是有些是期限的問題，但是我跟您提，傳統的彈藥、批號彈藥裡面，其實並沒有期限問題，所以它還是要經過檢整之後，看算是堪不堪用，經過檢整之後還是堪用的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:12:53.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:12:58.183000+08:00","text":"是，所以最重要的是抗彈板的部分，你們要確定絕對不能再用了。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:12:58.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:10.449000+08:00","text":"因為其實像防彈衣、抗彈板、子彈跟班用機槍的部分，很多都有受潮、損毀、發霉跟包裝不良的用品，所以它被局部公開了。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:10.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:17.633000+08:00","text":"接下來，國軍確實花了數週整理、烘乾跟庫存受損的軍品。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:18.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:28.919000+08:00","text":"我想請問國軍針對這一批受損的PDA裝備，我們有沒有花經費來處理、處置？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:30.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:44.588000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我剛剛已經有透露一些我們接收的狀況，但是我不覺得我應該要再進一步就每一項的品項跟委員在公開的場合做簡報。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:45.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:46.829000+08:00","text":"不，不是每一項，就是整體而言。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:47.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:49.990000+08:00","text":"我現在要說明的就是，剛剛已經說了，是少量的有狀況，經過跟美方反映，也共同來檢整之後，我們認為是堪用的，這個就是運用我們自己本身的……","quality":0.362},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:50.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:13:51.151000+08:00","text":"很少量嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:13:51.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:14:19.434000+08:00","text":"美國國防部光是他們自己在回收這一批東西，花了2,405個小時，花了62萬美金，也花了另外11萬美金去更換105個防彈板跟3件戰術背心，這是還沒有運到臺灣的部分。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:14:20.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:14:31.658000+08:00","text":"我們臺灣也花了好幾個禮拜，針對受潮、發霉的PDA裝備，進行拆包、乾燥跟盤點，而且根據報告裡面來說，我們國軍是有出資的。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:14:32.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:14:37.323000+08:00","text":"我想請問我們花了多少錢在「免費的最貴」的這件事情上面？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:14:38.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:14:40.830000+08:00","text":"又是動支了哪一筆的預算來做相關的盤整？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:14:42.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:14:57.875000+08:00","text":"我覺得我要跟委員報告，我們所接收的，您剛剛也提到了，這個公開的資料顯示這是110億這麼大的一個款項，接收的項目跟時間，我們認為是屬於機密，不宜公開。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:14:57.875000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:14:58.875000+08:00","text":"這是美國公開的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:14:58.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:05.619000+08:00","text":"其中只有四千餘件是受潮發霉的狀況，我們本身運用自己既有的維持的能量就可以將這些東西加以檢整，鑑定是不是還足以堪用。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:08.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:11.123000+08:00","text":"請問這些受潮損壞的東西會被計算在第一批3.45億美元的PDA quota裡面嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:11.123000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:12.123000+08:00","text":"因為它還是堪用啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:11.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:12.824000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，有些不堪用的退回去了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:12.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:21.744000+08:00","text":"我說退回去的部分就已經算在裡面，還是會重新再送回來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:21.744000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:30.664000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我不曉得您資訊的來源是哪裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:30.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:32.946000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經告訴你了，我們回到白皮書的那一頁，也就是紫色的那一頁。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:15:44.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:15:59.982000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經告訴你了，這是Inspector General，他們美國監察院公開的報告，我剛剛也問你們有沒有看過，一位告訴我說有向您簡報過，一位告訴說你們知情，知道有這樣子的說明。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:00.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:10.950000+08:00","text":"我剛剛所提出的每一個內容都是來自報告裡面的公開資訊，你們不要自己沒有看報告的細節跟內容就說這個是秘密，這個沒有，這是網路上都能查得到的事情。","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:11.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:12.171000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們是依照我們接收的狀況來跟委員報告。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:12.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:15.828375+08:00","text":"我接收到的狀況也沒有錯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:15.828375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:19.485750+08:00","text":"來自於美方的報告也沒有錯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:19.485750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:23.143125+08:00","text":"我時間真的很不夠，最後來看一下最後一張好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:23.143125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:26.800500+08:00","text":"因為美方報告裡面提到的不一定是已經交運給我們的，我現在是講我們已經接收的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:26.800500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:30.457875+08:00","text":"是，我提到的都是已經交運的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:30.457875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:34.115250+08:00","text":"來，看最後一張……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:34.115250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:37.772625+08:00","text":"我們接收的狀況才是我們真實面對的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:37.772625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:41.430000+08:00","text":"這上面寫到的都是我們接收的狀況，它是根據來到臺灣的PDA所做的整個調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:41.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:53.195000+08:00","text":"最後，我們向你們索資，我們在驗貨的時候，是由美方押運人員與國防部負責簽收報關及出關作業，但在他們的調查裡面是被非美方的承包商接手給國防部，請問兩方的說法哪一方是正確的？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:53.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:16:55.695000+08:00","text":"您現在講的是指……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-08T16:16:55.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:00.852143+08:00","text":"沒關係，下次再問，時間到了，不好意思，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:01.152143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:08.580714+08:00","text":"謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:08.880714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:13.737857+08:00","text":"接下來我們請登記第4號林岱樺委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:00:31 - 16:17:07","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（16時1分）謝謝院長。我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。我第一個想問的是國家級警報在2024年1月9號大選前曾經發布過，那時候還把衛星寫成飛彈，造成了人民的恐慌。這次在雙十國慶的前夕，不僅不具名的國安高層放了消息告訴大家，大陸準備要進行環臺的軍演，國防部也發了新聞稿說明對方將在雙十國慶發布會經過我國ADIZ的衛星，請問這次會發布國家級警報嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：先跟委員報告，您說的第一次在1月份的那個警報，確實在用詞上不夠精準。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我想各個相關單位也做了事後的檢討，已經有相當的改進，我想未來這種事情不至於發生。至於說現在在國慶之前，在臺灣海峽上面，確實這段時間以來都有一些大大小小的，各種中國海空軍的演習，是真的！我們也充分掌握各種動向，我還是認為對國家的安全沒有妨礙，對人民的安心，我們要讓人民感覺到國家是可靠的。"],["徐委員巧芯：同意！目前國防部已經發布，知道10月10號國慶日當天的時候會有一個火箭通過臺灣的ADIZ上空，請問當天我們會有發布國家級警報這樣子的規劃嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：就我們現在所獲得的情資理解，它是由西昌發射之後，往西太平洋的方向飛行，會經過我們臺灣的防空識別區，但在經過我們這裡的時候，高度應該已經到卡門線。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以不會嘛！所以沒有預計……"],["顧部長立雄：就卡門線……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒有預計發布就對了！"],["顧部長立雄：但是我們仍然會應用各種情監偵手段來掌握整個彈道方向。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，瞭解，知道，確定了喔！","接下來要問的是顧部長，剛才您已經證實在清泉崗基地發生的悲劇是有一名士兵身亡，令人感到遺憾！但是這個過程也非常的懸疑，到目前為止都沒有辦法確認該員中槍的原因是什麼，是自戕？是操作不當？還是被流彈打到？所以我想請部長現場替我們說明空軍執行T91步槍的打靶射擊，從打靶到清槍的SOP是什麼。"],["顧部長立雄：我想細節的部分，我現在也沒有辦法詳細的回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？為什麼不能詳細的回答？"],["顧部長立雄：因為你問的等於是打靶流程的SOP嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！您當過兵嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我想這個部分我現在沒有辦法有一個說……但是基本上來講，它都會有一線、二線，然後會有準備，就我現在相關的理解，他是在二線的準備當中，也許在這個過程當中有一些……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是T91步槍的打靶射擊，從打靶到清槍的SOP。"],["顧部長立雄：應該他就是第一線。我想，詳細的SOP我坦誠跟委員報告，我沒有辦法現在跟委員做詳細的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，您是新任的部長，但是這些SOP您應該要瞭解。我給您一些時間，因為您不是軍人出身的部長，但是我也必須很坦誠地告訴你，這是一個國防部長最基本應該要瞭解的。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教，我下去瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天有國軍向我反映，他說每一次打靶的時候他都很害怕，因為清槍的人第一，很多人沒有按照程序來，卡彈時的安全，軍官以為處理好了，結果槍枝還是故障，有時候是檢查的人有問題，有時候根本就是槍枝故障、有問題。所以這邊要特別跟部長來拜託，調查的時候請不要只推給士兵，說他不清楚流程、是自己的疏失。人既然是非自然死亡，我認為也應該請檢調一起進來查核，而且這不是單一士兵的擔憂，是許多軍人都有的共同恐懼，國防部應該要全面地改善跟檢討打靶槍枝以及槍枝檢查的SOP，部長，可以做到嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我想委員的指教是對的，我下去之後會根據這個事件要求全面釐清相關事情和這個不幸事件發生的經過。您剛剛提到的，整個SOP他有沒有做到？應有的SOP是什麼？我釐清之後就來跟委員做一個詳盡的報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：接下來本席首先要請教的是PDA（美國總統提用權），也就是美國免費提供臺灣軍事援助，我們是不用出錢的。這本來是美事一樁，院長應該也非常清楚。去年7月底，美國白宮首度宣布要動用PDA（美國總統提用權），對臺灣軍事提供價值3.45億美元，也就是110億臺幣的裝備，這聽起來非常的美好，但是在今年的9月11日，美國白宮也在……國防部監察長發出的「美國國防部用『總統提用權』供給台灣裝備之追蹤及監察評估報告」裡面，說明這些PDA裝備沒有進行有效的品質管理；你可以看到上面發布的單位是美國的Inspector General。我先問一下卓院長，您有看過這份報告嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：詳細的報告內容我沒有全部看到，但是知道這個過程。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好。部長，請問您有看過這份報告嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們有跟我做過相關的簡報。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，做簡報，好。","既然是這樣的話，我先問一下院長，因為這一題是院長的，要確認一下院長對國政是否瞭解。請部長先稍等一下。","這3.45億的PDA項目，目前有多少抵達臺灣了？"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該是要問部長才……"],["徐委員巧芯：我要先問你，等一下再問他。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我真的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不會每天去問多少進度。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，部長？"],["顧部長立雄：我想詳細的品項基於臺美之間的默契，關於……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是多少比例已經來到臺灣了？3.45億的第一批。"],["顧部長立雄：我們正在跟美國的國防部互相協調……"],["徐委員巧芯：錯！百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！"],["顧部長立雄：我們在跟美國的國防部協調相關PDA的……"],["徐委員巧芯：錯！百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！"],["顧部長立雄：相關的這些PDA……"],["徐委員巧芯：3.45億的第一批百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！報告裡面都有寫、報告裡面都有寫！","來，我們看一下，那你一定也不知道3.45億裡面的第一批貨送往臺灣的時間點在什麼時候吧？因為前面一個問題你都不知道了，後面一個問題顯然你也不知道。","沒關係，我直接告訴大家，頭2架飛機飛來臺灣是在去年的12月底左右，這個期程是去年的12月底一路到今年的3月中，這是第一批美國的PDA開始提供臺灣軍事支援，從去年的12月到今年的3月中左右的這一段時間，一共就是110億元的軍事協助，但是我們從去年底到3月中左右收到的第一批PDA軍備卻是長這樣！我們看一下，有各種發霉或是受潮的情況。請問國防部是在什麼時候知道PDA的軍備，我們所收到的有這樣子受損跟發霉的損壞這件事情的？"],["顧部長立雄：我們在接收的時候當然就已經知道有這樣子的狀況，我們也立即反映給美方，然後雙方要共同檢視來進行檢整。"],["徐委員巧芯：是的，後來呢？你們在第一時間就向美方要求說明，然後後來呢？"],["顧部長立雄：後面大家就來進行共同的檢整。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，請問如何處理？"],["顧部長立雄：檢整之後就要去檢查這些防彈背心，跟您提到的這些彈藥本身還是不是堪用，我們最後檢整的結果，還是堪用。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下……"],["顧部長立雄：不過在程序上，我們認為他在交運的這個程序的過程當中，有這樣的疏失，我們還是要求要改正。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，了解。我們看一下那個棧板的圖片，好不好？它是這樣子一箱一箱運進來的，你可以看到這個圖片，這樣一箱一箱運進來的，因為那個底下一個一個的棧板，我們用那個棧板來計算的話，這個一塊一塊的棧板，就是一箱一箱的運。請問一下，以這個棧板的數量來計算的話，請問國防部知道有多少的比例是有受潮的情況嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：就我了解，有關輕兵器彈藥混雜在原封箱跟零頭彈，產製的這個年份從72年到108年不等，總計是……我想詳細的數字，我覺得……"],["徐委員巧芯：你也不知道？因為你們都沒有看報告。"],["顧部長立雄：我知道，但是我不認為我應該要在這個公開的場合說，大概是……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是它是一個公開的報告呀！"],["顧部長立雄：對，這一個部分只是占其中的……我只能告訴你……"],["徐委員巧芯：67%。我不想浪費時間了，我現在所說的東西都不是秘密，它是公開在網路上可以看到的，美國公開的報告，這樣子運過來的產品，67%都是受潮的。我們接下來繼續看……"],["顧部長立雄：如果您講的是防彈背心，我們接受援贈的項目有好幾萬到十幾萬件不等，只有四千餘件是受潮、發霉的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，所以嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：防彈背心的部分是這樣，有關子彈的部分，您提到的大概就是有些是期限的問題，但是我跟您提，傳統的彈藥、批號彈藥裡面，其實並沒有期限問題，所以它還是要經過檢整之後，看算是堪不堪用，經過檢整之後還是堪用的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以最重要的是抗彈板的部分，你們要確定絕對不能再用了。因為其實像防彈衣、抗彈板、子彈跟班用機槍的部分，很多都有受潮、損毀、發霉跟包裝不良的用品，所以它被局部公開了。接下來，國軍確實花了數週整理、烘乾跟庫存受損的軍品。我想請問國軍針對這一批受損的PDA裝備，我們有沒有花經費來處理、處置？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經有透露一些我們接收的狀況，但是我不覺得我應該要再進一步就每一項的品項跟委員在公開的場合做簡報。"],["徐委員巧芯：不，不是每一項，就是整體而言。"],["顧部長立雄：我現在要說明的就是，剛剛已經說了，是少量的有狀況，經過跟美方反映，也共同來檢整之後，我們認為是堪用的，這個就是運用我們自己本身的……"],["徐委員巧芯：很少量嗎？美國國防部光是他們自己在回收這一批東西，花了2,405個小時，花了62萬美金，也花了另外11萬美金去更換105個防彈板跟3件戰術背心，這是還沒有運到臺灣的部分。我們臺灣也花了好幾個禮拜，針對受潮、發霉的PDA裝備，進行拆包、乾燥跟盤點，而且根據報告裡面來說，我們國軍是有出資的。我想請問我們花了多少錢在「免費的最貴」的這件事情上面？又是動支了哪一筆的預算來做相關的盤整？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得我要跟委員報告，我們所接收的，您剛剛也提到了，這個公開的資料顯示這是110億這麼大的一個款項，接收的項目跟時間，我們認為是屬於機密，不宜公開。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是美國公開的。"],["顧部長立雄：其中只有四千餘件是受潮發霉的狀況，我們本身運用自己既有的維持的能量就可以將這些東西加以檢整，鑑定是不是還足以堪用。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這些受潮損壞的東西會被計算在第一批3.45億美元的PDA quota裡面嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為它還是堪用啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有、沒有，有些不堪用的退回去了。我說退回去的部分就已經算在裡面，還是會重新再送回來？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我不曉得您資訊的來源是哪裡。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛已經告訴你了，我們回到白皮書的那一頁，也就是紫色的那一頁。我剛剛已經告訴你了，這是Inspector General，他們美國監察院公開的報告，我剛剛也問你們有沒有看過，一位告訴我說有向您簡報過，一位告訴說你們知情，知道有這樣子的說明。我剛剛所提出的每一個內容都是來自報告裡面的公開資訊，你們不要自己沒有看報告的細節跟內容就說這個是秘密，這個沒有，這是網路上都能查得到的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們是依照我們接收的狀況來跟委員報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：我接收到的狀況也沒有錯啊！來自於美方的報告也沒有錯啊！我時間真的很不夠，最後來看一下最後一張好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：因為美方報告裡面提到的不一定是已經交運給我們的，我現在是講我們已經接收的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我提到的都是已經交運的部分。來，看最後一張……"],["顧部長立雄：我們接收的狀況才是我們真實面對的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：這上面寫到的都是我們接收的狀況，它是根據來到臺灣的PDA所做的整個調查。","最後，我們向你們索資，我們在驗貨的時候，是由美方押運人員與國防部負責簽收報關及出關作業，但在他們的調查裡面是被非美方的承包商接手給國防部，請問兩方的說法哪一方是正確的？"],["顧部長立雄：您現在講的是指……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒關係，下次再問，時間到了，不好意思，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第4號林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}