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博帝發言原續剛剛張家俊張委員很重要對農民的公糧這個收購我先提醒一個非常重要的原則第一個 面對農民是要照顧的 是要幫忙的不要站在農民的對立面 而且你不要高高在上公糧收購裡面還牽扯到一個很重要的問題這是立法院表決通過的 請你要尊重法治 好不好"},{"start":58.356,"end":79.915,"text":"我再提醒一次不要站在農民的對立面而且不要高高在上而且請你尊重法治你剛剛講的意思好像是只有你一個人對剛剛提了啊這是立法院通過的啊你本來就應該要編啊好不好你再回想一下這個事情我跟你講這幾天還會再協調嘛對不對是 首席院長跟這個"},{"start":82.083,"end":102.862,"text":"行政院跟立法院會協調我希望不要卡在你一個人身上昨天財政部長跟主計長來他們也說尊重農業部的這個決定我希望你好好再想一下農民現在是生計的問題十三年沒有條了你就說啊你找這裡就不夠你要拔光現在是他們溫飽的問題好不好你要去實驗"},{"start":104.495,"end":114.496,"text":"這個絕對不是實驗喔 這個絕對不是實驗你五塊錢加了 美工機五塊錢加了你先去執行看你的理想能不能達得到可是農民很清楚講 你的貢獻我才聽不到啦"},{"start":116.332,"end":116.912,"text":"很簡單的喔很簡單的喔"},{"start":137.469,"end":164.116,"text":"就做阿 並行去做阿好不好 這個事情我講到這邊反正 等著回去解決問題沒有沒有 來 我要問比較重要的事情那個北檢北檢已經約談了去搜索了農業部嘛 對不對中央續產會這個超級不可思議的超思案北檢說不排除要約談陳其中跟林松賢我定你也是被告之一嘛 對不對"},{"start":165.752,"end":180.235,"text":"你被約談了沒有我是看到媒體說我是被告我是看到媒體我沒有接到任何的訊息我也沒有被約談古尼古尼是很多人去安寧申告當然最主要他們認為要找決策者嘛所以最主要控告對象"},{"start":182.111,"end":198.287,"text":"陳其仲、林松賢你也被列在裡面你說到目前為止沒有約談過你嗎?沒有沒有約談那重點就是啊人民要的很簡單嘛就兩個嘛一個真相嘛一個就是責任嘛所以才會有所謂的別簡要找出這個決策者那決策者是誰?"},{"start":198.968,"end":215.089,"text":"我想檢調單位在相關的雞蛋的部分已經在做專案調查而且是我們主動移情檢調單位來調查的那我們也相信檢調單位的公平跟他的司法的一個公平性所以我們也希望檢調能夠盡速的能夠釐清相關的案情"},{"start":216.746,"end":219.429,"text":"我沒有說大家一起做決策我是說當時在雞蛋價格民間的價格國內的價格在迅速攀升的過程中"},{"start":234.912,"end":261.808,"text":"全世界的侵入感發到大爆發的過程中必須要做一些緊急的進口那緊急的進口裡面相關的這些討論大家都有一些討論跟參與那最後的決策你現在講的話到時候北檢約你去你都要再講一次你要很注意好不好我現在提醒的是什麼現在人民不滿了人民要的真相是什麼為什麼是一個50萬資本額的超市那誰做決策讓他承包這麼大的生意啊"},{"start":262.728,"end":285.602,"text":"你不覺得差不可思議嗎?我相信不是你做決策嘛!所以人民才在問啊!北檢才要查啊!這個沒有陳其中、林聰賢誰能夠做這個決策?阿你們在政府機關?你有公文啊?誰做這個覺醒了?誰把這個生意交給了超私?這是什麼?白紙黑字啊!那為什麼合約都沒簽?當地議領理委不是在問嗎?"},{"start":287.239,"end":300.05,"text":"超支誕生的時間是前年的9月這個備委的凱希凱希你們就開始要讓他進蛋了誰敢做這個決策我相信不是你嘛那比你大的是誰所以現在出現說要約談嘛"},{"start":303.058,"end":319.008,"text":"所以檢調單位正在調查所以我想委員是不是可以讓這個議題由檢調單位來查因為相關的委員要資料的時候讓我們的畜牧師就是疲於奔命在整理這些資料那畜牧師有非常多的工作要去做"},{"start":320.196,"end":336.512,"text":"好啦對當然勿妄勿重啦我現在只要提醒你人民就是要真相對不對然後別檢現在趕快約談相關的人現在你自己不要檢進去你所謂的一起沒有包括你現在人民要的是說那麼離譜的狀況是誰做的決策包括錢搬出去啊公文上面不用蓋章嗎"},{"start":338.482,"end":364.367,"text":"這個公文都要調嘛 調公文嘛 約該約的人嘛 這個會有真相的啦好不好 我們看北檢的速度在加快 我們現在只要問監察院也做了糾正案了 北檢開始約談了 農業部也要有一些動作 自己要有一些檢討我們真的糾正案 我們已經有內部的一個檢討的新的作為出來我另外問你一個重要的事情你答應我的事情 六月二月六十八我總質詢的時候"},{"start":367.301,"end":388.781,"text":"左院長跟你對本席做了承諾也是對立法院的承諾那時候五月份的時候你們把以前即將到期的液氮倒出來那時候要倒多少2200多萬顆我在立法院的院會裡面清清楚楚問你跟院長左院長跟你是跟我保證的喔"},{"start":391.192,"end":400.563,"text":"馬上終止對不對後續還有停下來的還有的停下來不要倒彈結果你為什麼你們在議員會做的這個決定你為什麼在8月27號你繼續倒彈勒"},{"start":404.987,"end":427.988,"text":"我想可能委員誤會當時在質詢的時候那時候委員特別提到當時的單價國內的單價已經這麼低了不希望說續產會在國內的單價這麼低的過程中持續的把過去的庫存蛋釋出那我們也同意說在這個階段我們暫停把這些庫存蛋釋出部長我有一段話跟你聽"},{"start":431.505,"end":445.162,"text":"陳部長這樣回答說如果國內的彈供應市場的需求是夠的話我們就不會釋出主委長講得更清楚啊民生為重不要破壞了產需的這個平衡要照顧到我們的彈籠所以他當場"},{"start":446.423,"end":452.747,"text":"一方面你是打臉的周榮泰我跟你講一方面你為什麼要做這個事情那時候產地價的這個美台金是27.5對不對你知道你到這個8月份的時候價格往下掉欸26.5欸"},{"start":470.885,"end":496.772,"text":"你這不是顧一個破壞的產銷這個平衡你是完全不顧彈籠這個生死嗎我想喔 基本上我們這些加工彈的部分會在彈價回升的時候適度的去釋出現在有回升嗎沒有 現在就掉了 問題發生 部長 部長第一個有白紙黑字 第二個清清楚楚現在還是在掉的這個狀況之下你倒彈已經不對了 好 這是一個問題"},{"start":498.612,"end":506.148,"text":"你不只打你的行政院長我跟你講這個事情你要給我一個清楚講甚至已經藐視國會了你答應的事情為什麼沒有這樣做第二個在牽扯到食安的問題"},{"start":507.708,"end":531.704,"text":"你說不能,為什麼我要講第三點?我說要你回去清查一下你的蛋有沒有過期,對不對?你清查了嗎?清啊清查了?清啊那現在有多少蛋是過期的?現在庫存裡面總共有1148萬顆裡面還有1140多萬顆?對,然後其中齁,就是最慢的蛋粉,因為我上次也說了加工蛋有不同的蛋粉的話可以到那個2025年的9月14才到期"},{"start":535.35,"end":535.49,"text":"報告委員：張啓楷"},{"start":552.541,"end":552.982,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":568.291,"end":591.625,"text":"你認為他沒有問題嗎?對不對?我想我們不必要用這樣的方式去贊成明確心安我想整個雞蛋變成加工蛋的時候有一定的規範這個規範就是食藥署都跟你講就是一年阿你要推翻食藥署的講法要推翻你之前中央市長會講法你怎麼要贊成明確心安?你要怎麼除了這個方法你有什麼方法?部長你怎麼贊成明確心安?"},{"start":592.245,"end":596.553,"text":"發言委員發言時間到稍後兩分鐘了我們可以請10號組來決定好 謝謝 發言時間到那你要怎麼解決 部長不要搞怪 不要搞怪這個問題 什麼讓人民可以心安"},{"start":606.525,"end":634.47,"text":"發言時間已經到了已經超過三分鐘了已經超過三分鐘了我們在監督政府而且牽扯到人民的食安為什麼如果你每次都會沒有馬上好那個主席就是一個答案嘛我說四次會一個禮拜內辦那你不辦你的方法是什麼嘛你的方法是什麼我們可以把我們現在庫存的這些標示跟他的貴格品由食藥組來確認是不是符合他的規範那你公佈給大家看好不好一個禮拜內公佈可以嗎部長"},{"start":636.328,"end":644.064,"text":"我們要聯絡食藥署來確認嘛現在台北市都在查了嘛你們盡快公布一個禮拜內公布"},{"start":648.117,"end":651.079,"text":"我做主席要維持會議的公平性跟會議能夠順利進行"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:07:43 - 10:18:50","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時7分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先延續剛剛張嘉郡委員提到很重要的對農民公糧收購的問題，我先提醒你一個非常重要的原則，第一個，面對農民是要照顧的，是要幫忙的，不要站在農民的對立面，而且你不要高高在上，公糧收購還牽扯到一個很重要的問題，這是立法院表決通過的，請你要尊重法制，好不好？我再提醒一次，不要站在農民的對立面，而且不要高高在上，而且請你尊重法制。你剛剛講的意思好像是只有你一個人對，剛剛提了，這是立法院通過的，你本來就應該要編。你再回想一下，這個事情這幾天還會再協調，行政院跟立法院會協調，我希望不要卡在你一個人身上，昨天財政部長跟主計長來，他們也說尊重農業部的決定，我希望你好好再想一下，農民現在是生計的問題，13年沒有調了，他們就說了，生吃都不夠了，要怎麼曬乾？現在是他們溫飽的問題，好不好？你要去實驗，你做你的1集、2轉、3加3沒有關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這個絕對不是實驗。"],["張委員啓楷：你並行，每公斤5塊錢加了，你再去執行，看你的理想能不能達得到，可是農民很清楚講，你說這些我們聽不懂啦！我都已經餓成這樣子，13年沒調了，物價漲那麼多，你為什麼不幫農民多想一想呢？你要實驗，你做你的嘛！你就雙軌做，你先調高5塊錢，就像嘉郡講的，你那麼有理想，每公斤5塊錢調了，你的1集、2轉、3加3，農民願意接受的就做，並行去做，好不好？這個事情我講到這邊，反正等著回去解決問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以再回答一下？"],["張委員啓楷：不，我要問比較重要的事情。北檢已經去搜索農業部、中央畜產會，對不對？這個超級不可思議的超思案，北檢說不排除要約談陳吉仲跟林聰賢，部長也是被告之一，對不對？你被約談了沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我是看到媒體說我是被告。我是看到媒體，我沒有接到任何的訊息，也沒有被約談。"],["張委員啓楷：去年很多人去按鈴申告，最主要是他們認為要找決策者，所以最主要的控告對象是陳吉仲跟林聰賢，你也被列在裡面，但你說到目前為止沒有約談過你，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：重點是人民要的很簡單，就兩個，一個真相，一個就是責任，所以才會有所謂的北檢要找出這個決策者，決策者是誰？"],["陳部長駿季：檢調單位在雞蛋相關的部分已經在做專案調查，而且是我們主動移請檢調單位來調查的。我們相信檢調單位的公平跟司法的公平性，所以我們也希望檢調能夠儘速釐清相關的案情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，現在最重要的是決策，你早上說是大家一起決策？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！"],["張委員啓楷：你有跟著一起決策嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有說大家一起決策，我是說當時雞蛋價格在國內民間迅速攀升的過程中，以及全世界禽流感大爆發的過程中，必須要緊急進口，而緊急進口相關的這些討論，大家都有一些參與。最後的決策是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長現在講的話，到時候北檢約你去，都要再講一次，你要很注意，好不好？我現在提醒的是什麼？現在人民不滿，人民要的真相是什麼？為什麼是一個五十萬資本額的超思？誰決策讓他承包這麼大的生意？你不覺得超不可思議嗎？我相信不是你決策的，所以人民才會問，北檢才要查，沒有陳吉仲、林聰賢，誰能夠做這個決策？政府機關有公文，是誰決行的？誰把這個生意交給了超思？是不是有白紙黑字？為什麼合約都沒簽？剛剛呂玉玲委員不是在問嗎？超思誕生的時間是前年9月，結果8月你們就開始要讓他進蛋了，誰敢做這個決策？我相信不是你，比你大的是誰？所以現在要約談，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：檢調單位正在調查，是不是可以讓這個議題由檢調單位來查？因為委員要資料，讓畜牧司疲於奔命在整理這些資料，但畜牧司有非常多的工作要去做。"],["張委員啓楷：好，當然勿枉勿縱。我只是在提醒你，人民就是要真相，北檢現在趕快約談相關的人，像你自己不要捲進去，你所謂的一起，應該沒有包括你。現在人民要知道的是，那麼離譜的狀況是誰做的決策？包括把錢搬出去，公文上面不用蓋章嗎？這個公文都要調，調公文、約該約的人，這個會有真相的，好不好？我們看北檢的速度在加快，我現在只是在問。監察院也做了糾正案，北檢開始約談了，農業部也要有一些動作，自己要去檢討。接下來我問你……"],["陳部長駿季：針對糾正案，我們內部已經有檢討新的作為出來。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。我另外問你一件重要的事情，是你答應我的事情，6月28號我總質詢的時候，卓院長跟你對本席承諾，也是對立法院承諾，5月份你們把即將到期的液蛋倒出來，那時候倒多少？兩千兩百多萬顆！我在立法院院會裡面清清楚楚問你跟院長，卓院長跟你向我保證，第一個，馬上終止，後續還有的停下來、不要倒蛋。結果你們在院會做這個決定，為什麼在8月27號還繼續倒蛋呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想可能是委員誤會，那時候質詢委員特別提到，當時國內的蛋價已經這麼低了，不希望畜產會在國內蛋價這麼低的過程中，持續把過去的庫存蛋釋出，我們也同意在這個階段，暫停把這些庫存蛋釋出。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我唸一段話給你聽，陳部長回答：如果國內蛋的需求市場供應夠的話，我們就不會釋出。卓院長講得更清楚：民生為重，不要破壞了產需的平衡，要照顧到蛋農。所以不只是兩千兩百多萬顆停下來，他當場說後續還有的，全部不能賣。"],["陳部長駿季：他沒這樣講吧？"],["張委員啓楷：我調公報給你看，公報都是白紙黑字。現在一方面，你是打臉了卓榮泰。另一方面，你為什麼要做這個事情？當初我問產地價每臺斤是27.5，你知道到8月份價格往下掉，變26.5耶！這不是破壞了產銷的平衡，你是完全不顧蛋農生死嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，這些加工蛋會在蛋價回升的時候適度釋出。"],["張委員啓楷：現在有回升嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們之前……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，第一個，有白紙黑字，第二個，清清楚楚，現在還是在掉價的狀況之下，你去倒蛋就已經不對了。好，這是一個問題。你不只打臉了行政院長，這個事情你要給我一個清楚的交代，這甚至已經是藐視國會了！你答應的事情為什麼沒有這樣做？第二個、這還牽扯到食安的問題，你說為什麼要講第三點？我說要你回去清查一下蛋有沒有過期，你清查了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：清了。"],["張委員啓楷：清查了，那現在有多少蛋是過期的？"],["陳部長駿季：現在庫存裡面總共有1,148萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：還有一千一百四十多萬顆？"],["陳部長駿季：對，其中最慢的蛋粉……因為我上次也說了，加工蛋有不同的期限，蛋粉2025年9月14日才到期。"],["張委員啓楷：有蛋粉、有滷蛋、茶葉蛋……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！我做個總結。"],["主席：發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我上次就給你看過了……"],["主席：張委員，鄭委員在後面等……"],["張委員啓楷：包括中央畜產會的產品，你們的有效期限是一年，連衛福部食藥署都講最多是一年。"],["主席：謝謝，發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在硬要把它拗成是兩年或者一年半，你對社會要公平。"],["主席：張委員，鄭委員在這邊等……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們做兩件事情，一週內你辦一個試吃會，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你率領所有的首長，包括中央畜產會，當場吃給大家看。"],["主席：好，謝謝。質詢時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你可以這樣保證嗎？部長，你認為它沒有問題，對不對？"],["主席：張委員，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們不必要用這樣的方式去證明它的食品安全。"],["張委員啓楷：那你要用什麼方式讓人民可以心安？"],["主席：鄭正鈐委員……"],["陳部長駿季：雞蛋變成加工蛋有一定的規範。"],["主席：好，謝謝，發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：這個規範食藥署都跟你講就是一年。"],["主席：張委員發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你要推翻食藥署的講法，要推翻之前中央畜產會的講法，怎麼樣讓人民可以心安？"],["主席：好，謝謝張委員。"],["陳部長駿季：它是根據不同的製程。"],["張委員啓楷：除了這個方法，你有什麼方法？部長，你怎麼讓人民心安？"],["主席：張委員，發言時間到。你超過兩分鐘了！"],["張委員啓楷：辦一個試吃會保證，一個禮拜內辦，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以請食藥署來確認。"],["張委員啓楷：你率所有的首長，包括中央畜產會的官員來吃。"],["主席：好，謝謝。發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你要怎麼解決？部長要怎麼解決這個問題？怎麼讓人民可以心安？"],["主席：發言時間已經到了，你超過3分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：給一個答案就好。"],["主席：已經超過3分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！我在監督政府，而且牽扯到人民的食安，為什麼……"],["主席：如果你每次都……每一個人都沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，馬上好。就是一個答案，我說試吃會一個禮拜內辦，但你不辦，你的方法是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以把我們現在庫存的這些標示跟它的規格品，由食藥署來確認是不是符合規範。"],["主席：張委員，你發言時間超過4分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那你公布給大家看，好不好？一個禮拜內公布，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們要聯絡食藥署來確認。"],["張委員啓楷：現在臺北市衛生局都在查了，你們儘快公布，好不好？"],["主席：請回座。"],["張委員啓楷：儘快公布，一個禮拜內公布。"],["主席：張委員，大家都在等，我做主席要維持會議的公平性，讓會議能夠順利進行，大家都這樣，就講不完了。"],["張委員啓楷：以前的主席都有給更多時間。"],["主席：不是，我說6+2就6+2，一視同仁。"],["張委員啓楷：就是要個答案……"],["主席：不然下次你來當主席。"],["張委員啓楷：好，有機會我來當，謝謝。"],["主席：我看是沒機會。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","王育敏","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","徐富癸","麥玉珍","張雅琳","羅智強","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","劉建國"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}