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院長,加油啊,祝你成功。另外,院長,今天的這個新聞有一個,就立法院的預算中心提出一個低薪的一個報告,有關低薪的報告當中,本席在這個質詢台上我講了好幾次,不論是央行提出報告,不論是監察院,"},{"start":120.247,"end":142.122,"text":"審計部提出報告,最後提出不外乎三個辦法,一個就是鼓勵企業加薪,第二個提高對低工資,第三個協助勞工的溢價能力。後兩者老實講,該發揮的都發揮了,就剩下企業而已。企業的部分本席上次有質詢你,要跟企業喊話,就我理解你還沒喊話,但是總統已經喊話了。"},{"start":143.863,"end":163.728,"text":"但是就我來說我相信你還有很多機會可以跟企業喊話更何況企業找你的機會非常的多還有一點本席提醒你一下以前行政院曾經提成立一個小組叫改善所得分配專案小組這個跨部會的小組後來居然取消掉了院長你知道這件事情嗎我要再瞭解一下你要去瞭解一下"},{"start":169.005,"end":195.539,"text":"如果說站在一個行政院部會連一個小組都解除掉的話很難讓人家相信說政府有那個決心跟魄力想要來解決現在低頻近頻低薪或低薪造成近頻的一個現象這個問題非同小可上次的論述當中我已經都跟你提過了麻煩院長再費心一下另外院長你在9月15號的時候有去過本席的選區七股對不對"},{"start":197.745,"end":220.963,"text":"那一次你特別去看太陽能光電的案場那個案場你去看是成功的案例啊但是有很多諸多失敗受到社會詬病甚至檢方介入甚至起訴的案件以及小惡假的現象本身必須在這邊慎重的提醒為什麼因為當初就是為了追求KPI啊"},{"start":222.028,"end":249.847,"text":"拼命的超車啊結果翻車了結果以至於整個綠能在推動的過程當中失去了正當性受到在野黨污名化也好受到社會的質疑也好以至於現階段我們要推動綠能變成是難上加難但是本席想要再提醒一下院長諸如此類的現象啊不是發生在太陽能業者而已還發生在什麼就天然氣的部分"},{"start":253.941,"end":274.613,"text":"我們現在天然氣的整個發展的目標2025的能源目標明年就到了50%天然氣30%燃煤20%再生能源現實上我們的天然氣大概目前佔4成燃煤的部分超過4成多一點核能的部分佔6.3%以至於再生能源的部分不到10%目前的規模大概是這樣子"},{"start":275.854,"end":294.335,"text":"在這種情況底下我們在2023年的時候提出了一個10年規劃案就是希望把這個天然氣的發電從20GW提升到47GW結果你提升的結果想要透過民間一起合作"},{"start":295.302,"end":323.395,"text":"以至於你用一個什麼方法?我擔心你一樣會陷入KPI的思考一樣可能會超車甚至有可能會翻車原因在哪裡?本席慎重的提醒你以前要跟台電簽訂這個購售條合約的時候購售電合約的時候也是所謂的PPA的時候他要五大條件工氣、土地、系統評估、環境核准函、地方政府同意函結果後來他改成什麼?他改成只要前三者後兩者不用"},{"start":324.315,"end":352.624,"text":"地方不用同意 環評先不用通過 但是你就可以先PPA了 院長你覺得這合理嗎地方現在最難以接受的說 突然之間這個地方要設廠 突然之間這個地方要設廠 完全不清楚以至於反彈非常的炸 當然會怪罪政府啊 以至於現在天然氣發電可能會重蹈太陽能 暗場一樣的結果"},{"start":354.81,"end":382.329,"text":"本席在這邊跟您說﹖一旦業者簽了這個PPA之後﹖他好像沒有退路﹖沒有退路了﹖因為違約金很高啊﹖他怕台電又處罰﹖因此呢﹖他只有往前衝﹖以至於衝突不斷再發生。 院長﹖這種不合理的方式本席強烈要求啊﹖要跟台電簽PPA不要急躁﹖一定要在五大條件恢復的情況底下才能來簽﹖"},{"start":383.933,"end":384.433,"text":"謝謝委員提醒。 天然氣發電廠它的設置"},{"start":399.67,"end":426.499,"text":"我們有一定的程序跟標準那應該也應該會一定要經過很多的環境影響評估沒有至於說的跟地方溝通不及的部分我們可以檢討在這個作為上如果能夠更加強跟地方的溝通了解來促進這個更可能性的成功我們願意這樣做院長問題是沒有成功本席跟你舉一個例子我手頭拿這一份資料就是堅決反對久違"},{"start":429.552,"end":456.16,"text":"設置了連署以前在網路上的連署高達一萬三千多份本席拿到厚厚的這疊也不過是兩千份而已後面還在連署當中這個案子在本席不斷努力的情況底下他已經撤掉了喔撤掉了最近又死灰復燃我們請部長來說明一下死灰復燃了而且還不止九位還多了一個寶村"},{"start":458.223,"end":459.625,"text":"報告委員 現在因為很多的產業都想要進駐台南"},{"start":482.875,"end":495.081,"text":"國務部長,我知道你的說法,南科旁邊需要電對不對?我問一下中科需不需要電?竹科需不需要電?竹科、中科有天然氣發電廠嗎?也沒有啊!親差公共欸!更何況!"},{"start":496.121,"end":522.376,"text":"我們旁邊就有一個森巴發電廠了你什麼東西都放在臺南你什麼意思啊不是 報告委員現在的電廠是滿足現在南科的需求不是滿足滿足現在南科只有2.3GW而已我們可以來算清楚你現在發展的是4.6GW是現實上提供之外外加Plus4.6GW南電北送的結果只要解決北電北方北部人不願意設電廠想要設在南部的需求而已啦"},{"start":523.649,"end":544.9,"text":"我們現在的科學園區在臺南還會持續的放大持續的增加所以我們在估計未來要滿足這邊的話水供業也會不足的旁邊還有新達電彩在改組旁邊還有森巴在偵測從一場偵測二場你沒事幹嘛全部都設在這邊"},{"start":546.411,"end":574.372,"text":"不是,沒道理啦!這個是我們要把這個...我跟你講,電的部分不需要做定性,就電的配置上面北中南要均衡,部長!都需要有電廠!需要有電廠,那你設在竹科?你為什麼不是設在中科?為什麼全部都設在南科?我們現在中科都有中科的電廠在...沒道理嘛!沒有沒有沒有!全部都是設在這邊,而且你現在就開快車,開到後來進入冰車,你後面我給你算一下,"},{"start":575.333,"end":594.386,"text":"不論是這一個九威天然發電廠、寶村天然發電廠,這幾個加起來,差不多是核能發電廠的量。 院長,你肺核的結果難道要讓台南來承擔嗎?委員這樣講的話有一點沉重啦,我覺得我們雖然... 你怎麼想要講得這麼沉重?我算出來的數字是如此。 我們除了均衡台灣之外,我們也要全島一命。"},{"start":605.725,"end":625.411,"text":"桃竹苗有桃竹苗的發電,台中有台中的發電,已經現在都有了,南部的發展,委員,報告委員,南部的發展會越來越快,難道我們不要先做桃竹苗嗎?我沒有說不發電,沒有人說不發電的道理,但是你選址還有配置,你要公平,你要分配清楚嘛。"},{"start":626.191,"end":653.596,"text":"明明已經被退掉的場為什麼可以重新再來?臺南的自治率臺灣臺南的自給率只有25%臺南的自給率25%能源的部分我跟部長說除了發電之外還有水利還有綠能我跟你說這個負擔的部分最近整個水利通過的整個那個聯外管線在哪裡?就在臺南啊"},{"start":654.335,"end":675.883,"text":"最近最新增加的廠在哪裡?也在台南啊!最近整個力能鋪設最多、增益最大在哪裡?也在台南啊!因為台南用電就增加非常的多,在未來會增加很多。每一個能源負擔的地方不一樣,你如果要算的話,下次大家可以來算清楚。因為我們現在要這個大南方計畫,會用很多電在台南。"},{"start":679.264,"end":702.848,"text":"不,我們現在蓋的墊就是希望在臺南能夠滿足進臺南的企業他們的用政所。你先把真正的建設建設出來再說,不要老是引進這些零幣銷運的建設來到臺南。我們不希望看到,只有看到零幣建設,連銀幣建設都沒有看到。那我請問一下部長嘛,人口數增加這麼多,就業人數這麼多,你改善了什麼生活?"},{"start":704.275,"end":720.738,"text":"我沒有看到政府改善什麼生活,我就看到政府來發電而已,著重於思考,沒有著重於生活啊。我們生活上面所需要的這個電跟水,那是基本的,我說的生活是交通,是住宅,是物價,是其他的生活機能。"},{"start":721.459,"end":723.12,"text":"新的企業本來大家誰會不希望有新的企業,企業不是很多都有來嗎?"},{"start":747.936,"end":749.117,"text":"有沒有去竹科?有沒有去南科?"},{"start":749.117,"end":767.033,"text":"報告委員,我想委員,我們可以跟台南市政府在進行更有效的溝通跟協商。市政府一直很希望引進更多更多的大廠到南部地區來。 我跟你講,市政府就是第一名中央的啊。中央跟地方政府在這個貿易政策上基本上都是一般的思考。 所以委員你要參與這樣的協商過程。"},{"start":769.375,"end":779.94,"text":"我完全沒有參與這樣的協商的過程,我看到了連居民都完全都不知道,每天都有新的電廠來在這邊,如果是你的話你會怎麼想?沒有一個大建設就是有電廠來,你願意嗎?我們核准都要環評啦,經過環評。"},{"start":788.263,"end":803.181,"text":"要地方政府同意 環評是事後的環評不是事前你現在五大核准條件是你達到PPA的合約之後你才去爭取所謂的環評跟地方居民的同意以至於現在早明不斷的原因在這邊 院長你要聽進去啊"},{"start":804.782,"end":814.485,"text":"這五大條件沒有放水的理由啊!法定的條件當然不容許放水。 責指之後我們必須要依照法定的程序來。 有任何放水不符合法定的條件請委員跟我們一起加強監督。"},{"start":830.148,"end":832.732,"text":"我希望能夠事先重演審查,不要想要KPI,KPI的結果之前的太陽能光電就是這樣的結果。"},{"start":844.298,"end":858.592,"text":"不要重蹈覆轍我們同意這個委員所指教的這個不是只有Follow這個KPI啦我們會按照法令許可的部分我們來進行我們也會要求這個臺電針對委員所提出來這個問題進行檢討"},{"start":862.336,"end":863.097,"text":"報告委員 在發展綠能的過程當中"},{"start":883.792,"end":909.731,"text":"天然氣來橋接現在的發電是必要的程序,這是國家的能源政策,我們也在進行第二次能源轉型。 它是一個橋接的過程。 廠設下去就不可能是橋接的啦,廠設下去可能是永久性的。 我覺得橋接的部分會喬了很久啦。 我覺得國家的能源政策沒有辦法進行第二次能源轉型,這是我們共同的責任。"},{"start":910.171,"end":934.973,"text":"我基本上我當然跟你共同責任阿我是執政黨的議員阿但是也是因為這樣的共同責任我必須要善盡提醒阿我覺得這個是重蹈覆轍嘛你之前的太陽能政策原來是對的阿可是方法是錯的阿我現在跟你討論的是方法不是討論政策目標阿我當然違反政策目標阿我們會按照這個委員的這個指教那台電會深刻的檢討我就請你們好好檢討一下嘛"},{"start":939.79,"end":940.213,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:25:20 - 10:41:03","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時25分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：卓院長好。聽說今天中午要吃和解飯，好像應該史上第一例嘛？史無前例嘛，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會吧！真的嗎？"],["郭委員國文：對，我印象中，我打聽的結果應該是史無前例，但中午要吃和解飯……"],["卓院長榮泰：以前陳建仁院長的時候也是多次這樣、院長之間有聯誼。"],["郭委員國文：立法院長邀行政院長應該是第一次，據我理解的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個也不是什麼邀，我們是約好的，沒有誰邀誰。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，誰主動都沒關係，重點是結果，結果有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["郭委員國文：結果有沒有信心啊？和解能不能達成？"],["卓院長榮泰：對國家有信心，對任何團結的動作就要深具信念。"],["郭委員國文：對韓院長要有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["郭委員國文：你如果能夠達成的話，這一頓和解飯我跟它算一下，總預算的金額高達3兆1,325億，如果能夠吃完這頓飯，你的行情就不一樣了，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：照委員這樣算，那民間的投資更大，我覺得這是國家整體發展，我們一起努力。"],["郭委員國文：這頓飯一定要吃，一定要和解，院長加油，祝你成功。","另外院長，今天有一個新聞，關於立法院預算中心提出一個低薪的報告，有關低薪的報告當中，本席在這一個質詢臺上講了好幾次，不論是央行提出報告、不論是監察院、審計部，我都要求它提出報告，結果這個報告的內容當中最後提出不外乎三個辦法，一個是鼓勵企業加薪，第二個提高最低工資，第三個協助勞工的議價能力。後兩者老實講，該發揮的都發揮了，就剩下企業而已，企業的部分，本席上次有質詢要您跟企業喊話，就我理解您還沒喊話，但是總統已經喊話了，但是就我來說，我相信您還有很多機會可以跟企業喊話，更何況企業找你的機會非常地多。","還有一點本席提醒你一下，以前行政院曾經成立一個小組，即改善所得分配專案小組，這個跨部會的小組後來居然取消掉，院長知道這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要再了解一下。"],["郭委員國文：你要去了解一下，如果說行政院部會連一個小組都解除掉的話，很難讓人家相信政府有那個決心跟魄力，想要來解決現在低薪造成近貧的現象，這個問題非同小可，上次的論述當中，我已經都跟您提過了，麻煩院長再費心一下。","另外院長在9月15號的時候有去過本席的選區七股，對不對？那一次您特別去看太陽能光電的案場，您去看的那一個案場是成功的案例啊！但是有諸多失敗受到社會詬病、甚至檢方介入、甚至起訴的案件以及小二甲的現象，本席必須在這邊慎重地提醒，為什麼？因為當初就是為了追求KPI，拼命地超車，結果翻車了，以至於整個綠能在推動的過程當中，失去了正當性，受到在野黨污名化也好，受到社會的質疑也好，以至於現階段我們要推動綠能變得是難上加難。","但是本席想要再提醒一下院長，諸如此類的現象不是發生在太陽能業者而已，還發生在什麼？就天然氣的部分，我讓您看一下現在天然氣整個發展的目標，2025的能源目標明年就到了，50%天然氣、30%燃煤、20%再生能源，現實上天然氣目前大概占四成，燃煤的部分超過四成多一點，核能的部分占6.3%，以至於再生能源的部分不到10%，目前的規模大概是這樣子。在這種情況底下，我們在2023年的時候提出了一個10年規劃案，就是希望把天然氣的發電從20GW提升到47GW，結果提升的結果，想要透過民間一起合作，以至於你用一個什麼方法，擔心一樣會陷入KPI的思考，一樣可能會超車，甚至有可能會翻車，原因在哪裡？本席慎重地提醒你，以前要跟台電簽訂購售電合約，也就是所謂PPA的時候，它要五大條件──供氣、土地、系統評估、環境核准函及地方政府同意函，結果後來改成怎樣？改成只要前三者，後兩者不用，地方不用同意、環評先不用通過，但是它就可以先PPA了，院長，你覺得這合理嗎？地方現在最難以接受的是，突然之間這個地方要設廠、突然之間那個地方要設廠，完全不清楚，以至於反彈非常大，當然會怪罪政府，以至於現在的天然氣發電可能會重蹈和太陽能案場一樣的結果。","本席在這邊跟你說，一旦業者簽了PPA之後，它好像沒有退路了，因為違約金很高，它又怕台電處罰，因此它只有往前衝，以至於衝突不斷在發生。院長，面對這種不合理的方式，本席強烈要求，跟台電簽訂PPA不要急躁，一定要這五大條件恢復的情況底下才能來簽，恢復到2023年以前，這是第一；第二，既有部分的業者，應該讓它有退場機制不要再擾民，有沒有可能？院長請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，天然氣發電廠的設置我們有一定的程序跟標準，也一定要經過很多的環境影響評估……"],["郭委員國文：沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於說跟地方溝通不及的部分，我們可以檢討在這個作為上，如果能夠更加強跟地方的溝通了解，來促進更可能性的成功，我們願意這樣做。"],["郭委員國文：院長，問題是沒有成功！本席跟你舉一個例子，我手頭拿的這一份資料就是堅決反對九崴電廠設置的連署，以前在網路上的連署高達一萬三千多份，本席拿到厚厚這一疊也不過是2千份而已，後面還在連署當中。這個案子在本席不斷努力的情況底下，它已經撤掉了，但是最近又死灰復燃……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長來說明一下。"],["郭委員國文：死灰復燃了！而且不只九崴，還多了一個寶椿，再加上本來七股就有很多綠電爭議的情況底下、太陽能案場一大堆的情況底下，我請教一下院長、部長，全臺灣沒有地方可以設這些能源發電廠了嗎？都一定要設在臺南嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在因為很多產業都想要進駐臺南，所以臺南需要能夠發電的……"],["郭委員國文：郭部長，我知道你的說法，南科旁邊需要電，對不對？我問一下，中科需不需要電？竹科需不需要電？竹科、中科有天然氣發電廠嗎？也沒有啊！隨便說說！更何況我們旁邊就有一個森霸發電廠了，什麼東西都放在臺南，你什麼意思啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，現在的電廠是滿足現在南科的需求……"],["郭委員國文：不是滿足，現在南科只有2.3GW而已，我們可以來算清楚，你現在要發展的是4.6GW，是現實上提供之外，外加4.6GW，南電北送的結果，只是要解決北部人不願意設電廠，想要設在南部的需求而已啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在的科學園區在臺南還會持續地放大、持續地增加……"],["郭委員國文：我知道會放大……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們估計未來要滿足這邊的話，水跟電都是不足的。"],["郭委員國文：旁邊還有興達電廠在改組，旁邊還有森霸在增設，從一廠增設二廠，你沒事幹嘛全部都設在這邊？"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["郭委員國文：沒道理啦！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們要把科學園區高值化，所以需要有電廠……"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，電的部分不需要就地性，在電的配置上面，北中南要均衡，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：都需要有電廠。"],["郭委員國文：需要有電廠？那你設在竹科啊！你為什麼不設在中科？為什麼全部都設在南科？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺中有臺中……"],["郭部長智輝：中科都有中科的電廠……"],["郭委員國文：沒道理嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["郭委員國文：全部都是設在這邊，而且你現在就開快車，開到後來一定會翻車，後面我跟你算一下，不論是九崴天然氣發電廠、寶椿天然氣發電廠，這幾個加起來差不多是核能發電廠的量耶！院長，你廢核的結果難道要讓臺南來承擔嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這樣講……"],["郭委員國文：院長，麻煩你回去計算清楚，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這樣講的話有點沉重啦，我覺得我們雖然……"],["郭委員國文：我也不想要講得這麼沉重，但我算出來的數字就是如此！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了均衡臺灣之外，也要全島一命，桃竹苗有桃竹苗的發電，臺中有臺中的發電，現在已經都有了，南部的發展……"],["郭委員國文：我知道有在進行、在規劃……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，南部的發展會越來越快，難道我們不要先做好準備嗎？"],["郭委員國文：我沒有說不發電，沒有人說不發電的道理……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["郭委員國文：但是你的選址還有配置要公平，你要分配清楚嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是的……"],["郭委員國文：明明已經被退掉的廠，為什麼可以重新再來？"],["郭部長智輝：臺南的自給率只有25%。"],["郭委員國文：臺南的自給率25%，能源的部分我跟部長說，除了發電之外，還有水力，還有綠能，我跟你說，這個負擔的部分，最近整個水力通過了，那個聯外管線在哪裡？就在臺南啊！最新增加的廠在哪裡？也在臺南啊！最近整個綠能鋪設最多、爭議最大的在哪裡？也在臺南啊！"],["郭部長智輝：因為臺南用電增加非常地多，在未來會增加很多。"],["郭委員國文：就是都在臺南啊，怎麼會沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：會增加很多。"],["郭委員國文：每個能源負擔的地方不一樣，你如果要算的話，下次大家可以來算清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在要做大南方計畫，會用很多電在臺南。"],["郭委員國文：問題是這個經濟成果也不是臺南獨享啦，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們現在蓋的電廠，就是希望在臺南能夠滿足進駐臺南的企業他們的用電……"],["郭委員國文：你先把真正的建設建設出來再說，不要老是引進這些鄰避效應的建設來到臺南，我們不希望只有看到鄰避建設，而迎臂建設都沒有看到。我請問一下部長，人口數增加這麼多，就業人數這麼多，你改善了什麼生活？我沒有看到政府改善了什麼生活，我只看到政府來發電而已，只著重於思考，沒有著重於生活啊！"],["郭部長智輝：生活上面所需要的電跟水，那是我們優先要去未雨綢繆的部分。"],["郭委員國文：那是生活上基本的，我說的生活是交通、是住宅、是物價、是其他的生活機能。"],["郭部長智輝：並不是滿足現在的需求，而是要滿足未來5到10年、20年的需求，所以現在蓋的電廠……"],["郭委員國文：現階段南科都說沒有缺電！你就講出來嘛，你們的總體發展是什麼？我看到的是現在全部都設在臺南。"],["郭部長智輝：現在臺南有很多地區都要讓新的企業進來發展，包括很多的……"],["郭委員國文：新企業？誰不希望有企業？企業不是很多都有來嗎？有沒有去竹科，有沒有去南科？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我想我們可以跟臺南市政府再進行更有效的溝通跟協商，市政府一直很希望引進更多、更多的大廠到南部地區來。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，市政府就是聽命中央的啊，中央跟地方政府在這個光電政策上基本上都是一脈的思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員也要參與這樣的協商過程，如果地方政府……"],["郭委員國文：我完全沒有參與這樣的協商過程，我看到的是連居民都完全不知道，每天都有新的電廠來設在這邊，如果是你的話，你會怎麼想？"],["卓院長榮泰：要積極一點跟地方政府來溝通。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是這樣子的……"],["郭委員國文：沒有一個大建設，就只有電廠來，你願意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們核准都要環評，要經過環評……"],["郭委員國文：環評是事後的環評，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：然後要地方政府同意。"],["郭委員國文：環評是事後的環評，不是事前。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["郭委員國文：現在五大核准條件是拿到PPA的合約之後，才去爭取所謂的環評跟地方居民的同意，以至於現在擾民不斷，原因在這邊。院長你要聽進去啊！這五大條件沒有放水的理由，你要事先有這五大條件，才能讓台電簽PPA啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：法定的條件當然不容許放水。"],["郭委員國文：他已經放寬了，他已經放水了！"],["卓院長榮泰：擇址之後我們必須要依照法定的程序來，所以……"],["郭委員國文：他基本上就是放水，結果才會造成今天這樣的爭議嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：有任何放水、不符合法定的條件，請委員跟我們一起加強監督。"],["郭委員國文：好，五大條件從五降為三，麻煩院長把三恢復到五就好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：他一定有他標準的程序，我們一定照程序來進行。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩從嚴審查。"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部一定是取得許可……"],["郭委員國文：我希望能夠事先從嚴審查，不要想要KPI，KPI的結果，之前的太陽光電就是這樣的結果，不要重蹈覆轍。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們同意委員所指教的，不是只有follow這個KPI，我們會按照法令許可的部分來進行，也會要求台電針對委員所提出來的這個問題進行檢討。"],["郭委員國文：郭部長，台電所有的部分，你要全面性地檢討，我講白一點，我看到的部分裡面，全部倚重整個天然氣的發電而已，燃煤也要降低，核能也要廢除，然後太陽光電又有一定的侷限性，以至於你現在幾乎都倚重在天然氣的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在發展綠能的過程當中，以天然氣來橋接現在的燃煤發電是必要的程序。"],["郭委員國文：我可以理解橋接，但這可能是替代性的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是國家的能源政策，我們也在進行第二次能源轉型。"],["郭委員國文：也可能會變成永續性的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：它是一個橋接的過程。"],["郭委員國文：廠設下去就不可能是橋接的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是。"],["郭委員國文：廠設下去可能是永久性的。"],["卓院長榮泰：至少目前這個階段要讓它這樣成功。"],["郭委員國文：我覺得橋接的部分會「橋」很久。"],["卓院長榮泰：否則國家的能源政策沒有辦法進行第二次能源轉型，這是我們共同的責任。"],["郭委員國文：基本上我當然跟你有共同的責任，我是執政黨的一員啊！但是也因為這樣的共同責任，我必須要善盡提醒，我覺得這個是重蹈覆轍嘛！你之前的太陽能政策原來也是對的，可是方法是錯的啊！我現在跟你討論的是方法，不是討論政策目標啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會……"],["郭委員國文：當然不會違反政策目標啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會按照委員的指教，台電會深刻的檢討。"],["郭委員國文：我就請你們好好檢討一下嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是的……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼五要放寬成三？沒有道理嘛！"],["主席：謝謝……"],["郭委員國文：院長、部長，拜託了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是芬蘭語言高中的同學，我們在此表示歡迎他們的參訪。Thank you for your visit。","下一位請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}