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彭部長、產發署長有請請彭部長、楊署長牛煦好 部長午安"},{"start":12.797,"end":33.419,"text":"這本期今天質詢的主題叫做碳費不能變成贖罪券我們應該要讓這個政策能夠具體的導引所謂的減碳措施部長為什麼我們今天要搞出這麼多的這個制度的設計其實核心的目標是什麼?探聽下要符合跟國際接軌國際接軌對不對也就是說大家基於國際上共同的目標我們有一個減量的專約義務"},{"start":34.72,"end":59.259,"text":"對,我們所有的政策應該是要符合這樣子的一個目標,對不對?所以你包含碳費,有些人講碳稅,有些人講碳交易,其實都是完成這個減量專業義務的政策手段。部長應該不反對這樣的說法,對不對?沒錯。好,那我們就進到所謂的制度設計的地方。現在看起來我們是減量跟繳費的專業義務是可以脫鉤的嘛。也就是說考量產業實際上發展的一個狀況。你如果真的減量在實務上有些困難的時候,你可以用"},{"start":60.26,"end":86.596,"text":"講碳費的方式來做來等於說我也實踐了這樣子的一個責任嘛所以你等於除了碳費的這個收取之外你也提供了企業用自主減量然後加上優惠費率的這樣一個方式來做對不對這是我們現在的制度設計好我現在就要問這制度設計可能導致的一些問題因為本期請教一些學者專家也對業界做了一些了解那很多人其實是講啊很擔心啊就是說你這個優惠費率啊"},{"start":87.336,"end":111.798,"text":"真的會讓大家去做所謂的自主減量嗎?就是說,你現在比如說281家先做對不對?我們就以這281家為範圍就好。請問以目前的優惠機制,因為你現在有行業別的指定削減跟技術標竿指定削減對不對?請問有多少家,你們政府的估計啊,有多少家會去做行業別的指定削減?42%的。有多少家會去做國家認定的技術標竿的23%的指定削減?"},{"start":113.88,"end":141.348,"text":"哪些人會,因為他為了要繳比較低的碳費所以他願意去做自主減量措施,你們有沒有估這樣的數字?好,包委員喔,因為141家裡面是上...281家裡面141家是上述的公司對,多數的企業有提供一頁資訊報告所以我自己也很認真的去一個一個去看他的這個減碳的計畫其實我們必須說那前面20%家的公司他站的排在那裡80%他其實都是符合自主減量計畫的所以大多數"},{"start":142.428,"end":170.542,"text":"抓大放小都沒有問題的但是我必須說還是有一些落後的比較弱勢的企業這個部分我們有跟經濟部討論希望他們可以多幫忙以這20%很好部長足按去看這一點本席是肯定那但是我們希望在這一次的答詢聽到比如一個軍令狀比如說我這個制度上路之後我就確定這20%前面相對的大戶裡面你講前面20%281家在前面有三四十家對不對願意去做自主減量他們真的願意嗎你有多大的把握"},{"start":170.902,"end":189.618,"text":"他們最後真的是為了繳比較低的碳費,他們真的去做了自主減量,你有多大的把握可以講,他們都會做這個事?報告委員,這個我是一個族裔一個族裔的前20大的排碳源公司主動去跟他們說明,主動去拜訪,希望他們那這20大公司,你都主動說明過了嗎?都說過了他們直接回應說,那我們這樣做,有幾家?"},{"start":190.559,"end":202.551,"text":"幾乎都同意都同意好那你有沒有去算過再精算過我們講你說最大戶的你都處理好對不對那你剛剛講說後面對不對你有沒有去精算過你現在他們收要繳碳費對不對因為現在很多的問題是講我寧願繳碳費啊我也不願意搞自主減量啊"},{"start":206.155,"end":221.926,"text":"因為我要搞自主減量我的設備各方各面的成本加起來可能比繳碳費還高這就是我講的我擔心碳費最後變贖罪券我做不到減量我乾脆就繳錢了事然後最後我們還是沒有辦法達成國際減量的義務所以剛剛部長講前20大沒有問題後面的這些你有沒有做精算"},{"start":222.646,"end":249.031,"text":"他們哪些符合?然後差異在哪裡?有沒有做一個相關的分析報告?報告委員其實多數都是可以達得到的那我也必須說我的目標是穩健上路所以其實也給大家很多的彈性的空間包含的這個這個係數的折扣那我們也刻意設計的這個價格是有差距的當然我也必須說環保團體的意見希望能夠拉大這個差距有誘因但是我也必須考量到CPI的衝擊還有經濟部門的各種意見所以我們取的是一個折衝的一個結果出來"},{"start":250.871,"end":271.404,"text":"部長,因為這個題目很大,我長期來做追蹤,你就先從前20大開始,因為你講你都主案拜訪過,是不是請環境部整理一份資料,就是碳費跟它減量付出的成本比對,有沒有減要的報告,你的表格數字化的說法要,去證明這20大是可以做這個事的,可以嗎?不然他們的ESG報告寫的都很清楚。那你就協助會審一下也沒有關係。"},{"start":271.544,"end":272.184,"text":"你有沒有備案?"},{"start":289.037,"end":315.66,"text":"這個我希望部長因為還沒開始嘛我也不要都惡意推頂對不對但希望部長提醒一下環境部先做備案這個預備的方案就是要確保他還是要做減量這件事好最後一點點時間我問一下經濟部產發署欸輔導減量他其實需要不少資源對不對我要投入很多的資金我們剛剛都在談成本的問題沒有其他工具也可以應用比如說產創條例現在是吧是啊你經濟部有沒有足夠多而且足夠大額的政策資源去鼓勵他做減量夠不夠啊"},{"start":316.641,"end":344.8,"text":"跟委員報告,其實減碳的這件事是在112年我們就開始做了,我們那時候就協助企業從低碳化,包括呢...剛剛部長已經講了,就是經濟部也要一起來協助,因為我要的就是說,它實際上可能在碳費的支出跟它因應成本的一個對比,所以經濟部,你有提供哪些政策這個協助,哪些資源挹注也要一併寫進報告裡面嘛,這樣我們才能夠讓這個東西它順利上路的時候可以確實的導引減量,好不好?這一點還是要請環境部跟經濟部要一起來合作啦,好不好?"},{"start":346.561,"end":346.766,"text":"響鐘"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:39.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:06:40.128000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:40.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:06:41.289000+08:00","text":"彭部長、產發署長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:41.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:06:41.590000+08:00","text":"請彭部長、楊署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:41.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:06:41.710000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:41.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:06:42.671000+08:00","text":"部長午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:48.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:06:57.026000+08:00","text":"這本席今天質詢的主題叫做碳費不能變成贖罪券，我們應該要讓這個政策能夠具體的導引所謂的減碳措施。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:06:57.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:03.052000+08:00","text":"部長，為什麼我們要搞出這麼多的制度設計，其實核心的目標是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:03.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:05.254000+08:00","text":"碳定價要符合跟國際接軌。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:05.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:05.815000+08:00","text":"國際接軌，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:05.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:14.043000+08:00","text":"也就是說，大家基於國際上共同的目標，我們有一個減量的遵約義務，我們所有的政策應該是要符合這樣子的一個目標，對不對？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:14.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:23.050000+08:00","text":"所以包含碳費，以前講碳稅，有人講碳交易，其實都是完成這個減量遵約義務的政策手段，部長應該不反對這樣的說法，對不對？沒錯。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:23.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:25.972000+08:00","text":"好，那我們就進到所謂制度設計的地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:26.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:32.918000+08:00","text":"現在看起來我們減量和繳費的遵約義務是可以脫鉤的，也就是說，考量產業實際上發展的狀況。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:32.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:40.723000+08:00","text":"如果減量在實務上真的有些困難的時候，你可以用繳碳費的方式來做，等於說我也實踐了這樣子的責任。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:41.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:49.468000+08:00","text":"所以除了碳費的收取之外，等於你也提供了企業用自主減量，然後加上優惠費率這樣一個方式來做，對不對？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:49.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:51.189000+08:00","text":"這是我們現在的制度設計。沒錯。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:51.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:07:53.670000+08:00","text":"好，我現在就要問這個制度設計可能導致的一些問題。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:07:54.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:07.240000+08:00","text":"本席請教一些學者專家，也對業界做了一些了解，很多人其實很擔心，你這個優惠費率真的會讓大家去做所謂的自主減量嗎？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:07.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:18.630000+08:00","text":"現在比如說281家先做，我們就以這281家為範圍就好，請問以目前的優惠機制，因為你現在有行業別的指定削減跟技術標竿指定削減，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:18.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:24.796000+08:00","text":"請問以你們政府的估計，有多少家會去做42%行業別的指定削減？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:25.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:27.798000+08:00","text":"有多少家會去做23%國家認定技術標竿的指定削減？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:29.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:34.381000+08:00","text":"哪些人會為了要繳比較低的碳費，所以他願意去做自主減量措施？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:34.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:35.642000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有估這樣的數字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:36.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:42.184000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為281家裡面，141家是上市櫃公司。對。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:42.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:49.266000+08:00","text":"多數的企業有提供ESG報告，所以我自己也很認真地一個一個去看它的減碳計畫。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:08:49.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:08:59.869000+08:00","text":"其實我們必須說，前面20%的公司占了排碳量的80%，它其實都是符合自主減量計畫的，所以大多數抓大放小都沒有問題的。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:00.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:07.012000+08:00","text":"但是我必須說，還是有一些落後的、比較弱勢的企業，這個部分我們有跟經濟部討論，希望他們可以多幫忙……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:07.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:24.241000+08:00","text":"以這20%來看，很好，部長逐案去看，這一點本席是肯定，但是我們希望在這一次的答詢聽到一個軍令狀，比如說這個制度上路之後，我就確定這20%前面的相對大戶裡面，你講281家，前面20%有三、四十家願意去做自主減量，對不對？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:24.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:25.681000+08:00","text":"他們真的願意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:25.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:30.305000+08:00","text":"你有多大的把握，他們最後真的是為了繳比較低的碳費，他們真的去做了自主減量？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:30.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:32.407000+08:00","text":"你有多大把握可以講他們都會做這個事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:32.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:40.554000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是一個一個、逐一地針對前二十大排碳源的公司主動去跟他們說明、主動去拜訪，希望他們可以瞭解。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:41.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:42.496000+08:00","text":"這二十大公司，你都主動說明過了嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:42.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:42.876000+08:00","text":"都說過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:43.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:46.559000+08:00","text":"他們直接回應說，那我們這樣做，有幾家？幾乎。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:47.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:47.480000+08:00","text":"都同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:47.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:47.941000+08:00","text":"都同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:48.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:50.583000+08:00","text":"好，那你有沒有再精算過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:51.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:09:56.910000+08:00","text":"如果說最大戶你都有處理好，那剛剛講後面的，你有沒有去精算過他們現在要繳的碳費？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:09:57.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:13.743000+08:00","text":"現在很多問題是他們寧願繳碳費，也不願意搞自主減量，因為搞自主減量，他的設備各方各面成本加起來可能比繳碳費還高，而這就是我講的，我擔心碳費之後變成贖罪券，因為做不到減量，乾脆就繳錢了事，最後我們還是沒有辦法達成國際減量的義務。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:13.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:17.906000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛部長說前二十大沒有問題，但後面的這些，你有沒有精算過？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:18.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:22.207000+08:00","text":"他們哪些符合、差異在哪裡，有沒有做相關的分析報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:22.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:34.829000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實多數都是可以達到的，我也必須說，我的目標是穩健上路，所以我們給大家很多彈性空間，包含係數的折扣我們也刻意設計價格是有差距的。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:35.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:45.031000+08:00","text":"當然我也必須說環保團體的意見是希望能夠拉大差距，形成誘因，但是我也必須考量到CPI的衝擊，還有經濟部門的各種意見，所以我們取得的是一個折衝的結果出來。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:46.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:52.595000+08:00","text":"這樣好了，部長，因為這個題目很大，我們長期來做追蹤，你就先從前二十大開始，因為你說都逐案拜訪過了，對不對？對。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:53.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:10:58.038000+08:00","text":"請環境部整理一份資料，就是有關碳費跟減量付出的成本比對，你們有沒有一個簡要報告？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:10:58.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:03.461000+08:00","text":"你用表格或數字化說法都好，證明這二十大是可以做這個事的，可以嗎？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:04.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:06.103000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實他們的ESG報告都寫得很清楚。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:06.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:07.404000+08:00","text":"那你就協助彙整一下也沒有關係，我接受你用ESG報告的一些數字來處理。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:07.404000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:08.404000+08:00","text":"好，我們找經濟部一起進行，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:08.404000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:09.404000+08:00","text":"好，一起進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:09.404000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:10.404000+08:00","text":"最後，如果沒有辦法順利導引減量時，我希望環境部要有備案，你們還是要有因應措施，理論上他們願意做自主減量，但萬一他們不做呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:07.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:08.164000+08:00","text":"你有沒有備案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:25.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:34.385000+08:00","text":"因為還沒有開始，我也不要先做惡意推定，但希望部長、提醒環境部要先做預備方案，確保他們還是會做減量這件事。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:34.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:37.608000+08:00","text":"最後一點點時間，我請問經濟部產發署。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:38.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:41.291000+08:00","text":"輔導減量其實需要不少資源，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:41.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:43.593000+08:00","text":"要投入很多資金，像我們剛剛都在談成本的問題……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"楊署長志清","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:43.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:46.616000+08:00","text":"還有其他工具也可以運用，譬如產創條例，現在……是啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:47.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:51.480000+08:00","text":"經濟部有沒有足夠多且大的政策資源去鼓勵他們做減量？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:51.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:51.640000+08:00","text":"夠不夠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊署長志清","start":"2024-10-14T12:11:52.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:11:59.926000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實減碳這件事我們在112年就開始做了，那時候就是協助企業從低碳化，包括……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:12:00.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:12:18.298000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長已經講了，經濟部也要一起來協助，因為我要的是他實際上碳費支出跟因應成本的對比資料，所以經濟部可以提供哪些政策協助、哪些資源挹注，請一併寫進報告裡，這樣才能讓這個制度在順利上路的時候，可以確實導引減量，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:12:18.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:12:20.780000+08:00","text":"這一點還是要請環境部跟經濟部一起合作，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊署長志清","start":"2024-10-14T12:12:21.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:12:22.280000+08:00","text":"是，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-14T12:12:22.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:12:23.722857+08:00","text":"OK，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:12:24.022857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:12:26.880000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:12:27.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:12:30.322857+08:00","text":"接下來請洪申翰委員發言。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:06:36 - 12:12:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":992,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時6分）謝謝主席。彭部長、產發署長有請。"],["主席：請彭部長、楊署長。"],["彭部長啓明：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。這本席今天質詢的主題叫做碳費不能變成贖罪券，我們應該要讓這個政策能夠具體的導引所謂的減碳措施。部長，為什麼我們要搞出這麼多的制度設計，其實核心的目標是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：碳定價要符合跟國際接軌。"],["牛委員煦庭：國際接軌，對不對？也就是說，大家基於國際上共同的目標，我們有一個減量的遵約義務，我們所有的政策應該是要符合這樣子的一個目標，對不對？所以包含碳費，以前講碳稅，有人講碳交易，其實都是完成這個減量遵約義務的政策手段，部長應該不反對這樣的說法，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我們就進到所謂制度設計的地方。現在看起來我們減量和繳費的遵約義務是可以脫鉤的，也就是說，考量產業實際上發展的狀況。如果減量在實務上真的有些困難的時候，你可以用繳碳費的方式來做，等於說我也實踐了這樣子的責任。所以除了碳費的收取之外，等於你也提供了企業用自主減量，然後加上優惠費率這樣一個方式來做，對不對？這是我們現在的制度設計。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我現在就要問這個制度設計可能導致的一些問題。本席請教一些學者專家，也對業界做了一些了解，很多人其實很擔心，你這個優惠費率真的會讓大家去做所謂的自主減量嗎？現在比如說281家先做，我們就以這281家為範圍就好，請問以目前的優惠機制，因為你現在有行業別的指定削減跟技術標竿指定削減，對不對？請問以你們政府的估計，有多少家會去做42%行業別的指定削減？有多少家會去做23%國家認定技術標竿的指定削減？哪些人會為了要繳比較低的碳費，所以他願意去做自主減量措施？你們有沒有估這樣的數字？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為281家裡面，141家是上市櫃公司。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["彭部長啓明：多數的企業有提供ESG報告，所以我自己也很認真地一個一個去看它的減碳計畫。其實我們必須說，前面20%的公司占了排碳量的80%，它其實都是符合自主減量計畫的，所以大多數抓大放小都沒有問題的。但是我必須說，還是有一些落後的、比較弱勢的企業，這個部分我們有跟經濟部討論，希望他們可以多幫忙……"],["牛委員煦庭：以這20%來看，很好，部長逐案去看，這一點本席是肯定，但是我們希望在這一次的答詢聽到一個軍令狀，比如說這個制度上路之後，我就確定這20%前面的相對大戶裡面，你講281家，前面20%有三、四十家願意去做自主減量，對不對？他們真的願意嗎？你有多大的把握，他們最後真的是為了繳比較低的碳費，他們真的去做了自主減量？你有多大把握可以講他們都會做這個事？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是一個一個、逐一地針對前二十大排碳源的公司主動去跟他們說明、主動去拜訪，希望他們可以瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：這二十大公司，你都主動說明過了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：都說過了。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們直接回應說，那我們這樣做，有幾家？"],["彭部長啓明：幾乎。"],["牛委員煦庭：都同意？"],["彭部長啓明：都同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那你有沒有再精算過？如果說最大戶你都有處理好，那剛剛講後面的，你有沒有去精算過他們現在要繳的碳費？現在很多問題是他們寧願繳碳費，也不願意搞自主減量，因為搞自主減量，他的設備各方各面成本加起來可能比繳碳費還高，而這就是我講的，我擔心碳費之後變成贖罪券，因為做不到減量，乾脆就繳錢了事，最後我們還是沒有辦法達成國際減量的義務。所以剛剛部長說前二十大沒有問題，但後面的這些，你有沒有精算過？他們哪些符合、差異在哪裡，有沒有做相關的分析報告？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實多數都是可以達到的，我也必須說，我的目標是穩健上路，所以我們給大家很多彈性空間，包含係數的折扣我們也刻意設計價格是有差距的。當然我也必須說環保團體的意見是希望能夠拉大差距，形成誘因，但是我也必須考量到CPI的衝擊，還有經濟部門的各種意見，所以我們取得的是一個折衝的結果出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣好了，部長，因為這個題目很大，我們長期來做追蹤，你就先從前二十大開始，因為你說都逐案拜訪過了，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：請環境部整理一份資料，就是有關碳費跟減量付出的成本比對，你們有沒有一個簡要報告？你用表格或數字化說法都好，證明這二十大是可以做這個事的，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實他們的ESG報告都寫得很清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你就協助彙整一下也沒有關係，我接受你用ESG報告的一些數字來處理。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們找經濟部一起進行，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，一起進行。","最後，如果沒有辦法順利導引減量時，我希望環境部要有備案，你們還是要有因應措施，理論上他們願意做自主減量，但萬一他們不做呢？你有沒有備案？因為還沒有開始，我也不要先做惡意推定，但希望部長、提醒環境部要先做預備方案，確保他們還是會做減量這件事。","最後一點點時間，我請問經濟部產發署。輔導減量其實需要不少資源，對不對？要投入很多資金，像我們剛剛都在談成本的問題……"],["楊署長志清：還有其他工具也可以運用，譬如產創條例，現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！經濟部有沒有足夠多且大的政策資源去鼓勵他們做減量？夠不夠？"],["楊署長志清：跟委員報告，其實減碳這件事我們在112年就開始做了，那時候就是協助企業從低碳化，包括……"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛部長已經講了，經濟部也要一起來協助，因為我要的是他實際上碳費支出跟因應成本的對比資料，所以經濟部可以提供哪些政策協助、哪些資源挹注，請一併寫進報告裡，這樣才能讓這個制度在順利上路的時候，可以確實導引減量，好不好？這一點還是要請環境部跟經濟部一起合作，好不好？"],["楊署長志清：是，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言。","接下來請洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}