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144項解除列管120幾項喔也是不錯嘛解除列管是不是真的解決啦解除列管是不是解決問題啦就請教一下你覺得呢當然不是說做完以後解除就沒有問題齁後續所以在鐵道局在監理方面部分他一直"},{"start":210.365,"end":230.965,"text":"針對這些解除的過去曾經被列管的案件還做一些檢查重複的再去看一下有沒有在辦我想不是說我們解除以後就不再管了這些是因為我們認為他做了講得不夠清楚或做了沒有一個完整的具體的作為出來所以我們不同意他解除列管"},{"start":231.425,"end":258.899,"text":"所以我是覺得很多民眾也認為啦提檢總是要有個期間2018年到現在整整10月20、20幾號就快6年滿6年了你的提檢還沒做完我覺得真的交通部要好好下來督導一下提檢做好了譬如說剛剛好多委員講過的這個安全管理系統你們導入嘛你們也報告好幾次那導入半天那今年我們這個"},{"start":261.061,"end":279.543,"text":"應該去年年底嘛然後去請教請教有媒體去請教你們的員工啦抽冊啦而且有蠻多對於什麼事SMS都搞不太清楚我覺得以前在企業搞那個ISO9000你知道嗎那每一個員工都很重要你知道嗎"},{"start":280.023,"end":280.863,"text":"明日號事件是真的還假的?"},{"start":308.478,"end":333.74,"text":"報告委員是真的是真的那個是跟委員報告這個是因為我們我們這個負責編組的我們的車號的同仁他電報看錯所以他在掛車廂的時候他漏掛了一截好這個林主委運安會林主委這個聽起來這個感覺小事不小心看錯報告了"},{"start":335.066,"end":360.051,"text":"你知道嗎 有點感覺 唉呦 看錯報告了 原來要飛747啊 我怎麼開了737來了 客人不夠在我覺得這個是一個 你覺得這是大事還是小事啊 林主委你是運安會嘛你覺得這一件事情 原因對於運輸安全實質的影響 並沒有 沒有看到可是員工的態度 或者員工訓練上面 你看出什麼問題來"},{"start":361.834,"end":362.614,"text":"市長,這個火車開出去了,不小心,少掛一截"},{"start":385.973,"end":414.303,"text":"然後呢五星級的明日號一萬多才可以旅遊一趟真的五星級啊但是我們的表現啊是零星級的低級的錯誤真的很低級的錯誤那個杜董事長請問一下掃掛是哪一節是乘客艙還是沙發沒帶出去客廳艙還是還是那個吧台乘客艙客艙嘛所以說客人"},{"start":415.646,"end":427.593,"text":"沒有座位坐那等於說他們站著跑了幾站是吧到南港才把家掛出去對後來後來我們有做補救措施啦在南港把這個車廂再把他掛上然後才啟程"},{"start":429.212,"end":453.749,"text":"因為我覺得這個真的是很離譜啊我跟你講聽起來好笑然後但是覺得真的很低級的錯誤但是這種錯誤坦白講你知道嗎我牽了一隻牛出去吃草回家的時候我只是忘了帶牛回來那我覺得很低級啊發生什麼事情這麼大的一件事情居然會有這樣的一個情況那就請教一下這我看到兩大問題啦"},{"start":455.51,"end":472.357,"text":"第一大問題是到底多少人會參與這個每一天點車廂、掛車廂、數車廂這樣的工作第一個員工本身看單子第二個檢察人司機員這是你們工會說的司機員"},{"start":473.658,"end":475.799,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":496.664,"end":496.944,"text":"市長你覺得你說說看對"},{"start":517.219,"end":542.782,"text":"我今天很抱歉我真的很抱歉你剛聽說對我今天才知道這個事情那這個我想我確實剛聽起來感覺是不可思議啦那這個部分我想我們會再請那個台鐵針對剛講他整個的標準作業程序再來檢視看到底是哪一個環節錯了或是要再增加double check的一個功能"},{"start":543.476,"end":546.099,"text":"昨天媒體在跟你講前天的事 台鐵第一時間回覆"},{"start":559.184,"end":576.434,"text":"有沒有這件事我來查證我聽了這是第二個恐怖的事情就是說你double check現場檢查的機制居然沒有辦法這個事情確實做好第二個呢出問題了不管大事小事你居然沒有積極的回報的一個制度"},{"start":577.475,"end":577.955,"text":"跟委員報告我知道"},{"start":605.242,"end":620.943,"text":"而且當下我們查證跟委員報告剛剛委員講的這一個疏失不是列車長或者是司機員我剛剛跟委員報告是我們的車號還有我們的這個吊車場的主管要負責"},{"start":622.096,"end":639.487,"text":"好那其他人都不用沒有人double check就掛錯就錯了你們未來機制會不會改變啊這個玩笑不要開啦是是是跟委員報告齁這個的確齁我們的double check跟整個機制齁我們會充分的檢討以後不發生這種事"},{"start":641.504,"end":667.58,"text":"這個因為我是覺得真的非常非常離譜而且那種五星級的明日日號結果明日日號真的是明天明天再來今天沒有今天車忘記掛了這個東西我是覺得真的是不行而且你們反應的機制像這種不光是這個事件的問題新聞性蠻大的交通部不知道我覺得你們距離公司化之後距離交通部真的是越來越遠這個最後"},{"start":671.563,"end":692.323,"text":"臺鐵的一個事故的一個比例大家期待的一個安全我們看到那個數字跟去年同期1到7月的比較總事故可能是有些是小的事故成長了40%行車的異常成長了40%重大事故從去年同期的0變成4你有什麼說法"},{"start":694.425,"end":713.651,"text":"各位委員報告這一個我們1到7月的包括事故還有這個異常的事件的數量的確有增加但是這有三個主要原因第一個就是今年的天災比較嚴重第二個就是我們車廂老舊我們的努力還不夠"},{"start":714.611,"end":743.13,"text":"那第三個就是我們現在在推安全文化所以我們今年開始公司我們對於事故事件我們想列的這個項目有別於以往我們用重研的這個角度來列這個事故事件所以有多列好我最後再說不光是交通部網站全民包括所有委員都在關心公司化之後到底做了什麼改變我們希望你們要自力自強謝謝"},{"start":744.892,"end":745.112,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:18:05 - 10:30:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時18分）謝謝主席。有請我們交通部伍次長。"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["魯委員明哲：臺鐵杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜微董事長。"],["魯委員明哲：還有運安會林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["伍次長勝園：召委好。"],["魯委員明哲：好。其實因為正好從上一屆立委到這一屆，我全程經歷到臺鐵整個公司化的過程，我感覺公司化的過程，除了改變財政、營運當時為主要的一個目標，其實大家都說要成立公司，當時的小英總統說成立臺鐵公司來改善行車安全，杜董事長也宣示安全、安全、安全！安全是不是公司化……很多東西、業務，你帶走了，有些留在交通部，到底現在情況是怎麼樣？首先來看看，我們臺鐵的大體檢，體檢都會做完嘛，你們大體檢做完沒有？因為這是從普悠瑪事件2018年10月份成立的，政府宣示的大體檢，體檢現在做完沒有？因為你宣布還沒做完嘛！現在還有安全改革十七項沒有做完，組織改革、營運改革總共兩項，現在只有十九項還沒有解除列管，可是這個大體檢是2018年成立，那時候是很感人啦，第一次院級的，由政務委員來帶領跨部會，然後成立這個，然後85天之後就變成中體檢，中體檢就丟給你們臺鐵，那時候臺鐵還在交通部，現在呢？今年1月1日，你們就帶著走了，由臺鐵公司自己去成立。我是覺得你們現在還沒有解除列管，因為很多是安全改革的部分，董事長說一下，那個急迫性怎麼樣？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，其實這個是還沒有獲得交通部解除列管，不是沒有做，現在所有一百四十四項總體檢的改善事項，我們都有在推動，其中只有三項是屬於中長程的，我們還在持續努力，其他的我們都已經提報給交通部了，其中就是這邊講的十九項，部裡面認為我們提供的資料或者是事證還不完全，所以現在還在補充當中。"],["魯委員明哲：好。次長，因為要解除列管，還是要送到我們交通部嘛？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["魯委員明哲：交通部，我覺得軌道的部分，你是專家啦，這個還沒有解除列管的話，就簡單，你送的文件或者改善措施沒有受到你們完整的認可，所以還沒有解除列管。我想請教一下，因為過去您是鐵道局局長，現在接次長，對於一百四十四項解除列管一百二十幾項，也是不錯嘛！你覺得解除列管是不是真的解決了？解除列管是不是解決問題？就請教一下，你覺得呢？"],["伍次長勝園：報告委員，當然不是做完以後，解除就沒有問題，後續鐵道局在監理方面，它還是針對這些解除的、過去曾經被列管的案件，再做一些檢查，重複地再去看一下有沒有再犯，我想不是我們解除以後就不再管了，這些是因為我們認為它做得、講得不夠清楚，或做得沒有一個完整的、具體的作為出來，所以我們不同意它解除列管。"],["魯委員明哲：所以我是覺得，很多民眾也認為體檢總是要有個期間，2018年到現在，到十月二十幾號就快6年，滿6年了，你的體檢還沒做完，我也覺得真的交通部要好好下來督導一下。體檢做好了，譬如剛剛好多委員講過的Safety，就安全管理系統，你們導入嘛！你們也報告好幾次，導入了半天，應該去年年底，有媒體去請教你們的員工，抽測，滿多員工對於什麼是SMS都搞不太清楚。以前在企業搞那個ISO9000，你知道嗎？每一個員工都很重要，你知道嗎？不是他能夠在這個系統上面，十二個大指標，他能做什麼，而是他必須知道他不要去犯錯，他可能犯錯。這個是你們已經在109年（2020年）一百四十四項裡面的列管，當時已經解解除列管了，解除列管這麼多年，我們真的希望能夠紮實。","再來，鳴日號事件是真的還假的？"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，是真的。"],["魯委員明哲：是真的。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個是因為我們負責編組車號的同仁，他電報看錯，所以他在掛車廂的時候，漏掛了一節。"],["魯委員明哲：好，運安會林主委，這個聽起來感覺是小事，不小心看錯報告。你知道嗎？有點感覺──哎呀！看錯報告了，原來要飛747，我怎麼開了737來了，客人不夠載。我覺得這是一個……你覺得這是大事還是小事啊？林主委，你是運安會，你覺得這一件事情也許對於運輸安全並沒有實質的影響，沒有看到，可是員工的態度或者員工訓練上面，你看出什麼問題？"],["林主任委員信得：我想這是組織文化的問題，他現在在推組織文化SMS改善，委員剛在螢幕上提到員工不清楚什麼是SMS，這確實是我們有碰過，確實是要把它宣導到扎根到最基層去，確實是沒問題的。"],["魯委員明哲：好。次長，火車開出去了，不小心少掛一節，然後五星級的鳴日號，一萬多才可以旅遊一趟，真的五星級，但是我們的表現是零星級的、低級的錯誤，真的很低級的錯誤。杜董事長，請問一下，少掛是哪一節？是乘客艙，還是沙發沒帶出去？客廳艙還是吧檯？"],["杜董事長微：乘客艙。"],["魯委員明哲：客艙嘛！所以客人沒有座位坐，等於他們站著跑了幾站是不是？到南港才把它加掛出去？"],["杜董事長微：對，後來我們有做補救措施啦！在南港再把這個車廂掛上，然後才啟程。"],["魯委員明哲：我覺得這個真的是很離譜啊！聽起來好笑，但是覺得真的是很低級的錯誤，但是這種錯誤……坦白講你知道嗎？我牽了一隻牛出去吃草，回家的時候我只是忘了帶牛回來，我覺得很低級啊！發生什麼事情？這麼大的一件事情居然會有這樣的情況，那就請教一下，這我看到兩大問題，第一大問題是到底多少人會參與每一天點車廂、掛車廂、數車廂這樣的工作？第一個員工本身，看單子。第二個檢查員、司機員，這是你們工會說的，司機員是開普悠瑪，不要開到貨車，所以要看一下到底到位沒有，對不對？第三個是列車長，對不對？列車長、司機員這麼多人都失靈，還有一些你SMS或是其他的導入，書面、黑板要寫，一定要給別人看，確認到底發生什麼事，你們原本設計這麼多的檢查措施，結果列車長也沒有double check，然後司機員也就這樣開走了，所以我覺得這是一件很危險的事，你現有的檢查制度出事了，次長，你覺得呢？你說說看。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我今天……很抱歉，真的很抱歉，這個是今天……"],["魯委員明哲：你剛聽說啊？"],["伍次長勝園：對，我今天才知道這個事情……"],["魯委員明哲：Oh my god！"],["伍次長勝園：確實剛剛聽起來，感覺是不可思議啦！這個部分我想我們會再請臺鐵針對剛剛講的整個標準作業程序，再來檢視看到底是哪一個環節錯了，或者是要再增加double check的功能。"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，第二個問題剛剛講了，就是神經末梢……不是末梢喔！這已經不是末梢了，就整個鈍掉了你知道嗎？昨天媒體在跟你講前天的事，臺鐵第一時間的回復是有沒有這件事我來查證，我聽了這是第二個恐怖的事情，就是你double check現場檢查的機制居然沒有辦法把事情確實做好。第二個，出問題了，不管大事小事，你居然沒有積極回報的制度，不光是這三個該檢查的人，而是後面救援車的人又多一個駕駛，又開車出去了，救援的人員居然整個……你們不知道，要不然你就是裝。","我再問一下董事長，請問一下昨天媒體請教你的時候，你們第一時間，我不知道是不是你回答說：抱歉！不清楚，我們馬上來查證是否屬實。你是真的不知道是不是？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，跟委員報告，我知道，而且當下我們查證……跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的這一個疏失，不是列車長或者是司機員，我剛剛跟委員報告是我們的車號，還有我們的調車場的主管要負責。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那其他人都不用……沒有人double check，掛錯就錯了，你們未來的機制會不會改變？這個玩笑不要開啦！"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，的確double check跟整個機制我們會充分地檢討，以後不發生這種事。"],["魯委員明哲：因為我是覺得真的非常非常離譜，而且是那種五星級的鳴日號，結果鳴日號真的是明天再來，今天沒有，今天車忘記掛了，這個東西我是覺得真的是不行，而且你們反映的機制，像這種不光是這個事件的問題，新聞性滿大的，你交通部不知道，我覺得你們公司化之後距離交通部真的是越來越遠。","最後，臺鐵的一個事故比例，大家期待的安全，我們看到那個數字跟去年同期1到7月的比較，可能有些是小的事故，但總事故成長了40%，行車的異常也成長了40%，重大事故從去年同期的0變成4，你有什麼說法？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們1到7月包括事故，還有異常事件的數量的確有增加，但是這有三個主要原因，第一個就是今年的天災比較嚴重；第二個就是我們車廂老舊，我們的努力還不夠；第三個就是我們現在在推安全文化，所以今年開始公司對於事故、事件，我們詳列的項目有別於以往，我們用從嚴的角度來列事故、事項，所以有多列出來。"],["魯委員明哲：好。我最後再說，不光是交通部，我看全民包括所有委員都在關心公司化之後到底做了什麼改變，我們希望你們要自立自強，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委。","接下來邀請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","黃國昌","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","游顥","邱若華","劉建國","林沛祥","葉元之"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股\n份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}