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海鮮淹水市區必定會淹大水,排水系統做得好,絕對是防災的第一基礎。"},{"start":146.522,"end":156.601,"text":"那尤其我們10月2號、3號、4號經歷了山陀台風的一個嚴重的肆虐那我想南山節水溝第三期工程"},{"start":158.1,"end":180.05,"text":"在上游部分要開闢北四溪及竹林北溪段,整治的長度2.9公里,那出估經費需要達65億,那現在剛好是汛期,每年的5月到11月這7個月的時間是臺灣雨量最豐沛的時候,加上梅雨台風季節,所以"},{"start":180.934,"end":193,"text":"本期在這邊要請教院長,針對這個第三期工程65億,包括土地、土增費還有這個這個地上物的補償費就高達近30億,所以要請"},{"start":194.315,"end":220.558,"text":"院長是不是能夠協助用特別補助款來協助請水利組這邊也多分攤一些經費首先謝謝委員剛剛說明在去年完成的第1、2期已經有效改善降低了淹水的風險那第三期現在工程還在進行延長當中但是裡面遭受到一些阻力跟障礙這個部長非常清楚我請部長來說什麼阻力報告委員"},{"start":221.058,"end":241.477,"text":"第三期的工程,因為山坡地是比較高層的因素,所以需要深挖。 要設計用鄉衡的方式,剛好經過民房的下方,所以遭到地方強烈抗議。"},{"start":243.302,"end":272.223,"text":"我們已經請這個臺中市政府持續的評估執行效益或者替代方案或者替代方案所以現在應該不是委員你指教的這個預算的問題而是那個通過的問題不是這個路線已經經過無數次的討論那現在就是說我們上游是在薩路地區從這個清泉崗機場一直銜接到這個中火所以這個部分"},{"start":272.802,"end":291.33,"text":"需要經過的沿線這些居民我們也經過多次的協商還有這個公開這個說明會公聽會等等那現在居民反倒是我們現在我們的市民認為說如果第三期工程沒有加速進行未來遭受到了這樣子的一個這個天災或者是強降雨"},{"start":291.69,"end":296.732,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":309.138,"end":310.179,"text":"經濟部將持續跟台中市政府"},{"start":327.99,"end":328.11,"text":"主席"},{"start":344.007,"end":345.809,"text":"應該不是預算的問題,而是那個路線的問題,要不要改。"},{"start":370.025,"end":372.587,"text":"現在就是市政府不敢提 為什麼 因為這是預算的問題"},{"start":397.796,"end":397.916,"text":"主席"},{"start":418.038,"end":436.811,"text":"主要的這個南山解鎖溝把它完成,請院長在這邊答應我好不好。那布裡面也要看地方提出來的計畫是不完整需求是不是急迫,那是不是要積極來處理,一定要這個計畫我們才能再做,不是說這裡答應就可以做的。如果說這個地方的需求強烈而急迫,而且"},{"start":437.551,"end":437.631,"text":"主席"},{"start":455.72,"end":474.995,"text":"這些預算都往南部或者是其他受創地方,那我們中部地區是望梅止渴,我們希望說真的要做預先的防範更加重要,我們不是在比較,我們只是希望說你把原來的預先的這些治水防範把它做好,那它未來就可能免於遭受到這樣的一個危害。"},{"start":475.595,"end":494.174,"text":"所以在這邊提出說那這樣子預算對我們行政院來講不是一個太大的困難所以我們明年編了551億 裡面很多是系統性的治水的工程當然啦當然啦因為我們區域內有很多的系統治水都要做 通過之後我們就能照計畫的優先順序跟它的緊迫性我們就逐一來編"},{"start":494.898,"end":523.19,"text":"跟委包絕對沒有地域的分別也不會特別照顧哪些地方全國都是一樣的所以我們這是為我們臺中市民請命因為整個臺中市的一個出來口那如果說造成日後我們是為這個防範於未來不希望它發生一個重大的危害我們目的是一樣的那我想再請教院長部長你們有沒有聽過北風與太陽的故事一手一眼"},{"start":524.733,"end":550.267,"text":"是穿外套的事情小學三年級的國語課本裡面寫的故事的內容就是說北風跟太陽他們兩個就是說要進行一場比賽決定誰的能力比較強那北風就開始對這些路上的行人就是他們的比賽就是說要把行人的外套大衣把它吹掉把它拿掉但是北風他就用他強勁的這個北風來"},{"start":554.05,"end":577.446,"text":"他越用力吹但是路上的行人就是把衣服越拉得更緊因為越冷就穿得更緊但是反觀太陽他用他溫暖的陽光照射在人民的身上那陽光越是越強烈他會覺得炎熱反倒是這樣子他把外套給脫掉那這個故事就是說要告訴我們就是說與其全力的控制對方不如"},{"start":578.266,"end":581.668,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":595.155,"end":621.78,"text":"吉利的去排斥同樣是綠電的核能發電本席認為這兩個故事很像越加的干預就會造成更多的問題那我想經濟部長、部長、郭部長你也提過就是說核能是乾淨的能源那世界各國也公認核電是綠電那台灣缺電是不爭的事實尤其缺綠電對不對剛剛你也提到台灣缺的是綠電"},{"start":623.842,"end":651.15,"text":"那所以本期今天要跟院長跟部長來討論就是說我們離岸風電目前的問題台灣的西就是台灣海峽台灣海峽是一個非常好的風場但是離岸風電卻改變了整個漁場那請教院長你知道全台灣最大的離岸風機基地在哪裡嗎離岸風機在彰化台中對台中還是彰化"},{"start":653.53,"end":674.495,"text":"我想沿海地區髒冰,這個都很難。 風場是在髒化,沒有錯,台中髒化,但是這個風機的基地是在台中港。所以報告委員,我們發展綠能,北風和太陽都需要,風吹動這個風機,太陽照亮這個電板,所以都需要。 對嘛,所以我們什麼電都要,尤其是綠電,對不對。"},{"start":675.535,"end":689.444,"text":"我跟這個委員報告一下就是現在要求綠電最大是美國的這個MicrosoftMicrosoft他不同意這個核電是綠電他只認為他是一個乾淨的能源"},{"start":690.547,"end":714.26,"text":"所以我們現在因為出口很多的這個公司啊,它是給Microsoft的這個市場。那一樣的道理,以現在台灣的綠電是不是2025、2026都已經被台積電買掉了?對不對?其他的護國大山也買不到這樣子的綠電嗎?我們現在跟委員報告,我們現在就是趕快讓這個太陽能光電跟風力還有小水綠發電,讓它趕快上來。"},{"start":716.241,"end":743.996,"text":"上來的時候我們希望到2030年能夠滿足這個30%是綠電這樣子的一個市場需求所以我認為這個目前我們先把這個綠電的這個問題先解決然後馬上解決這個碳因為2050年也迫在眉睫所以我們要解決這個零碳所以剛才您所指導的這個我們都會放在這個思考的這個範疇之內"},{"start":745.357,"end":769.022,"text":"部長媒體報導就是說9月23號約見這個開發商那釋出只要如期並往國產化可鬆綁的訊息那被業者稱為923之亂那部長在9月11號回應這個國產化限制已經8年差不多了那會朝開放的方向來進行所以現在這些"},{"start":770.688,"end":793.639,"text":"尤其是CIP總裁他說臺灣GDP是被許多護國大山傳產資產產業撐起都需要大宋綠電但是2025、2026的綠電都賣給了台積電臺灣不缺電但缺綠電那更媒體也說風電國產化還能走下去嗎那針對這一些批評跟這一些"},{"start":796.223,"end":818.254,"text":"我想請教他們都致函給經濟部陳情認為說這個朔旗既往的變更違反信賴保護原則那我現在給你時間不多啦那可不可以稍微講一下解釋一下部長是報告委員這個信賴保護原則就是政府一貫這個施政的這個基本原則不是我不是要問這個我要問說你要如何去因應後續"},{"start":819.969,"end":837.871,"text":"因為我現在的目的是這樣子就是說我到2028年是不會缺綠電的所以過去delay的這個風電我要讓他speed up讓他快速起來所以我們現在是幫助這個國產的公司告訴他們你有沒有什麼"},{"start":838.832,"end":866.846,"text":"需要經濟部協助的讓他可以成本降低的那麼可以這個滿足這些開發商在這個時間裡面能夠同時能夠這個這個掛網所以我想這個剛開始這個三之一的這些廠商他們擔心說啊這個國產化取消沒有取消他我們是幫助他們能夠降低成本我們希望讓風電的成本能夠繼續往下向"},{"start":868.387,"end":868.467,"text":"主席"},{"start":884.893,"end":887.435,"text":"三、11我們就是維持什麼樣的規範什麼樣的契約就是按照契約照走"},{"start":914.488,"end":939.297,"text":"三之一就這樣,三之二通案還是按照規範,那如果他有需要我們協助的,我們來幫助他,來解決他的問題。我們並沒有說這個地方開放國產化,因為只有三之三我們講說這個會朝國產化開放的這個方向。 時間不夠,這邊要強調了齁,要強調就是最重要的一點,公開透明。"},{"start":954.679,"end":954.699,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:28:59 - 11:44:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時29分）立法院江副院長大會主席、各位列席官員。主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長好。卓院長，現在因為極端氣候的影響，不只是颱風，包括我們全臺各地經常性的突發性豪雨，瞬間雨量都會造成淹水釀災，尤其是本席的選區在臺中海線，旁邊緊鄰的就是臺中盆地的大肚山臺地，如果剛好遇到海水漲潮，淹水造成的災損通常都非常嚴重，不能每一次都期待中央山脈來守護臺灣。今天的質詢，我要跟院長就教臺中南山截水溝計畫第三期的可能性，希望院長能夠支持。","本席在這邊要先感謝中央及市府過去共同的努力，讓南山截水溝一期、二期能夠順利完工。大肚山西麓沿著海線地區因為地勢低窪排水不易，過去曾經嚴重淹水，在中央跟地方政府的通力合作下，一期、二期的工程總長度6.5公里，經費分別是26億跟24億，現今主要河道已經完成，中央補助的部分，第一期補助21億，第二期補助14億。但是工程不能虎頭蛇尾，因為南山截水溝的完整性足以影響整個臺中市中部地區的出海口，海線淹水，市區必定會淹大水，排水系統做得好，絕對是防災第一基礎。尤其10月2號、3號、4號經歷了山陀兒颱風的嚴重肆虐，我想南山截水溝第三期工程在上游部分要開闢北勢溪及竹林北溪段，整治長度2.9公里，初估經費需要達65億。現在剛好是汛期，每年5月到11月這7個月的時間是臺灣雨量最豐沛的時候，加上梅雨、颱風季節。本席在這邊要請教院長，針對第三期工程，65億包括土地徵收費還有地上物補償費就高達近30億，所以要請院長是不是能夠協助用特別補助款來協助，請水利署這邊也多分攤一些經費？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：首先謝謝委員剛剛說明，在去年完成的第一、二期已經有效改善降低了淹水的風險，第三期工程現在還在進行研商當中，但是裡面遭受到一些阻力跟障礙，這個部長非常清楚，我請部長來說明。"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼阻力，可不可以說明？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，第三期工程因為山坡地比較高的因素，所以需要深挖，要設計用箱涵的方式，剛好經過民房的下方，所以遭到地方強烈抗議。我們已經請臺中市政府持續評估執行效益或者替代方案，所以現在應該不是委員所指教的預算問題，而是通過的問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，這個路線已經經過無數次的討論，現在就是上游在沙鹿地區，從清泉崗機場一直銜接到中火，針對這個部分需要經過的沿線居民，我們也經過多次協商，還有說明會、公聽會等等，現在反倒是我們市民認為如果第三期工程沒有加速進行，未來遭受到天災或者是強降雨，可能會造成整個海線地區的大淹水，所以這個部分剛好跟部長提到的、跟院長講的有點相反，現在是居民很積極地在等候中央伸出援手，因為對臺中市來講，這個預算的規模臺中市沒有辦法負擔，現在確實是遭受到很大的困難，希望中央尤其院長你們能夠伸出援手，協助臺中把海線治水防洪最重要的南山截水溝完成。院長，你願不願意？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，經濟部將持續跟臺中市政府討論怎麼樣合作，那麼下一個階段的治水計畫，因為您剛才所講的急迫性這麼高，所以我們會按照優先順序趕快……"],["顏委員寬恒：所謂優先順序，這個是排列在第幾名？你可不可以告訴我？整個出海口……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們會跟臺中市政府來談怎麼樣進行，就像您剛才講的……"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講整個大肚山西麓所有的出海口要防止山洪氾濫都要倚靠南山截水溝。"],["郭部長智輝：現在應該不是……"],["顏委員寬恒：現在一期、二期完成了……"],["郭部長智輝：應該不是預算的問題，而是那個路線的問題，要不要改。"],["顏委員寬恒：我是在地人，我最清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：所以就是臺中市政府OK之後，都沒問題我們就照做。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，無論是一般的公共建設或是對地方的計畫型補助，地方政府都要積極的提出需求跟整個規劃，才能報到院裡面來，由部來做進一步的審核，所以地方政府一定要積極負起這樣的責任。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在就是市政府不敢提，為什麼？因為這是預算的問題，老實講沒有中央的協助，以他一己之力確實是沒有辦法完成的，所以說市政府告訴我們，希望我們在中央能夠協助，我們跟江副院長和中部地區的各位立委也都全力要求，希望院長願意用特別補助款來協助臺中市，把防洪治水的主要河道──南山截水溝完成，請院長在這邊答應我，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：部裡面也要看地方提出來的計畫是不是完整、需求是不是急迫，是不是要積極來處理，一定有這個計畫，我們才能做，不是說這裡答應就不用做了。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長，你就答應要全力協助，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果說這個地方的需求強烈而急迫，而且……"],["顏委員寬恒：受害的是全民、是市民。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且這個計畫能夠跟中央做很妥善、合理的溝通，我們讓它形成一個可行的計畫，站在為地方、中央合力的情況下，我們當然願意考量。"],["顏委員寬恒：每次風災過後，我們總是看見政府把大筆的救助預算送往南部或其他受創的地方……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會這樣。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們中部地區只能望梅止渴，我們認為預先的防範更加重要，我們不是在比較，我們只是希望你把預先的治水防洪做好，未來就可能免於遭受到這樣的危害，所以在這邊提出，這樣的預算對行政院來講不是一個太大的困難。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們明年編了551億，裡面很多是系統性的治水工程預算。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然、當然，因為我們區域內很多系統治水工作……"],["卓院長榮泰：通過之後，我們就能照計畫的優先順序跟它的緊迫性逐一來編。跟委員報告，絕對沒有地域的分別，也不會特別照顧哪些地方，全國都是一樣的。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，所以我這是為我們臺中市民請命，因為整個臺中市的出海口，我們是希望防範於未然，不希望它發生重大的危害。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們目的是一樣的。"],["顏委員寬恒：對、對、對。我想再請教院長、部長，你們有沒有聽過伊索寓言裡面北風與太陽的故事？"],["卓院長榮泰：是穿外套的事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：小學三年級國語課本裡面寫的。"],["顏委員寬恒：故事的內容就是，北風跟太陽他們兩個說要進行一場比賽，決定誰的能力比較強，看誰能把行人的大衣拿掉，那北風就開始使用他強勁的北風，但是北風越用力吹，路上的行人越是把衣服拉得更緊，因為越冷衣服就穿得越緊；反觀太陽，它用它溫暖的陽光照射在路人身上，陽光越是強烈，路人越覺得炎熱，反倒是這樣，路人就把外套給脫掉了。這個故事就是告訴我們，與其全力的控制對方，不如放手讓對方心悅誠服，讓他心服口服。現在錯誤的政策就像北風跟太陽一樣，你過度的吹捧太陽能光電、風電，極力的去排斥同樣是綠電的核能發電，本席認為這兩個故事很像，越加干預就會造成更多的問題。我想經濟部郭部長也提過，核能是乾淨的能源，世界各國也公認核電是綠電，現在臺灣缺電是不爭的事實，尤其缺綠電，對不對？剛剛你也提到臺灣缺的是綠電，所以本席今天要跟院長、部長討論我們離岸風電目前的問題，臺灣海峽是一個非常好的風場，但是離岸風電卻改變了整個漁場，請教院長，你知道全臺灣最大的離岸風機基地在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：離岸風機在彰化、臺中。"],["顏委員寬恒：臺中還是彰化？"],["卓院長榮泰：像沿海地區彰濱，這個都很……"],["顏委員寬恒：風場是在彰化。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有錯，臺中、彰化，但這個風機的基地是在臺中港。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以報告委員，我們要發展綠能，北風跟太陽都需要。"],["顏委員寬恒：都需要嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：風吹動風機，太陽照亮電板，所以都需要。"],["顏委員寬恒：對嘛！所以我們什麼電都要。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：尤其是綠電，對不對？那核電也是綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，現在要求綠電最大的是美國的Microsoft，Microsoft不同意核電是綠電，只認為它是一個乾淨的能源。我們現在因為出口的很多公司是給Microsoft這個市場……"],["顏委員寬恒：那一樣的道理，現在臺灣的綠電……"],["郭部長智輝：對於這一點，我們現在全力在發展綠電。"],["顏委員寬恒：是不是2025、2026都已經被台積電買掉了？其他的護國大山也買不到綠電，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我們現在就是趕快讓太陽能、光電跟風力，還有小水力發電，讓它趕快上來，上來的時候，我們希望到2030年能夠滿足30%是綠電這樣子的市場需求。所以我認為目前我們先把綠電的這個問題解決，然後馬上解決碳部分，因為2050年也迫在眉睫，我們要解決零碳部分。因此，剛才您所指導的，我們都會放在思考的範疇之內。"],["顏委員寬恒：媒體報導，9月23日約見開發商，釋出只要如期併網，國產化可鬆綁的訊息，被業者稱為「923之亂」。部長在9月11日回應，提到國產化限制已經8年，差不多了，會朝開放的方向進行。所以現在這些廠，尤其CIP總裁說臺灣GDP是被許多護國大山、傳產、資通產業撐起，都需要大宗綠電，但是2025、2026的綠電都賣給了台積電，臺灣不缺電，但缺綠電。媒體也說風電國產化還能走下去嗎？針對這一些批評，我想請教，他們都致函經濟部陳情，認為這個溯及既往的變更違反信賴保護原則，現在時間不多，可不可以稍微講一下、解釋一下？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，這個信賴保護原則就是政府一貫的施政基本原則，所以……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我不是要問這個，我要問你要如何因應後續？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我現在的目的是這樣子，就是我到2028年是不會缺綠電，過去delay的風電，我要讓它speed up，讓它快速起來，所以我們現在是幫助國產公司，告訴他們有沒有什麼需要經濟部協助的，讓他降低成本的，那麼可以滿足這些開發商，在這個時間裡面同時能夠掛網。我想剛開始3-1期的這些廠商擔心國產化取消，沒有取消，我們是幫助他們能夠降低成本，我們希望讓風電的成本繼續往下降，不要說風電的這麼高。其他開發商說這樣可能投資者不願意，我們沒有那個意思，我們是幫助國產化的公司，讓它具有世界競爭力。"],["顏委員寬恒：你片面輕易地鬆綁已經公告的政策，對於相信政府而陸續投入數十億、上百億的這些國內廠商，情何以堪！那是不是……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們現在沒有說取消喔！我們現在是……"],["顏委員寬恒：他質疑8年前的離岸風電這個政策是否不再延續。"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以要你說清楚的是這個部分。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我在這裡跟你報告，3-1我們就是維持，什麼樣的規範、什麼樣的契約，就是按照契約照走，3-1就這樣；3-2通案，還是按照規範，那如果他有需要我們協助的，我們幫助他來解決他的問題。我們並沒有說這個地方開放國產化而調整，只有3-3我們講這個會朝國產化開放的方向來努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，時間不夠，我這邊要強調，最重要的一點就是公開透明，全民檢視。因為時間，就是這樣子了，沒有時間繼續問，我想就是不管怎麼樣，要說清楚，讓綠能在開發階段不要有什麼重大的案件、重大的不法發生。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員。剛剛顏委員提到關於臺中市南山截水溝的這個部分，他的意思應該是臺中市政府一定會提出計畫，到時候請行政院能夠優先協助。謝謝顏委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是臺北市東山高中的同學，我們在此歡迎你們的到訪，謝謝。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行經濟組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時45分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}