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接下來三號人員的老主委在講啊你那個哈嘎的哈嘎維蘭福的主委啊安道的哈嘎的鄉親"},{"start":265.011,"end":272.016,"text":"臺語就已經動不滿你對嗎?所以你要強烈地跟我們行政院：還有你跟文化部也要強烈地來溝通,因為溝通：那些客家本身的民主好少,但是我們的立場你要站穩"},{"start":288.246,"end":293.069,"text":"其實我們兩個名稱都是建議所以我們就用我們的公法、社法來寫兩個名稱所以兩個名稱在說我們目前尤其是你怎麼不懂日啊?怎麼不懂日?臺灣台語要用的名稱怎麼不懂日?"},{"start":317.603,"end":345.379,"text":"我相信每一個群體每一個群體都有一些要主宗但你們要沙啡、分手、遵守你講的我就是全部遵守客家、鄉親、基督也遵守但是總得這個名稱上絕對不可以這樣好,我接著要講也請次長在如果你這樣定義下去其實我們發現有的時候在私下甚至在學校、同學之間"},{"start":346.499,"end":368.497,"text":"他說 你是臺灣人 那不可以說台語那不可以說的台語是什麼台語是什麼台語所以你會造成族群之間的一個衝突嘛所以我們真的希望這個一定要審慎而且剛剛我看很多委員也覺得大家要互相尊重本席在這邊還要表達"},{"start":370.851,"end":388.151,"text":"我們我相信李次長、谷主委還有本席本身我們小時候小時候我們說的國語我們認為的國家語言我們的國語我們一定那時候就是認為就是所謂的現在說的華文中文"},{"start":388.922,"end":417.47,"text":"但是後來就是因為族群大家要平等不能把客語、臺語叫做方言不是,都是國家語言所以我們認同,我們也尊重但是你不能現在對台灣人我現在臺語,我就是閩南語我就是喉嚨話,不行啦我也是半個喉嚨人講喉嚨話,我媽媽也是我一半協議也是這樣所以基於族群"},{"start":418.649,"end":441.829,"text":"平等還有我們特別提到在這個過去我們國家語言發展的會議上北區、東區的會議本席這邊的資料客家族群的抗議聲音你們都無視然後就這樣通過然後文化部這一次客家鄉親最氣憤的就是"},{"start":446.089,"end":455.103,"text":"在這個原本多年以來的閩南語語言能力認證考試現在全部改成臺灣台語認證考試"},{"start":458.086,"end":482.722,"text":"那這個所有的族群大家都有意見我相信原住民語原住民的委員原住民族的這些原住民的我們的同國人還有我們客家族群甚至很多剛剛黃建斌委員他也代表著說閩南語的族群大家都不認同這種定義所以我們希望"},{"start":483.757,"end":490.583,"text":"能夠大家互相尊重。請文化部不要專斷專行。然後,我們請客委會一定要為客家鄉親發聲。臺港對你的安保不滿,你日程會重申,你永遠在面對你的客家鄉親。臺港說你們出去了,做不得安養,你退表時的客家鄉親,你聽到嗎?"},{"start":512.632,"end":512.893,"text":"社盟委員會有強臺客"},{"start":515.734,"end":522.916,"text":"在內討論這件事：同臺價的上映：你的立場是臺價的副總主席：我的立場是臺價的副總主席：我就是遵從基礎：基礎做不成本：你客家人愛意節不行：原住民愛意節不行：你如果全部是臺灣的國家語言：作為少數的臺價普遍："},{"start":544.781,"end":551.969,"text":"臺灣的語言也會有合作：主委,你的立場還不對,還不夠：所以我們大家不滿,我代表的就是客家鄉親"},{"start":564.706,"end":565.607,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":579.465,"end":607.917,"text":"不好意思謝謝委員再給我一分鐘其實像剛剛委員所提到的在107年之前我們這整個臺灣社會對於國語的定義事實上就像我們現在說的這個語言是所謂的華語更精確來講可能就是當年的北京話然後也做了一些轉換可是在語言發展法之後我們現在對國語的定義它不再是國家語言的縮寫我們現在定義所有的臺灣固有族群使用的都是國家語言"},{"start":608.777,"end":615.86,"text":"所以台灣語言、台語不能夠只是閩南語我在這邊我要特別強調民進黨你過去你一直在爭取族群的融合你說轉型正義結果現在民進黨執政了然後就多數暴力多數霸凌少數我們不可諱言"},{"start":636.124,"end":657.576,"text":"所謂的閩南語的現在在台灣也算多數是最多數所以你既然掌握了權力結果你的族群平等竟然做出這樣讓大家痛心我要在這裡替少數的族群講話那既然如此按照你國語的這種定義你台語就要一樣的邏輯思維來定義才對"},{"start":661.26,"end":682.613,"text":"所以你不能台語讀後閩南語臺灣語言、臺語是我們共同生活在臺灣包含馬族語也是、原住民語也是甚至臺灣手語、客語、華語、閩南語都是這個HoloWay全部都是好不好好啦 謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:32:33 - 11:43:59","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時32分）謝謝主席，本席請客委會古主委，還有文化部李次長。"],["主席：古主委、李次長有請。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你好。剛剛牛委員已經問了，我也要問，客語是不是台語？我已經聽到古主委的答案了，你說要互相尊重，對啊！那既然互相尊重，為什麼台語就是閩南語，就是Holo話？我們客家人……臺灣語言，台語也是包含各種的語言，所以這個同樣問題，請李次長簡答。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問，再次跟委員說明，台語目前是被定位為一個專有名詞，就是台語。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，請暫停、請暫停，為什麼特別定義台語是屬於閩南語或是所謂的Holo話？你竟然在我們的國家語言發展報告特別提醒，是你們制定的國家語言發展報告提醒，由於多數國家語言已經面臨傳承的危機，所以若再加上語言名稱的爭議，恐造成這些語言互相掣肘，更加速彼此消亡的速度，既然是為了母語的傳承，政府施政就不應該引起恐慌，更改名稱的急迫性並不是優先選項，還造成族群之間的衝擊。本席要在這邊代表我們客家鄉親、客家族群表達強烈的抗議。"],["李次長靜慧：收到，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個部分，我們希望大家互相尊重。"],["李次長靜慧：是的。當然定位、名稱，就是剛剛講的，我們從主人的這個概念上，也有很多的台語團體跟使用台語的民眾，希望他們的名稱能夠被定義下來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他希望被定義，但是這個定義，這就好比如果說中文的他希望定義中文就是國語，或是我客家人希望定義台語也就是客語，這個就會造成互相掣肘，以及族群之間的對立，政府施政不應該如此。我同步也要特別提醒客委會主委，你身為代表我們客家族群的最高行政官員，在我們客委會擔任主委，要替客家鄉親講話。互相尊重，我們當然互相尊重，其實我從小，我媽媽講台語，我爸爸講客家話，我父親家族全部講客家語，我母親家族全部講Holo話，所以兩邊大家都互相尊重，所以從小……沒有錯，我們在民間，我小時候台語就是閩南語，講得不是很好的時候，我舅舅也會說你的台語怎麼會講得不流利？所以在民間，台語就是閩南語，我們大概有這樣的俗稱沒有錯，但是你在國……等於政府這樣強制的，剛剛在很多的答詢裡面，你這樣強制的直接把台語就定義是閩南語，其實這個真的是很不恰當，所以我們要代表客家族群特別來抗議。","接下來我要跟主委講，你是客家委員會的主委，這麼多的客家鄉親，大家對你很不滿，你知道嗎？所以你要跟行政院還有文化部強烈的溝通，你要溝通，我們客家本身的人數好少，但是我們的立場你要站穩。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。其實這個名稱都是建議，我們用我們的講法、我們的寫法來寫這個名稱，所以這個名稱來說，我目前認為是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能同意，不能同意臺灣台語這樣的名稱，不能同意才對。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想每一個群體都有他自己的主張，我認為這個社會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說的我全部知道，客家鄉親他們也知道，但是這個名稱上絕對不可以這樣。我接著要講，也提醒次長，如果你這樣定義下去，其實我們發現有的時候在私下，甚至在學校同學之間，他說你是臺灣人，怎麼不會說台語？不會說的台語是什麼台語？這會造成族群之間的衝突，所以我們真的希望這個一定要審慎，而且剛剛我看很多委員也覺得大家要互相尊重。本席在這邊還要表達，我相信李次長、古主委還有本席本身，我們小時候說的國語，我們認為的國家語言，我們的國語，那時候一定認為就是現在說的華文、中文，但是後來就是因為族群大家要平等，不能把客語、台語叫做方言，不是！都是國家語言，所以我們認同，我們也尊重，但是你不能現在對臺灣人說，現在台語就是閩南語、就是Holo話，不行啦！我也是半個Holo人，會講Holo話，我媽媽也是，我一半血液也是這樣，所以基於族群平等……","還有我們特別提到，過去我們國家語言發展的會議上，北區、東區的會議，本席這邊的資料，客家族群抗議的聲音你們都無視，然後就這樣通過。這一次客家鄉親最氣憤的就是，原本多年以來的閩南語語言能力認證考試，現在全部改成臺灣台語認證考試，對此所有的族群大家都有意見。我相信原住民語、原住民的委員、這些屬於原住民族的國人，還有我們客家族群，甚至是剛剛黃建賓委員也代表說閩南語的族群，大家都不認同這種定義，所以我們希望大家能夠互相尊重，請文化部不要專斷專行。我們請客委會一定要為客家鄉親發聲，大家對你們有不滿，你一定要重視，你要怎麼面對我們的客家鄉親？大家說你不理他們，不可以這樣，你們代表的是客家的鄉親，你知道嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員邀請大家來討論這件事情，聽大家的聲音與意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們要多聽客家鄉親的意見。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的立場要堅定。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們的立場就是大家要互相尊重……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們要尊重他們，但讓客家人矮一截不行，原住民矮一截不行。"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在就是全部都是臺灣的國家語言，作為少數的臺灣語言……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我就在臺灣，臺灣的語言也有客語。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，臺灣的國家語言也有客語。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委，你的立場還不夠，所以大家不滿，我代表的就是客家鄉親。"],["古主任委員秀妃：大家有不一樣的聲音，大家的聲音我們聽到了，會再跟大家討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是討論，你要堅定立場。好，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要講是不是？"],["李次長靜慧：不好意思，謝謝委員再給我一分鐘，其實就像剛剛委員所提到的，在107年之前，整個臺灣社會對於國語的定義，事實上就像我們現在說的這個語言，也就是所謂的華語，更精確來講，可能就是當年的北京話也做了一些轉換。可是在語言發展法之後，我們現在對國語的定義，它不再是國家語言的縮寫，而是定義它為所有臺灣固有族群使用的語言都是國家語言，所以一樣的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！臺灣語言、台語不能夠只是閩南語，我在這邊要特別強調，民進黨過去一直在爭取族群融合，你說轉型正義，結果現在民進黨執政了，然後就用多數暴力，多數霸凌少數我們不可諱言，說所謂「閩南語」的，現在在臺灣也算多數，且是最多數。你既然掌握了權力，結果你的族群平等竟然做成這樣，讓大家痛心，我要在這裡替少數的族群講話。","既然如此，按照你對國語的這種定義，台語就要以一樣的邏輯思維來定義才對，所以你不能台語獨厚閩南語，臺灣語言、台語是我們共同生活在臺灣，包括馬祖語也是、原住民語也是，甚至臺灣手語、客語、華語、閩南語、Holo話都是，好不好？好啦！謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位我們請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","羅智強","涂權吉","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","黃國昌","呂玉玲","蘇清泉","丁學忠","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概\n況，並備質詢；二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育\n部，就「臺灣台語」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正\n「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}