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︎"},{"start":102.694,"end":132.106,"text":"一個20歲到29歲的女性他說我可以當代理孕母可是我卻不能決定我自己動的卵羊去做試管嬰兒為什麼這個差別為什麼30歲才可以部長好我想吳市長是專家沒有這個是我們在專家會議討論裡面來講那論的這個部分必須要有一定的社會經濟能力的評估以後才這樣設定那一個20歲他可他可以變代理母但是他卻不能決定自己是來處理自己的受精卵"},{"start":134.602,"end":136.423,"text":"為什麼這兩個之間的年齡落差?接下來當然"},{"start":163.052,"end":175.458,"text":"我要跟這個部長再談到其實民眾也很好奇喔當時的草案其實允許成立代孕服務機構那我想問一下衛福部目前其實盤點了全台灣可以可能會有多少家的代孕服務機構"},{"start":177.608,"end":198.146,"text":"我們也是需要一定要成立這樣的機構目前沒有不是你的草案裡面說要成立代孕服務機構所以你們評估有可能我們有能力可以成立多少家嘛一定是我們評估有能力成立我才會去做這樣子的入法規劃嘛那評估會成立多少家"},{"start":199.448,"end":227.507,"text":"我們未來還是要看需求啊成立了沒有需求還是沒有問題那我問你 你的評估結果你覺得需要多少家嘛你做的法規 入法的規範難道不用做這法規前面的評估嗎你有多少能量有可能可以有多少家我們目前台灣相對應的這些機構或組織有多少有能力去做這件事情衛福部有沒有掌握嘛我的問題是這個嘛這是大家的問題啊這是大家的疑問啊部長"},{"start":230.315,"end":255.659,"text":"我想委員提的提的建議齁如果我們沒有把它理得太清楚我們會馬上來來來不然我要再繼續問啦我也是把大家的問題要反映啊對於孕母跟受託者來說最關鍵的事情就是這個叫做代孕契約之定型化內容與其應記載及不得記載事項這是最重要的事情那我要問衛福部這個會怎麼定"},{"start":259.194,"end":260.116,"text":"這個我們目前也是在討論當中"},{"start":261.772,"end":288.327,"text":"我的意思是說你在五月五月應該在朔前裡面你在五月的時候你做了這個草案的預告這個名詞出來以後大家對這個東西會有很多的疑問可是這幾個月下來很多相關的疑問都得不到衛福部的回答我自己覺得這是一件不太負責任的事情你把這個概念跟名詞跟法律入法丟出來了當大家都有疑問的時候你卻說沒有我這個還在討論中"},{"start":290.646,"end":304.19,"text":"部長,你覺得這是OK的嗎?你不用跟我講完整的內容,你要告訴我這個內容裡面可能會有什麼東西,或它的價值是什麼。對。部長,包括大家疑問說如果發生了爭議,在這個待遇發生爭議。"},{"start":318.294,"end":325.019,"text":"後續的調解機制是什麼在這裏面我們其實都沒有看到我要說的事情很簡單我自己並不全然反對代孕"},{"start":326.909,"end":349.572,"text":"我自己並不全然反映代孕但是對於社會上面對整體代孕機制尤其是對於孕母的保障的部分當時這幾個月下來提出很多的問題但這些問題到目前為止我都沒有看到衛福部進而進一步的出來回應這些具體的問題只看到衛福部啪一聲在五月的時候丟出一個草案裡面擺入了一個代孕的專章"},{"start":351.459,"end":351.479,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":378.035,"end":400.529,"text":"嗯,現在也不是專章啦,大概是在寫專節啦,專節啦,那因為都一直在討論當中,所以其實也有很多委員一直在催時程,但是我們也快不了,因為就是有這麼多的疑惑,我們需要去跟專家再討論,再釐清,再擔心。不然我只要說的一件很簡單的事情,再一點點時間齁。"},{"start":402.91,"end":431.221,"text":"今天代孕這一個事情事關重大我剛剛說了我也不全然反對可是確實社會有很多到底代孕這件事情怎麼運作它的機制是什麼遇到的問題該怎麼解決相關的問題我今天到目前為止我還是沒有辦法看到衛福部針對這些問題有一個相對清晰的回應如果沒有辦法有個清晰的回應一下子就要把這個代孕這件事情啪丟到法裡面"},{"start":432.645,"end":459.104,"text":"其實我覺得途征非常非常多的困擾也會讓相對比較沒有爭議的剛剛說到包括女同志或單身女性可以往前走的部分受到很多的拖延這是為什麼希望說是不是比較沒有爭議的部分可以先往前走因為大家也會有急的急迫的感覺至於代孕的部分我們把相關的問題跟解決的方案給釐清了以後要不要脫鉤處理或要不要另外處理我們不反對這個事情"},{"start":461.396,"end":483.871,"text":"所以我剛剛是透過我希望能夠把大家有的疑問讓部長知道至少部長你應該知道到目前為止衛福部針對這些問題看起來我們一直以來我們包括所知也好包括詢問也好私底下詢問也好或在各個大大小小的場合都沒有聽到衛福部有具體而清晰解惑的回答"},{"start":484.731,"end":501.847,"text":"其實委員的所知我們都知無不言言無不盡啦是一定提出來那如果知無不言言無不盡現在沒辦法提出就代表絕對沒辦法解決嗎可能還在專家的討論啦可能還在專家的討論部長我說你說知無不言言無不盡可是當大家提出來得不到回答難道是因為這些問題真的沒辦法解決嗎"},{"start":504.212,"end":505.933,"text":"但是衛福部還是有責任要告訴大家到底這些大家疑問的點或者是對保障擔憂的點"},{"start":520.717,"end":536.395,"text":"你的具體的方案跟回應是什麼如果沒有辦法我覺得就不應該匆忙的包括我認為甚至是不負責任的就把一個這樣子的代孕者概念放到草案裡面你又沒有辦法回答又要放我不懂這邏輯是什麼"},{"start":538.101,"end":567.083,"text":"議長可以嗎一般來講大概這個立法有很多執法規可以去解決的可以去處理的問題我知道執法規可以解決但我一樣要知道請問你所說的執法規是想要怎麼解決我你不用現在給我看條文至少概念上面要跟大家說我想這個部分我們會把我們的努力我知道你現在在這個法還在檢討中我知道還在檢討中我們會把我們努力的過程那這個還在檢討中但我希望不要在犯之前"},{"start":567.363,"end":567.403,"text":"好,好"},{"start":595.732,"end":596.198,"text":"好謝謝文謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:37:03 - 12:47:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時37分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，剛剛前面很多同仁其實都談到，也討論到人工生殖法接下來下一步的狀況，我自己其實不管是衛福部的公聽會或立法院公聽會，幾乎每一場我都參與了，也把每一場的會議紀錄跟各方的主張論述全部看過一遍。為什麼當時我特別希望先通過女同志跟單身女性人工生殖法，因為它共識相對高，尤其是在時間的流逝之下，其實有很多女性真的等不及。","接下來我想跟部長請教幾個更進一步的問題，我看了一下當時衛福部提供的草案，也請吳署長上來。如果以一位20歲到29歲的成年女性來看，她可以決定結婚生子，她在符合草案的條件下，她可以成為代理孕母。代理孕母20歲可以喔！但很奇怪，她卻不能夠自己決定凍卵後做試管嬰兒。因為我們在草案裡面說，對不起，單身女性要滿30歲，才能夠自己決定做後面的形成受精卵或試管嬰兒。部長，為什麼？","一個20歲到29歲的女性，她說我可以當代理孕母，可是我卻不能決定我自己凍的卵要去做試管嬰兒，為什麼只有差一步，為什麼30歲才可以，部長？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想吳署長是專家……"],["吳署長昭軍：沒有，這個是我們在專家會議討論裡面，認為這個部分必須要有一定的社會經濟能力的評估以後，才這樣設定。"],["洪委員申翰：那一個20歲的她可以變代理孕母，但她卻不能決定自己來處理自己的受精卵？這中間的落差大家看不懂啊！署長，不能只推給專家啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：這個本來就是你要自己懷孕、自己生子，那你的家庭狀況必須要去考量啊！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["吳署長昭軍：對，那剛剛提到這個是要成為被代孕的委託……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要先跟你反映，這點是很多民間團體很疑惑的地方，為什麼這兩個之間的年齡有落差？接下來我要跟部長再談到，其實民眾也很好奇，當時的草案其實允許成立代孕服務機構，那我想問一下衛福部，目前盤點了全臺灣可能會有多少家的代孕服務機構？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們也支持一定要成立這樣的機構，目前沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，你的草案裡面說要成立代孕服務機構，所以你們評估我們有能力可以成立多少家嘛！一定是我們評估有能力成立，才會去做這樣子的入法規劃嘛！那你評估會成立多少家？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們未來還是要看需求啊！成立了沒有需求還是沒有……"],["洪委員申翰：我問你的評估結果，你覺得需要多少家嘛！"],["吳署長昭軍：我們評估認為假設要做這件事，一定要有這樣的機構來幫忙。"],["洪委員申翰：你做了法規入法的規範，難道不用做法規前面的評估嗎？你有多少能量、可能可以有多少家，我們目前臺灣相對應的這些機構或組織，有多少能力去做這件事情，衛福部有沒有掌握嘛？我的問題是這個嘛！這是大家的問題，這是大家的疑問啊！部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提的建議，如果我們沒有把它釐得太清楚，我們會馬上來……"],["洪委員申翰：部長我要再繼續問，我也是反映大家的問題啊！對於孕母跟受託者來說，最關鍵的事情，就是這個代孕契約之定型化內容與其應記載及不得記載事項，這是最重要的事情。我要問衛福部，這個會怎麼訂？"],["吳署長昭軍：這個我們目前也是在討論當中，但是那應該在授權裡面。"],["洪委員申翰：我的意思是說，你在五月的時候做了這個草案的預告，這個名詞出來以後，大家對這個東西會有很多的疑問。可是這幾個月下來，很多相關的疑問都得不到衛福部的回答，我自己覺得這是一件不太負責任的事情。你把這個概念跟名詞還有法律入法丟出來了，當大家都有疑問的時候，你卻說沒有，這個還在討論中，部長你覺得這是OK的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為……"],["洪委員申翰：你不用跟我講完整的內容，但你要告訴我這個內容裡可能會有什麼東西。"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個預告以後，大家有很多的意見，我們都一直在蒐集、在開專家會議，所以可能在時間上，還沒有對外來發表結論。但是大家的疑問我們一定會去……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，包括大家疑問說如果發生了爭議，後續的調解機制是什麼？這裡面我們其實都沒有看到。我要說的事情很簡單，我自己並不全然反對代孕，但是對於社會上整體代孕機制，尤其是孕母保障的部分，這幾個月下來提出很多問題，但這些問題到目前為止，我都沒有看到衛福部進一步的出來回應這些具體的問題。只看到衛福部「啪！」一聲，在五月的時候丟出一個草案，擺入了一個代孕的專章，如果你不回答社會這些問題，或沒有能力具體回答這些問題的話，為什麼「啪！」一下丟出這個專章？如果今天衛福部針對這些爭議的問題都有能力回應，也能夠說服大家，我覺得要擺入專章或者什麼這可以討論。可是你明明擺出一副我沒有能力回應的問題，可是你「啪！」一下丟出這個專章，我看不懂這是為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：現在也不是專章，大概是專節。"],["洪委員申翰：對，專節，你把代孕入法了啊！"],["邱部長泰源：因為都一直在討論當中，所以其實也有很多委員一直在催時程，但是我們也快不了，因為就是有這麼多的疑惑，我們需要去跟專家再討論、再釐清、再擔心……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我只要說一件很簡單的事情，再一點點時間。今天代孕這件事情事關重大，我剛才說了，我也不全然反對，可是確實社會有很多對於代孕到底怎麼運作？它的機制是什麼？遇到的問題該怎麼解決？相關的問題，我到目前為止還是沒有辦法看到衛福部針對這些問題，有一個相對清晰的回應。如果沒有辦法有個清晰的回應，一下子就要把代孕這件事情「啪！」丟到法裡面，其實我覺得徒增非常非常多的困擾，也會讓相對比較沒有爭議的，剛剛說到包括女同志或單身女性可以往前走的部分，受到很多的拖延。這就是為什麼我希望比較沒有爭議的部分，是不是可以先往前走？因為大家也會有急迫的感覺，至於代孕的部分，我們把相關的問題跟解決方案釐清了以後，要不要脫鉤或另外處理，我們不反對這個事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員的寶貴意見。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我剛剛是希望能夠把大家有的疑問讓部長知道，至少部長你應該知道，到目前為止，衛福部針對這些問題，看起來我們一直以來，包括索資也好、私底下詢問也好，或在各個大大小小的場合，都沒有聽到衛福部有具體而清晰解惑的回答，但是看到條文……"],["邱部長泰源：其實委員的索資我們都知無不言，言無不盡，一定提出來……"],["洪委員申翰：如果知無不言，言無不盡，現在沒辦法提出，就代表沒辦法解決嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有些可能還在專家的討論……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你說知無不言，言無不盡，可是當大家提出來得不到回答，難道是因為這些問題，真的沒辦法解決嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為有雙方面的意見，所以我們現在也一直在開專家的會議。"],["洪委員申翰：是，我知道，但是衛福部還是有責任要告訴大家，到底這些大家疑問的點，或者是對於保障擔憂的點，你的具體方案跟回應是什麼？如果沒有辦法，我覺得就不應該匆忙的，包括我認為甚至是不負責任的，就把一個這樣子代孕概念放到草案裡面。你又沒有辦法回答，又要放，我不懂這邏輯是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：一般來講，大概這個立法，有很多子法規可以去解決、可以去處理問題……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道子法規可以解決，但我一樣要知道，請問你所說的子法規是想要怎麼解決？你不用現在給我看條文，至少概念上面要跟大家說。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分，我們會把我們的努力過程……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道你現在這個法還在檢討中，我知道還在檢討中……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把我們努力的過程以及討論……"],["洪委員申翰：但我希望不要再犯之前的狀況和問題，可以嗎？因為這些抗議的聲音都會來到我們各個委員的國會辦公室。他們問我，我去問衛福部，衛福部不給我答案，我也沒辦法回答這些民間的團體和這些關心的人。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會注意，如果委員有問題，我們是不是to the point，再把它能夠盡量解釋清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我希望我們針對這一連串的問題，可以再重新檢討，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長，接續我們請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}