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如果你標了這個東西我想就是一個必須要百分之百的你如果混的時候你就要被罰"},{"start":385.231,"end":402.904,"text":"我們標了本地的鮮乳可是我們就沒有辦法來沒有檢驗的方法的時候這明年才會出來嘛我們就沒有辦法在今年可以做相關的檢驗嘛是不是我現在的做法是這樣子齁就是第一個我希望衛福部趕快盡速的通過"},{"start":403.724,"end":404.084,"text":"還有就是"},{"start":429.512,"end":446.146,"text":"關於氣候變遷我們知道現在葡萄的種植第一個它要什麼時候種因為氣候的影響加劇導致於它現在沒有辦法像過去一樣預估耕種的期間你有發現這個嗎"},{"start":448.468,"end":466.328,"text":"我們有發現其實氣候變遷對於整個的產區往北移甚至於適當的栽培期已經變化了造成很大的困擾所以是不是應該要鼓勵農民變成溫室的種植我們一向是鼓勵所以我們過去有溫室的補助是四年兩千"},{"start":472.261,"end":480.145,"text":"所以你們是不是應該要協助我們這些葡萄農民來增加就是說來讓他們就是變成溫室因為如果不是溫室的時候他們對於這種氣候異常的情況可能會加劇"},{"start":498.874,"end":499.514,"text":"還有一個題目就是我們現在"},{"start":521.323,"end":545.207,"text":"每年除漁的量是62萬公噸但是如果我們以標準的除漁的方式我們沒有辦法達到減碳現在如果有就是說我們是不是農業部應該要協助這些除漁的處理廠商尤其是我們有一些像黑水蟒這樣子的生物來協助我們來"},{"start":550.387,"end":551.368,"text":"在方法學部分"},{"start":559.994,"end":579.869,"text":"布長可不可以協助我想廚餘用黑水盲這個議題其實過往這一兩年來一直有支持的也反對的所以我們現在在想辦法把這些可能的一些風險能夠把它降低以後能夠讓這個黑水盲的產業變成一個產業然後也會對於這個廚餘有效的去去去去化"},{"start":580.923,"end":606.16,"text":"對,因為台灣的廚餘就是這麼多當然我們不希望它一直變多,我們希望減少但是事實上的情況就是這樣子那如果能夠達到減碳的目標的這樣子的情況下我希望我們應該要共同來協作好不好我們會努力來做,特別是黑水芒它變成是一個蛋白質的主要來源那個是一個非常好的蛋白質來源"},{"start":606.96,"end":607.06,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:03:48 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12:14:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（12時4分）謝謝主席，我想要請農業部的陳部長，還有畜牧司司長。"],["主席：請陳部長，畜牧司李司長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，我想請問你，你4月說你建議進口的鮮乳都改名為「長效乳」，這個部分衛福部有沒有採納你的看法？"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。我們農業部的立場是一致的，我們還是跟衛福部建議用「長效乳」，特別是90天的部分，衛福部有收到我們正式的公文，但是他們後面還要開會討論，因為他們考量的面向可能跟我們是不一樣的，但最後的決定權是在衛福部。"],["謝委員衣鳯：最後的決定權在衛福部，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你看到了，這是衛福部在6月5號預告的，它預告的方向跟目前我們國內的酪農他們的想法是不是不一致？"],["陳部長駿季：是有不一致的地方，然後我們根據這個預告，我們也再次跟衛福部溝通，希望他能夠採納我們的方案。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你有再去溝通了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們應該有，有再去溝通，對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是畜牧司長他們去的？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以，你有再發文跟他說了嗎？你有表達清楚……"],["陳部長駿季：發了兩次的公文。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們國內酪農業者的心聲嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們再發了兩次，我們跟酪農是站在一起的，而且我們的立場不會改變。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們知道現在大家在爭議的就是「班班有鮮乳」這個政策，鮮乳的價格，我看到現在在我們的共同契約裡面，鮮乳是16元，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：14加2，兩塊錢是運費，相加就是16塊。"],["謝委員衣鳯：16塊嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那16塊的部分，我想請問部長，你長期以來都了解國內牛乳的生產成本，我們國內牛乳一瓶的生產成本是多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們訂這個價格也是根據乳廠大家的討論，還有他的生產成本去討論，這部分不能跟現在看到的零售端的價格相比，因為在超市端有30%的上架費等很多支出，然後我們這次在跟乳廠談的時候，我們把乳品送到學校去其實也有品牌的效益在裡面，所以綜合考量後是用14塊作為定價，而且是跟乳廠有討論過的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們看到了這是根據上下游，但是長期以來，臺灣大學動物科學系徐教授說，國內生乳的收購價格是26元，美國跟紐西蘭的收購價是15.76元跟14.5元，這樣的價格差異會不會導致我們的乳品沒有競爭力？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在推這個政策的過程中，就是透過消費端去擴大我們使用者的需求，學校為學童加鈣，其實它會帶動學童喝牛奶的習慣，也會帶動家長，換句話說，目前前端的生產成本可能比較高，所以我們要想辦法讓我們的生產效率提高，特別是把寡產牛做一個淘汰。在完整的酪農升級轉型計畫方案中，有一部分的寡產牛要淘汰，把乳量做計畫性的生產，現在每一年的乳量大概47.2萬噸，我們的目標是43萬噸，如果43萬噸的話，它的價格就可以拉上去。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你講的這是一連串的改變，但現在還沒看到結果，如果寡產的就是泌乳量比較少的那些牛淘汰掉以後，我們牛乳的生產成本能不能降低，也要仰賴全世界原物料的價格，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這次我們訂14塊是指這一學期，我們會隨時去檢討，如果它的價格的確有比較偏低的情況之下，我們在下學期就會做調整。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為你現在的定價跟我們國內生乳的收購價格比較起來的確就不一致，是不是？就有很大的差異性，這跟你強調的，要推動酪農業的永續政策就是推廣國產鮮乳這樣的想法也相當的背道而馳，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您這邊所提供的資料是每一公斤好像是在14.5塊，我們的價格是195毫升14塊，所以它的價格不能直接這樣做對比……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我當然知道，我是說……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們會去……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我說這個是價格的差異性……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是成本價，未來如果等紐西蘭牛乳又進口了，會不會產生有混充的現象？我也看到了，你們有提供了辨識混充的方法學，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是要到明年才可以成功，是不是？明年下半年，那今年呢？"],["陳部長駿季：整個方法學已經送到衛福部，我們也希望他儘快的審完。第二個部分就是，我們有貼出百分之百國產鮮乳的標章，特別是在送到學校去……"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候可以審完？"],["陳部長駿季：這部分我們要再跟衛福部溝通，看看可不可以儘快，但是相對的我們也貼標章，就是百分之百國產乳的部分，希望在做市場鮮乳標章的部分，我們會特別區分，如果你貼了這個標章，就必須要百分之百是國產乳……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是我們標了本地……"],["陳部長駿季：你如果混充的時候，你就要被罰。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們也標了本地的鮮乳，可是我們就沒有辦法來，沒有檢驗方法的時候，這個明年才會出來，我們就沒有辦法在今年可以做相關的檢驗，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在的作法是這樣子，第一個，我希望衛福部趕快儘速的通過；第二個部分就是，當我們現在開始上路的時候，我會去做一些抽檢做保存去了解，雖然我們現在還沒有真正法定的檢驗方法，但是我還是可以去了解，市售的牛乳到底是不是真的有混充，雖然在檢驗方法沒有公告之前不能裁罰，但是我至少可以了解是不是有混充的現象，後續可能就會加強查緝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有關於氣候變遷，我們知道現在葡萄的種植，第一個，它要什麼時候種？因為氣候的影響加劇，導致於現在沒有辦法像過去一樣預估耕種的期間，你有發現這個現象嗎？這要怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：有，我們有發現，其實氣候變遷導致整個的產區往北移，甚至於適當的栽培期已經在變化了，造成很大的困擾。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，所以是不是應該要鼓勵農民變成溫室的種植？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一向都鼓勵，所以我們過去……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那相關的補助呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們過去對溫室的補助是4年2,000公頃，然後現在我們一年對溫室的補助，我如果沒有記錯的話，應該是23億，23億補助溫網室。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們是不是應該要協助我們的葡萄農民來增加，讓他們變成溫室，因為如果不是溫室的話，這種氣候異常的情況對葡萄種植的影響可能會加劇。"],["陳部長駿季：我想特別在臺中、彰化地區的部分，其實我們臺中區農業改良場一直持續的推廣，希望葡萄農能夠用設施栽培，但是他們考量到種種的誘因還有成本的部分，我們還會持續去努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。主席，不好意思，我跟你借1分鐘，不好意思。","還有一個題目就是，我們現在每年的廚餘量是62萬公噸，但是如果我們以標準的方式來處理廚餘，我們沒有辦法達到減碳，現在如果有，我們農業部是不是應該要協助這些廚餘的處理廠商，尤其是我們有一些像黑水虻這樣的生物來協助我們，把我們的廚餘變成有機質，並且增加我們的土壤碳匯，在方法學這個部分，部長，可不可以協助？"],["陳部長駿季：我想廚餘用黑水虻來處理這個議題，其實過往這一、兩年來一直有支持的，也有反對的，所以我們現在在想辦法把可能的一些風險降低以後，能夠讓黑水虻的產業變成一個產業，然後也能讓廚餘有效地去化。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為臺灣的廚餘就是這麼多，當然，我們不希望它一直變多，我們希望減少，但是事實上的情況就是這樣子，如果能夠達到減碳的目標的情況下，我希望我們應該要共同來協作，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對。我們會努力來做，特別是黑水虻，它變成是一個蛋白質的主要來源，那是一個非常好、非常好的蛋白質來源，所以我們後續會再用專案的方式，因為現在科技計畫已經在做了，我們會看那個成果……"],["謝委員衣鳯：有在做了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，科技計畫在做了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員今天早上完美壓軸的質詢。報告委員會，現在我們休息，下午2點30分繼續開會。","休息（12時14分）","繼續開會（14時36分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，繼續進行質詢。","下一位請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","王育敏","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","徐富癸","麥玉珍","張雅琳","羅智強","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","劉建國"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}