{"error":false,"id":["155439"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155439,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155439","日期":"2024-10-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-14T11:59:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-14T12:06:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"委員名稱":"王鴻薇","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d4cdf32868ad364bcc4d69565d9f4efbba3f46e895646c91ce23de861f6e8a42dc4b3d14b593074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.18659375,"end":4.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.265968750000003,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.22659375,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.33534375,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.297218750000003,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.97221875,"end":26.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.01846875,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.23784375,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.86221875,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.68909375,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.688468750000002,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.92846875,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.31721875,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.75784375,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.87971875000001,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.33096875000001,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.36721875,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.25096875000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.25784375,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.54409375,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.50159375000001,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.69534375,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.62346875,"end":123.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.77534375,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.99034375000001,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.39096875000001,"end":128.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.75346875,"end":149.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.96534375000002,"end":154.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.62284375000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.03534375,"end":169.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.02971875,"end":171.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.63284375,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.13784375,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.29284375,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.78159375,"end":193.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.82346875000002,"end":197.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.26159375,"end":199.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.55659375000002,"end":203.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.96534375000002,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.03159375,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.03971875000002,"end":216.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.62159375000002,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.70596875,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.32909375000003,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.78784375,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.46284375000002,"end":243.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.99721875,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.63409375,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.14034375000003,"end":263.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.09096875,"end":265.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.20034375,"end":266.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.16221875,"end":269.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.84534375000004,"end":271.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.08971875000003,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.02534375,"end":280.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.39221875000004,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.65784375000004,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.08784375,"end":291.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.41159375,"end":293.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.57159375000003,"end":295.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.88346875,"end":301.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.31284375,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.66659375,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.10534375000003,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.06284375,"end":310.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.56159375000004,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.25596875,"end":344.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.16284375000004,"end":350.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.45284375,"end":353.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.63846875,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.50534375,"end":369.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.52221875000004,"end":366.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.55971875,"end":377.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.74096875000004,"end":374.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.96346875,"end":378.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.39784375000005,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.53284375000004,"end":379.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.35909375,"end":392.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.40909375,"end":393.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.48846875000004,"end":395.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.51346875,"end":397.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.75784375,"end":402.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.41096875000005,"end":405.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.24596875000003,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.56534375,"end":416.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.308,"end":8.328,"text":"產發署"},{"start":23.61,"end":23.85,"text":"委員好"},{"start":53.39,"end":53.43,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":74.392,"end":85.676,"text":"我們再來看這個第二頁其實我們一直在說就是錯誤的能源政策他會的影響層面很大不僅僅只是台電的虧損不僅僅只是漲電價而已而且呢他對於我們要去達成我們的一個就是減碳"},{"start":95.899,"end":117.095,"text":"也有它的難度,所以我們現在原來2025減碳10%已經跳票了,必須要延後而事實上我們現在主要課真的都是這些排碳大戶,所以部長應該清楚在所有排碳大戶裡面占比最多的是哪一個行業"},{"start":119.041,"end":119.842,"text":"電力業、能源業"},{"start":136.531,"end":136.871,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":161.137,"end":168.613,"text":"因為事實上如果根據你們現在科徵的費率臺電和中油都是排碳大戶"},{"start":170.083,"end":197.208,"text":"都是排碳大戶你說台電可以一直跟我們立法院要求怎麼追加預算補貼可是事實上有很多的民營電廠不是嗎對不對還是有很多的民營電廠所以我在這邊要請教我們經濟部的長官請問一下當我們這個碳費實施之後能不能保證我們的油電價格的成本"},{"start":198.308,"end":223.571,"text":"可以完全控制呢?我們油電價格會不會因此而提高?我剛剛講我最關心的是我們消費者現油電這個漲價大家就已經受不了了好未來在碳費實施會不會轉嫁到我們的電價轉嫁到我們的油價所以可不可以保證油電價格不因為我們碳費的徵收而因此提高可不可以?"},{"start":225.653,"end":240.226,"text":"跟委員報告,那油電價格在我們經濟部裡面會有人員署跟台電、中油這邊會很詳實的評估啦。那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那"},{"start":251.776,"end":278.075,"text":"最近不是郭國文委員在大罵卓榮泰院長嗎在大罵經濟部說怎麼搞的我們那麼多的天然氣發電廠都放在我們台南你要彌補這個gap當然天然氣最快啊對不對所以請問台電如何減量呢所以這就是錯誤我必須講非核家園就是我們沒辦法達成排碳減量目標的最大破口啦"},{"start":279.396,"end":305.783,"text":"錯誤能源政策真的影響一大堆啊這個其實是現在大家比較少去注視到的那未來你油電價格要不要漲嘛那個我們環境部部長來你在整個的這個評估裡面對產業的影響裡面剛才你也承認電力是最大的這個排放量那未來油電價格要不要漲啊它要被徵收碳費啊"},{"start":306.704,"end":330.44,"text":"報告委員,你說的數字是有問題的,如果按照目前台電的電力規劃,它是可以自主減量的,它只要繳5億桌左右而已。所以其實第一個是它跟過去能源價格上漲,基本上造成的波動是完全不一樣。那我們其實委員你剛剛提供的CPI數字,其實我們算出來也只有0.08而已,所以並沒有像委員說的那麼的高。"},{"start":330.7,"end":340.753,"text":"這是經濟來自於經濟部的計算那我最後一句話我時間到了所以那麼環境部長可以幫我保證就是碳費實施之後然後我們的油電價格不漲嗎"},{"start":342.661,"end":364.541,"text":"這個不是我的工作啊,報告委員。好啊,大家都不是你的工作,你推到經濟部,經濟部推到什麼什麼能源署,所以我們消費者繼續要當,怎麼樣,盤呢?報告委員,這個其實第一個,這個只有5億多,還有其實它是自己這個發電的使用,自己線路的潰損的使用,所以基本上不會影響到每個人,而且我們也對外說,其實我們目前的CPI的衝擊只有0.08%,"},{"start":366.567,"end":370.228,"text":"我只要你保證油電價格不會因此漲價60億的碳費的規模怎麼可能造成各種的漲價"},{"start":384.417,"end":411.579,"text":"我今天問你油電價格你不要給我顧左右而言他嘛沒有辦法保證就代表問題存在啊對不對什麼叫政治語言啊你還是政治語言啊你不能保證就是不能保證油電價格不能漲價最後不是虧損虧損還是我納稅人來那個來貼補你永遠都是納稅人在付款啦錯誤的能源政策造成我們納稅人一支牛線包被剝幾層皮啦好 謝謝"},{"start":415.303,"end":416.047,"text":"謝謝王鴻薇委員的發言"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:59:32 - 12:06:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時59分）謝謝主席，我請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：經濟部是誰啊？"],["主席：楊署長。"],["王委員鴻薇：產發署，好。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好，署長好。我們碳費的實施影響層面非常大，產業界非常重視，環保團體非常重視，但是可能很多消費者還不知道，其實這個碳費的徵收跟廣大的消費者也有很大的影響。我們可以看一下，經濟部曾經對不同的碳費費率有一個影響表，剛才我看到賴士葆委員也有提到，比如以300元來說，GDP會減損0.48%，而我特別注意到CPI會增加0.18%，其實我覺得這個部分恐怕也是低估了！","我們再來看第2頁。我們一再說錯誤的能源政策，它的影響層面會很大，不僅僅只是台電的虧損、不僅僅只是漲電價而已，而且它對於我們要去達成減碳也有它的難度。所以原來2025減碳10%已經跳票了，必須要延後，而事實上，我們現在主要課徵的都是這些排碳大戶嘛！所以部長應該清楚，在所有排碳大戶裡面占比最多的是哪一個行業？"],["彭部長啓明：電力業、能源業。"],["王委員鴻薇：電力以及燃氣業，對不對？它的占比將近六成之多。所以現在的問題是，如果我們繼續擁抱非核家園，繼續依賴不管是天然氣也好或者是用燒煤也好，這些火力發電會使得現在台電根本無法減碳，而台電無法減碳要如何去達到你的排碳目標呢？現在最主要的問題是在於，我為什麼請我們經濟部的長官來？因為事實上如果根據你們現在課徵的費率，台電和中油都是排碳大戶、都是排碳大戶！台電可以一直跟立法院要求追加預算補貼，可是事實上有很多的民營電廠不是嗎？所以我在這邊要請教經濟部的長官，請問一下，當這個碳費實施之後，能不能保證油電價格的成本可以完全控制呢？油電價格會不會因此而提高？我剛剛講，我最關心的是我們消費者，現在油電漲價，大家就已經受不了，未來碳費實施會不會轉嫁到電價、轉嫁到油價？所以可不可以保證油電價格不會因為碳費的徵收而因此提高？可不可以？"],["楊署長志清：跟委員報告，油電價格在我們經濟部裡面會由能源署跟台電、中油這邊做很詳實的評估。"],["王委員鴻薇：還在評估中？"],["楊署長志清：碳費是一個國際的趨勢，我們也會輔導這兩個單位提出自主減量計畫，不會……"],["王委員鴻薇：它如何自主減量？它把不排碳的核電廠關掉，然後要增加火力發電廠，最近不是郭國文委員在那邊大罵卓榮泰院長、在大罵經濟部嗎？說怎麼那麼多的天然氣發電廠都放在我們臺南？要彌補這個gap，當然天然氣最快，對不對？所以請問台電如何減量呢？所以我必須講，非核家園就是我們沒辦法達成排碳減量目標的最大破口，錯誤能源政策真的影響一大堆，這個其實是現在大家比較少去注視到的。未來油電價格要不要漲？請教環境部部長，你在整個的評估裡面、對產業的影響裡面，剛才你也承認電力是最大的排放量，未來油電價格要不要漲？它要被徵收碳費，他們自行吸收嗎？自己減薪嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你說的數字15億是有問題的，如果按照目前台電的電力規劃，它是可以自主減量的，大概只要繳五億多左右而已。所以第一個，它跟過去能源價格上漲造成的波動基本上是完全不一樣，其實委員剛才提供的CPI數字，其實我們算出來也只有0.08%而已，所以並沒有像委員說的那麼高。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是來自於經濟部的計算。好，我最後一句話，我時間到了。所以環境部長可以保證，碳費實施之後，我們的油電價格不漲嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個不是我的工作，報告委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，都不是你的工作，你推到經濟部、經濟部推到能源署，所以消費者要怎樣？繼續要當「盤仔」被剝皮？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，其實這個只有五億多，還有，它是自己發電的使用、線路虧損的使用，所以基本上不會影響到每個人；而且我們也對外說其實對CPI的衝擊只有0.08%……"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，0.18%都低估了啦，0.18%都低估，你跟我講0.08%……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，你可以看一下這本如何去計算的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，我只要你保證油電價格不會因此漲價，一句話。"],["彭部長啓明：60億碳費的規模怎麼可能造成各種的漲價？"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在問你油電價格，你不要跟我顧左右而言他嘛！沒有辦法保證……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你這是政治語言，其實基本上，我們要從科學上的數字來看……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫政治語言？你才是政治語言啦，你不能保證就是不能保證！油電價格不能漲價，最後還不是虧損？虧損還是納稅人來貼補，永遠都是納稅人在付款！錯誤的能源政策造成我們納稅人一隻牛現在不知道被剝幾層皮，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員的發言。","接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}