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類似歐盟其他委員又提到CBANK"},{"start":65.25,"end":92.177,"text":"這個是對於進口的產品來講的話要課這個這個碳費啊那我們這一部分為什麼沒有辦法同時訂出來這讓國內的企業感覺感覺是我競爭已經非常不利了現在更加不利報告委員其實這個是2026年他們才正式實施現在都是事行申報所以其實還有一點時間那他預計他的細節等於是CBAN就是碳邊境調整機制他預計是明年的年終才會把細節提出來"},{"start":92.517,"end":94.158,"text":"臺灣版的CBank什麼時候可以出爐?臺灣版的CBank什麼時候可以出爐?"},{"start":108.928,"end":133.868,"text":"出爐等於是研議完了就會很快來出爐但是我們會先用進口的商品就要等於是說例如說水泥進口的水泥就要同時申報它的碳量當然是這樣子啊你現在對於水泥現在來講的話水泥就已經課碳費啦是不是來講的話實話一樣啊那國外的這個水泥也進來的國外的實話也進來的為什麼不課當然會啊當然未來會朝這個方向進行啊所以可不可以在這裡承諾2026如果你要當補充的話"},{"start":138.391,"end":147.261,"text":"我們跟歐盟同時同步同步就是我開始實施我開始實施對國內的這些產業我課碳費的同時我就對進口的產品一樣課碳費可以嗎"},{"start":153.809,"end":175.987,"text":"我會保證保障國內產業的要求這個是我一定會承諾那另外一個呢是立法或是修正的係數其實我們要貼近歐盟所以我一直在觀察歐盟還有鄰近國家其實我們也跟日本上禮拜我也跟日本的官員在討論這個事情好 既然你看到鄰近國家包括日本新加坡歐洲的瑞典瑞士芬蘭挪威都是課碳稅不是碳費為什麼你跟人家不一樣"},{"start":179.72,"end":198.994,"text":"這個是過去他們制定的但是我是接續他所以我努力把它完整政策的延續但是碳稅跟碳費是有點不一樣稅是大水庫理論就進到財政部去費是專款專用但是整個國際的精神上碳費稅是一體的所以我們基本上是就是可以說是碳稅的一體"},{"start":200.735,"end":220.509,"text":"碳費錢在你手上,五百億在你手上,碳費不在你手上,本位主義當然不要啊!委員,那個新加坡的就是碳稅,他們是專款專用,一個是專款專用,一個不是專款專用。日本呢?日本是不是?日本是地球溫暖化對策稅。對嘛,它是稅嘛,進去財政部不一樣,這個來講答案就很簡單嘛,因為你環境部中亂嘛,那你這個五百億你怎麼用?"},{"start":227.614,"end":242.242,"text":"沒有500億60億60億有人算出來500億喔那個錯的訊息錯的訊息啊那再一個錯的訊息啊說CPI會增加0.18GDP會增加0.48我有這本的書我再送給委員這裡面只有0.00幾而已"},{"start":243.983,"end":244.023,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":261.943,"end":279.309,"text":"有沒有這種你的message,現在碳費,有人講說你先行,主要3塊嘛,一個碳費一個碳稅,一個是碳排放的總量管制的交易,這3大塊,你現在說我碳費先行"},{"start":280.561,"end":282.882,"text":"總量管制就是碳權交易嘛!"},{"start":306.114,"end":312.021,"text":"對,總量管制的排放交易,就ETS,符合歐洲或是...那個不一樣,那個現在他們推的是自主減量的,不一樣那個叫做欺世盜名啊!"},{"start":321.751,"end":326.935,"text":"委員不能這樣說,他們是屬於自主減量的但是他們未來如果走到總量管制的碳交易,他們就有存在的價值?沒有嘛,跟你講這不一樣嘛,他做的就是針對外國外的這個碳權的買賣交易,讓你在那裡,類似在那裡這個炒股票而已,就這樣講"},{"start":348.55,"end":372.322,"text":"他們沒有炒股票,是可以買到比較公信力的生技探訣你講說可以買到,我就說這個買賣,只要有買賣就有炒作了所以我要跟你強調一個東西就是後面的總量管制的交易是非常重要的沒有這一塊,其實你能做什麼我現在正在往那個方向走什麼時候可以有成績?4年內"},{"start":374.414,"end":374.674,"text":"我相信這個"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:50:33 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11:57:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":880,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時50分）謝謝主席、各位先進。有請環境部彭部長以及經濟部署長。"],["主席：請彭部長、楊署長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。我先請教彭部長，以今天來講，現在要收碳費，但有些人就提出環境部過去都有收空污費、水污費、土污費，基本上是關於污染的，所以CO2是不是就是污染？"],["彭部長啓明：過去在環保署時代，曾經一度把CO2視為污染物，但是它是一種溫室氣體，不應該當作污染物。"],["賴委員士葆：它是不是污染物？"],["彭部長啓明：過去是有這樣的定義啦，但是它在國際上應該不是污染物。"],["賴委員士葆：就是一個溫體……"],["彭部長啓明：溫室氣體。"],["賴委員士葆：好。以現在來講，我們看到你現在訂的是碳費，一噸300塊，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["賴委員士葆：這是針對國內的企業，可是以國際來講，類似歐盟，其他委員也有提到，CBAM是針對進口的產品要課碳費，我們這部分為什麼沒有辦法同時訂出來？這讓國內的企業感覺，我競爭已經非常不利了，現在更加不利。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個是2026年他們才正式實施，現在都是試行申報，所以其實還有一點時間。至於其細節CBAM（碳邊境調整機制）預計要在明年年中才會把細節提出來，所以現在大家都是提申報，我們會貼緊歐盟的腳步走，在試行申報的部分，我會從明年開始啟動，但是這個須要跨部會的協調，我們正在做這個事情。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣版的CBAM什麼時候可以出爐？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望明年就真的來研議這個事情，因為還有時間……"],["賴委員士葆：不是研議，你要出爐啦！"],["彭部長啓明：等於是研議完了，就可以很快出爐，但是我們會先針對進口的商品，例如進口的水泥，就要同時申報它的碳含量係數。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是這樣子啊！你現在對於水泥就已經課碳費了，是不是？石化也一樣啊！國外的水泥運進來、國外的石化運進來為什麼不課？"],["彭部長啓明：當然會啊！未來當然會朝著這個方向進行。"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以在這裡承諾，2026如果你還在當部長的話，我們跟歐盟同時同步，就是開始對國內這些產業課碳費的同時，也對進口產品一樣課碳費，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我會保證、保障國內產業的要求，這是我一定會承諾的。另外一個是，立法或是修正的係數，我們要貼近歐盟，所以我一直在觀察歐盟還有鄰近國家。其實上禮拜我也跟日本的官員在討論這個事情，他們也是同步在做。"],["賴委員士葆：好，既然你提到鄰近國家，包括日本、新加坡、歐洲的瑞典、瑞士、芬蘭、挪威都是課碳稅而不是碳費，為什麼你跟人家不一樣？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是過去他們制定的，我是接續它，所以我努力把它完成，是政策的延續。但是碳稅跟碳費是有一點不一樣……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不知道為什麼要課碳稅？"],["彭部長啓明：「稅」是大水庫理論，就是進到財政部去；「費」是專款專用，但是整個國際的精神上，碳費、碳稅是一體的，所以我們基本上就可以說是碳稅的一種。"],["賴委員士葆：用白話文講啦！碳費是錢在你手上，有500億在你手上，碳稅不在你手上，用本位主義來看，當然一樣啊！"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣！報告委員，新加坡的就是碳稅，他們是專款專用，一個是專款專用，一個不是專款專用。"],["賴委員士葆：日本呢？日本是不是……"],["彭部長啓明：日本是地球溫暖化對策稅。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！它是稅嘛！和錢進財政部不一樣，這樣講答案就很簡單嘛！因為你環境部這樣會中斷嘛！那這500億你會怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有500億，是60億。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：60億。"],["賴委員士葆：有人算起來是500億喔！"],["彭部長啓明：那個是錯的訊息。"],["賴委員士葆：是錯的訊息？好。那再一個錯的訊息，說CPI會增加0.18%，GDP會增加0.4%，是這樣子嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我有這本書，會再送給委員。"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["彭部長啓明：這裡面只有零點零零幾而已。"],["賴委員士葆：你講的話我就不太相信，零點零零幾等於你那邊是1啊！這樣來講就等於都沒有課到！"],["彭部長啓明：所以委員可以看裡面詳細的費率，如果我們按照上市櫃公司，它的ESG報告都符合減碳企圖心的話，都可以享到優惠費率，其實那個衝擊力……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你有沒有這種mindset？現在是碳費，有人講說你要先行，主要有三塊：一個碳費、一個碳稅、一個是碳排放總量管制的交易，這三大塊。你現在說碳費先行是不是？後面當然有後行的啊！後行的是不是碳稅？或者是交易……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費（稅）是一起的，所以我們認為碳費（稅）就是先行。"],["賴委員士葆：所以徵了碳費就沒有稅了？以後也不會再改變成稅？"],["彭部長啓明：碳費（稅）就是一起的，這是我們內閣裡面很大的一個共識。未來我也對外承諾，我4年內會走到總量管制的排放交易，就是ETS，所以這個部分我們朝那個方向去做。"],["賴委員士葆：總量管制就是碳權交易嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，總量管制的排放交易（ETS），符合歐洲或是……"],["賴委員士葆：金管會的碳權交易是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那個不一樣，他們現在推的是自主減量。"],["賴委員士葆：那個叫做欺世盜名啦！這裡面來講，國內的企業都不能用，也不能買、不能賣，那是針對對國外的。"],["彭部長啓明：委員不能這樣說，他們是屬於自主減量的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子嗎？我在財委會我很清楚啊！這根本就是騙人的。"],["彭部長啓明：但是他們未來如果走到總量管制的碳交易，他們就有存在的價值。"],["賴委員士葆：我就跟你講，這個不一樣啦！它做的就是針對國外碳權的買賣交易，類似在那裡炒股票而已，講起來就是有這樣而已！"],["彭部長啓明：他們沒有炒股票，而是可以買到比較具有公信力的……"],["賴委員士葆：同樣意思啦！你講說可以買到，我就說這個買賣，只要有買賣就有炒作，所以我要跟你強調一個東西，後面總量管制的交易是非常重要的，沒有這一塊，其實再怎麼做都只是做一半而已。"],["彭部長啓明：我現在正在往那個方向走。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有成績？"],["彭部長啓明：4年內。報告委員，這個都需要時間的喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你部長就當不了4年，還說成這樣！"],["彭部長啓明：委員不能這樣說，這個制度是需要長期去建立的。"],["賴委員士葆：好大的口氣！碳權交易從10年前講到現在，還沒有一個比較像樣的，像金管會那個就是騙人的！好，謝謝！"],["主席：我相信這個政策是延續的。","我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有兩案，請一併宣讀。","臨時提案：","一、","案由：根據氣候變遷因應法第32條規定，中央主管機關應成立溫室氣體管理基金，該法第33條規定，溫室氣體管理基金係專供溫室氣體減量和氣候調適用途。然該基金的核定使用標準及監督機制為何？並未明確說明。","爰提案要求環境部，每一年應向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交一份「溫室氣體管理基金」執行暨改善計畫書面報告，以維護溫室氣體基金使用的正當性及執行績效。","提案人：蘇清泉　　廖偉翔　　陳菁徽","二、","有鑑於我國碳費定價已經定案，將於明年開始申報碳費，後年繳費，我國業者青年將開始增加成本，惟目前我國碳邊境調整機制（台版CBAM）卻仍尚未定案，對國內業者造成不公平競爭條件。爰要求環境部應立即協調相關機關，儘速確定台版CBAM方案，於國內啟動碳費徵收時，同步推動台版CBAM，並請環境部於二個月內將本案推動辦理情形函復予本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔　　王育敏"],["主席：請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["蔡署長玲儀：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，無異議就照案通過。","第2案呢？行政單位有沒有意見？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，第2案就是有關臺版CBAM，因為剛剛部長的說明就是我們一定要跟歐盟一樣，要先從申報開始，所以我們建議在文字上面，「儘速確定台版CBAM方案……」建議修改為「研議台版CBAM方案，於國內啟動碳費徵收時，同步規劃台版CBAM申報制度」，後面的部分一樣。"],["主席：委員有沒有意見？"],["邱委員鎮軍：主席，其他的文字我沒什麼意見，就是那個「同步『推動』」，你們說要改成「規劃」我覺得……這樣有差嗎？我沒有說要同步實施啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：推動跟規劃得差不多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，差不多嘛，對不對？規劃不知道要搞到什麼時候，好不好？用「推動」還是有一點空間給你，好不好？"],["主席：那就照剛剛委員所提的文字修正通過喔？好，第2案就照剛剛的文字修正通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}