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非常的困難那時候的緬甸局勢是因內戰而動盪不安而且當時是有排華是幾乎是消滅式的排華在逃亡過程當中不可能有這些身份證的遺留"},{"start":304.392,"end":321.468,"text":"而且就人權的角度許多在泰米地區並未擁有國籍在臺灣他又以非法身份居留他們並不是惡意要規劃為臺灣人民而是他們自己認定我就是中華人民共和國就是中華人民的我們臺灣的這個國家的國人"},{"start":325.114,"end":344.367,"text":"好 這個也因為政府在戰亂當中國家開出的支票至今未兌現國家開出了什麼這個假撤退真留守所以這群人說好啦我們這個不管是在蔣介石時代或者蔣經國時代我們就要撤退但是還是讓他們真正的留守在當地"},{"start":344.827,"end":374.027,"text":"所以真的是大概60%的人就是為國犧牲僅有3%的人能夠回到臺灣對於他們身為臺灣人民對於在國家認同路上是非常艱辛的所以在我們孤軍的第一代已經逐漸的去世了第二代也接受在當地當中也接受中華民國的傳統教育所以在當地他們是寫繁體文"},{"start":375.108,"end":389.624,"text":"那包括在這個孤軍後裔他們都形容自己像流浪狗一樣只是因為他沒有身份跟居留證也沒有辦法享有健保在台灣他們的窘境是什麼從事黑工工資也常常被剝削"},{"start":390.465,"end":407.979,"text":"例如工地的出工的日薪是1800他們卻只能拿到800塊那在也不敢向業主反映也因為怕被檢舉生病的時候也只能買成藥沒有錢也只能忍受痛苦所以在這疫情當中的疫苗他們是沒有辦法出來施打的"},{"start":408.539,"end":433.131,"text":"好我們合法的在我們已經規劃完成的在我們台灣當中已經形成的一個區域的特色比如新北市的中華新街地區桃園中正新村眷村文化中橫的博旺社區高雄的美容金工社區但是在相關他們沒有規劃國籍的後裔其實都散在這些區域當中"},{"start":433.931,"end":460.287,"text":"好那這個一樣的故事兩樣其實在本辦所接觸的各個案例當中我就舉一個最明顯的一對兄妹同父同母妹妹是喬生的身份回國所以他獲得中華人獲得中華民國國公民的身份就是我們台灣籍而哥哥呢就是以外籍的身份來就讀他是沒有辦法取得公民的身份那所以呢直到只能"},{"start":461.227,"end":484.273,"text":"被遷往北區之後他就以外配的身份留在臺灣那現在也可以取得中華民國身份證可是他不願意因為他如果現在申請的話他的資格叫做外配可是這位陳情人他說我就是中華民國的人我就是臺灣人我要拿到中華民國的國籍你看他那種堅定"},{"start":485.573,"end":509.271,"text":"以身為中華民國國籍這是他此生最重要的榮耀好這邊本期具體要求院長你願不願意在正式這樣的一個人權他們已經在臺灣還有1萬多人從1979年這個退役這個來臺之後到現在1萬多人這個是需要跨部會合作的願不願意啟動第4次的專案"},{"start":510.812,"end":531.632,"text":"辦理自台泰國緬甸地區國慶後裔入台事宜呢?院長是的,在學生時代也看過《抑鬱》這本書啦當時也是看到熱血沸騰,非常的感動那我所知道在112年我們做過一次的處理,行政做過一次處理那個結論其中一項就是"},{"start":533.138,"end":546.627,"text":"這次當時所做的決定已經是最終的處理所以比照97年的決議來做處理依照移民法 讓這些人進來所以本席才講說你願不願意評估評估啟動第4次我們現在看看第3次所做的這個決定為什麼是最終決定"},{"start":555.433,"end":577.988,"text":"小委會這邊有比較清楚﹖所以你願意﹖那如果說之後﹖所以你的意思﹖有新的狀況發生﹖那足以再讓我們啟動的話﹖現在本期就告訴你這個資料了﹖還有1萬多人﹖1萬多人無國籍﹖來在台灣﹖他現在就成為黑富王﹖他現在上班工作﹖就是黑富王﹖拿著薪資少﹖就醫沒有權力﹖就學沒有權力﹖"},{"start":580.049,"end":595.085,"text":"那能不能依照112年所做的決定就是依照97年所做的決議依照這個移民法來做相關的處理院長我還是這樣您願不願把這邊還是交入評估因為他跨部會您組著一個政委"},{"start":595.706,"end":614.779,"text":"那我們認真的評估這樣的一個第4次或者也就是說你院長在任願意就是呢做事這樣的黑戶繼續在台灣生存讓他自生自滅沒有國籍沒有身分證沒有就醫權竟然我們容許台灣人權的國家容許這樣的狀況在台灣發繼續"},{"start":616.44,"end":617.18,"text":"委員 因為我們沒有看到這一萬多人的真實資料"},{"start":632.668,"end":649.968,"text":"那因為最後一次的專案處理,到現在97年的原則都還是有效的那你願不願意再評估呢?都還是有效,我們可以先了解這一萬多人的具體資料,如果照委員現在所述,那可能他現在叫做非法拘留的狀態"},{"start":651.049,"end":654.672,"text":"現在要的就是院長你願不願意啟動評估我只讓你評估我沒有叫你一定要承諾本席喔"},{"start":672.885,"end":687.633,"text":"對於一個人權的國家我們怎麼可以容許我們自己認定為台灣人的一個國人他們回歸自己台灣的祖國竟然我們還做事是不是願意啟動第4次評估呢"},{"start":687.853,"end":688.193,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上"},{"start":717.068,"end":743.001,"text":"這個國軍後裔證明他是第一部院長您願不願意啟動這樣第4次的專案 評估這個評估就是我們收集資料 主責哪一個政委還是秘書長還是你要讓國防部來做主責 我也沒意見但絕對不要是僑委會 對不起 僑委會國防部跟內政部 我們來手上的資料再跟委員請教 把委員的資料提供我不想聯絡那麼多部會 主責單位是誰"},{"start":745.745,"end":771.485,"text":"我們是不是如果是移民法我們請內政部內政部移民署做主責來跟委員把資料收集資料我們來對對看需要往後走我們就繼續看怎麼方式來處理所以你還不願啟動第4次的評估先收集資料嗎這個就是一個過程我想院長您既然是國家的行政院長請你把格局拿高我本人實在很難忍受"},{"start":772.185,"end":787.467,"text":"我本期不能忍受一個人權自由民主的國家我們還容許有黑富在臺灣而且他們重新就是認定我就是臺灣人我要取得中華民國的國籍本期這個是人權民主的價值"},{"start":789.069,"end":800.304,"text":"委員我們不曉得這一萬多人已經在臺灣居留多久而且如果他們是在97年以前就進來的那表示你是要代替院長做這個評估嗎好 院長請回答"},{"start":805.39,"end":831.964,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過了我們請內政部把所有的資料所以你不願意做第4個評估先做收集資料這就是一個過程嘛就從這樣開始那如果這個資料收集出來確實這麼多人在這裡依照現在的法令依照現在的法令沒有辦法處理我們會進行以下的處理啊好 那兩個月內完成資料的收整我也把本辦公室想也請委員提供OK 兩個月內請內政部來收整這樣的資料好 以上謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:24.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:26.996000+08:00","text":"主席，有請卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:26.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:27.758000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:27.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:38.859000+08:00","text":"謝謝林委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:38.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:17:54.392000+08:00","text":"院長，首先我真的要在這個正式的國會殿堂當中表達，我們國軍在這次救災當中全力支援，尤其是在這兩個月內重創高雄的颱風之後，在這邊我深深地一鞠躬感謝。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:17:54.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:18:06.722000+08:00","text":"第二個，也針對剛才所發生的事故，我們士兵在訓練當中貫穿臉部而死亡，本席在這邊希望得到院長兩個承諾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:18:06.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:18:12.047000+08:00","text":"第一個，趕快加速調查原因；第二個，後端的撫卹。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:18:12.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:18:21.034000+08:00","text":"我想現在也是家屬最難過的時候，部長怎麼來看本席的這兩個訴求？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:18:23.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:18:46.105000+08:00","text":"報告委員，除了剛剛部長在這裡初步就手上的資料答復之外，我們會請空軍司令部做統一的調查跟說明，這個一定會給家屬跟社會清楚地交代，同時用這個事件，對於未來軍方在打靶訓練過程當中，如何做得更安全，當然是個重要的課題，我們會嚴肅地面對。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:18:46.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:18:52.588000+08:00","text":"好，在撫卹的部分，願不願意在這裡也做個……在之後的報告、公開的公告上也做個說明呢？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:18:53.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:18:54.222000+08:00","text":"撫卹的部分。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-08T16:18:58.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:02.887000+08:00","text":"撫卹我們當然會按照規定來，然後從優撫卹。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:02.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:03.408000+08:00","text":"好，從優撫卹。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:03.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:11.713000+08:00","text":"本席正式質詢孤軍後裔回國，國家的承諾不能再延遲。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:11.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:22.499000+08:00","text":"第一個，我針對亞細亞的孤兒（孤軍緣起）做個說明；第二個，孤軍在國外的狀況，跟國內在辦理國籍上的困境；最後，本席有具體的要求。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:23.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:33.748000+08:00","text":"人權作家柏楊在「異域」書中有提到「一群被遺忘的人，他們戰死，便與草木同朽；他們戰勝，仍是天地不容」。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:34.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:39.633000+08:00","text":"這群人認定他是中華民國的國籍，可是卻不能回歸中華民國這個祖國。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:44.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:55+08:00","text":"亞細亞的孤兒要追溯到1949年國共內戰失利，隨後在當地成立了一支非常特殊的軍事力量。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:55.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:19:59.042000+08:00","text":"當初撤退來臺一萬一千三百多人。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:19:59.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:20:32.659000+08:00","text":"在當地的社會當中，是受到歧視及排擠的，在當地也沒有辦法有他的身分，所以他們所面對的困境就是在當地的教育、醫療是嚴重受到限制的，因為他沒有正式的身分證，也因為沒有身分證，缺乏合法的工作機會，後裔家庭是生活貧困的，依賴低薪或不穩定的工作，就業困難導致經濟困境，在當地的社會地位邊緣化。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:20:33.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:20:51.209000+08:00","text":"到我們國內來的，目前已列管在案的，包括其後裔，總共有16萬人，但是還未處理的，我相信國防部也應該有列管，有將近一萬多人，本席現在是針對這一萬多個在臺灣沒有國籍的人來發聲。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:20:58.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:21:24.498000+08:00","text":"臺灣長期透過「僑生回國升學教育政策」吸引海外華人，泰緬的僑生因此來臺，所以這一群人很多是以學生的身分來臺居留，過期之後，他們就回不去，因為在那邊沒有身分證，所以他也不能回去，在這邊他又因為學籍也到期，所以面臨變成黑戶的困境。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:21:25.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:21:35.282000+08:00","text":"政府曾經三次啟動專案，最後一次結束後所遺留下來的粗估也有超過1萬人。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:21:35.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:21:51.592000+08:00","text":"根據監察院的報告，為了因應「滯台泰緬專案」，我們曾經最後一次開放辦理，只有2天，2008年7月15日到16日，就2天，結果登記875人。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:21:52.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:22:40.448000+08:00","text":"這個案件涉及的政府機關很多，國防部、僑委會、外交部、內政部戶政司及移民署，光是機關依法要求要有出生證明這件事情，就這麼一個初步的證件，非常的困難，那時候的緬甸局勢因內戰而動盪不安，而且當時有排華，幾乎是消滅式的排華，在逃亡過程當中，不可能有這些身分證遺留，而且就人權的角度，許多在泰緬地區並未擁有國籍，在臺灣他又以非法身分居留，他們並不是惡意要歸化為臺灣人民，而是他們自己認定就是我們臺灣這個國家的國人。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:22:44.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:22:52.079000+08:00","text":"這個也是因為在戰亂當中國家開出了「支票」，至今未兌現，國家開出了什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:22:52.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:23:17.416000+08:00","text":"「假撤退，真留守」，所以這群人不管是在蔣介石時代或者蔣經國時代，我們要撤退，但是還是讓他們真正的留守在當地，當中大概60%的人為國犧牲，僅有3%的人能夠回到臺灣，所以他們身為臺灣人民，在國家認同的路上是非常艱辛的。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:23:19.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:23:33.007000+08:00","text":"我們孤軍的第一代已經逐漸去世了，第二代在當地也接受中華民國的傳統教育，所以在當地他們是寫繁體文。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:23:36.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:23:46.182000+08:00","text":"孤軍後裔都形容自己像流浪狗一樣，只因為他沒有身分及居留證，也沒有辦法享有健保，在臺灣他們的窘境是什麼？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:23:46.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:24:06.959000+08:00","text":"從事黑工，工資也常常被剝削，例如工地粗工的日薪是1,800，他們卻只能拿到800塊，也不敢向業主反映，因為怕被檢舉，生病的時候，也只能買成藥，沒有錢也只能忍受痛苦，所以在這個疫情當中的疫苗他們是沒有辦法出來施打的。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:24:08.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:24:32.111000+08:00","text":"至於合法的，我們已經歸化完成的，孤軍在我們臺灣當中已經形成一個區域的特色，譬如新北市中和華新街地區、桃園忠貞新村眷村文化園區、中橫的博望社區、高雄的美濃精功社區，但是沒有歸化國籍的後裔其實都散在這些區域當中。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:24:34.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:25:22.052000+08:00","text":"一樣的故事兩樣情，在本辦所接觸的各個案例當中，我就舉一個最明顯的，一對兄妹同父同母，妹妹是以僑生的身分回國，所以他獲得中華民國公民的身分，就是我們臺灣籍；而哥哥就是以外籍的身分來就讀，他沒有辦法取得公民的身分，直到被遣返回去之後，他就以外配的身分留在臺灣，現在也可以取得中華民國身分證了，可是他不願意，因為他如果現在申請的話，他的資格叫做外配，可是這一位陳情人他說，我就是中華民國的人，我就是臺灣人，我要拿到中華民國的國籍。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:25:22.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:25:28.496000+08:00","text":"你看他這種堅定，以身為中華民國國籍為他此生最重要的榮耀。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:25:29.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:25:35.602000+08:00","text":"這邊本席具體要求，院長，你願不願意正視這樣的人權？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:25:36.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:25:54.056000+08:00","text":"在臺灣還有一萬多人，從1979年來臺之後到現在還有一萬多人，這個是需要跨部會合作的，請問願不願意啟動第四次的專案，辦理滯臺泰國緬甸地區國軍後裔入臺事宜呢？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:25:55.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:03.485000+08:00","text":"在學生時代我也看過異域這本書，當時也是看到熱血沸騰，非常的感動。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:03.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:21.504000+08:00","text":"我所知道在112年我們做過一次處理，那個結論的其中一項就是當時所做的結論已經是最終的處理，所以比照97年的決議來做處理，依照移民法讓這些人能夠進來。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:21.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:22.625000+08:00","text":"院長，在您收到的112年前，這是第三次，所以本席才講，你願不願意評估啟動第四次？","quality":0.531},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:22.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:35.134000+08:00","text":"我們現在看看第三次所做的這個決定為什麼是最終決定，僑委會這邊有比較清楚的……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:36.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:36.815000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:37.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:42.018000+08:00","text":"如果之後有新的狀況發生，足以再讓我們啟動的話，我們再來研議。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:42.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:26:56.968000+08:00","text":"現在本席就告訴你這個資料，還有一萬多人無國籍，在臺灣他現在就成為黑戶，他現在上班、工作就是黑戶，拿的薪資少，就醫沒有權利，就學沒有權利。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:26:59.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:06.237000+08:00","text":"那能不能依照112年所做的決定，就是依照97年所做的決議，依照移民法來做相關的處理，讓他們個案處理？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:06.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:10.842000+08:00","text":"院長，我還是這樣，您願不願還是把這邊交入評估？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:11.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:33.779000+08:00","text":"因為它跨部會，您主責一個政委，我們認真的評估是否啟動第四次，否則就是你院長在任坐視這樣的黑戶繼續在臺灣生存，讓他自生自滅，沒有國籍、沒有身分證、沒有就醫權，臺灣是人權的國家，竟然容許這樣的狀況在臺灣，就坐視他在臺灣的現狀嗎？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:33.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:34.779000+08:00","text":"是否依照移民法相關的法律現在沒有辦法個案處理，我們請……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:34.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:35.779000+08:00","text":"所以才要第四次的專案，當然沒有辦法依個案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:35.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:36.779000+08:00","text":"我要了解一下是不是沒有辦法處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:35.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:58.276000+08:00","text":"委員，因為我們沒有看到這一萬多人的真實資料，而最後一次的專案處理到現在，97年的原則都還是有效的。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:58.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:27:59.016000+08:00","text":"那你願不願意評估呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:59.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:00.016000+08:00","text":"我們都有接到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:27:59.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:08.968000+08:00","text":"都還是有效，我們可不可以先了解這一萬多人的具體資料，如果照委員現在所述，可能他現在叫做非法居留的狀態。是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:08.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:10.049000+08:00","text":"可是在97年的專案處理當中，當時已經有兩千五百多人來申請，然後有申請的人高達九成五以上都……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:10.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:10.890000+08:00","text":"我現在要的就是，院長，你願不願意啟動評估？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:11.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:13.652000+08:00","text":"我只讓你評估，我沒有叫你一定要承諾本席喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:31.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:46.613000+08:00","text":"對於一個人權的國家，我們怎麼可以容許自己認定為臺灣人的一個國人要回歸自己臺灣的祖國，竟然我們還坐視，是不是願意啟動第四次評估呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:46.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:47.613000+08:00","text":"我們會請僑委會，甚至國防部，蒐集現在的狀況，也再請問……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:47.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:48.613000+08:00","text":"為什麼我說國防部重要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:48.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:28:49.613000+08:00","text":"因為如果這個專案開始的話，他必須先取得國防部的國軍後裔證明，這才是第一步，後續才有內政部、僑委會、移民署等等相關單位，如果這個專案不啟動，在國防部他就不可能拿到國軍後裔的證明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:28:46.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:17.949000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上，這個國軍後裔證明是第一步，但是……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:18.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:22.211000+08:00","text":"院長，您願不願意啟動第四次的專案評估？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:24.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:25.573000+08:00","text":"這個評估就是我們蒐集資料，跟委員請教你手上的資料，我們來對對看……","quality":0.379},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:25.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:28.794000+08:00","text":"主責哪一個政委，還是秘書長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:28.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:35.398000+08:00","text":"還是你要讓國防部來做主責，我也沒意見，但絕對不要是僑委會，對不起，我沒有……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:35.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:40.940000+08:00","text":"僑委會、國防部跟內政部，我們拿手上的資料，再跟委員請教，把委員的資料提供，我們再來……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:40.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:41.940000+08:00","text":"主責單位是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:41.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:42.001000+08:00","text":"我不想聯絡那麼多部會，主責單位是誰？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:45.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:47.907000+08:00","text":"如果是移民法，我們請內政部好了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:48.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:52.911000+08:00","text":"內政部移民署做主責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:52.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:29:58.175000+08:00","text":"來跟委員蒐集資料，我們來對對看，需要往後走的，我們就繼續看要用怎麼方式來處理。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:29:58.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:02.859000+08:00","text":"所以你還不願意啟動第四次的評估，先蒐集資料嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:02.859000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:03.859000+08:00","text":"蒐集資料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:02.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:03.539000+08:00","text":"這是一個過程啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:04.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:24.063000+08:00","text":"院長，你既然是國家的行政院長，請你把格局拿高，本人實在很難忍受、本席不能忍受一個人權自由民主的國家還容許有黑戶在臺灣，而且他們從心就是認定我就是臺灣人，我要取得中華民國的國籍。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:25.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:26.447000+08:00","text":"這個是人權民主的價值，所以院長，你願不願意啟動第四次的評估？","quality":0.37},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:28.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:34.898000+08:00","text":"委員，我們不曉得這一萬多人已經在臺灣居留多久，而且如果他們是在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:34.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:35.898000+08:00","text":"主委，所以要再評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:35.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:37.521000+08:00","text":"他們如果是在97年以前就進來的，那表示他們當時……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:37.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:38.623000+08:00","text":"所以主委，你要代替院長做這個評估嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:38.623000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:39.623000+08:00","text":"不是，我只是在陳述……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:38.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:39.284000+08:00","text":"好，院長，請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:44.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:47.171000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟委員報告過了，我們請內政部把所有的資料跟你的……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:47.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:49.713000+08:00","text":"所以你不願意做第四次的評估，而是先蒐集資料？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:49.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:51.194000+08:00","text":"這就是一個過程嘛，就是這樣開始。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:51.194000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:52.474000+08:00","text":"對啊，所以要找誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:52.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:56.456000+08:00","text":"如果這個資料蒐集起來確實這麼多人在這裡，依照現在的法律……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:56.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:30:57.456000+08:00","text":"好，那什麼時候完成這樣的資料蒐整？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:30:57.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:00.198000+08:00","text":"依照現在的法律沒有辦法處理的話，我們會進行以下的處理，如果現在是這樣……","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:00.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:05.141000+08:00","text":"好，兩個月內完成資料的蒐整，我也會把本辦公室相關的……","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:05.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:05.981000+08:00","text":"也請委員提供。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:07.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:10.283000+08:00","text":"OK，兩個月內請內政部來蒐整這樣的資料。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:10.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:10.964000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:11.464000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:13.178286+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員長佳青","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:13.478286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:14.621143+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:14.921143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:22.064000+08:00","text":"謝謝林岱樺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:22.364000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:32.935429+08:00","text":"報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的列席答詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:33.235429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:38.664000+08:00","text":"現在作以下決定：下次會議進行經濟組之質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:38.964000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:41.535429+08:00","text":"現在繼續處理復議案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T16:31:41.835429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T16:31:51.835429+08:00","text":"本院民進黨黨團針對第2次會議報告事項第三案及第四案之決定提出復議，請公決案。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:17:19 - 16:31:11","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（16時17分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝林委員。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，首先我真的要在這個正式的國會殿堂當中表達，我們國軍在這次救災當中全力支援，尤其是在這兩個月內重創高雄的颱風之後，在這邊我深深地一鞠躬感謝。","第二個，也針對剛才所發生的事故，我們士兵在訓練當中貫穿臉部而死亡，本席在這邊希望得到院長兩個承諾。第一個，趕快加速調查原因；第二個，後端的撫卹。我想現在也是家屬最難過的時候，部長怎麼來看本席的這兩個訴求？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，除了剛剛部長在這裡初步就手上的資料答復之外，我們會請空軍司令部做統一的調查跟說明，這個一定會給家屬跟社會清楚地交代，同時用這個事件，對於未來軍方在打靶訓練過程當中，如何做得更安全，當然是個重要的課題，我們會嚴肅地面對。"],["林委員岱樺：好，在撫卹的部分，願不願意在這裡也做個……在之後的報告、公開的公告上也做個說明呢？撫卹的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：撫卹我們當然會按照規定來，然後從優撫卹。"],["林委員岱樺：好，從優撫卹。","本席正式質詢孤軍後裔回國，國家的承諾不能再延遲。第一個，我針對亞細亞的孤兒（孤軍緣起）做個說明；第二個，孤軍在國外的狀況，跟國內在辦理國籍上的困境；最後，本席有具體的要求。","人權作家柏楊在「異域」書中有提到「一群被遺忘的人，他們戰死，便與草木同朽；他們戰勝，仍是天地不容」。這群人認定他是中華民國的國籍，可是卻不能回歸中華民國這個祖國。亞細亞的孤兒要追溯到1949年國共內戰失利，隨後在當地成立了一支非常特殊的軍事力量。當初撤退來臺一萬一千三百多人。在當地的社會當中，是受到歧視及排擠的，在當地也沒有辦法有他的身分，所以他們所面對的困境就是在當地的教育、醫療是嚴重受到限制的，因為他沒有正式的身分證，也因為沒有身分證，缺乏合法的工作機會，後裔家庭是生活貧困的，依賴低薪或不穩定的工作，就業困難導致經濟困境，在當地的社會地位邊緣化。","到我們國內來的，目前已列管在案的，包括其後裔，總共有16萬人，但是還未處理的，我相信國防部也應該有列管，有將近一萬多人，本席現在是針對這一萬多個在臺灣沒有國籍的人來發聲。臺灣長期透過「僑生回國升學教育政策」吸引海外華人，泰緬的僑生因此來臺，所以這一群人很多是以學生的身分來臺居留，過期之後，他們就回不去，因為在那邊沒有身分證，所以他也不能回去，在這邊他又因為學籍也到期，所以面臨變成黑戶的困境。政府曾經三次啟動專案，最後一次結束後所遺留下來的粗估也有超過1萬人。","根據監察院的報告，為了因應「滯台泰緬專案」，我們曾經最後一次開放辦理，只有2天，2008年7月15日到16日，就2天，結果登記875人。這個案件涉及的政府機關很多，國防部、僑委會、外交部、內政部戶政司及移民署，光是機關依法要求要有出生證明這件事情，就這麼一個初步的證件，非常的困難，那時候的緬甸局勢因內戰而動盪不安，而且當時有排華，幾乎是消滅式的排華，在逃亡過程當中，不可能有這些身分證遺留，而且就人權的角度，許多在泰緬地區並未擁有國籍，在臺灣他又以非法身分居留，他們並不是惡意要歸化為臺灣人民，而是他們自己認定就是我們臺灣這個國家的國人。","這個也是因為在戰亂當中國家開出了「支票」，至今未兌現，國家開出了什麼？「假撤退，真留守」，所以這群人不管是在蔣介石時代或者蔣經國時代，我們要撤退，但是還是讓他們真正的留守在當地，當中大概60%的人為國犧牲，僅有3%的人能夠回到臺灣，所以他們身為臺灣人民，在國家認同的路上是非常艱辛的。","我們孤軍的第一代已經逐漸去世了，第二代在當地也接受中華民國的傳統教育，所以在當地他們是寫繁體文。孤軍後裔都形容自己像流浪狗一樣，只因為他沒有身分及居留證，也沒有辦法享有健保，在臺灣他們的窘境是什麼？從事黑工，工資也常常被剝削，例如工地粗工的日薪是1,800，他們卻只能拿到800塊，也不敢向業主反映，因為怕被檢舉，生病的時候，也只能買成藥，沒有錢也只能忍受痛苦，所以在這個疫情當中的疫苗他們是沒有辦法出來施打的。","至於合法的，我們已經歸化完成的，孤軍在我們臺灣當中已經形成一個區域的特色，譬如新北市中和華新街地區、桃園忠貞新村眷村文化園區、中橫的博望社區、高雄的美濃精功社區，但是沒有歸化國籍的後裔其實都散在這些區域當中。","一樣的故事兩樣情，在本辦所接觸的各個案例當中，我就舉一個最明顯的，一對兄妹同父同母，妹妹是以僑生的身分回國，所以他獲得中華民國公民的身分，就是我們臺灣籍；而哥哥就是以外籍的身分來就讀，他沒有辦法取得公民的身分，直到被遣返回去之後，他就以外配的身分留在臺灣，現在也可以取得中華民國身分證了，可是他不願意，因為他如果現在申請的話，他的資格叫做外配，可是這一位陳情人他說，我就是中華民國的人，我就是臺灣人，我要拿到中華民國的國籍。你看他這種堅定，以身為中華民國國籍為他此生最重要的榮耀。","這邊本席具體要求，院長，你願不願意正視這樣的人權？在臺灣還有一萬多人，從1979年來臺之後到現在還有一萬多人，這個是需要跨部會合作的，請問願不願意啟動第四次的專案，辦理滯臺泰國緬甸地區國軍後裔入臺事宜呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：在學生時代我也看過異域這本書，當時也是看到熱血沸騰，非常的感動。我所知道在112年我們做過一次處理，那個結論的其中一項就是當時所做的結論已經是最終的處理，所以比照97年的決議來做處理，依照移民法讓這些人能夠進來。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，在您收到的112年前，這是第三次，所以本席才講，你願不願意評估啟動第四次？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在看看第三次所做的這個決定為什麼是最終決定，僑委會這邊有比較清楚的……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你的意思……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果之後有新的狀況發生，足以再讓我們啟動的話，我們再來研議。"],["林委員岱樺：現在本席就告訴你這個資料，還有一萬多人無國籍，在臺灣他現在就成為黑戶，他現在上班、工作就是黑戶，拿的薪資少，就醫沒有權利，就學沒有權利。"],["卓院長榮泰：那能不能依照112年所做的決定，就是依照97年所做的決議，依照移民法來做相關的處理，讓他們個案處理？"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我還是這樣，您願不願還是把這邊交入評估？因為它跨部會，您主責一個政委，我們認真的評估是否啟動第四次，否則就是你院長在任坐視這樣的黑戶繼續在臺灣生存，讓他自生自滅，沒有國籍、沒有身分證、沒有就醫權，臺灣是人權的國家，竟然容許這樣的狀況在臺灣，就坐視他在臺灣的現狀嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是否依照移民法相關的法律現在沒有辦法個案處理，我們請……"],["林委員岱樺：所以才要第四次的專案，當然沒有辦法依個案。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要了解一下是不是沒有辦法處理。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，因為我們沒有看到這一萬多人的真實資料，而最後一次的專案處理到現在，97年的原則都還是有效的。"],["林委員岱樺：那你願不願意評估呢？我們都有接到……"],["徐委員長佳青：都還是有效，我們可不可以先了解這一萬多人的具體資料，如果照委員現在所述，可能他現在叫做非法居留的狀態。"],["林委員岱樺：是。"],["徐委員長佳青：可是在97年的專案處理當中，當時已經有兩千五百多人來申請，然後有申請的人高達九成五以上都……"],["林委員岱樺：我現在要的就是，院長，你願不願意啟動評估？我只讓你評估，我沒有叫你一定要承諾本席喔！對於一個人權的國家，我們怎麼可以容許自己認定為臺灣人的一個國人要回歸自己臺灣的祖國，竟然我們還坐視，是不是願意啟動第四次評估呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會請僑委會，甚至國防部，蒐集現在的狀況，也再請問……"],["林委員岱樺：為什麼我說國防部重要？因為如果這個專案開始的話，他必須先取得國防部的國軍後裔證明，這才是第一步，後續才有內政部、僑委會、移民署等等相關單位，如果這個專案不啟動，在國防部他就不可能拿到國軍後裔的證明。"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，事實上，這個國軍後裔證明是第一步，但是……"],["林委員岱樺：院長，您願不願意啟動第四次的專案評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個評估就是我們蒐集資料，跟委員請教你手上的資料，我們來對對看……"],["林委員岱樺：主責哪一個政委，還是秘書長？還是你要讓國防部來做主責，我也沒意見，但絕對不要是僑委會，對不起，我沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：僑委會、國防部跟內政部，我們拿手上的資料，再跟委員請教，把委員的資料提供，我們再來……"],["林委員岱樺：主責單位是誰？我不想聯絡那麼多部會，主責單位是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是移民法，我們請內政部好了。"],["林委員岱樺：內政部移民署做主責？"],["卓院長榮泰：來跟委員蒐集資料，我們來對對看，需要往後走的，我們就繼續看要用怎麼方式來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你還不願意啟動第四次的評估，先蒐集資料嗎？蒐集資料……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個過程啦！"],["林委員岱樺：院長，你既然是國家的行政院長，請你把格局拿高，本人實在很難忍受、本席不能忍受一個人權自由民主的國家還容許有黑戶在臺灣，而且他們從心就是認定我就是臺灣人，我要取得中華民國的國籍。這個是人權民主的價值，所以院長，你願不願意啟動第四次的評估？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們不曉得這一萬多人已經在臺灣居留多久，而且如果他們是在……"],["林委員岱樺：主委，所以要再評估。"],["徐委員長佳青：他們如果是在97年以前就進來的，那表示他們當時……"],["林委員岱樺：所以主委，你要代替院長做這個評估嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，我只是在陳述……"],["林委員岱樺：好，院長，請回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛跟委員報告過了，我們請內政部把所有的資料跟你的……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你不願意做第四次的評估，而是先蒐集資料？"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是一個過程嘛，就是這樣開始。"],["林委員岱樺：對啊，所以要找誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這個資料蒐集起來確實這麼多人在這裡，依照現在的法律……"],["林委員岱樺：好，那什麼時候完成這樣的資料蒐整？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照現在的法律沒有辦法處理的話，我們會進行以下的處理，如果現在是這樣……"],["林委員岱樺：好，兩個月內完成資料的蒐整，我也會把本辦公室相關的……"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員提供。"],["林委員岱樺：OK，兩個月內請內政部來蒐整這樣的資料。以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的列席答詢。現在作以下決定：下次會議進行經濟組之質詢。","現在繼續處理復議案。","本院民進黨黨團針對第2次會議報告事項第三案及第四案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}