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卓院長 還有郭部長我想 郭部長您就任以來兩次出國都剛好落在立法院總質詢的期間那今年6月去美國 9月去日本那6月新聞說您在美國當地拜訪美國"},{"start":69.724,"end":77.787,"text":"公務出國報告還沒有看到郭部長6月美國出國的報告。 經濟部聯絡人說郭部長的出國報告是密件,對此本席我也沒有打算索取該密件。"},{"start":98.221,"end":122.293,"text":"此次希望說經濟部要端出具體遭傷的一個成果,不要只有畫大餅。那本席查了一下經濟部投審會7月到9月的新聞稿,也沒有看到說來自美國新的一個投資。那本席再強調一次,請問部長何時會有來自美國的新投資呢?"},{"start":124.313,"end":141.464,"text":"報告委員,我們大概就是去強化原本在臺灣上一個會期那他們在這個有意願來臺灣的這些廠商,包括這個輝達,包括AMD,包括這個"},{"start":146.34,"end":146.42,"text":"那會不會來投資臺灣?"},{"start":172.745,"end":191.745,"text":"我們努力我們一定要努力因為他有兩個選項一個他要去馬來西亞一個他要去印度因為他的老闆是印度人所以我們是希望他留在台灣台灣的優勢要讓他充分的了解因為台灣在半導體這個領域裡面"},{"start":193.046,"end":193.526,"text":"我希望有一個好的成果"},{"start":217.305,"end":228.95,"text":"那個卓院長本席是支持綠能發展風電太陽以及光電都贊成那當初民進黨政府推動離岸風電國產化我這邊念一段經濟部的新聞稿"},{"start":235.093,"end":250.523,"text":"經濟部說,我國離岸風電基礎設施尚未完備,而且尚未建構國內本土產業鏈,設置成本相對比較高,故需要明確目標。"},{"start":253.342,"end":256.145,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":273.601,"end":283.56,"text":"當初經濟部說三遭可以把關而且確保風電國產化的罰款能夠砍短購匯率以及解約"},{"start":285.438,"end":301.756,"text":"到了經濟部,郭部長您來主政經濟部上任以後,就替風電業者大開方便之門,只要風電開發商在如期併網,完工前提下,國產化問題不受約束。"},{"start":306.061,"end":334.441,"text":"臺電8月發電成本資料顯示向民間風力發電業者購電每度高達6.59元等於差不多6.6元那風電業者荷包賺滿滿那政府卻想想辦法來替這些風電業者免除罰款不堪等賭的匯率這難道不是變相圖利嗎那個有什麼看法"},{"start":335.642,"end":361.298,"text":"報告委員,風電這個命題是這樣,就是說我們在過去確實是如你指證的,有準售價格。那麼也在希望鼓勵國產的廠商能夠努力的讓它有競爭力。但是我們在兩個月前,受到國外的廠商到歐盟去WTO去告我們。"},{"start":365.12,"end":369.623,"text":"對,這是以前那現在呢這個不一樣因為已經進步到這個階段所以他們外國的這個廠商啊他們發現說這個國產化是這個對他們來講這個在交易上面"},{"start":393.499,"end":419.852,"text":"那不然的話為什麼不公開招標一定要短購,短購就是溢價嘛。沒有,那個是過去。對不對,過去這個就是有弊端嘛。對,我們現在改了,我來了以後就改了。改了以後就是公開。不是他們去講,我們就配合。那個,部長,因為這短購是溢價,當初啊,我認為說公開招標很低,兩塊兩毛二,但是短購啊,欸,"},{"start":421.328,"end":444.964,"text":"你說要國產化結果現在又沒有辦法做你又幫他開方便之門這個講實在話為什麼台電會虧損連年這個不是沒有原因對不對因為電幾乎到現在你沒有辦法儲存你沒有用的話幾乎都是流掉那流掉結果你看"},{"start":445.845,"end":448.027,"text":"郭部長我相信你應該很清楚"},{"start":470.595,"end":492.308,"text":"我們現在討論的都是第三期的封店,前面剛才所指正的準購大概就是第一期、第二期。但是我們現在是第三期,我們現在三之一、三之二就是回到自由交易的狀況。"},{"start":493.82,"end":512.674,"text":"那因為那三之一在之前就已經開標了那三之二是最近才開的郭部長我跟你講我當初就一直質疑啊這個裡面齁是現在台電董事長叫曾文森由他來主導齁而且你一主導你開放先短夠短夠七成欸欸標20年欸"},{"start":515.296,"end":538.291,"text":"他花多少你一定要吸收多少,難怪臺電會虧損年年啊,對不對?結果剩三成,三成公開招標,兩塊兩毛二。但是啊,你短購價錢那麼高,溢價七成,剩下三成才做什麼?剩下三成才公開招標啊,標20年欸。所以說為什麼臺電現在一直在虧損當中?我認為這個問題很大。"},{"start":543.514,"end":562.393,"text":"我們現在因為需要這個綠電所以我一定要全力讓它能夠如期完工所以我們改變了一些方法希望在這個符合WTO的架構之下然後能夠將這個風電的成本能夠幫助他們降低讓他們產出來的價能夠賣給台灣的業者的時候"},{"start":566.277,"end":566.397,"text":"實在話啦!"},{"start":590.748,"end":614.573,"text":"我是聽不下去啦我認為國會議員就是要幫我們民眾發聲為什麼現在電你看漲了12.5%而且又要行政院編列預算年年來補貼台電這個不是沒有原因因你會合然後會合以後你變成說要綠能綠能又跟不上而且價格又那麼高"},{"start":615.594,"end":619.687,"text":"當然他有一個效應就變成年年要虧損臺電以前有這麼嚴重嗎?"},{"start":622.688,"end":649.181,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下我們也要針對國產化的問題對國內參與這個綠能發電、風機發電的整個國內的業者表示感謝他們也確實承擔了相當多的責任所以我們現在分做三個部分來講第一個部分31的部分我們已經在契約在走已經是照這樣不變了在32的因為他現在先到國際上的訴訟會增加了一些條件或增加了一些要求"},{"start":649.921,"end":650.141,"text":"卓院長"},{"start":674.582,"end":679.885,"text":"因為自2023年到現在政府已經編列給臺電增資2500億元,議後條例撥補500億,再加上在立法院即將要審查2000億的撥補,總計臺電增資以及撥補的累積金額達到5000億。"},{"start":696.455,"end":722.458,"text":"能源政策不檢討臺電虧損最後還是全民買單大家清清楚楚的電價的問題本期支持以核養綠那民進黨政府不要抱著緩和意識形態的神主牌綠能比例沒有達標也不願意以核養綠來拼命的燒煤燃氣還有火力發電等就佔了八成"},{"start":723.779,"end":741.391,"text":"根據臺電給本席的資料2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度是3.62元合能每度是1.39元3.62跟1.39你看落差多大如果2023年臺電合能發電量跟2015年一樣是351億度則天然氣發電則可以少"},{"start":751.758,"end":752.979,"text":"第一根委員報告"},{"start":775.191,"end":787.773,"text":"走向非核家園這個入法是在委員任內之前在通過的這是我們的法律這不是民進黨的神主牌電影法裡面就這樣寫的要朝向非核家園這是法律不是神主牌"},{"start":788.898,"end":813.272,"text":"但是現在我們立法院很多不管在朝在野﹖但是法律現在還是在的﹖這部法律現在還是在的﹖還在﹖對﹖可以改啊﹖可以修啊﹖你們要提出來啊﹖對不對﹖你不能說錯誤的政策﹖現在核電是綠能了﹖在修法﹖是不是修法之前我們現在就是多元的發展綠能﹖希望能夠進行這個科技的儲能﹖"},{"start":814.987,"end":832.321,"text":"對阿 但是科技儲能現在還跟不上阿 對不對 這個是在努力當中阿 現在還跟不上啦 科技的儲能還跟不上啦 這就是我們在二次能源轉型當中重要的目標 你店沒有辦法儲 所以說就流失掉"},{"start":833.081,"end":851.663,"text":"那難怪每年要虧損年年啊,你要是今天能夠儲電,那當然多少,不會那麼嚴重啊。另外剛剛委員所計算算出那個核能發電,即使在目前看成本低,但是在隱藏的核後端,核廢料的處理成本,那個隱性的成本非常非常的大。"},{"start":852.924,"end":853.304,"text":"那個 主委院長"},{"start":873.325,"end":894.196,"text":"媒體報導,英國在9月30日宣布七大工業國組織的先例,成為第一個終止南煤發電的國家,而我們南煤占50%。因應2050年淨零排碳的目標,世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的人員,包括核電在內,國際認可核能為綠電,"},{"start":897.899,"end":915.761,"text":"國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少排碳的放出來。此外美國在20多個國家共同發表《核能宣言》共同努力2050年全球核能容量增加為三倍的目標。"},{"start":918.141,"end":927.386,"text":"每日韓都大舉發展核電,難道民進黨政府的人員政策不需要做通牌性檢討嗎?現在我們優先幫臺灣出口的廠商爭取綠電,因為現在核能還不是屬於綠電,它是一個clean energy,它是一個乾淨的能源。"},{"start":942.847,"end":943.188,"text":"謝謝林委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:12:51 - 11:28:49","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時13分）謝謝。大會主席江副院長，還有卓院長、郭部長。是不是請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：請卓院長跟郭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：你好。卓院長還有郭部長，郭部長，您就任以來兩次出國都剛好落在立法院總質詢期間，今年6月去美國、9月去日本，6月新聞說您在美國當地拜訪美國的美商，鼓勵業者來臺擴大投資。其實我也請助理去了解了一下，在公務出國報告的部分，還沒有看到郭部長6月美國出國的報告。經濟部的聯絡人說郭部長的出國報告是密件，對此，本席也沒有打算索取該密件啦，只是希望經濟部必須端出具體招商成果，不要只有畫大餅。本席查了一下經濟部投審會7月到9月的新聞稿，也沒有看到來自美國的新投資。本席再強調一次，請問部長，何時會有來自美國的新投資呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們大概就是去強化原本在臺灣，就是上個會期有意願來臺灣的這些廠商，包括輝達、包括AMD、包括Micron這些廠商，我去……"],["林委員德福：就是強化而已？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，因為他們會投資很多的錢，我們怕他去投資別人，所以我們要繼續讓他在臺灣、能夠繼續投資臺灣。譬如說，我跟您報告，就美光這個公司來講的話，他下一個投資是300億美元，這是一個非常大的投資。"],["林委員德福：那會不會來投資臺灣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們努力，我們一定要努力，因為他有……"],["林委員德福：努力？還有待努力就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，他有兩個選項，一個是要去馬來西亞，一個是要去印度，因為他的老闆是印度人，所以，我們是希望他留在臺灣。臺灣的優勢要讓他充分的了解，因為臺灣在半導體這個領域裡面有充分的優勢，包括我們的人、我們的整個環境、整個ecosystem，我想他們會選擇臺灣，但是還是因為有一些細枝末節的事情，所以我們是儘量保持讓他能夠滿意、繼續留在臺灣。所以，我跟委員報告……"],["林委員德福：好，希望有一個好的成果。","卓院長，本席是支持綠能發展，風電、太陽光電都贊成，當初民進黨政府推動離岸風電國產化，我這邊念一段經濟部的新聞稿，經濟部說「我國離岸風電基礎設施尚未完備，而且尚未建構國內本土的產業鏈，設置成本相對比較高，故需要明確目標量及躉購電價來吸引國內外業者投入，才能創造經濟規模。」聽到這邊，社會大眾都會把離岸風電躉購費率跟國產化連在一起。當初經濟部說有三招可以把關而且確保風電國產化，包括罰款、砍躉購費率以及解約。到了經濟部郭部長您來經濟部主政，上任以後就替風電業者大開方便之門，只要風電開發商在如期併網完工的前提下，國產化問題不受約束。台電8月的發電成本資料顯示，向民間風力發電業者購電，每度高達6.59元，等於是差不多6.6元，風電業者荷包賺滿滿，政府卻想辦法來替這些風電業者免除罰款、不砍躉購的費率，這難道不是變相圖利嗎？部長有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，風電這個命題是這樣子，就是說我們在過去確實如你指正的有躉售價格，也希望鼓勵國產的廠商，能夠努力的讓它有競爭力。但是在兩個月前，國外的廠商到歐盟、WTO去告我們……"],["林委員德福：舉發，告我們？"],["郭部長智輝：告我們，說我們……"],["林委員德福：那當初為什麼沒有把它設定好呢？對不對？你說要國產化，才會一度6.59元！"],["郭部長智輝：對，那是以前，現在情勢不一樣，因為已經進步到這個階段了，所以外國的廠商發現說，國產化對他們來講，在交易上面他們覺得……"],["林委員德福：不然的話，為什麼不公開招標，一定要躉購？躉購就是議價嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，那個是過去……"],["林委員德福：過去這個就是有弊端嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們現在改了，我來了以後就改了，改了以後就是公開……"],["林委員德福：不是他們去講，我們就配合。部長，因為這個躉購是議價，當初我認為公開招標很低，兩塊兩毛二，但是躉購，你說要國產化，結果現在又沒有辦法做，你又幫他開方便之門，講實在話，為什麼台電會虧損連連？這個不是沒有原因啊！對不對？因為電幾乎到現在都沒有辦法儲存，沒有用的話，幾乎都是流掉。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：結果你看我們冬天有東北季風，你不要用那麼多電，它一直一直轉，發了多少電，你要吸收多少；到了夏天需要大量用電的時候，結果風機不轉了，對不對？這個是在當初沒有考量到，所以現在台電一直在虧損當中，而且越來越嚴重，郭部長，我相信你應該很清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是這樣子，委員，我們現在討論的都是第3期的風電，前面剛才你所指正的躉購那個大概就是第1期、第2期……"],["林委員德福：對，1期、2期啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是我們現在是第3期，我們現在3-1、3-2就是回到自由交易的狀況，因為3-1在之前就已經開標了，那3-2是最近才開的。"],["林委員德福：郭部長，我跟你講，我當初就一直質疑，這個裡面是由現在台電的董事長曾文生來主導，而且你一主導、你開放先躉購七成，標20年，它發多少電，你一定要吸收多少，難怪台電會虧損連連啊！對不對？結果剩三成公開招標是兩塊兩毛二。但是你躉購的價錢那麼高，議價七成，剩下三成才做什麼？剩下三成才公開招標，標20年，所以台電現在一直在虧損當中，我認為這個問題很大。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在因為需要綠電，我一定要全力讓它能夠如期完工，所以我們改變了一些方法，希望在符合WTO的架構之下，能夠幫助他們降低風電的成本，讓他們產出來的價在賣給臺灣業者的時候可以比較便宜一點啦！"],["林委員德福：我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：不要像過去因為國產化導致他們的成本增加，我們現在的目的是幫助國內的廠商能夠降低成本，具有國際的競爭力，這個是我們最重要的一部分。"],["林委員德福：其實當初說要國產化，我以前問過沈榮津前部長，我問過他好幾次，講實在話，我是聽不下去啦！我認為國會議員就是要幫我們民眾發聲，你看！為什麼現在電漲了12.5%，而且又要行政院編列預算年年來補貼台電，這個不是沒有原因的，因為你廢核，廢核以後變成說要綠能，那綠能又跟不上，而且價格又那麼高，當然會有一個效應，就是變成年年要虧損，台電在以前有這麼嚴重嗎？沒有嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一下，我們也要針對國產化的問題，對參與整個綠能發電、風機發電的國內業者表示感謝，他們也確實承擔了相當多的責任，所以我們現在分作三個部分來講，第一個是3-1的部分，我們已經照契約在走，已經是照這樣不變了。至於3-2，因為它現在牽涉到國際上的訴訟，增加了一些條件或增加了一些要求，那國內的業者也希望能夠儘速達到這樣的時程，但是如果因為國內業者接不上來，所以在時程上有延誤的話，我們可以來做一些調整，但我們還是鼓勵國內業者能夠上來。在第3期，我們除了讓大家可以公平交易之外，更希望國內業者往外走，就是剛剛部長講的增加國際競爭力、去國外發展，因為國內的市場到底有限。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，自2023年到現在政府已經編列給台電增資2,500億元，依疫後條例撥補500億，再加上在立法院即將要審查的2,000億撥補，總計台電增資以及撥補的累積金額達到5,000億。能源政策不檢討，台電虧損最後還是全民買單，大家都清清楚楚。對電價的問題，本席支持以核養綠，民進黨政府不要抱著反核意識形態的神主牌，綠能比例沒有達標，也不願意以核養綠，而拼命的燒煤，燃氣還有火力發電等就占了八成。根據台電給本席的資料，2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度是3.62元，核能每度是1.39元，3.62跟1.39，你看落差多大！如果2023年台電核能發電量跟2015年一樣是351億度，天然氣發電則可以少用一些，粗估每年可以少虧損400億，這邊再打個折，保守估計4年下來最少可以少虧損1,200億。如今電價又要上漲，人民卻要為政府錯誤的能源政策買單，人民怎麼會不生氣呢？卓院長，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，跟委員報告，走向非核家園，這個入法是在委員任內、之前通過的，這是我們的法律，這不是民進黨的神主牌，電業法裡面就是這樣寫的，要朝向非核家園，這是法律，不是神主牌。第二個，剛剛……"],["林委員德福：但是現在我們立法院很多，不管在朝在野……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是法律現在還是在的，這部法律現在還是在的。"],["林委員德福：還在？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["林委員德福：那可以改、可以修啊！你沒有提出來啊，對不對？你不能說錯誤的政策，現在核電是綠能了……"],["卓院長榮泰：在修法之前，我們現在就是多元的發展綠能，希望能夠進行科技的儲能，再來就是能夠朝向……"],["林委員德福：對啊，但是科技儲能現在還跟不上，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個正在努力當中。"],["林委員德福：郭部長，我相信你很清楚，現在還跟不上啦，科技的儲能還跟不上啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是我們在二次能源轉型當中重要的目標。"],["林委員德福：你的電沒有辦法儲，所以就流失掉，難怪每一年要虧損連連啊！你要是今天能夠儲電，那當然多少不會那麼嚴重啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：另外，剛剛委員所算出那個核能發電，即使它……"],["林委員德福：1.39元啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：即使目前成本低，但是在隱藏的核後端，它的核廢料處理成本，那個隱性的成本非常非常的大。"],["林委員德福：其實到目前為止，全世界任何國家，甚至於先進國家，他們都在發展核能，日本福島核災以後，它還是一樣，還是在發展核能啊！為什麼人家可以，我們不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果新的核能技術沒有安全的顧慮、沒有核廢料的處理，我們絕對願意積極來討論。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，根據媒體報導，英國在9月30號宣布七大工業國組織的先例，成為第一個終止燃煤發電的國家，我們燃煤是占50%，因應2050年淨零碳排的目標，世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的能源，包括核電在內。國際認可核能為綠電，國際能源總署強調，世界需要核電來減少碳排放。此外，美國和二十多個國家共同發表核能宣言，共同努力於2050年全球核能容量增加為3倍的目標。美、日、韓都大舉發展核電，難道民進黨政府的能源政策不需要做通盤性的檢討嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們目前就是優先幫臺灣出口的廠商爭取綠電，因為現在核能還不是屬於綠電，它是一個clean energy，它是一個乾淨的能源，我們現在先滿足這個綠電的需求，然後再來就趕快來滿足2050年的零碳。"],["林委員德福：我是認為以核養綠啦！你們不要……"],["郭部長智輝：兩個都是不同時間的重點。"],["林委員德福：不要一意孤行啦！以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}