{"error":false,"id":["155447"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155447,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155447","日期":"2024-10-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-14T12:19:09+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-14T12:27:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d4cdf32868ad364b6cd094b19ea69596ba3f46e895646c91ce23de861f6e8a420fa7b4ad55c841625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.91659375,"end":5.6334687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.156593750000001,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":9.66659375,"end":10.493468750000002,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.712843750000001,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.556593750000001,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.931593750000001,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.875343750000003,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.612843750000003,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.08096875,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":35.181593750000005,"end":35.31659375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.31659375,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":35.704718750000005,"end":35.94096875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.94096875,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":35.97471875,"end":45.74534375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.243468750000005,"end":47.112218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.12909375,"end":47.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":47.14596875,"end":50.65596875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.618468750000005,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.41034375,"end":58.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":59.751593750000005,"end":64.42596875000001,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.17721875,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":65.92784375000001,"end":69.03284375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":70.41659375,"end":73.35284375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.67784375000001,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":73.48784375000001,"end":74.11221875000001,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.78284375,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":81.16596875,"end":90.04221875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.74721875,"end":88.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.80596875,"end":91.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":92.18534375,"end":93.19784375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.80971875,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.19784375,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":93.21471875,"end":93.23159375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.50534375000001,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.50096875000001,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.63471875,"end":105.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.73596875000001,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":105.97221875000001,"end":106.07346875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.00034375000001,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.12221875,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.32471875,"end":120.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.35409375,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.26909375000001,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.24346875,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.68096875,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.73971875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.87784375,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":146.53971875000002,"end":147.38346875000002,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.38346875000002,"end":152.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":152.00721875000002,"end":152.63159375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.63159375,"end":166.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":163.04346875000002,"end":163.90409375000002,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":166.30034375000002,"end":167.53221875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.07659375,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":167.81909375,"end":168.35909375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":191.64659375000002,"end":192.45659375000002,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.05159375000002,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.75096875000003,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":200.33721875,"end":200.86034375000003,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.86034375000003,"end":202.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":202.37909375,"end":203.64471875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.40846875000003,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.19721875000002,"end":206.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.68221875,"end":207.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":207.79596875000001,"end":207.89721875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.89721875,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.58471875,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.42409375000003,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":212.55471875,"end":213.11159375000003,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.48284375,"end":216.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.73971875,"end":216.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.94221875000002,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.97596875000002,"end":217.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.12784375,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.17846875,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.24596875,"end":217.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.31346875000003,"end":217.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.44846875000002,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.46534375000002,"end":217.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.54971875,"end":217.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.80284375000002,"end":229.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.11909375000002,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":219.62534375,"end":219.65909375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.50971875000002,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.43784375,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.79221875000002,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.11284375000002,"end":234.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.96846875000003,"end":242.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.57596875000002,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.18284375000002,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.60846875000001,"end":247.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.04721875,"end":247.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.63784375,"end":256.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.71346875,"end":252.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.01221875000002,"end":261.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.69471875,"end":261.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.71159375,"end":269.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.12846875,"end":267.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.25909375000003,"end":268.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.55846875000003,"end":273.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.65971875,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.85784375000003,"end":272.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.69284375,"end":279.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":278.08034375,"end":281.70846875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.20221875000004,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":287.47971875,"end":287.80034375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.80346875000004,"end":296.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.71471875000003,"end":296.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.30096875000004,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.07659375000003,"end":303.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.88221875,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":306.58221875000004,"end":311.02034375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.02471875000003,"end":311.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":312.48846875000004,"end":316.21784375000004,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.65659375,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":323.38971875000004,"end":333.88596875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.22784375000003,"end":340.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.82159375000003,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":341.29409375,"end":343.21784375000004,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.21784375000004,"end":344.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.83784375000005,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":346.60971875,"end":347.47034375000004,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.24221875,"end":358.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.04659375,"end":360.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.71284375000005,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.60909375,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.55346875000004,"end":382.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":382.58721875000003,"end":382.78971875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.78971875,"end":383.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":383.24534375,"end":385.67534375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":386.11409375000005,"end":394.09596875,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.86409375000005,"end":396.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.39096875,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":401.40284375000005,"end":404.49096875000004,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.85034375000004,"end":453.54659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.88409375000003,"end":462.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.18221875,"end":463.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":464.04284375000003,"end":467.58659375,"speaker_score":0.893},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.37159375000005,"end":485.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.76096875,"end":487.41471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.49,"end":6.651,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊瓔發言 邀請部長請彭部長楊委員好部長好 今天我們討論這個碳費開徵碳費開徵你們跟經濟部你們跟經濟部兩個 那請經濟部也上來你們兩個當說碳費開徵經濟部稱"},{"start":30.19,"end":50.003,"text":"這一個遺憾那現在你們協商的進度到底怎麼回 怎麼呢來 部長你先說吧委員我們跟經濟部我說說很好大家可能又不滿意阿說不好大家又見縫插針不見縫插針你就講實質的問題實質的面向因為經濟部遺憾怎麼會很好呢你們兩個是風馬牛不相對的阿在這個議題上面你們怎麼樣去把它融合在一起"},{"start":60.393,"end":80.328,"text":"這個其實我們是相互尊重他們的意見啦相互尊重,當他申表遺憾,你的看法呢?但是這個是碳費審議委員會共同的決議啦共同的決議,碳費審議會定的這個價錢請教,針對本席的提問當碳費開徵經濟部表遺憾,你環境部部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":81.607,"end":96.027,"text":"當然我們會希望說未來也多聽他們的意見,共同來聽產業的意見,其實我也聽了很多產業的意見。那經濟部,陳表宜和他繼續跟你溝通你現在的看法呢?"},{"start":97.128,"end":99.55,"text":"你現在的心態呢?你要不要再給環境部建議?"},{"start":118.423,"end":121.466,"text":"收費的對象是直接跟使用電力間接溫室氣體排放要達到多少以上的電力業"},{"start":143.467,"end":152.212,"text":"這個燃氣供應業以及製造業要課呢?2.5萬噸那你現在一般費率是1公噸多少錢?300塊是以300塊那你提出也就是符合減量指定目標的自主減量計畫者可以適用優惠嗎?是嗎?對對對可以適用優惠有兩個階段A、B兩岸嗎?A、B兩岸對不對?"},{"start":169.102,"end":198.112,"text":"在這樣的情況之下目前經濟部仍就認為是有困難的那政府是一體的必須要好好的去檢討那在這樣的一個情況之下本席要告訴你也就是高碳洩漏事業的單位在碳費公司當中最初可以想排放係數的一個折扣對不對這是全球各個國家都朝這個方向那請問你何時可以拍板"},{"start":198.812,"end":202.194,"text":"高碳洩漏的這個項目,何時可以排版?"},{"start":220.366,"end":233.474,"text":"我們現在在等那個主計處把產業關聯表11月要公告那因為它會是我們計算高碳洩漏風險的一個很重要的資料11月下個月主計處會出來那你們預計什麼時候會我們會跟經濟部就這個資料再去做溝通那預計什麼時候會公告因為你們一定有一個指標啊譬如說"},{"start":245.19,"end":256.482,"text":"這個鋼鐵製電業有沒有報告在裡面?有沒有?國際上現在高碳洩漏風險 經濟部有點頭鋼鐵跟水泥是各國都普遍認定是有高碳洩漏所以換句話說11月主計單會出來你們預計什麼時候可以宣布?"},{"start":262.148,"end":277.786,"text":"我們應該希望明年的上半年可以有把那個認定的準則做一個公告時間要加快你們經濟部跟環境部在這裡因為產業很緊張明年你現在說的是明年的上半年時間要加快"},{"start":278.967,"end":293.678,"text":"第一個時間要加快不要拖在明年中了好不好讓業者趕快能夠應對好不好這第一個第二個碳費開徵你的碳費藍圖你什麼時候要公佈要明確化來請教你看了這個圖第5次的會議審議會議當中你2026年到2030年你在這邊有說那你什麼時候要公佈你的碳費藍圖"},{"start":307.057,"end":322.139,"text":"這個是每兩年有碳費審議委員會會討論一次你告訴我你什麼時候要公佈這個事實上每兩年就要檢討一次它的成效你告訴我你近期什麼時候要公佈你連公佈都沒有你還講兩年之後的事情"},{"start":323.444,"end":327.828,"text":"報告委員其實這個委員都討論到最後一個階段2030年可能是1200到1800這個當中是不是一個協力的路徑協力的路徑到底你是不是承載你的2026年到2030年從300漲到1800噸這個是跟國際接軌的一個數字我請問"},{"start":344.881,"end":360.635,"text":"我們政府是不是如此你要明確地告訴民眾因為我們必須要以價自量這個概念從根源以價自量這個非常的重要如果你沒有給人家公佈我現在300我可以吸收"},{"start":361.756,"end":383.028,"text":"但是我如果到...我就不減碳我如果到1800我吸收不了我做價給消費者這怎麼辦這不是政府應該要做的所以我具體說明具體說明第一個也就是說你什麼時候可以讓碳費的藍圖明確化請你告訴我這一點非常的重要請告訴我"},{"start":383.448,"end":402.857,"text":"關委員這個其實這種制度不見得是一個國際上最好的制度所以我們承諾在4年內會推動總量管制的排放交易所以我給你功課因為時間的關係我給你功課請你要儘快你現在沒有要公佈碳費藍圖你沒有我請你要公佈我請你要公佈"},{"start":404.718,"end":425.376,"text":"上路不公布人家怎麼預定怎麼應對呢所以這個就是民間非常的憂心那拜託拜託碳費藍圖你一定要去公布我這個功課給你好不好這個功課一定要給你不是先上路再講沒有那回事的那未來產業要怎麼應對很重要所以最後一個功課給你"},{"start":427.718,"end":453.293,"text":"也就是我們台中中火市世界最高的碳排這個電廠而且我們台中也是製造業精密業發展最重要的重鎮也是都市企業排碳屬全國第三名我們的碳費是專款專用我要拜託部長在這邊你們在分配的時候一定要對台中一個公平的分配我們是全世界曾經剛剛我說過的這樣的一個背景"},{"start":454.053,"end":461.448,"text":"我們付出那麼多一定要好好的讓我們有更多的補助額專案的來作為我們檢探可以嗎"},{"start":464.416,"end":484.514,"text":"這個我們碳費審議會會來考量這個事情你一定要考量喔我一定會追蹤好不好那以上剛剛所說的拜託尤其是我們的碳費藍圖一定要公佈全世界沒有一個國家說上了再講這個是不負責任的一個態度嘛好不好一定要去將碳費藍圖要公佈給社會大眾瞭解好不好謝謝好謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:12.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.150000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.190000+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.210000+08:00","text":"楊委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.350000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:13.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:15.191000+08:00","text":"今天我們討論碳費開徵問題，碳費開徵攸關你們跟經濟部，所以請經濟部代表也上來。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:15.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:39.370000+08:00","text":"當碳費開徵時，經濟部稱遺憾。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:40.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:42.693000+08:00","text":"請問你們現在協商的進度到底怎麼了？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:45.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:45.755000+08:00","text":"部長，你先說吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:46.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:52.339000+08:00","text":"委員，我說我們跟經濟部很好，大家可能不滿意，說不好，大家又見縫插針，所以我們常常……","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:52.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:52.759000+08:00","text":"又見縫插針？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:52.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:53.740000+08:00","text":"你就講實質的問題、實質的面向。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:53.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:54.740000+08:00","text":"其實都很好，我們在一起合作……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:54.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:55.581000+08:00","text":"因為經濟部稱遺憾怎麼會很好呢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:19:56.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:19:58.983000+08:00","text":"你們兩個是風馬牛不相對的，所以在這個議題上面，你們怎麼樣去把它融合在一起？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:09.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:11.435000+08:00","text":"其實我們是相互尊重他們的意見，他們的意見我們也知道。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:12.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:12.676000+08:00","text":"相互尊重？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:13.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:14.477000+08:00","text":"當他們深表遺憾時，你的看法呢？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:15.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:21.262000+08:00","text":"但是這個是碳費審議委員會共同的決議，碳費審議會定的價錢……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:22.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:29.308000+08:00","text":"針對本席的提問：當碳費開徵，經濟部表遺憾，環境部部長的看法呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:30.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:39.479000+08:00","text":"當然我們會希望未來也多聽他們的意見，共同來聽產業的意見，其實我也聽了很多產業的意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:39.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:40.120000+08:00","text":"那經濟部呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:41.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:45.007000+08:00","text":"你們深表遺憾，他繼續跟你溝通，你現在的看法呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:46.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:46.689000+08:00","text":"你現在的心態呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊署長志清","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:46.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:47.689000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為產業面對大環境的競爭，不是每一個行業都跟AI能夠有連結，所以有一些比較辛苦的產業，我們希望國內的機制是一體適用的，所以是不是可以穩健的從低開始徵收……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:46.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:48.550000+08:00","text":"你要不要再給環境部建議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:48.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:20:54.841000+08:00","text":"現在正在討論，經濟部會不會再跟環境部好好溝通？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊署長志清","start":"2024-10-14T12:20:54.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:01.132000+08:00","text":"我們會持續地溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:01.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:07.423000+08:00","text":"還好有持續溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:07.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:35.049000+08:00","text":"我們實際來講，部長，2026年開始要繳交，收費對象是直接及使用電力間接溫室氣體排放要達到多少以上的電力業、燃氣供應業以及製造業要課呢？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:35.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:35.069000+08:00","text":"2.5萬噸。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:35.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:37.010000+08:00","text":"現在一般費率一公噸多少錢？300塊。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:38.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:39.932000+08:00","text":"提出符合減量指定目標的自主減量計畫者，可以適用優惠，是嗎？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:40.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:21:41.212000+08:00","text":"有兩個階段，A、B兩案，對不對？對。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:21:58.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:02.644000+08:00","text":"在這樣的情況之下，目前經濟部仍舊認為是有困難的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:03.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:21.330000+08:00","text":"政府是一體的，必須要好好的去檢討，在這樣的情況之下，本席要告訴你，高碳洩漏事業單位在碳費公式當中最初可以享排放係數折扣，對不對？沒錯。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:21.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:26.111000+08:00","text":"全球各個國家都朝這個方向，請問你何時可以拍板？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:26.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:27.111000+08:00","text":"你的項目何時可以拍板？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:27.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:28.111000+08:00","text":"這個行業別……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:28.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:29.111000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以給社會大眾、產業說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:29.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:30.111000+08:00","text":"何時可以拍板？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:26.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:27.092000+08:00","text":"國外都已經有了，何時可以拍板？","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:27.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:30.934000+08:00","text":"高碳洩漏部分的項目何時可以拍板？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"施次長文真","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:49.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:22:57.651000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為我們現在在等主計處11月把產業關聯表公告，因為它會是我們計算高碳洩漏風險一個很重要的資料。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:22:58.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:00.092000+08:00","text":"11月下個月主計處會出來，你們預計什麼時候會公告？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"施次長文真","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:00.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:01.213000+08:00","text":"我們會跟經濟部就這個資料再去做溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:01.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:01.873000+08:00","text":"預計什麼時候會公告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:01.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:14.971000+08:00","text":"因為你們一定有一個指標，譬如，鋼鐵冶煉業有沒有包括在裡面？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"施次長文真","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:17.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:20.597000+08:00","text":"國際上現在高碳洩漏風險……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:20.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:20.897000+08:00","text":"經濟部有點頭。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施次長文真","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:20.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:24.200000+08:00","text":"鋼鐵和水泥是各國都普遍認定具有高碳性的。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:24.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:25.462000+08:00","text":"換句話說，11月主計單位出來，你們預計什麼時候可以宣布？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"施次長文真","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:31.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:37.175000+08:00","text":"我們希望明年的上半年可以把認定的準則公告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:37.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:37.775000+08:00","text":"時間要加快。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施次長文真","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:37.775000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:39.557000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:39.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:46.766000+08:00","text":"經濟部和環境部都在這裡，因為產業界很緊張，你現在說的是明年上半年，時間要加快。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:46.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:47.967000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實大多數已經有一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:47.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:56.573000+08:00","text":"第一個，時間要加快，不要拖到明年中了，讓業者能夠趕快應對，好不好？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:56.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:57.694000+08:00","text":"這是第一個。好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:57.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:23:59.776000+08:00","text":"第二個，請教碳費開徵的碳費藍圖什麼時候要公布、要明確化？","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:23:59.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:02.678000+08:00","text":"你看看這個圖，第五次費率審議會議當中有提到2026年到2030年，你什麼時候要公布你的碳費藍圖？","quality":0.351},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:16.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:18.500000+08:00","text":"這個是每兩年由碳費審議委員會討論一次，所以明年年中……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:18.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:20.303000+08:00","text":"你告訴我，你什麼時候要公布？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:22.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:24.910000+08:00","text":"事實上，每兩年都要檢討一次它的成效。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:25.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:27.734000+08:00","text":"你告訴我，你近期什麼時候要公布？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:28.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:31.119000+08:00","text":"你連公布都沒有，你還講兩年之後的事情！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:32.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:34.946000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實委員會都討論到最後一個階段，2030年可能是1,200元到1,800元，這當中是不是一個斜率的路徑……","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:34.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:35.967000+08:00","text":"到底是不是誠如你說的，2026年到2030年從300元漲到1,800元等，是不是如此？","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:36.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:36.727000+08:00","text":"這是跟國際接軌的數字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:36.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:24:55.182000+08:00","text":"請問我們政府是不是如此？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:24:55.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:04.871000+08:00","text":"你要明確的告訴民眾，因為我們必須要有以價制量的概念，從根源以價制量，這個非常重要。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:05.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:18.600000+08:00","text":"如果你沒有公布，那麼現在300元我可以吸收，只是我就不減碳；但是如果漲到1,800元，我吸收不了就做價給消費者，怎麼辦？","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:18.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:19.881000+08:00","text":"這不是政府該做的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:20.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:28.866000+08:00","text":"所以我具體說明，第一個，你什麼時候可以讓碳費藍圖明確化？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:29.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:32.008000+08:00","text":"請你告訴我這一點，非常重要，請告訴我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:32.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:41.512000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實這種制度不見得是國際上最好的制度，所以我們承諾在四年內會推動總量管制的排放交易，這個比較市場化。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:43.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:50.777000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我給你功課，請你要儘快，你現在沒有公布碳費藍圖，我請你要公布。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:50.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:53.718000+08:00","text":"委員，先上路……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:53.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:56.200000+08:00","text":"先上路不公布，人家怎麼預定、怎麼應對呢？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:25:56.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:25:58.462000+08:00","text":"所以民間非常憂心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:26:00.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:26:05.288000+08:00","text":"拜託，碳費藍圖一定要公布，我給你這個功課，好不好？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:26:06.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:26:09.411000+08:00","text":"這個功課一定要給你，不是先上路再講，沒有那回事！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:26:10.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:26:50.448000+08:00","text":"未來產業要怎麼應對很重要，所以最後一個功課給你，臺中中火是世界最高碳排電廠，而且臺中也是製造業、精密業發展最重要的重鎮，也是都市的企業排碳屬全國第三名，我們的碳費是專款專用，我在這邊要拜託部長，你們在分配的時候一定要對臺中公平分配，我們在全世界曾經有我剛才說過的這樣的背景，我們付出那麼多，一定要好好的讓我們有更多的補助額來專案作為減碳，可以嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:26:53.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:26:55.238000+08:00","text":"我們碳費審議會會來考量這個事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:26:55.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:26:57.520000+08:00","text":"你一定要考量，我一定會追蹤，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:26:58.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:27:08.470000+08:00","text":"以上剛才所說的，拜託，尤其是碳費藍圖一定要公布，全世界沒有一個國家是上了再講，這是不負責任的態度！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-10-14T12:27:09.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:27:13.454000+08:00","text":"一定要將碳費藍圖公布給社會大眾瞭解，好嗎？謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:27:13.954000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:27:20.811143+08:00","text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，請等一下質詢的委員稍微控制一下時間。","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:27:21.111143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:27:24.254000+08:00","text":"接下來請張啓楷委員發言。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:19:09 - 12:27:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1049,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時19分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。今天我們討論碳費開徵問題，碳費開徵攸關你們跟經濟部，所以請經濟部代表也上來。當碳費開徵時，經濟部稱遺憾。請問你們現在協商的進度到底怎麼了？部長，你先說吧！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我說我們跟經濟部很好，大家可能不滿意，說不好，大家又見縫插針，所以我們常常……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：又見縫插針？你就講實質的問題、實質的面向。"],["彭部長啓明：其實都很好，我們在一起合作……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為經濟部稱遺憾怎麼會很好呢？你們兩個是風馬牛不相對的，所以在這個議題上面，你們怎麼樣去把它融合在一起？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們是相互尊重他們的意見，他們的意見我們也知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：相互尊重？當他們深表遺憾時，你的看法呢？"],["彭部長啓明：但是這個是碳費審議委員會共同的決議，碳費審議會定的價錢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對本席的提問：當碳費開徵，經濟部表遺憾，環境部部長的看法呢？"],["彭部長啓明：當然我們會希望未來也多聽他們的意見，共同來聽產業的意見，其實我也聽了很多產業的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那經濟部呢？你們深表遺憾，他繼續跟你溝通，你現在的看法呢？你現在的心態呢？"],["楊署長志清：跟委員報告，因為產業面對大環境的競爭，不是每一個行業都跟AI能夠有連結，所以有一些比較辛苦的產業，我們希望國內的機制是一體適用的，所以是不是可以穩健的從低開始徵收……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要不要再給環境部建議？現在正在討論，經濟部會不會再跟環境部好好溝通？"],["楊署長志清：我們會持續地溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好有持續溝通。我們實際來講，部長，2026年開始要繳交，收費對象是直接及使用電力間接溫室氣體排放要達到多少以上的電力業、燃氣供應業以及製造業要課呢？"],["彭部長啓明：2.5萬噸。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在一般費率一公噸多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：300塊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：提出符合減量指定目標的自主減量計畫者，可以適用優惠，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有兩個階段，A、B兩案，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這樣的情況之下，目前經濟部仍舊認為是有困難的。政府是一體的，必須要好好的去檢討，在這樣的情況之下，本席要告訴你，高碳洩漏事業單位在碳費公式當中最初可以享排放係數折扣，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全球各個國家都朝這個方向，請問你何時可以拍板？你的項目何時可以拍板？"],["彭部長啓明：這個行業別……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候可以給社會大眾、產業說明？何時可以拍板？國外都已經有了，何時可以拍板？高碳洩漏部分的項目何時可以拍板？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，因為我們現在在等主計處11月把產業關聯表公告，因為它會是我們計算高碳洩漏風險一個很重要的資料。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：11月下個月主計處會出來，你們預計什麼時候會公告？"],["施次長文真：我們會跟經濟部就這個資料再去做溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預計什麼時候會公告？因為你們一定有一個指標，譬如，鋼鐵冶煉業有沒有包括在裡面？"],["施次長文真：國際上現在高碳洩漏風險……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部有點頭。"],["施次長文真：鋼鐵和水泥是各國都普遍認定具有高碳性的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，11月主計單位出來，你們預計什麼時候可以宣布？"],["施次長文真：我們希望明年的上半年可以把認定的準則公告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：時間要加快。"],["施次長文真：好，沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部和環境部都在這裡，因為產業界很緊張，你現在說的是明年上半年，時間要加快。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實大多數已經有一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一個，時間要加快，不要拖到明年中了，讓業者能夠趕快應對，好不好？這是第一個。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個，請教碳費開徵的碳費藍圖什麼時候要公布、要明確化？你看看這個圖，第五次費率審議會議當中有提到2026年到2030年，你什麼時候要公布你的碳費藍圖？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是每兩年由碳費審議委員會討論一次，所以明年年中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我，你什麼時候要公布？"],["彭部長啓明：事實上，每兩年都要檢討一次它的成效。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我，你近期什麼時候要公布？你連公布都沒有，你還講兩年之後的事情！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實委員會都討論到最後一個階段，2030年可能是1,200元到1,800元，這當中是不是一個斜率的路徑……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到底是不是誠如你說的，2026年到2030年從300元漲到1,800元等，是不是如此？"],["彭部長啓明：這是跟國際接軌的數字。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問我們政府是不是如此？你要明確的告訴民眾，因為我們必須要有以價制量的概念，從根源以價制量，這個非常重要。如果你沒有公布，那麼現在300元我可以吸收，只是我就不減碳；但是如果漲到1,800元，我吸收不了就做價給消費者，怎麼辦？這不是政府該做的！所以我具體說明，第一個，你什麼時候可以讓碳費藍圖明確化？請你告訴我這一點，非常重要，請告訴我。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這種制度不見得是國際上最好的制度，所以我們承諾在四年內會推動總量管制的排放交易，這個比較市場化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為時間的關係，我給你功課，請你要儘快，你現在沒有公布碳費藍圖，我請你要公布。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，先上路……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：先上路不公布，人家怎麼預定、怎麼應對呢？所以民間非常憂心。拜託，碳費藍圖一定要公布，我給你這個功課，好不好？這個功課一定要給你，不是先上路再講，沒有那回事！未來產業要怎麼應對很重要，所以最後一個功課給你，臺中中火是世界最高碳排電廠，而且臺中也是製造業、精密業發展最重要的重鎮，也是都市的企業排碳屬全國第三名，我們的碳費是專款專用，我在這邊要拜託部長，你們在分配的時候一定要對臺中公平分配，我們在全世界曾經有我剛才說過的這樣的背景，我們付出那麼多，一定要好好的讓我們有更多的補助額來專案作為減碳，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們碳費審議會會來考量這個事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你一定要考量，我一定會追蹤，好不好？以上剛才所說的，拜託，尤其是碳費藍圖一定要公布，全世界沒有一個國家是上了再講，這是不負責任的態度！一定要將碳費藍圖公布給社會大眾瞭解，好嗎？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，請等一下質詢的委員稍微控制一下時間。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}