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謝謝主席那不好意思麻煩一下我們邱部長謝謝部長好部長請問一下那不知道我們本席這次有觀察到今年比往年發生更多的社會案件那當然也搞得我們社會人心惶惶那不知道這部分部長有沒有注意到"},{"start":33.254,"end":48.352,"text":"對沒關係因為據我們目前看到發生很多社會案件像我們最近有看到學校同儕之間發生口角就把利器將人割喉致死還有多年照顧"},{"start":50.077,"end":76.516,"text":"失能失智者不堪照顧的沉重壓力殺死至親這個案件那這些悲劇也一再證明我們社會安全網仍有破口,不知道部長認同嗎?是,我想社會安全網我們過去幾年來真的是一直在努力但是可能還是沒有辦法完全的周全我們一定全力來改善"},{"start":77.762,"end":98.466,"text":"那這一部分其實我們有注意到那如果公權力可以提早介入像這個新北哥河跟高雄市母案這些事情如果公權力如果能夠提早介入這個憾事就能夠避免發生那陽性國中今年也可以平安的就讀高中"},{"start":98.746,"end":124.65,"text":"﹗"},{"start":125.451,"end":146.071,"text":"父親離異再婚母親自殺那繼母又因為毒品坐牢那衛祖父是槍炮案然後高雄四母案他的加害者是代業四個人同住一個家庭但是重點父母都領有身心障礙的手冊三人代業那個正父他是唯一"},{"start":146.271,"end":165.196,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":165.569,"end":191.638,"text":"是的,謝謝委員對這件事情的關心那我們也有做檢討那在橫向的方面當然就是教育體系跟那個關乎體系的一個連接點這個部分是不是可以再緊密一點那當然我們衛福部都會在社會安全網方面提供更多的資源來"},{"start":193.78,"end":218.114,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":218.675,"end":240.516,"text":"說實在話是不是我們針對社會這個漏網的媒介社工的部分是不是因為社工的部分真的太短缺了社工的部分如果割喉案的部分呢一個孩子在學校其實學校的確也有專輔人員然後再來他因為他是偏差少年"},{"start":240.964,"end":260.026,"text":"﹗"},{"start":260.254,"end":280.887,"text":"對啊 所以我們認為應該要加強我們衛福部保護性志工這一部分要加強可是據我們了解好像這些志工好像面臨似乎現在都面臨三高三缺的問題部長知道三高三缺嗎是志工還是社工保護性社工"},{"start":283.63,"end":304.04,"text":"3高就是流動性高然後這個風險高案件量高對因為今天保護性社工會這麼缺乏據我們了解這3高就是剛剛講的高案量高風險高壓力那3缺就是缺合作缺督導缺資源"},{"start":304.68,"end":333.329,"text":"那這些保護性社工缺乏所以我們一直認為政府早在這些就應該要事前先去做結果每次都是發生之後我們再去了解以後是發生了什麼情形我們覺得這麼多的社會案件你看這尤其這兩件喔它本來就應該是我們政府早就掌握資訊了可是並沒有事前去做所以我們一直認為應該是預防重於治療對不對"},{"start":335.706,"end":359.868,"text":"是的是的所以重點我們衛福部有沒有針對這部分去做檢討你看六都沒有一個縣市的社工是足兒的而且這個離職率還是都非常非常的高你看我們台南台南的這個離職率比護理師的離職率還高那針對這部分衛福部有沒有提出一些檢討的辦法"},{"start":361.92,"end":375.331,"text":"我在這邊還是要特別強調社工工作的多元化跟辛苦那我想衛務部應該提出更積極的計畫來留住社工的人才"},{"start":376.328,"end":377.828,"text":"謝謝委員我們在行政院推動強化社會安全網的第二期計畫裡頭"},{"start":398.234,"end":417.585,"text":"議員"},{"start":417.585,"end":434.77,"text":"﹗"},{"start":435.593,"end":464.693,"text":"對 所以這邊今天講這個凸顯這個問題啦因為保護性社工這個問題我們希望趕快因為已經知道原因了那衛福部就應該趕快去克服不應該讓這些憾事一再的發生像這些事情你看針對學生這個暴險少年還有這個社會的弱勢群體我們早就應該是預防重於治療那如果把這個社工的人數趕快去看怎麼樣去補足"},{"start":465.213,"end":466.453,"text":"好,還有針對我們最近也有發生"},{"start":489.639,"end":509.786,"text":"幼兒園,現在人家講幼兒在幼兒園到底安不安全,現在又發生孩童教保園治三肋兒監視器的畫面,就我們新北永和分校有發生這件事情,那個部長你知道這個案件嗎?"},{"start":513.329,"end":525.359,"text":"那是幼兒園那針對我們社家屬是不是本身在今年有要針對全台的監管員上線那目前情形到底如何"},{"start":529.531,"end":530.051,"text":"但是我們現在發現一個問題喔"},{"start":559.931,"end":581.605,"text":"衛福部托嬰中心監視錄影設備的設置及資訊管理利用辦法這第3條他針對指定場所安置監視設備那我沒有看到這個條例但是如果他沒有安裝的話有沒有有沒有罰則有依照兒少權法是有罰則有訂定罰則嗎有"},{"start":583.533,"end":601.23,"text":"已經有訂定法則了目前托嬰中心就應該要裝監視器如果他沒有裝是有法則的好那針對我們這次幼兒園發生他說什麼監視器硬碟啊損壞啊沒有盡快修復沒有辦法提供畫面那這部分也有法則嗎"},{"start":602.985,"end":628.916,"text":"跟委員報告這個幼兒園因為是教育部主管那我們衛福部是主管0到20歲的托嬰中心對那針對這部分沒有做沒有沒有修復這些部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有針對剛剛我講的衛福部托嬰中心這個監視器設置設備如果沒有做或者他說硬碟損壞沒有辦法提供畫面你有這個條例可是好像我們沒有看到這個罰則"},{"start":631.937,"end":652.124,"text":"我們的托嬰中心如果他沒有這個裝監視錄影帶這些都有法則因為我們地方政府的人員都會去查核那這是依照兒少權法裡面的明定托嬰中心必須要裝監視器那幼兒園是教育部主管那教育部並沒有對幼兒園一定強制性的要求要裝飾那個監視器"},{"start":655.74,"end":668.117,"text":"而少前法有規定特用中心應該要裝置監視錄影設備而且要保存30天阿如果他沒辦法提供影像可以限期改善或者是新台幣3萬以上30萬以下的花款"},{"start":671.468,"end":693.299,"text":"我們希望衛福部針對監管員這部分盡快趕快如期上線還有也要針對我們這些監視器該安裝沒有安裝甚至該提供他沒有辦法提供我覺得要訂定一個相關明確的針對這些法令還有這些配套一定要訂定明確然後針對監管員到時候"},{"start":696.22,"end":725.759,"text":"謝謝。"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:51:35 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14:03:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1248,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時51分）好，謝謝主席，不好意思麻煩一下我們邱部長。"],["主席：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，請問一下，本席這次有觀察到，今年比往年發生更多的社會案件，當然也搞得我們社會人心惶惶，不知道這部分部長有沒有注意到？"],["邱部長泰源：社會案件？"],["涂委員權吉：對，沒關係，因為據我們目前看到，發生很多社會案件，像我們最近有看到，學校同儕之間發生口角，就用利器將人割喉致死，還有多年照顧失能、失智者，不堪照顧的沉重壓力，殺死至親這個案件。這些悲劇也一再證明，我們社會安全網仍有破口，不知道部長認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，社會安全網我們過去幾年來真的是一直在努力，但可能還是沒有辦法完全的周全，我們一定全力來改善。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分其實我們有注意到，如果公權力可以提早介入，像這個新北割喉跟高雄弒母案，這些事情如果公權力能夠提早介入，憾事就能夠避免發生，楊姓國中生今年也可以平安的就讀高中，鄭姓男子現在也可以過正常的生活。這兩個部分其實我們政府應該早就掌握資訊，可是沒有能夠及時介入，部長你認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：因為你看這個新北割喉案，他的加害者其實是來自高風險的家庭，父親離異再婚、母親自殺，繼母又因為毒品坐牢，外祖父是槍砲案。然後高雄弒母案的加害者是待業，4個人同住一個家庭，重點是他父母都領有身心障礙的手冊，3人待業，鄭父是唯一的家庭支柱。所以我們認為，政府針對這一部分，一定有能力早就掌握這些資訊，但是為什麼這些事情還是會發生？是不是我們的社會安全網哪一個地方、哪一個環節出了問題？"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員對這件事情的關心，我們也有做檢討，橫向的方面當然就是教育體系跟觀護體系的一個連結點。這部分是不是可以再緊密一點，當然我們衛福部都會在社會安全網方面提供更多的資源，來落實以家庭為中心的評估需求與連結資源。"],["涂委員權吉：因為這些事情，其實我認為政府應該要在事前，明明這些是政府早就掌握的訊息，事前就可以防治。但是這些事情，卻是每次發生後才去現場瞭解，所以是不是這個機制產生了問題？說實在話，我們針對社會這個漏網的媒介，是不是因為社工的部分真的太短缺了？"],["張司長秀鴛：割喉案的部分，一個孩子在學校，其實學校的確也有專輔人員，再來因為他是偏差少年，因此他也有觀護體系的觀護人。所以在網絡跟網絡之間，彼此互相在資訊還有連結上可以更緊密，我想就如委員所說，這個漏網之魚，事實上是可以攔得到的。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！所以我認為應該要加強衛福部保護性志工，這部分要加強，可是據我們了解，這些志工是不是現在都面臨三高三缺的問題？部長知道三高三缺嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：是志工還是社工？"],["涂委員權吉：保護性社工。"],["張司長秀鴛：三高就是流動性高、風險高、案件量高。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為今天保護性社工這麼缺乏，據我們瞭解，這三高就是剛剛講的──高案量、高風險、高壓力；三缺就是缺合作、缺督導、缺資源。這些保護性社工的缺乏，所以我們一直認為政府早就該事前先去做，結果每次都是發生之後再去瞭解發生了什麼情形。這麼多的社會案件，你看尤其這兩件，他本來就應該是政府早就掌握資訊了，可是並沒有事前去做，所以我們一直認為，應該是預防重於治療，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以重點是衛福部有沒有針對這部分去做檢討，你看六都，沒有一個縣市的社工是足額的，而且離職率都還是非常的高。你看我們臺南的離職率比護理師的離職率還高，針對這部分，衛福部有沒有提出一些檢討的辦法？"],["邱部長泰源：我在這邊還是要特別強調，社工工作的多元化跟辛苦，我想衛福部應該提出更積極的計畫，來留住社工的人才。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，剛剛就有講，因為三高三缺，但現在就是因為保護性社工的缺乏，缺乏的問題也知道，那衛福部主管單位，難道都沒有辦法去改善這些問題嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，謝謝委員，我們在行政院推動強化社會安全網的第二期計畫裡頭，其實目前補助全國的保護性社工一共有1,391名。除了人數的增加之外，另外我們在薪資上也做了一些調整，以及風險加給部分也有增加。再來把他的職位也做了一些增加，多了一個資深社工的調整，讓他的升遷管道天花板拉高，還有加強他的專業訓練，這些都是在整體上，我們想留住人才的一些措施。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以今天凸顯這個保護性社工的問題，因為已經知道原因了，衛福部就應該趕快去克服，不應該讓這些憾事一再的發生。像這些事情，你看針對學生，這個曝險少年，還有社會的弱勢群體，我們早就應該是預防重於治療，把社工的人數趕快看怎麼樣補足，甚至比照我們怎麼慰留護理師的政策，我覺得保護性社工這一部分，我們也要去重視啊！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，我想我們一定會全力的，特別在預防方面，能夠做到預防的工作。"],["涂委員權吉：好，還有針對最近也發生的幼兒園事件，現在人家講幼兒在幼兒園到底安不安全？現在又發生孩童教保員自刪虐兒監視器的畫面，新北永和分校有發生這件事情，部長你知道這個案件嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：那是幼兒園……"],["涂委員權吉：對於社家署，今年要針對全臺的監管員上線，目前情形到底如何？"],["邱部長泰源：本來今年有在研議也有預算，但是因為法律不足……"],["涂委員權吉：現在是還在研議，還是要不要做？"],["邱部長泰源：現在我們已經在準備，應該明年可以上線，我們解決……"],["涂委員權吉：我們應該是確定要做吧？"],["邱部長泰源：確定要做。"],["涂委員權吉：部長你講研議我們聽了很害怕。"],["邱部長泰源：我是說現在在加強法規跟預算經費，然後明年可以上線。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這部分已經確定要做嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：確定。"],["涂委員權吉：但是我們現在發現一個問題，衛福部托嬰中心監視錄影設備設置及資訊管理利用辦法，第三條針對指定場所安置監視設備，我沒有看到這個條例，但是如果它沒有安裝的話，有沒有罰則？"],["張代理署長美美：有，依照兒少權法是有罰則。"],["涂委員權吉：有訂定罰則嗎？"],["張代理署長美美：有。"],["涂委員權吉：已經有訂定罰則了？"],["張代理署長美美：對，目前托嬰中心應該要裝監視器，如果沒有裝是有罰則的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對這次的幼兒園事件，他說什麼監視器硬碟損壞，沒有儘快修復，沒有辦法提供畫面，那這部分也有罰則嗎？"],["張代理署長美美：跟委員報告，幼兒園因為是教育部主管，我們衛福部是主管0到2歲的托嬰中心。"],["涂委員權吉：那針對這部分，沒有做、沒有修復的部分？針對剛剛我講的，衛福部托嬰中心的監視器設置設備，如果沒有做或者它說硬碟損壞沒有辦法提供畫面，你有這個條例，可是我們好像沒有看到罰則？"],["張代理署長美美：我們的托嬰中心如果沒有裝監視錄影帶，這些都有罰則，因為我們地方政府的人員都會去查核，這是依照兒少權法裡面明定托嬰中心必須要裝監視器。至於幼兒園是教育部主管，教育部並沒有對幼兒園強制性要求裝置監視器。"],["邱部長泰源：兒少權法有規定托嬰中心應該要裝置監視錄影設備，而且要保存30天，如果它沒辦法提供影像，可以限期改善，或者是處新台幣3萬以上，30萬以下的罰鍰。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我們希望衛福部針對監管員的部分，儘快、趕快如期上線，也要針對這些監視器，該安裝而沒有安裝的，甚至該提供而沒有辦法提供，我覺得要訂定一個相關明確的，針對這些法令和這些配套一定要明確訂定；再者，針對監管員萬一對這些問題沒有辦法調閱資料，一定要有一個明確的規範跟管理辦法出來。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：現在這些事情層出不窮，裝監視器我們覺得不單可以保障家長跟孩童的問題，其實對於教保員、對於園方也是一個自保的方式，所以這部分希望衛福部儘快來處理。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們儘快落實。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}