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著急,所以但是,要把那個大家想辦法要有共識的點,對起碼要大家可以聚焦來談嘛,但是現在好像沒有辦法,所以我才請教您說,院長。充分了解雙方的立場,雖然我知道很多先進委員講過好幾次,我也在這個地方表達過很多次原則性的問題,"},{"start":204.787,"end":212.611,"text":"但是能夠這樣子面對面的﹐沒有時間的限制﹐在比較輕鬆的狀況之下來交談﹐非常寶貴的經驗﹐我想從這個經驗就可以繼續往下發展﹐但是重點還是要預算﹐要有機會﹐但不是說要復違﹐因為是你們急著要審預算﹐委員您不急嗎﹐"},{"start":226.374,"end":229.055,"text":"國民黨團有授權給總召跟書記長在某一些程度底下大家是可以溝通的所以我剛才才請教院長"},{"start":252.06,"end":271.839,"text":"因為可能請總統出來,因為我不認為進法補償條例,大家再多編列一點,或者用其他追加緊預算,怎麼樣處理,大家不能夠解決。我覺得這都不是很大一筆什麼樣的數字。所以說我覺得大家就那些問題,其實不是說不能抽腿,我們在預算,在議會,你也當過市議員,你也當過立法會,"},{"start":275.583,"end":290.875,"text":"我覺得不是說零和遊戲,就是有辦法可以去溝通,但是如果每一個人都硬幫幫那一塊的話,這個走不下去。所以我剛剛才問你說,我覺得如果去吃這場餐會,你沒有一些籌碼,你沒有一些授權,"},{"start":292.677,"end":292.837,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":319.346,"end":324.067,"text":"我原因多慮了。 我跟總統報告過我跟韓院長相約這件事情﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖�"},{"start":347.791,"end":349.494,"text":"有談,院長我要提醒你啦,有談要有結果,因為大家要看的是一個結果論。 我不認為在野黨都是硬梆梆的一塊,我們也了解…… 我也不是硬梆梆的一塊。"},{"start":362.895,"end":366.777,"text":"我希望有好的結果,但是我不希望這個院長你被卡在上不上下不下,又沒有被總統授權,然後他又不願意幫你開院紀協調,然後你又沒有任何籌碼。"},{"start":386.57,"end":389.433,"text":"但是無論如何快樂的人看到希望,憂慮多的人會看到遺憾。"},{"start":407.178,"end":429.645,"text":"我當然希望看到院長,因為你不是一個不能溝通的院長,但是我希望提出來的方向是可以解決的方案,大家可以走得下去。因為今天是經濟委員會的質詢,我還是要請問一下有關於我們的能源政策的問題。能源政策對國家來說實在太重要了。"},{"start":430.345,"end":450.104,"text":"院長你看到包括在今年6月5號的時候當時國部長提到未來可以在上個會期對於能源配比的調整有一定的目標跟方向。 經濟部能源署也說未來10年每一年至少成長率用電的需求會成長2.8%到3%。"},{"start":452.346,"end":452.967,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":469.059,"end":493.973,"text":"媒體也在講,包括我今天早上也有看到部長也回答柯正委員說,如果對於台電的補貼到位,但是我們仍舊在漲電,電價還是不斷的漲,就是你離開的時候。部長我先請教你,你講這句話,呃,代表你覺得這個位置坐起來你是有點倦情嗎?還是很委屈?我早上已經請部長不讓再講這種話了。"},{"start":497.138,"end":498.527,"text":"院長 我再請教部長"},{"start":501.644,"end":529.096,"text":"部長你直接回答,你不要去管院長講什麼,其實我覺得這件事情其實就是在你整個在很多議題的想法,特別在能源政策上,您來自民間企業產業界,我相信總統看到您的在產業界的能力找您進來,所以做該做的事,說該說的話,所以第一時間您提到說臺電未來不再撥補,要想辦法自己賺錢自負盈虧,這個是一個產業界的說法。"},{"start":530.296,"end":551.207,"text":"我來跟委員報告,我的意思是說這2000億的撥補主要是調整臺電的財務情況。那麼在未來的電價的決定,漲不漲當然不是我來決定,漲不漲價是由電價委員會來決定的。但是我必須要創造一個,是電價審議委員會決定的。"},{"start":556.51,"end":557.291,"text":"從能源政策開始"},{"start":572.598,"end":599.583,"text":"媒體在批評說如果經濟不窮的只剩下漲價跟補助這兩件事情而沒有去思考到整個上層發電結構是不是合理因為電價成本跟我們能源政策的配比很重要燃氣很貴但你現在民進黨要非核家園然後火力發電又在燒廢用愛發電用廢發電所以我們能源配比的政策到底要不要調整你有沒有想法"},{"start":601.982,"end":617.096,"text":"我們的能源政策當然我們現在 能源配比 能源配比 蔡英文有50%、30%、20%賴政府在你底下 你的能源政策 院長你有沒有想法 有沒有 還是蔡規賴誰"},{"start":624.938,"end":648.223,"text":"能源政策是國家長遠既定的,現在也在推動的政策。每位總統都有他的看法,但是對已經在進行中的政策,我們首先是希望能夠繼續的走下去。我們並沒有否定現在的任何能源政策,而且我們認為發展綠能,"},{"start":649.923,"end":653.644,"text":"我們現在新的這個能源的配比是延續這個蔡總統的能源政策然後我們稍微做一個修正我們現在先把煤"},{"start":674.206,"end":674.466,"text":"我跟委員報告這個他"},{"start":703.407,"end":712.999,"text":"本來是2025年可以達到20%但是因為這個俄烏戰爭的原因所以讓它是要delay那我們會在2026年的11月達成這個標但是我的目標還是在2030年"},{"start":720.848,"end":737.357,"text":"二〇三〇年的時候,我們讓綠電能夠滿足臺灣的氣味能夠的需求。我現在看到你所有的用電規劃都是到二〇三〇年,你曾經也是說目前所有的布局都是到二〇三〇年,院長卓院長,"},{"start":740.226,"end":763.777,"text":"賴總統應該有想要爭取下一屆連任,下一屆連任2028也是,下一屆總統是2028做到2032嘛,所以我就覺得很奇怪,能源政策、能源配比、供電、國際產業要留住AI產業這些大公司,你絕對不是說我的佈局到2030年就夠了,這個對國家經濟政策來說是重要的,不論是下一屆總統是誰,繼續是賴總統或者是其他人,"},{"start":767.139,"end":793.511,"text":"我覺得用電都不會是布局到2030所以絕對不是2030之後不干我的事蔡英文可以這麼說但是我相信賴總統跟左院長您不會這麼說所以這個布局的說法是很奇怪的我最近看到包括Google在馬來西亞也設置花了20億設置場然後台積電也到美國花了650億美金也設置場就是說我覺得一個成熟的產業"},{"start":794.671,"end":811.807,"text":"他要看的是10年20年30年他把公司花上百億投資在這個地方他是有長遠性的所以你們講2030年布局到2030年這件事情是外界完全沒有辦法接受的所以你身為一個產業界來的部長你講布局到2030年"},{"start":813.396,"end":821.699,"text":"我覺得這件事情是讓外界、產業界想說臺灣的經濟部長怎麼會這樣?主席你能接受這樣的說法嗎?我們現在佈局直到2030年嗎?美國商會跟澳洲商會可以接受你這樣的說法嗎?我們是在講綠電。"},{"start":835.785,"end":846.968,"text":"二零三零年所以我們才用二零三年是一個目標二零五零年也是一個目標所以我們是分段設置目標在領域的二零三零年之後"},{"start":853.67,"end":881.282,"text":"你們現在都只保證2030年之前都不缺電,至少2030年。2030年之後的電怎麼樣拿出來給大家看,說服產業界,說服台灣的國際產業。我們都有計畫,因為蓋一個電廠要6年。好,那我繼續再問,蓋一個電廠要6年。好,那我就要問院長,因為我剩下51秒,我時間真的剩下不多。院長,很多事情要做最壞的打算,但是也要做最好的準備。"},{"start":882.382,"end":886.104,"text":"我了解委員的想法。我了解。我跟委員報告兩件事情。"},{"start":905.271,"end":905.451,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":942.022,"end":942.415,"text":"謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:29 - 14:46:12","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（14時30分）謝謝院長，我可不可以請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長好。我剛剛看你緩慢的走進來，步態蹣跚的樣子，我還是要跟你講，無論是韓院長，或者是你，或者三黨的黨團總召都辛苦了。剛剛中午的朝野和解飯，吃的結果是在你的預料當中嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我剛剛沒有步履蹣跚，我還是非常輕快地走進來。"],["李委員彥秀：好，輕快地走進來，那這個結果是您預料當中的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，這是一個營養午餐，大家在那邊……"],["李委員彥秀：那結果呢？全臺灣的民眾要看的是結果，結果呢？沒有共識？"],["卓院長榮泰：結果就是我們從一個好的方向開始，然後走向另外一個新啟動……希望能夠啟動新的一個朝野協商的過程。"],["李委員彥秀：有共識的地方在哪裡？我從媒體上看到之後，我還沒有機會問韓院長，我也沒機會問我們總召。"],["卓院長榮泰：共識是大家已經多增加對彼此了解之後，繼續從協商中得到對整個解決方案更多的想法。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我相信你從政的資歷這麼久，你不會不清楚，協商就是大家有機會達成某一些共識跟結果，可能協商結果不是每一個人都滿意，但是最起碼可以讓我們現在政治的僵局、預算沒辦法付委的僵局，有機會達到某一些共識可以往下走。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我剛剛從媒體上看到，目前好像沒有一個這樣往下走的可能，至少從剛才媒體上我看到的解讀是這樣子，所以我要請教院長接下來怎麼辦？你難道還要拜託院長再排一次餐會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不用再餐會，只要能夠進行協商……"],["李委員彥秀：或者是我今天早上從媒體上看到，院際協調的部分，賴總統好像不願意召開，或者是請求另外一方，你再拜託賴總統來開院際協調，有沒有這個可能性？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統有憲法賦予總統的權限，他自然會去處理……"],["李委員彥秀：他當然可以開院際協調嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：但我認為本件在大院跟行政院之間就總預算的問題，我跟韓院長之間來拜託三個黨團繼續往一個大家都能夠理解的方向……"],["李委員彥秀：怎麼繼續？我剛剛看的結果，這個餐會是破局，大家沒有共識，我們都希望預算趕快付委……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你在議會、在立法院很久，沒有一件事情是剛剛才談過現在馬上有結果。"],["李委員彥秀：對啊！但是你們很急嘛！我現在也在替你著急嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不急嗎？大家都很急啊！你不急嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：但是那個大家想辦法要有共識的點，最起碼要大家可以聚焦來談嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是現在好像沒有，所以我才請教您說，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛已經充分了解雙方的立場，雖然我知道很多先進、委員也講過好幾次，我也在這個地方表達過很多次原則性的問題，但是能夠這樣面對面的、沒有時間的限制，在比較輕鬆的狀況之下來交談，變成是一個非常寶貴的經驗……"],["李委員彥秀：所以要繼續開就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想從這個經驗就可以繼續往下發展。"],["李委員彥秀：但是重點還是預算要有機會付委，有共識之後預算要付委，因為是你們急著要審預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員你不急嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：我當然也覺得預算審好很重要，但是前提是……因為行政院現在違法編列在先……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！就不要說我們急，國人更急、國家更急。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我不知道賴總統有沒有跟你討論這件事情，我覺得要有共識也不困難，國民黨團有授權給總召跟書記長，在某一些程度底下大家是可以溝通的，所以我剛才才請教院長，你有沒有可能請總統出來？因為我不認為禁伐補償條例再多編列一點或者用其他追加減預算怎麼樣處理，大家不能夠解決，我覺得這都不是很大一筆什麼樣的數字，所以我覺得大家就這些問題，其實不是不能抽退，我們在預算、在議會，你擔任過市議員，也擔任過立法委員，我覺得不是說零和遊戲，就是有辦法可以去溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但是如果每一個人都硬邦邦一塊的話，那就走不下去了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，就是這個態度……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我剛剛才問你，我覺得如果去吃這場餐會，你沒有一些籌碼，你沒有一些授權，我覺得就很難談得下去。但我也會覺得院長你做得很辛苦、很可憐，因為如果你沒有被授權，總統又不給你院際調節的可能性，你又完全不能退或用後面追加減預算再去做補償措施的話，這個預算怎麼走得下去？這個是我覺得院長很辛苦的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您多慮了，我跟總統報告過我跟韓院長相約、跟黨團見面這件事情，總統也在各方得到這樣的訊息，他跟我的講法……"],["李委員彥秀：他願意院際協調？"],["卓院長榮泰：他對我的講法，就誠如昨天總統在國慶大會上的講法一樣，他很高興看到韓院長跟我能夠對朝野和解的方式、協商的過程繼續去做努力，他很高興看到這一點，這就是總統唯一而且是最重要的態度，我們就在這個態度底下……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我要提醒你，有談要有結果，因為大家要看的是一個結果，我不認為在野黨都是硬梆梆的一塊，我們也了解行政院的困難度……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不是硬梆梆的一塊。"],["李委員彥秀：對，所以我本來以為有機會至少達到一點共識……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以不要在這一刻就急著要我說出什麼話來，因為剛剛跟韓院長講了很多話，我們還要再做很多的努力。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我尊重，我希望有好的結果。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我不希望院長被卡在上不上、下不下的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！"],["李委員彥秀：又沒有被總統授權，他又不願意幫你開院際協調，然後你又沒有任何籌碼可以來跟在野黨……對不起，我不能說籌碼，我應該說在預算上後面違法編列的部分要怎麼樣做補救措施，如果你沒有任何後續可以處理，你出來談就等於是白談，這是我要提醒你的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是無論如何，快樂的人看到希望，憂慮多的人會看到遺憾。"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有憂慮，我當然希望看到院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，那我們就快樂的往前走。"],["李委員彥秀：因為你不是一個不能溝通的院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就和韓院長快樂的往前走。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我希望提出來的方向是可以解決的方案，大家可以走得下去。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望是，大家都希望是。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，因為今天是經濟委員會的質詢，我還是要請問有關於能源政策的問題。能源政策對國家來說實在是太重要了，院長，你看到包括在今年6月5日的時候，就是在上個會期，當時郭部長提到未來對於能源配比的調整，他有一定的目標跟方向；經濟部能源署也說，未來十年每一年用電的需求會成長2.8%到3%；還有包括我們現在能源跟環境已經提升到總統自己站在第一線去處理氣候變遷的議題。在北部地區，我們也都知道北部地區每一年用電的需求高達200億度，所以媒體也在講，包括我今天早上也有看到部長回答柯志恩委員說，如果對於台電的補貼到位，但是我們仍舊在漲電價，電價還是不斷的漲，那就是你離開的時候。部長，我現在先請教你，你講這句話代表你覺得這個位置坐起來，你是有點倦勤嗎？還是很委屈？"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上已經請部長不能再講這種話了。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我在請教部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我替他回答。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你直接回答，你不要去管院長講什麼，其實這件事情就是在很多議題的想法，特別在能源政策上，您來自民間企業、產業界，我相信總統是看到您在產業界的能力才找您進來的，所以做該做的事、說該說的話。第一時間您提到台電未來不再撥補，要想辦法自己賺錢，自負盈虧，這是一個產業界的說法。"],["郭部長智輝：我來跟委員報告，我的意思是，這2,000億的撥補主要是調整台電的財務情況，未來電價的決定，漲不漲當然不是由我來決定，漲不漲價是由電價委員會來決定的，但是我必須要創造一個……"],["李委員彥秀：漲不漲是您來決定，還是電價委員會決定的？"],["郭部長智輝：是電價審議委員會決定的，不是我決定……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你早上講那個話……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我要創造台電沒有這樣的狀況。"],["李委員彥秀：您進來坐部長這個位置，這一連串從能源政策開始，媒體在批評，如果經濟部窮得只剩下漲價跟補助這兩件事情，而沒有去思考到整個上層的發電結構是不是合理……因為電價的成本跟能源政策的配比很重要，燃氣很貴，現在民進黨要非核家園，然後火力發電卻又在燒，用愛發電、用肺發電，所以能源配比政策到底要不要調整？你有沒有想法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的能源政策，當然我們現在……"],["李委員彥秀：能源配比、能源配比！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在與時俱進……"],["李委員彥秀：蔡英文有50%、30%、20%，至於賴政府的能源政策，院長，你有沒有想法？也沒有？還是蔡規賴隨？"],["卓院長榮泰：能源政策是國家……"],["李委員彥秀：因為這個牽涉到成本嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。能源政策是國家長遠、既定的、現在也在推動的政策，我們往這個目標走。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我才問你，是不是蔡規賴隨或蔡規卓隨？"],["卓院長榮泰：每一位總統都有他的看法，但是對已經在進行中的政策，我們首先希望能夠繼續走下去。我們現在……"],["李委員彥秀：所以目前不會調？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們並沒有否定現在任何的能源政策，而且我們認為發展綠能，在全世界來看是需要的。"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有說不能發展，我也支持喔！但我是指蔡英文的能源配比，你們是不是也是跟著？因為他的能源配比很清楚，50%、30%、20%……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不太一樣，現在新的能源配比是延續蔡總統的能源政策稍微修正。我們現在先把煤降為零，這個是我們的作法，所以我們要用綠電……"],["李委員彥秀：所以不修正？一樣是50%、30%、20%……"],["郭部長智輝：用綠電來補。"],["李委員彥秀：重點是再生能源今年只到10%，我看最後一張表只到10%，顯然是跳票的。雖然蔡英文跳票，不過他已經不在這個位置上。現在20%仍舊是跳票，怎麼辦呢？"],["郭部長智輝：本來是2025年可以達到20%，因為俄烏戰爭，所以讓它稍微delay，我們會在2026年11月達成這個目標，但是目標還是在2030年。2030年我們會讓綠電能夠滿足臺灣企業的需求。"],["李委員彥秀：你剛剛提到2030年，我現在看到你所有的用電規劃都是到2030年，你也曾經說目前所有的布局都是到2030年。卓院長，賴總統應該有想要爭取下一屆連任，下一屆總統是2028做到2032年，所以我就覺得很奇怪，能源政策、能源配比、供電及要留住國際AI產業這些大公司，絕對不是布局到2030年就夠了，這個對國家經濟政策來說是重要的。不論下一屆總統是誰，是賴總統續任或者是其他人，我覺得用電都不會只是布局到2030，所以絕對不是2030之後不干我的事。蔡英文可以這麼說，但是我相信賴總統跟卓院長不會這麼說，所以這個布局的說法是很奇怪的。","我最近看到，包括Google在馬來西亞也花了20億設廠，台積電也到美國花了650億美金設廠。我覺得一個成熟的產業要看的是10年、20年、30年，因為公司花上百億投資在這個地方是有長遠性的，所以你們講布局到2030年這件事情，外界完全沒有辦法接受。你身為一個產業界來的部長，你講布局只到2030年，我覺得這件事情會讓外界、產業界認為，臺灣的經濟部長怎麼會是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：不！委員，你現在……"],["李委員彥秀：卓院長，你能接受這樣的說法嗎？賴總統，可以接受我們現在布局只到2030年嗎？美國商會跟歐洲商會可以接受這樣的說法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：2030年是歐洲有RE100這樣的綠電規範，我們是在講綠電2030年，所以才用2030年為一個目標，2050年也是一個目標，我們是分段設置目標在努力的，不是說我們現在的計畫只做到2030年，不是這樣！"],["李委員彥秀：你的說法我在媒體上都可以看得到，但是我必須要提醒你們，你們現在都只保證2030年之前都不缺電，至少2030年，但2030年之後的電怎麼樣，拿出來給大家看，說服產業界、說服臺灣的國際廠。"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有計畫，因為蓋一個電廠要6年，任何一種電廠都要6年。"],["李委員彥秀：那我繼續再問，蓋一個電廠要6年，好。但我就要問院長，因為我剩下51秒，時間真的剩下不多。院長，很多事情要做最壞的打算，但是也要做最好的準備。雖然民進黨非核家園不要核二、核三，但是你現在廢掉核二、核三，如果2030年之後，我們的其他發電廠跟不上，你到2030年再來討論這件事就來不及，因為核二、核三必須要有一定的安全程序……"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解委員的想法。"],["李委員彥秀：你很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解，我跟委員報告兩件事情……"],["李委員彥秀：社會溝通或者是後續要找核廢料的去處都要現在開始談，所以核二、核三未來會不會是一個備用的選項，現在就要開始討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告兩件事情，任何一位總統都不會以連任來作為現在施政的思考，那會太短暫，我們是以國家長遠來思考，2030年是我們這一階段認為供電無虞，我們會往後推演，延著時間往後推演，委員請放心……"],["李委員彥秀：那就不要再講2030年，你要告訴外界、告訴國際廠商，臺灣的用電未來30年是一個怎樣的狀況，我們才有機會變成AI大國。"],["卓院長榮泰：正在往那個方向努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員質詢，也謝謝我們卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第7號邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}