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請李次長好 次長好那今天就你們所謂這個引起大家恐慌的這個規定齁我來這邊跟您做個意見交流下一頁 謝謝"},{"start":27.98,"end":42.273,"text":"延續剛才徐昭偉所講的更改名稱的急迫性跟引起民眾恐慌這個區塊我想跟您先請教依據國家語言發展法"},{"start":43.066,"end":65.425,"text":"然後你們有了這些規定那我想請教一下下面有一個臺灣手語是臺灣聽障語人世間使用的手勢及視覺表現出來的自然語言那下一張 謝謝我想請教一下那全世界在通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別您可以跟我指教一下嗎"},{"start":66.744,"end":88.775,"text":"抱歉委員這個不是我的專業我無法回答或者我們可以再提供請專業人士來提供資料我想請專業人士會後有機會讓我們了解而且這是視覺語言你們可能不要用一個公文就了事所以我想要知道的是請問我們通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別在哪裡那接下來"},{"start":90.711,"end":112.32,"text":"你們剛才這邊有談到台灣的語言發展法我相信很熟所以這邊談到的自然語言、台灣手語那請問你講了台灣的範圍我們在講世界通用的手語台灣用的手語那請問台澎金馬的手語算不算?台灣澎金馬的手語又跟台灣的手語差在哪裡?"},{"start":115.838,"end":140.55,"text":"這個部分我們當然是要用臺灣來泛指牌棚金馬這四個區域所通用的手語我們都稱之為臺灣手語那因為這些人沒有辦法發言所以如果你在臺、台、台語這件事情上引起這麼多的爭議那請問這些無法發言的用手語的人他要怎麼跟你講我剛才講的這些東西"},{"start":141.69,"end":165.818,"text":"那是你覺得泛指啊但是你在講臺灣的時候我們看到的只有所謂的臺灣那大家空間的想像就臺灣島嘛 對吧在名稱的這個議題上我們一直都有跟廳長或農人協會他們多段的溝通是跟他們溝通以後他們決定要用這個名詞我就現在不知道您的這個臺灣手語跟世界手語跟台澎金嘛在用的差別是什麼嘛這個部分今天請你回答"},{"start":166.878,"end":172.786,"text":"或者是會後提供資料好嗎好然後也做個參考然後接下來我想請教一下請問這個台什麼意思呃我不懂委員的您要詢問的啊那你告訴我下面一個台是什麼意思"},{"start":187.252,"end":205.15,"text":"在你們的第7頁第4個引起大家恐慌的臺灣台語第一個台是我們講的繁體字的台第二個台是簡體字的台那請問我為什麼要用簡體字的台來代表臺灣我的問題有兩個第一個臺灣然後再來台語請問這兩個台的差別在哪裡"},{"start":207.033,"end":211.899,"text":"所以你還沒有跟大家討論臺語就是一個專有名詞了嘛那剛才大家各界在討論的臺語難道就只有你們所講的閩南語嗎"},{"start":225.475,"end":226.897,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":246.479,"end":274.045,"text":"那你們已經列了第4點臺灣台語請告訴我這個臺跟那個臺的差別所以你如果說是專有名詞在我們都還沒有共同認同這個臺的時候它已經是你們認為的臺啊那我一直很confuse這個臺跟另外一個臺有什麼差別好接下來齁來再往下來那個次長要不要試唸一下RexRix不知道你說Rix嗎齁然後接下來這個"},{"start":277.318,"end":279.601,"text":"文化部次長講的我這講的其實是另外一個更大的議題然後接下來下一張"},{"start":302.74,"end":303.22,"text":"一、二、三、四"},{"start":324.83,"end":346.545,"text":"你怎麼會被他們都帶著走 我們羅馬拼音不是這麼唸的呀所以次長我要指出來的問題是上個會期你以為我在質詢原名相關的議題 所以你唸都不敢唸那我想請問一下原住民的系統是用哪種系統"},{"start":348.832,"end":378.127,"text":"語言的系統?羅馬拼音好,那臺語呢?你講的閩南語呢?我們目前在教育部裡面有四種表達方式有四種表達方式嗎?所以你,來,剛才那一頁你是不是念一勾、挖勾?對不對?然後主委,其實我們羅馬拼音是一桌一桌啊中間就有很大的差異這是我要指出來的問題你在語言教學的系統,你準備好了沒有?我跟你學的系統是很接近的啦"},{"start":379.264,"end":393.268,"text":"所以我要學族語的時候還很大的障礙所以教學系統這個系統的完整性、多樣性不是你們講說今天我要這樣子做就可以做的大家很多困難所以我延續剛才我們張偉講的"},{"start":395.009,"end":409.134,"text":"那你們臺語已經先界定它成專文有名詞再往下那請問那我們臺灣原住民語請問臺灣原住民族語言跟臺灣平鋪族群語言是什麼意思一個是民族語言然後一個是族群語言"},{"start":410.094,"end":426.846,"text":"你可以告訴我他們的差別在哪裡嗎這個部分是原住民委員會建議我們用這樣子來定名的你是主政的這個單位他們這樣子講你難道沒有研究到我剛才講的那麼多議題嗎好接下來請問你說得出來台灣這16組嗎好時間關係我們不要講了一下那這16組如果"},{"start":437.199,"end":461.788,"text":"你把閩南語當成是一個語言叫臺語那請問我是不是你如果一定要把臺灣關上去臺灣澳美族語、臺灣泰雅族語、臺灣葛馬蘭族語、臺灣卡拉卡拉夫我們為什麼難道你們覺得我們的人少就可以把我們全部概括叫做原住民語嗎那大家知道我們有這麼多族嗎你們在解決問題的時候常常把我們當成同一族在處理跟解決原鄉不一樣、都會不一樣"},{"start":464.463,"end":486.675,"text":"語言的概念上是不是也應該思考：而且如果是如同部長講的冰違語言：哪些語言更冰違：所以不要引起我們恐慌好不好大家說說看你把它檯面上 檯面化而且很單一的一個取向我們民族情感是被多大的傷害謝謝"},{"start":497.111,"end":497.131,"text":"好"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:44:15 - 11:52:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時44分）謝謝主席，還有各位立院同仁和相關部會的夥伴，大家好。我是不是可以先請文化部次長？"],["主席（徐委員欣瑩）：請李次長。"],["林委員倩綺：次長好。今天就你們引起大家恐慌的規定，我來這邊跟您做個意見交流。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：延續剛才徐召委所講「更改名稱的急迫性」跟「引起民眾恐慌」這個區塊，我想先跟您請教，依據國家語言發展法，你們有了這種規定。下面有一個「臺灣手語」，這是「臺灣聽、語障人士間使用手勢及視覺表現出來之自然語言」。我想請教一下，全世界通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別，您可以指教一下嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：抱歉委員，這個不是我的專業，我無法回答，或者我們可以再請專業人士提供資料給您。"],["林委員倩綺：我想請專業人士會後有機會讓我們瞭解，而且這是視覺語言，你們可不要用個公文就了事。我想知道的是，請問我們通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別在哪裡？","接下來，你們剛才這邊有談到，臺灣語言發展法相信你們很熟，這邊談到的自然語言、臺灣手語，你也講了臺灣的範圍，當我們在講世界通用的手語、臺灣用的手語，請問臺、澎、金、馬的手語算不算？臺、澎、金、馬的手語跟臺灣的手語差在哪裡？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分我們是用「臺灣」來泛指「臺、澎、金、馬」這4個區域所通用的手語，我們都稱之為臺灣手語。"],["林委員倩綺：這些人沒有辦法發言，如果你在台語這件事情上引起這麼多的爭議，請問這些無法發言而用手語的人，他要怎麼跟你講我剛才講的這些東西？那是你覺得「泛指」……"],["李次長靜慧：我們在名稱這個……"],["林委員倩綺：但是你在講臺灣的時候，我們看到的只有……所謂的「臺灣」，大家對空間的想像就是「臺灣島」對吧？"],["李次長靜慧：在名稱這個議題上，我們一直都有跟聽障或聾人協會多方溝通。"],["林委員倩綺：是啊，但是……"],["李次長靜慧：跟他們溝通以後，他們決定要用這個名詞。"],["林委員倩綺：我現在就不知道您的「臺灣手語」跟「世界手語」在臺、澎、金、馬使用的差別是什麼嘛！這個部分，今天請你回答，或者是會後提供資料，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["林委員倩綺：也做個參考。"],["李次長靜慧：OK，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我想請教一下，請問這個「臺」是什麼意思？"],["李次長靜慧：我不懂委員要詢問的……"],["林委員倩綺：那你告訴我下面那個「台」是什麼意思？"],["李次長靜慧：就是我們目前通常會……就是剛剛那個「臺」字的簡寫。"],["林委員倩綺：在你們的第7頁，第4個引起大家恐慌的「臺灣台語」，第一個「臺」是我們講的繁體字的臺，第二個「台」是簡體字的台嘛！請問我為什麼要用簡體字的台來代表臺灣？我的問題有兩個，第一個「臺灣」，再來「台語」，請問這個字的差別在哪裡？"],["李次長靜慧：台語我們把它當作是一個專有名詞，「臺灣」因為是正式的指稱，所以我們用正體字……"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們還沒有討論，「台語」就是一個專有名詞了嘛！那剛才大家、各界在討論的，台語難道就只有你們所講的閩南語嗎？或者是在南部大家講的Holo話嗎？","我問我的長輩說……次長說閩南語叫做「Ban-lam-gu」……我還沒有跟他講閩南語，而是請問「閩南語」要怎麼講，因為我的長輩住高雄嘛！他說就是「Holo話」啊！然後我又問，你有聽過「Ban-lam-gu」嗎？有啦！也有人這樣講，所以每個地方講的都不一樣啊！","你們已經列了第4點「臺灣台語」，請告訴我這個「臺」跟那個「台」的差別，如果你說這是專有名詞，在我們都還沒有共同認同這個字的時候，它就已經是你們認為的字了。我一直很confuse，這個「臺」跟另外一個「台」有什麼差別？","接下來再往下，次長，要不要試唸一下？"],["李次長靜慧：rikes……不知道。"],["林委員倩綺：你說rikes嘛！那接下來的這個呢？很難唸嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["林委員倩綺：那再接下來。"],["李次長靜慧：Icowa 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ko，中間就有很大的差異，這是我要指出來的問題，你在語言教學的系統準備好了沒有？我跟你學的系統是很接近的，我要學族語的時候還有很大的障礙，所以教學系統的完整性、多樣性不是你們講今天我要這樣子做就可以做的，大家有很多困難……"],["李次長靜慧：是。"],["林委員倩綺：我延續剛才我們召委講的，你們已經先界定「台語」成專有名詞，請問「臺灣原住民族語言」跟「臺灣平埔族群語言」是什麼意思？一個是「民族語言」，一個是「族群語言」，你可以告訴我它們的差別在哪裡嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分是原住民族委員會建議我們用這樣子來定名的，是不是可以請……"],["林委員倩綺：你是主政的單位，他們這樣子講，你難道沒有研究到我剛才講的那麼多議題嗎？","接下來，請問你說得出臺灣這16族嗎？時間關係，我們不要講了，是這16族，如果你把閩南語當成是一個語言，叫台語，如果你一定要把「臺灣」冠上去，為什麼不叫臺灣阿美族語、臺灣泰雅族語、臺灣噶瑪蘭族語、臺灣卡那卡那富族語，難道你們覺得我們的人少，就可以把我們全部概括叫做原住民語嗎？大家知道我們有這麼多族嗎？你們在解決問題的時候，常常把我們當成同一族處理及解決，但是原鄉不一樣，都會不一樣，語言的概念上是不是也應該思考？而且如果是如同次長講的瀕危語言，哪些語言更瀕危？所以不要引起我們恐慌，好不好？大家本來說的好好的，現在你把它檯面化，而且很單一的一個取向，我們的民族情感被多大的傷害！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","羅智強","涂權吉","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","黃國昌","呂玉玲","蘇清泉","丁學忠","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概\n況，並備質詢；二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育\n部，就「臺灣台語」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正\n「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}