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對不對那這個基金明年後年開始收你的預估這個基金到最後差不多會有多少規模60億後年後年5月會收到60億那最後也是60億"},{"start":45.373,"end":47.338,"text":"大概是60億,如果大家都認真檢探的話。"},{"start":56.702,"end":81.09,"text":"就是如果說大家都不減碳的話那當然就會到300億、300、400億左右不會到1000億啦不會不會那這個基金的管理是你成立一個委員會來管理就是環境部會成立一個溫室氣體管理基金那這個也會納入各個部會一起來參與所以有包括人民團體的捐贈啊什麼都變成這個基金的規模嗎"},{"start":83.399,"end":105.414,"text":"我看你1、2、3、4、5、6條還有其他收入等等那這個基金就是有多久要來立法院報告一次這個就是我們每年的預算審議的時候就會把預算的規模提出來今天有臨時提案那第二個問題就是碳費碳費是剛剛我有聽你講臺電所發出來的電賣給"},{"start":111.334,"end":111.854,"text":"每年虧損一千億"},{"start":138.576,"end":149.542,"text":"那這樣的話他台電這樣搞出來的七八千億的那個東西他一年的碳是差不多多少是幾千萬噸還是幾"},{"start":151.653,"end":168.392,"text":"臺電大概總個排量大概是1億噸左右大概1億噸左右1億噸對我們國家大概是2億6啦但是他是讓我們大家用阿所以他自己用自己排放他自己也會排放嘛"},{"start":169.653,"end":182.922,"text":"這個產生一個問題我們像歐盟他Codex就是華典委員會他我們醫療在用的食品衛生的什麼萊克多巴胺的是有一個華典委員會那現在歐盟"},{"start":184.403,"end":213.801,"text":"到底是什麼委員會在界定這個還有這個委員會的認定比如說今天中午一個便當來這個便當產生多少碳或者是說這個便當用紙盒或者是用環環境部的用鋼盒那這樣他的碳是多少是誰在說了算誰在定考試規則誰在定那個標準我接過新加坡來的他們也在定那到底這是什麼情形"},{"start":214.395,"end":233.723,"text":"報告委員這個是每個國家它的制度不一樣所以像有些像歐洲有些國家它就直接電力業就直接就課了它是上游就課了的確有些國家是這個樣子那有些國家跟我們一樣每個國家都不一樣對我說這個產生多少碳那個產生多少碳那是誰在說他多少那是誰在說好像我都說不說的"},{"start":240.606,"end":242.093,"text":"呃...應該是說...我們請正式來"},{"start":245.965,"end":273.726,"text":"跟委員報告就是說什麼樣的活動會產生多少排放或是做一個東西出來有的變成是組織的盤查有的是產品的盤查那這個都是首先有這個國際上的標準有ISO的標準我看現在也沒什麼標準啊現在新加坡來的來跟我談的他自己訂一套標準啊歐盟要一套標準啊我們台灣是認誰認誰的是彭部長你自己認還是誰啊"},{"start":275.487,"end":296.197,"text":"我跟委員報告是說 國際的標準比較有彈性所以每一個國家它內化成 譬如說我們說產品碳足跡我們還會用本國的係數去做一個調整所以如果是自願性的產品碳足跡 我們會用這個方式處理那如果說譬如說像歐盟CBAN 它要求產品要申報產品碳含量那歐盟就會訂規這個才跟委員報告就有點像CODEX這個味道是不是"},{"start":299.719,"end":302.961,"text":"那第二個問題就是你說要補助各縣市那各縣市是用什麼標準補助各縣市啊各縣市是要幹什麼事"},{"start":323.502,"end":341.945,"text":"報告委員其實因為大家對於這個碳費過去都有一個想像空間會有個幾千億那的確有些縣市首長就跟我說他要因為他也是排蛋大屋要跟我要很多但是我必須說其實這個國際上對於這種減碳一定要有一個真的去減碳有一個量出來"},{"start":342.726,"end":363.789,"text":"因為高屏那邊工廠都在高屏,然後公司設在台北市,然後在台北市繳稅,然後在高屏那邊放雞腮,沒有生雞腮,所以現在地方政府都嘩嘩叫,那台北市市政府稅收的那麼多的稅,250萬人口他可以收到兩三千億,"},{"start":365.544,"end":367.026,"text":"所以這個部長你要注意一下"},{"start":380.243,"end":387.445,"text":"最後一個問題要問你醫療的你上次有跟邱太仁有參加一個會你說醫療部門佔的排放比例是0.9然後如果加上一些供應鏈來的未要耗材等等會達到4.4"},{"start":408.257,"end":431.761,"text":"那這個醫療院所有在做減碳啊比如說像高雄大同醫院啊他們說再怎麼減怎麼減也能減到18%而已這到底是怎麼一回事因為我們醫療院所都是那些都是要低溫像核磁共振什麼什麼那些轉流照射那個都是要18、19度的冷氣吹24小時365天的這要減碳你也沒辦法減"},{"start":434.602,"end":453.337,"text":"我那空調是佔50%的所有電費阿傑你跟我講的是說要讓空調啦什麼的耗電能夠減低嘛所以叫醫療院所安心的跟著彭副董去做那不然就剩你了阿醫療院所幹不下去要怎麼處理"},{"start":454.638,"end":480.08,"text":"幫委員醫療院所我也特別這個問題有去問過有些收碳稅的國家醫療院所都沒有收所以各位委員可以放心但是未來會不會有馬上收因為這個是救人的所以我們不會主動來處理這一塊目前我們現在是幫醫療院所如果是8000千瓦以上的公私立醫院我們現在跟經濟部合組一個深度節能團隊這要錢我們現在正在找錢所以其實"},{"start":480.6,"end":484.042,"text":"所以你是找民間的一些資源來做一個團隊來輔導所有大中小型醫院如何來檢探嗎"},{"start":502.113,"end":522.443,"text":"好,那這樣的話,我們要如何轉述給所有的醫療院所,就是要怎麼說,叫他們大家稍安勿躁,因為那個環境部會做最好妥適的安排,然後會幫我們組團隊來輔導,然後看看能不能再減碳,再減。"},{"start":525.524,"end":545.38,"text":"最後一個問題還是問,像這個醫療耗材、胃藥耗材那個產生的碳的到底一個東西出來,譬如說一瓶點滴出來耗了多少碳、碳足跡等等,這個要界定清楚啦。我看你都這樣阿札公公、青菜公公的,有的說三噸就三噸,你做兩噸掉兩噸,這樣是不良化的。"},{"start":549.624,"end":565.676,"text":"有兩種,一個是自願性減碳,那個是大家自己去提,我們這邊是碳費是比較嚴格的,一定要真的去盤查認證,碳費出來才可以,所以那個都有一定的標準。這個是方面部長要用心。好,謝謝。"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:06:40 - 10:16:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我今天問你三個問題，第一個問題，你根據氣候變遷因應法第三十二條成立這個基金，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個基金明年、後年開始收，你預估這個基金到最後差不多會有多少規模？"],["彭部長啓明：後年5月會收到60億。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後也是60億？"],["彭部長啓明：大概是60億，如果大家都很認真減碳的話。"],["蘇委員清泉：像現在這樣繼續弄，到時候差不多是多少的規模？"],["彭部長啓明：如果說大家都不減碳的話，那當然就會到300億，三、四百億左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：不會到1,000億啦？"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個基金的管理是你成立一個委員會來管理？"],["彭部長啓明：環境部會成立一個溫室氣體管理基金，這個也會納入各個部會一起來參與。"],["蘇委員清泉：有包括人民、團體的捐贈等，什麼都變成這個基金的規模嘛！我看第一、二、三、四、五、六項，還有其他收入等等。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個基金多久要來立法院報告一次？"],["彭部長啓明：我們每年預算審議的時候就會把預算的規模提出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我今天有臨時提案。第二個問題就是碳費，剛剛我有聽你講，台電所發出來的電賣給民間中游、下游，然後台電自己用的電，你說差不多1,000萬噸嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：那我問你一個問題，這個問題你聽起來可能有點幼稚，但是因為大家都搞不清楚，連我都搞不清楚，台電一年的收入差不多七千出頭億，它的支出是八千多億，所以它每年虧損1,000億，這樣的話，台電搞出來七、八千億的那個東西，它一年的排碳量差不多是多少？是幾千萬噸還是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：台電總排碳量大概是1億噸左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：1億噸？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們國家大概是兩億六，但是它是讓我們大家用。"],["蘇委員清泉：它自己認的只有認1,000萬噸而已？"],["彭部長啓明：對，就是它自己用、自己排放，它自己也會排放嘛！"],["蘇委員清泉：這個產生一個問題，像歐盟的Codex法典委員會是負責我們醫療在用的食品衛生等，像萊克多巴胺是有一個法典委員會，現在歐盟到底是由什麼委員會在界定這個？還有這個委員會的認定，譬如說，今天中午一個便當來，這個便當產生多少碳，或者是這個便當用紙盒，或者像環境部是用鋼盒，這樣它的碳是多少、是誰說了算、誰在訂考試規則、誰在訂標準？我接過新加坡來的，他們也在訂，到底這是什麼情形？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是每個國家的制度不一樣，像歐洲有些國家的電力業直接就課了，它是上游就課了，的確有些國家是這個樣子，也有些國家是跟我們一樣，每個國家都不一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，我說這個產生多少碳、那個產生多少碳，它多少是誰在訂的？好像都是隨便說說，我認為都是在隨便說說。"],["彭部長啓明：應該是說……我請政次來說明。"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，什麼樣的活動會產生多少排放……"],["蘇委員清泉：或者做一個東西出來要產生……"],["施次長文真：對，有的變成是組織的盤查，有的是產品的盤查，這個首先要有國際上的標準、有ISO的標準……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看現在也沒什麼標準，現在新加坡來跟我談的，它就自己訂一套標準，歐盟也有一套標準，我們臺灣是認誰的？是彭部長你自己認，還是怎樣？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，國際的標準比較有彈性，所以每一個國家內化成，譬如說產品碳足跡，我們還會用本國的係數去做調整，所以如果是自願性的產品碳足跡，我們會用這個方式來處理。另外，像歐盟CBAM要求產品要申報產品碳含量，歐盟就會訂規則。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個是CBAM在界定，這個就有點像Codex這個味道，是不是？"],["施次長文真：對。"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，其實碳的問題有一個UNFCCC（聯合國氣候變遷綱要公約），它是整個核心，對於如何去訂碳定價，它是用一個大原則，讓每個區域、每個國家有它自己的細的子法。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個問題就是，你說要補助各縣市，補助各縣市是用什麼標準？各縣市是要幹什麼事？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為過去大家對於碳費都有一個想像空間，會有個幾千億，的確有些縣市首長跟我說，因為它也是排碳大戶，要跟我要很多。但是我必須說，其實國際上對於這種減碳一定要真的去減碳，要有一個量出來，所以目前辦法還沒有訂。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為很多工廠都在高屏，公司設在臺北市，然後在臺北市繳稅，在高屏那邊卻是「放雞屎，無生雞卵」，所以現在地方政府都在哇哇叫，覺得臺北市政府收了那麼多的稅，250萬人口就可以收到二、三千億。所以如果以後要補助各縣市，你是用算人頭，還是算工廠，還是算污染的程度？這個都要講清楚，不然到時候會起爭執，所以這個部分部長要注意一下。"],["彭部長啓明：可以，現在才60億，我們幫產業、幫國家的忙可能都不夠，要努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！以後如果有600億的時候，大家就要打架了。","最後一個問題我要問你醫療的。你上次跟邱泰源有參加一個會，你說醫療部門占的排放比例差不多是0.9%，如果加上一些供應鏈、衛藥耗材等等，會達到4.4%。醫療院所有在做減碳，但像高雄大同醫院就說，再怎麼減碳也只能減到18%而已，這到底是怎麼一回事？因為我們醫療院所都是要低溫，像核磁共振等等，那些都是要18、19度的冷氣吹24小時、365天，這個要減碳也沒辦法減，我們的空調就占所有電費的5、60%。你跟我講的是，要讓空調什麼的耗電能夠減低，所以叫醫療院所安心的跟著彭部長走，不然就算你的。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：但醫療院所降不下來，要怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於醫療院所，我也特別針對這個問題去問有收碳稅的國家，他們醫療院所都沒有收，所以委員可以放心。但是未來會不會又馬上收？因為這個是救人的，所以我們不會主動來處理這一塊。目前我們幫醫療院所的是，如果是8,000瓩以上的公私立醫院，我們現在跟經濟部合組一個深度節能團隊，但這個要錢，我們現在正在找錢。其實總統有提醒我，要幫醫院去找預算出來，所以我們找了金管會做這個事情，未來一、兩個月應該就會公布一些方法出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你是找民間的資源來做一個團隊、來輔導所有大、中、小型醫院如何來減碳，你的意思是這樣嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這樣的話，我們要如何轉述給所有的醫療院所？就是要這樣說，叫大家稍安勿躁……"],["彭部長啓明：稍安勿躁，真的稍安勿躁。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二、環境部會做最好、妥適的安排，然後會幫我們組團隊來輔導，看看能不能再節能減碳、再減。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後一個問題，像醫療耗材、衛藥耗材所產生的碳，到底一個東西出來，譬如說一瓶點滴出來耗了多少碳，包括碳足跡等等，這個要界定清楚，不然我看你們都隨便說說，你說3噸就3噸，你說2噸就2噸，這樣是不量化的。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，有兩種，一個是自願性減碳，那個是大家自己去提碳足跡；我們這邊的碳費是比較嚴格的，一定要真的去盤查、認證碳費出來才可以，所以那個都有一定的標準。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這方面部長要用心啦！謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我在這邊作以下宣告：在王正旭委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}