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把經濟部加下去98.039所以如果我們只有36頁然後呢預算書裡面每一個名字都不一樣就會有這個問題"},{"start":378.897,"end":398.582,"text":"預算書應該是正確的啦 國科會98億 經濟部其實有73.3億 速發部7.7億 教育部2.5億 國發會 農業部 衛福部都有 比較少所以183不會再變喔 不會啦 183是啦 那如果多了如果少了勒 你確定喔"},{"start":400.26,"end":427.786,"text":"要去喔!我們都有錄影紀錄喔!回去算一下很可能會變喔!因為你們在預算書我真的拜託主委還有各位官員回去看一下你們在預算書裡面的每一個計畫都不叫做晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案為什麼每一個名字都不一樣?你們是想加多的時候就加多想變少的時候就變少嗎?我在這裡跟主委交流一下預算法第39條"},{"start":431.039,"end":449.353,"text":"繼續經費預算之編制因列明全部計劃之內容經費總額執行期間以及注意喔各年度之分配額依各年度之分配額編列該年度的預算我們連明年的預算數字都會變了後年呢大後年呢"},{"start":451.295,"end":466.34,"text":"各位,金創方案是一個方案。真正行政編預算是要有計劃的。那個計劃如果是多年期,一定多年期那個計劃都會有。什麼叫做只是一個方案?這是一個已經核定的?"},{"start":467.116,"end":468.136,"text":"我認為大家都很認真在做事"},{"start":494.921,"end":513.819,"text":"我們在預算書裡真的沒有看到這個名字的計畫每一個名字都不一樣金創方案不是計畫金創方案不是計畫但是在金創方案裡面可能會有一些計畫他沒有把金創方案寫出來那每一個名字都不一樣啊都是跟晶片有關的好沒關係我相信你們有一個PDF檔是有列出來的"},{"start":516.141,"end":540.665,"text":"本席在此希望要求國科會的主計單位依據預算法第39條今天下班前找到這個檔案PDF也好 Excel也好把應該列明的資訊分年的計劃各年度的分配而以書面方式符合39條的內容書面方式送到本席的辦公室否則我覺得這樣我們怎麼這是不是規避預算審核啊"},{"start":544.822,"end":552.477,"text":"這根本就是一個1330億的大黑箱甚至是一個10年3000億的大黑箱啊那你跟我講四個字指示方案"},{"start":553.906,"end":574.572,"text":"金創台灣那是一個方案那是行政院的方案但是我們計畫說計畫一定都會按照預算法編列一定都會的所以對不起我覺得我今天比較激動因為我是真的很希望搞清楚在座有很多都是我的老師所有人都非常在意AI的發展但是我們現在沒有人搞得清楚我們3年後可以花多少錢4年後可以花多少錢"},{"start":576.773,"end":589.438,"text":"我們台德做了這麼努力可能就1億多夠嗎我們的算力現在50幾全球排名第17夠嗎然後我們問來問去每次算力的數字都不一樣你在內容報告書裡寫100PF然後呢現在變成116"},{"start":594.94,"end":616.612,"text":"剛剛呢我們又知道說五年內算力要變成280加上大南方又變成480 480我們好不容易可以排到亞洲第二名 對不對我們想要排亞洲第三 前三嘛 對不對我告訴主委亞洲第二名是2024年的第二名啦你480加上去 我們還有產業投入還沒有算欸"},{"start":617.622,"end":621.543,"text":"所以我們想知道您是怎麼算的南韓的數字2028是多少您2028要花多少錢什麼樣的計畫執行的方案我們沒有看到所以我們希望可以看到跟大家一起努力好不好這個主委可以幫忙嗎請主計單位把預算的細節交付到本委員辦公室"},{"start":644.77,"end":670.564,"text":"否則啦我認為這樣子的一個做法我就給您八個字希望科學計算我們到底什麼樣的目標用科學的方法去計算不要用喊的合理的預算科學計算合理預算讓我們台灣真的成為AI影響力的中心我會請委員兩位老師一定會把它弄好謝謝單位主計單位好不好主計單位"},{"start":672.045,"end":672.526,"text":"謝謝葛如鈞委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:22.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:22.534000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:22.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:22.894000+08:00","text":"有請國科會吳主委。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:22.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:23.035000+08:00","text":"有請吳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:23.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:23.495000+08:00","text":"葛委員好！你好！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:23.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:25.856000+08:00","text":"主委，本席手上有一張空白支票，如果你撿到一張空白支票，你會隨便填一個數字就拿到銀行去兌換嗎？不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:25.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:25.876000+08:00","text":"不會嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:25.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:26.056000+08:00","text":"我會送到警察局。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:26.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:26.436000+08:00","text":"當然嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:45.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:02:52.165000+08:00","text":"我是沒有想要講太多，但是確實，有人亂填就應該要送到警察局。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:02:53.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:07.010000+08:00","text":"主委，既然你知道空白支票不要自己隨便亂填金額去兌現，正常人都不應該這樣做，那為什麼國科會在空白支票上寫得不清不楚，自己就填上3,000億元，要求全臺灣的人民必須要兌現買單，要求我們就應該要通過預算呢？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:07.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:38+08:00","text":"好，我們來看一下，112年11月行政院通過晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案，規劃113年到122年10年3,000億元，我手上就是這個計畫書的核定本，實行期間113年到117年，一共5年，在這5年當中，政府到底要做哪些事情？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:39.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:41.921000+08:00","text":"主委知道這本核定本、報告書有幾頁嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:43.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:47.943000+08:00","text":"我直接告訴你，36頁，36頁裡面的預算有多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:47.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:50.205000+08:00","text":"主委知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:50.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:51.066000+08:00","text":"這一題應該可以回答吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:52.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:55.770000+08:00","text":"這5年要花多少錢在晶創計畫？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:55.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:56.951000+08:00","text":"其實我們的預算是逐年編列。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:57.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:03:57.652000+08:00","text":"你知不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:03:58.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:03.777000+08:00","text":"不知道，我告訴你，你說逐年編列，好，這一份呢！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:04.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:13.719000+08:00","text":"這裡面我們看到的是1,330億元，等於這樣一頁、我們幫你算過了，一頁36億元、再一頁又36億元。","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:13.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:14.719000+08:00","text":"未來是預估，立法院也是逐年審嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:13.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:14.999000+08:00","text":"我先講，為什麼我今天帶這麼多本上來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:14.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:27.291000+08:00","text":"我們沒有看到第三年要花多少錢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:27.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:29.193000+08:00","text":"第四年要花多少錢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:29.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:30.835000+08:00","text":"第五年要花多少錢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:30.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:32.296000+08:00","text":"第六年要花多少錢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:32.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:49.738000+08:00","text":"我們都沒有看到，預算法裡面寫得很清楚，分年計畫當你在續年的時候，就是要講清楚每一年到底要花多少錢；如果講了之後有修正，還可以再來修，但是我們現在看到的內容其實非常的不完整。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:04:50.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:04:56.669000+08:00","text":"我先確認一下，我剛不小心就撕掉了72億元，我們先看一下，這本核定本主委有沒有好好看過？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:00.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:06.639000+08:00","text":"我們通常最注意的還是明年的預算，因為它是比較真實的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:06.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:09.581000+08:00","text":"2024年到2028年，這裡面有沒有明年？有嘛！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:10.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:16.006000+08:00","text":"明年在這裡面至少就有一百多億元。183億元。","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:16.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:17.867000+08:00","text":"好，你現在講183億元，我待會跟你交流一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:17.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:19.028000+08:00","text":"這裡面你沒有看過沒有關係，我直接告訴你，第1頁到第16頁是講國際和臺灣的現況跟困境，第17頁開始到第31頁是談我們的願景，但是沒有KPI、OKR和人力資源的配比，到底我們要怎麼完成？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊執行秘書佳玲","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:19.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:19.188000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那個是方案……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:40.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:43.791000+08:00","text":"老師稍微等我一下，待會我會分享一下內容。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:44.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:55.856000+08:00","text":"我想先問，我們從2月開始就不斷的要晶創計畫的內容、規劃和執行的作法，但是到現在我們都還是只有得到這一本。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:05:56.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:05:58.497000+08:00","text":"老師您可以回答，其他的計畫、內容在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊執行秘書佳玲","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:01.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:06:07.078000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那個是方案，所以它本來就沒有細部的KPI，我們每一年的計畫都在審。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"楊執行秘書佳玲","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:08.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:06:23.249000+08:00","text":"114年的晶創計畫現在是183億元，並不是上面寫的一年300億元，所以我們是詳細的審核，那是整個方案的推動是這個樣子。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"楊執行秘書佳玲","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:24.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:06:29.033000+08:00","text":"委員，你看過很多的審查計畫你應該知道，其實整個方案的意義是這個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:29.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:06:30.314000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝老師！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:30.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:06:37.343000+08:00","text":"老師在AI、還有半導體真的做了很多事，以前我們在臺大共事也很愉快，您也指導很多，但是我要先講，目前我們真的認為晶創計畫的預算還有很多細劃的討論空間，如果我們沒有辦法一一的列出來，就會發生這個做到一半發現有問題，那個到底是不是屬於晶創計畫？","quality":0.518},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:37.343000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:06:45.234000+08:00","text":"老實說，如果你們拿晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案去預算書裡蒐尋，那是完全找不到的，每一個專案的名稱都變得不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:06:45.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:29.364000+08:00","text":"我們來講剛剛老師講到這個、主委也提到的這個183億元，我們來看一下，我們的預算，你在媒體上喊200億元，然後你在國科會業務報告的第4頁提到183億元，結果昨天國科會提供給我們的資料，我說晶創計畫明年加起來到底是多少億元？","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:29.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:31.426000+08:00","text":"加起來是90億元。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:31.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:36.351000+08:00","text":"然後我們還把經濟部的加進去98億元，還有什麼呢？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:37.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:45.957000+08:00","text":"我們再去看了裡面，我想請主委說明一下，晶創臺灣114年度的預算到底是200億元？183億元？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:45.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:46.197000+08:00","text":"還是98億元？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:46.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:46.797000+08:00","text":"我們現在是183億元。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:46.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:47.818000+08:00","text":"現在是，那之前是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:47.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:48.118000+08:00","text":"未來是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:49.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:50.419000+08:00","text":"行政院的預算書就是這樣，國科會就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:51.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:07:51.060000+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:07:51.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:15.999000+08:00","text":"你們的預算書我唸一下，114年度國科會執行之晶創計畫，含他部會主題計畫，加起來是90億390萬元，如果只有國科會是90億490萬元，把經濟部加進去後是98億390萬元，如果我們只有36頁，然後預算書裡面每一個名字都不一樣，就會有這個問題。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:28.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:41.700000+08:00","text":"預算書應該是正確的，國科會98億元、經濟部73億3,000萬元、數發部7億7,000萬元、教育部2億5,000萬元，國發會、農業部和衛福部也都有，只是金額比較少。","quality":0.691},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:42.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:43.881000+08:00","text":"所以183億元不會再變了？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:44.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:44.721000+08:00","text":"不會啦！183億元。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:46.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:47.382000+08:00","text":"如果多了或少了呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:48.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:48.402000+08:00","text":"你確定哦？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:48.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:51.040000+08:00","text":"要確定哦！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:51.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:52.381000+08:00","text":"我們都有錄影記錄哦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:52.381000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:53.861000+08:00","text":"如果立法院要給我多一點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:53.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:08:55.341000+08:00","text":"回去算一下，金額很可能會變哦！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:08:57.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:00.822000+08:00","text":"我真的要拜託主委和各位官員，請回去看一下。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:00.822000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:01.822000+08:00","text":"好，我們再詳細……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:01.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:10.864000+08:00","text":"你們在預算書裡面的每一個計畫都不叫做「晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案」，為什麼每一個名字都不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:10.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:14.545000+08:00","text":"你們想加多時就加多，想變少時就變少嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:14.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:33.448000+08:00","text":"我在這裡跟主委交流一下，預算法第三十九條：「繼續經費預算之編製，應列明全部計畫之內容、經費總額、執行期間及各年度之分配額，依各年度之分配額，編列各該年度預算」。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:33.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:35.170000+08:00","text":"是，葛委員，那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:35.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:38.372000+08:00","text":"我們連明年的預算數字都會變了，後年呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:38.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:39.333000+08:00","text":"大後年呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:42.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:52.679000+08:00","text":"葛委員，晶創方案是一個方案，行政院要編列真正的預算時是要有計畫的，那個計畫如果是多年期，那個計畫都會有，所以我們在晶創方案……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:52.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:54.239000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做「只是一個方案」？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:54.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:55.239000+08:00","text":"這是一個已經核定的方案，10年3,000億元，核定本已經出來，5年1,330億元，什麼叫「只是一個方案」？","quality":0.257},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:55.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:56.239000+08:00","text":"那是行政院核定，不是立法院核定，但是我們報立法院的一定是計畫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:56.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:57.239000+08:00","text":"那我們要怎麼監督？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:57.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:58.239000+08:00","text":"你們的計畫不清楚我們要怎麼監督？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:58.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:09:59.239000+08:00","text":"預算法第三十九條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:59.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:10:00.239000+08:00","text":"我們的計畫都清楚，現在只是哪些計畫要納在晶創方案裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:10:00.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:10:01.239000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:09:57.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:10:30.126000+08:00","text":"我認為，大家都很認真的在做事，我們在預算書裡真的沒有看到這個名字的計畫，每一個名字都不一樣。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:10:32.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:10:38.594000+08:00","text":"晶創方案不是計畫，但是在晶創方案裡面可能會有一些計畫，它沒有把晶創方案寫出來。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:10:38.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:10:39.655000+08:00","text":"那每一個名字都不一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:10:40.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:10:40.936000+08:00","text":"都是跟晶片有關的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:10:40.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:10.625000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我相信你們有一個PDF檔是有列出來的，本席在此希望、要求國科會的主計單位依據預算法第三十九條，請在今天下班前找到這個檔案，PDF也好、Excel也好，把應該列名的資訊、分年的計畫、各年度的分配額，以符合預算法第三十九的內容，用書面的方式送到本席的辦公室，否則我覺得這是不是規避預算審核？","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:14.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:19.812000+08:00","text":"這根本就是一個1,330億元的大黑箱，甚至是一個10年3,000億元的大黑箱。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:19.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:20.812000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:20.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:22.457000+08:00","text":"你跟我講4個字：「只是方案」。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:25.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:31.568000+08:00","text":"晶創臺灣是一個方案，那是行政院的方案，但是我們所有的計畫一定都會按照預算法來編列，一定都會的。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:32.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:32.089000+08:00","text":"主委，對不起！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:32.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:43.792000+08:00","text":"我覺得我今天比較激動，因為我真得很希望能夠搞清楚，在座有很多都是我的老師，所有人都非常在意AI的發展，但是我們現在沒有人搞得清楚我們3年後可以花多少錢？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:43.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:44.572000+08:00","text":"4年後可以花多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:46.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:50.515000+08:00","text":"我們TAIDE做得這麼努力，可是就一億多元，夠嗎？","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:50.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:11:53.556000+08:00","text":"我們的算力現在全球排名第17名，夠嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:11:53.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:15.446000+08:00","text":"然後我們問來問去，每次算力的數字都不一樣，你在報告書裡寫100 PetaFLOPS，然後現在變成116，剛剛我們又知道5年內算力要變成280，加上大南方又變成480，我們好不容易可以排到亞洲第2名，對不對？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:15.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:17.207000+08:00","text":"我們想要在亞洲排名前三名嘛！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:17.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:17.947000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:17.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:18.947000+08:00","text":"我們將來還會有產業……","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:18.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:24.711000+08:00","text":"我要告訴主委，亞洲第二名是2024年的第二名，你480加上去可能……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:25.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:26.592000+08:00","text":"產業的投入還沒有算，新加坡……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:27.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.042000+08:00","text":"所以我們想知道你是怎麼算的？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.242000+08:00","text":"南韓的數字2028是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.522000+08:00","text":"你2028要花多少錢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.702000+08:00","text":"什麼樣的計畫執行方案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:28.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:29.823000+08:00","text":"這些我們沒有看到，我們希望可以看到來跟大家一起努力，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:29.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:12:30.123000+08:00","text":"這個主委可以幫忙嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:12:30.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:07.057000+08:00","text":"請主計單位把預算的細節交付到本委員辦公室，否則我認為這樣的作法，我就給你6個字：「希望科學計算」，到底我們有什麼樣的目標，請用科學的方法去計算，不要用喊的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:07.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:13.861000+08:00","text":"合理的預算，科學計算、合理預算，讓我們臺灣真的成為AI影響力中心，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:14.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:17.402000+08:00","text":"好，我會請委員的2位老師一定把它弄好，送到您的辦公室。","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:18.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:19.844000+08:00","text":"請主計單位，好不好？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:20.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:20.544000+08:00","text":"好，主計單位會協助。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:22.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:22.526000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝葛如鈞委員。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:23.026000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:29.026000+08:00","text":"技術的人都做得非常完整，現在是資料整合的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:29.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:32.468857+08:00","text":"好，我們會把它弄完整，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:32.768857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:35.054571+08:00","text":"因為時間已經到了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:35.354571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:13:37.354571+08:00","text":"謝謝葛如鈞委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:13:37.654571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:14:09.368857+08:00","text":"本席在這裡要先提醒一下，我們在備詢的時候還是有一個備詢的規則，我知道大家都很心急，我也知道，因為葛如鈞委員很客氣，也有很多師生關係在裡面，但是來到委員會要尊重備詢的規則，除非委員有詢問到，或是主席有邀請，不然的話，我希望大家不要那麼心急，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:14:09.668857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:14:13.097429+08:00","text":"我們慢慢的說明和解釋，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T11:14:13.397429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T11:14:16.826000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請葉元之委員。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:02:10 - 11:13:34","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時2分）謝謝主席。有請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好！"],["葛委員如鈞：你好！主委，本席手上有一張空白支票，如果你撿到一張空白支票，你會隨便填一個數字就拿到銀行去兌換嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會。"],["葛委員如鈞：不會嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我會送到警察局。"],["葛委員如鈞：當然嘛！我是沒有想要講太多，但是確實，有人亂填就應該要送到警察局。主委，既然你知道空白支票不要自己隨便亂填金額去兌現，正常人都不應該這樣做，那為什麼國科會在空白支票上寫得不清不楚，自己就填上3,000億元，要求全臺灣的人民必須要兌現買單，要求我們就應該要通過預算呢？好，我們來看一下，112年11月行政院通過晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案，規劃113年到122年10年3,000億元，我手上就是這個計畫書的核定本，實行期間113年到117年，一共5年，在這5年當中，政府到底要做哪些事情？主委知道這本核定本、報告書有幾頁嗎？我直接告訴你，36頁，36頁裡面的預算有多少錢？主委知道嗎？這一題應該可以回答吧！這5年要花多少錢在晶創計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實我們的預算是逐年編列。"],["葛委員如鈞：你知不知道？不知道，我告訴你，你說逐年編列，好，這一份呢！這裡面我們看到的是1,330億元，等於這樣一頁、我們幫你算過了，一頁36億元、再一頁又36億元。"],["吳主任委員誠文：未來是預估，立法院也是逐年審嘛！"],["葛委員如鈞：我先講，為什麼我今天帶這麼多本上來？我們沒有看到第三年要花多少錢？第四年要花多少錢？第五年要花多少錢？第六年要花多少錢？我們都沒有看到，預算法裡面寫得很清楚，分年計畫當你在續年的時候，就是要講清楚每一年到底要花多少錢；如果講了之後有修正，還可以再來修，但是我們現在看到的內容其實非常的不完整。我先確認一下，我剛不小心就撕掉了72億元，我們先看一下，這本核定本主委有沒有好好看過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們通常最注意的還是明年的預算，因為它是比較真實的。"],["葛委員如鈞：2024年到2028年，這裡面有沒有明年？有嘛！明年在這裡面至少就有一百多億元。"],["吳主任委員誠文：183億元。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，你現在講183億元，我待會跟你交流一下。這裡面你沒有看過沒有關係，我直接告訴你，第1頁到第16頁是講國際和臺灣的現況跟困境，第17頁開始到第31頁是談我們的願景，但是沒有KPI、OKR和人力資源的配比，到底我們要怎麼完成？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：報告委員，那個是方案……"],["葛委員如鈞：老師稍微等我一下，待會我會分享一下內容。我想先問，我們從2月開始就不斷的要晶創計畫的內容、規劃和執行的作法，但是到現在我們都還是只有得到這一本。老師您可以回答，其他的計畫、內容在哪裡？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：報告委員，那個是方案，所以它本來就沒有細部的KPI，我們每一年的計畫都在審。114年的晶創計畫現在是183億元，並不是上面寫的一年300億元，所以我們是詳細的審核，那是整個方案的推動是這個樣子。委員，你看過很多的審查計畫你應該知道，其實整個方案的意義是這個。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝老師！老師在AI、還有半導體真的做了很多事，以前我們在臺大共事也很愉快，您也指導很多，但是我要先講，目前我們真的認為晶創計畫的預算還有很多細劃的討論空間，如果我們沒有辦法一一的列出來，就會發生這個做到一半發現有問題，那個到底是不是屬於晶創計畫？老實說，如果你們拿晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案去預算書裡蒐尋，那是完全找不到的，每一個專案的名稱都變得不一樣。我們來講剛剛老師講到這個、主委也提到的這個183億元，我們來看一下，我們的預算，你在媒體上喊200億元，然後你在國科會業務報告的第4頁提到183億元，結果昨天國科會提供給我們的資料，我說晶創計畫明年加起來到底是多少億元？加起來是90億元。然後我們還把經濟部的加進去98億元，還有什麼呢？我們再去看了裡面，我想請主委說明一下，晶創臺灣114年度的預算到底是200億元？183億元？還是98億元？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在是183億元。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在是，那之前是？未來是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院的預算書就是這樣，國科會就是……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起！你們的預算書我唸一下，114年度國科會執行之晶創計畫，含他部會主題計畫，加起來是90億390萬元，如果只有國科會是90億490萬元，把經濟部加進去後是98億390萬元，如果我們只有36頁，然後預算書裡面每一個名字都不一樣，就會有這個問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：預算書應該是正確的，國科會98億元、經濟部73億3,000萬元、數發部7億7,000萬元、教育部2億5,000萬元，國發會、農業部和衛福部也都有，只是金額比較少。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以183億元不會再變了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會啦！183億元。"],["葛委員如鈞：如果多了或少了呢？你確定哦？要確定哦！我們都有錄影記錄哦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果立法院要給我多一點……"],["葛委員如鈞：回去算一下，金額很可能會變哦！我真的要拜託主委和各位官員，請回去看一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們再詳細……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們在預算書裡面的每一個計畫都不叫做「晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案」，為什麼每一個名字都不一樣？你們想加多時就加多，想變少時就變少嗎？我在這裡跟主委交流一下，預算法第三十九條：「繼續經費預算之編製，應列明全部計畫之內容、經費總額、執行期間及各年度之分配額，依各年度之分配額，編列各該年度預算」。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，葛委員，那個……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們連明年的預算數字都會變了，後年呢？大後年呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員，晶創方案是一個方案，行政院要編列真正的預算時是要有計畫的，那個計畫如果是多年期，那個計畫都會有，所以我們在晶創方案……"],["葛委員如鈞：什麼叫做「只是一個方案」？這是一個已經核定的方案，10年3,000億元，核定本已經出來，5年1,330億元，什麼叫「只是一個方案」？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那是行政院核定，不是立法院核定，但是我們報立法院的一定是計畫。"],["葛委員如鈞：那我們要怎麼監督？你們的計畫不清楚我們要怎麼監督？預算法第三十九條。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的計畫都清楚，現在只是哪些計畫要納在晶創方案裡面。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。我認為，大家都很認真的在做事，我們在預算書裡真的沒有看到這個名字的計畫，每一個名字都不一樣。"],["吳主任委員誠文：晶創方案不是計畫，但是在晶創方案裡面可能會有一些計畫，它沒有把晶創方案寫出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：那每一個名字都不一樣啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：都是跟晶片有關的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒關係，我相信你們有一個PDF檔是有列出來的，本席在此希望、要求國科會的主計單位依據預算法第三十九條，請在今天下班前找到這個檔案，PDF也好、Excel也好，把應該列名的資訊、分年的計畫、各年度的分配額，以符合預算法第三十九的內容，用書面的方式送到本席的辦公室，否則我覺得這是不是規避預算審核？這根本就是一個1,330億元的大黑箱，甚至是一個10年3,000億元的大黑箱。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：你跟我講4個字：「只是方案」。"],["吳主任委員誠文：晶創臺灣是一個方案，那是行政院的方案，但是我們所有的計畫一定都會按照預算法來編列，一定都會的。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，對不起！我覺得我今天比較激動，因為我真得很希望能夠搞清楚，在座有很多都是我的老師，所有人都非常在意AI的發展，但是我們現在沒有人搞得清楚我們3年後可以花多少錢？4年後可以花多少錢？我們TAIDE做得這麼努力，可是就一億多元，夠嗎？我們的算力現在全球排名第17名，夠嗎？然後我們問來問去，每次算力的數字都不一樣，你在報告書裡寫100 PetaFLOPS，然後現在變成116，剛剛我們又知道5年內算力要變成280，加上大南方又變成480，我們好不容易可以排到亞洲第2名，對不對？我們想要在亞洲排名前三名嘛！對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們將來還會有產業……"],["葛委員如鈞：我要告訴主委，亞洲第二名是2024年的第二名，你480加上去可能……"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業的投入還沒有算，新加坡……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們想知道你是怎麼算的？南韓的數字2028是多少？你2028要花多少錢？什麼樣的計畫執行方案？這些我們沒有看到，我們希望可以看到來跟大家一起努力，好不好？這個主委可以幫忙嗎？請主計單位把預算的細節交付到本委員辦公室，否則我認為這樣的作法，我就給你6個字：「希望科學計算」，到底我們有什麼樣的目標，請用科學的方法去計算，不要用喊的。合理的預算，科學計算、合理預算，讓我們臺灣真的成為AI影響力中心，好嗎？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我會請委員的2位老師一定把它弄好，送到您的辦公室。"],["葛委員如鈞：請主計單位，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，主計單位會協助。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：技術的人都做得非常完整，現在是資料整合的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會把它弄完整，謝謝。"],["主席：因為時間已經到了。謝謝葛如鈞委員。","本席在這裡要先提醒一下，我們在備詢的時候還是有一個備詢的規則，我知道大家都很心急，我也知道，因為葛如鈞委員很客氣，也有很多師生關係在裡面，但是來到委員會要尊重備詢的規則，除非委員有詢問到，或是主席有邀請，不然的話，我希望大家不要那麼心急，好不好？我們慢慢的說明和解釋，謝謝。","接下來我們有請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}