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︎"},{"start":282.981,"end":305.383,"text":"然後我們只要數字達標的就好。單位護理長就拿這個單位的護理長來講,他沒有實際照顧這個病患,可是他也可能被拉進來當分母。對吧?我們只算第一線的。只算第一線,所以護理長都沒有了?"},{"start":306.184,"end":324.102,"text":"好那但是你如果用平均的因為每個醫院的狀況不一樣每個病房的狀況是不一樣的是對不對所以如果你用平均的來講那對某些人不是來說他的他的壓力就增加增增大他的壓力就增大那我們當然講的就是說我們我們現在講說有有達標我們就領獎金對不對"},{"start":328.126,"end":336.958,"text":"那這個政策對護理人員來講就是說這好像包著這個糖果的毒藥對不對他們是用肝去換的"},{"start":338.744,"end":366.111,"text":"我們的立場非常清楚只要我們一直在跟護理界溝通看看護理界覺得怎麼樣做才能真正他們所需要我希望我們衛福部不要跟他們處在平行時空還是要能夠交會才能知道他們想什麼不要說我們在用這個數據來欺騙大家然後沒看到就算了"},{"start":366.311,"end":368.312,"text":"因為我們真的很多民眾都是在急診室排隊的都沒有病房"},{"start":393.88,"end":412.692,"text":"這是我看到我最擔心的事情好不好是那另外我想這個少子女化已經成為這個國安的問題目前教育體系勞動能力經濟及國防安全都受到嚴重的衝擊我國少子化的預算從108年的193億元到去年1088億元成長了5.6倍"},{"start":420,"end":443.75,"text":"那同期間新生兒人數卻持續地下降減少到25%減少了25%那去年只剩下13萬多人出生率只剩下1.09那我當然知道政府在做做這件事情我想我們我國少子化對策計畫裡面你覺不覺得這個有需要來檢討"},{"start":446.138,"end":446.859,"text":"現在是第二期"},{"start":460.984,"end":473.126,"text":"現在行政院已經是在開始請國科會先做一些研究,然後研究分析大概是到今年年底。所以主責機關是國科會?是行政院。那撥下來到時候以後是誰在負責?"},{"start":491.591,"end":496.016,"text":"我們衛福部會...我們衛福部會全力來...主責機關是誰?"},{"start":498.632,"end":528.227,"text":"那個已經到...是在行...當時齁...170...106年的時候其實是行政...行政委齁...集合各個部位來成一個少子女化...所以是行政院層級就對了?對那我們衛福部一定全力來...來做任何的幫忙可以...那您覺得我們有沒有需要制定這個專法?就是少子女...呃...少子女化對策專法"},{"start":530.488,"end":541.332,"text":"有沒有辦法?有沒有需要?如果任何的一個制度能夠改善,我相信少子化是我們國家重要的問題。我在這邊建議啦。任何的方法我們都可以來。我們建議啦。"},{"start":545.213,"end":545.393,"text":"好,是。"},{"start":573.044,"end":594.431,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是說我們根據檢測報告今年第一劑大醫院加護病房中超級細菌對抗生素的抗藥性已經超過7成那金黃色葡萄球菌抗藥性也都超過6成如果持續失控WHO推估我們2025年可能會造成我國3000億"},{"start":596.681,"end":598.021,"text":"我看到環境部公布最近3年追蹤的意願"},{"start":623.106,"end":651.874,"text":"有放流水檢驗的結果大概有8家醫院抗生素超標那部長你說這個不是醫療廢棄物產生的嘛對不對你講過嘛對不對因為醫療廢棄物據我的過去的經驗是那你覺得它是從哪一個環節那現在大家認為的是排泄物的問題因為你在醫院的人會被人但是據我了解就拿大台北地區來講各大醫院已經全面接了這個地下污水管線了嘛"},{"start":653.646,"end":676.787,"text":"那這個所以我認為這未必是排泄物啊沒關係我們可以來做整體的來了解只是說當時問到說是不是醫療廢棄物那我們醫療廢棄物的處置從我過去我在當立法的時候就專門在幫忙各醫療院所在處理這個部分我覺得那個應該是算蠻嚴格的啦我看到機關署多的預算一年大概只有兩億喔"},{"start":678.589,"end":704.922,"text":"2億而且沒有納入醫療機構放流水管理像這部分我希望能夠把它把這個計畫納入好不好好我想因為行政委員已經核定這個計畫了我也希望各位委員還有各界能夠多多指導因為我們看到現在我們看到我們的做法只有只有藥品的管理那缺乏環境的管理這部分我請部長多多用心好不好一定一定好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝召委"},{"start":707.468,"end":707.489,"text":"謝謝這位"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:43:28 - 10:55:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":466,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時43分）好，謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我們民眾的生老病死在醫院的手裡，我現在看到醫院的生死在衛福部的手上。上個會期你在這邊承諾健保點值要到0.95，本來是可以慢慢接近我們賴總統的競選支票，但我看這一次我們的預算沒編滿，肯定會跳票，部長，你怎麼看？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，現在是這樣，兩個部分，一個是成長率的問題，成長率才是醫界真正拿到手上的，113年是有史以來健保總額成長率最高的，5.5%，過去都大概是百分之四點多，所以在這部分就增加了大概531億注入健保；另外行政院也挹注了336億的健保協助方案，這其中……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這些錢是用在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：這些錢都是可以讓那個，其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我只問健保點值會到0.95嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為健保點值牽涉到管理……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要玩那個數字遊戲，人家聽不懂，不要講那麼複雜啦。"],["邱部長泰源：健保點值是各區，我舉個例子，臺北區臺大、榮總幾個醫院坐下來談，說我們今年的點值就定在0.93好了……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是你們的預算就沒有編滿啊！你要教其他醫院怎麼去做這些事情呢？對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們的高推估已經增加了五百多億，這個部分對於點值會有很大的幫助。"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題是你沒有編滿，你要教醫院怎麼去做？你要怎麼樣讓它去跟醫護人員來定這個標準呢？"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們要增加點值最重要的一個目的就是希望改善工作環境，讓醫院能夠專業經營。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道啦，你們很聰明，很會玩這個數字遊戲，但經營醫院的人也不會笨啦，所以我想說大家不要再玩這個遊戲，否則最後倒楣的就是我們的民眾嘛，對不對？你知道現在我們的護病比是多少嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們當時在講的時候是說大概要700億，那以現在來講，大概在健保總額方面就成長了530億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我那天就問院長，院長也沒有承諾，你講有，院長說沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣子啦，因為院長他很用力，說實在的有史以來，我覺得他給健保這個部分最大的幫忙，醫療體系其實也告訴我說，他們也感受到行政院的誠意，所以他們也會再有效的管理，只要有效的管理……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，現在講現況就好，你講那個講太多了。現在醫學中心的大夜班護病比是67.8，沒達標，區域醫院是51.22，大小夜班都沒有達標，這樣看起來是不是護理人員不夠？"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們訓練出來的護理人員是夠啦，怎麼樣讓他留任，提供好的工作條件……"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是福利不好，錢不夠，所以大家做不住。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們有12個策略，從人才的培育、從工作的環境、從工作的待遇，我們一直在努力，請給我們一點時間，我們一定會改善。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到我們的作法，就是三班護病的政策是用整間醫院所有的病房下去平均，再用整個月去平均，我舉個例子，區域醫院的小夜班假設護理師昨天是一比七，今天是一比十五，那平均後就是一比十一，就是這個概念，對不對？然後只要數字達標了就好，就拿這個單位的護理長來講，他沒有實際照顧病患，可是他也可能被拉進來當分母，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我們只算第一線的啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：只算第一線，所以護理長就沒有了？但是你如果用平均的，因為每個醫院的狀況不一樣，每個病房的狀況也不一樣。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你如果用平均的來講，對某些人來說，他的壓力不是就增大了？我們現在講有達標就領獎金，對不對？這個政策對護理人員來講就好像包著糖衣的毒藥，對不對？他們是用肝去換啦。"],["邱部長泰源：我們的立場非常清楚啦，我們一直在跟護理界溝通，看看護理界覺得怎麼樣做才能真正符合他們所需要的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講啦，我不希望衛福部……"],["邱部長泰源：我們全力往這方面來努力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望衛福部不要跟他們處在平行時空啦，還是要能夠交會，才能知道他們想什麼，不要說我們用數據來欺騙大家，然後沒看到就算了。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，護理人員是我們醫療團隊最核心、最靈魂的人物，沒有他們醫療團隊都沒有辦法運作，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望部長，這個部分……"],["邱部長泰源：醫院跟醫師全部了解必須要好好留住護理人員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你一定要用心，儘快的來協助他們，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定想盡辦法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：多照顧我們……"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你照顧護理人員，就是照顧我們民眾，因為真的很多民眾都在急診室排隊，都沒有病房啦，這是我看到我最擔心的事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我想少子女化已經成為國安的問題，目前教育體系、勞動人力、經濟及國防安全都受到嚴重的衝擊，我國少子化的預算從108年的193億元到去年的1,088億元，成長了5.6倍，同期間新生兒人數卻持續的下降，減少了25%，去年只剩下13萬多人，出生率只剩下1.09%，我當然知道政府在做這件事情，我國少子化對策計畫你覺不覺得有需要來檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：我想只要成效沒有達到理想，一定都要檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，今年第二期什麼時候開始？那個計畫到今年就結束了嘛，第二期計畫什麼時候開始，什麼時候會提出來？"],["邱部長泰源：請署長講一下。"],["張代理署長美美：目前第二期的計畫是到114年，現在行政院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那下一期呢？"],["張代理署長美美：下一期，因為現在行政院已經開始請國科會先做一些研究，研究分析大概是到今年年底，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以主責機關是國科會？"],["張代理署長美美：是行政院。"],["邱委員鎮軍：撥下來之後，以後是誰在負責？"],["邱部長泰源：我們衛福部會全力來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：主責機關是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：106年的時候其實是行政院政委集合各個部會來成立一個少子女化……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是行政院層級就對了？"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們衛福部一定全力來幫忙，以達到目標。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您覺得我們有沒有需要制定這個專法？就是少子女化對策專法。"],["邱部長泰源：我相信少子化是我們國家重要的問題，如果有任何制度能夠改善，任何方法我們都可以來研議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們建議成立行政院層級的主責機關，然後做好跨部會的協調，因為這個牽扯的不單單只是一個單位的事情，當然少子化的原因有很多，我們也希望政府能夠把錢花在刀口上，不要去做一些浪費資源、多做的事情，希望我們做的事情都能夠有效果，我希望大家一起來努力，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問一個問題，根據檢測報告，今年第一季大醫院的加護病房中，超級細菌對抗生素的抗藥性已經超過七成，金黃色葡萄球菌抗藥性也都超過六成，如果持續失控，WHO推估2025年可能會造成我國3,000億元以上的經濟損失，請問衛福部如何改善這個抗藥性的問題？"],["邱部長泰源：行政院才在兩個禮拜前核定一個國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫，這個當然就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到環境部公布最近三年追蹤的醫院有放流水檢驗的結果，大概有8家醫院抗生素超標，部長，你說過這不是醫療廢棄物產生的嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：因為醫療廢棄物的部分，據我過去的經驗，是管制得非常嚴格。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你覺得它是哪一個環節出問題？"],["邱部長泰源：現在大家認為是排泄物的問題，因為在醫院的病人都有在吃抗生素。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是據我了解，就拿大臺北地區來講，各大醫院已經全面接地下污水管線了，所以我認為這未必是排泄物的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，我們可以來做整體的了解，只是當時問到是不是醫療廢棄物，有關醫療廢棄物的處置，我過去在當立委的時候，就專門在幫忙各醫療院所處理這個部分，我覺得那個應該算是蠻嚴格的，倒不至於流到水裡面去。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到疾管署編的預算一年大概只有2億，而且沒有納入醫療機構放流水管理，這部分我希望能夠把這個計畫納入，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想因為行政院已經核定這個計畫了，我也希望各位委員還有各界能夠多多指導，把健康一體還有環境……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們看到現在的作法只有藥品的管理，缺乏環境的管理，這部分我請部長多多用心，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：一定、一定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接下來我們請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}