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謝謝你陣內應該有個目標"},{"start":26.426,"end":43.826,"text":"臺碳污染一定是要降低嘛對不對我問你一個事情齁2025年啊我們的火力發電占台灣所有的發電的量75.5%你知道2023年的年底是多少嗎80應該可以接近吧很接近啦齁很接近再高一點點81.8"},{"start":49.269,"end":75.45,"text":"2005年是75.5喔我們一直在說我們要淨零碳排要盡量去推動結果推到去年底變81.8包委員這個不一樣喔排碳的跟排燃氣的這個排碳係數差了三分之一喔啊燃氣是一個過渡的一個階段啊現在過渡會太久了啦對不對不一定你的任內我不講你會當多久你任內到時候大概就算了你上來的時候污染有多少"},{"start":76.371,"end":101.768,"text":"你離開的時候,污染有沒有降下來?我剛才說的若是最近這幾年看起來在往下在往上漲嘛,對不對?這才是現在最大的問題來,我們來看一個最近通常的新聞最近有一個知名的藝人啊王建民過世了,肺腺癌嘛我們的民醫啊出來講,雖然他講一件很重要的事情他說啊以前是以核養綠,現在是什麼?用肺去養綠嗎?"},{"start":104.534,"end":133.143,"text":"現在癌症每一年多了一萬多個新的這個患者台灣現在有兩個世界第一來 我兩個世界第一因為空氣汙染造成的EGFR的突變型的肺腺癌世界第一另外一個第一是什麼EGFR的突變的比例也是世界第一這個跟空氣汙染都有非常非常大的關係我相信你從民間來大家對你有期待"},{"start":134.5,"end":161.838,"text":"大家都希望這個污染是要降低的我要提醒大家 站在人民的角度全台灣人喔每年罹患最多的癌症就是肺癌跟肺腺癌死亡最多的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌花最多錢的癌症也是所以你怎麼看民意講的還有全國的民眾講的火電你那是民間你怎麼樣讓這個火力發電可以降低"},{"start":163.609,"end":164.91,"text":"發電是我們北京全台灣污染源最嚴重的嘛 對不對"},{"start":192.641,"end":213.949,"text":"市長發電你是從排炭量來看其實我們的這種所謂的發電的污染源在某一個地方不一樣像中部有的地方大概佔兩成一成左右那到多數是所謂交通污染源會比較多當然污染有很多種不過發電這邊的火力發電一定要盡力盡量去減少那這個我們有共識我再給你看進一步的因為今天談這個"},{"start":216.6,"end":233.417,"text":"談這個議題啊 跟你要專款專用顯然 碳費的專款專用可能有關係我們看看喔 全台灣離來致死的 肺癌跟肺腺癌朋友 外島朋友是最多的 在台灣啊就是賣寮那個燃煤那個發電廠 守在地的 賣寮還有台南市 叫齊凱的故鄉 嘉義關"},{"start":239.915,"end":253.186,"text":"剛在講你要降低這個污染的同時那如果因為污染你沒有做好那你現在又要收碳費嘛 對不對你碳費專款專用碳費裡面有沒有一部分的專款專用是會去補助人民的健康去預防他得到癌症"},{"start":254.178,"end":281.053,"text":"報告委員,這個碳費是為了要減碳的那減碳跟減空污,空污有一個空污費也在處理,已經有早就有一個空污費那其實這個是比較跟空污費比較有關聯性,那我們是減碳為主那碳跟空污這是不一樣有關聯性的東西那如果因為政府的錯誤政策,所以你說了人民的這個碳費那我的健康受影響,所以這筆費用收進來不會到去在幫這些病患上面,不會有?"},{"start":282.333,"end":304.532,"text":"這個是屬於空污費,因為空污會造成這個可能的各種的因素,但是我也必須跟委員說,造成這個癌症的這個原因有很多種,空污只是其中的一項。好,那除了健康之外,另外一個就是費用,我們看一下。健康醫護,你如果做不到健康醫護就是費用。那個部長你知道,這個可能問你比較不清楚,經濟部比較能夠回答。"},{"start":305.632,"end":311.414,"text":"古泥、錦泥、河山廠、一號機跟二號機幫台電賺了多少錢?時間不夠啦,我簡單講啦,300億對不對?那你今年經濟部去把合一的一號機已經停了二號機馬上五月份又要停了對不對?那你停完以後整個成本又增高啦這是不是又另外一個問題啦?市長你們有沒有想過這個問題?"},{"start":335.68,"end":335.7,"text":"市長"},{"start":364.082,"end":368.043,"text":"現在我一直在看你說這個對CPI的影響非常的小對不對那我現在是要提醒一下要注意那個蝴蝶效應"},{"start":393.63,"end":412.353,"text":"我用台鐵來做比擬給你聽啦對台鐵因為電價漲了之後電價漲了之後雖然它幅度漲價不多喔明年才增加2.228億你們在講說什麼什麼那些電價那些不影響可是它就影響到台鐵馬上就要漲人民的票價了這整個物價就有衝擊了"},{"start":413.194,"end":431.073,"text":"報告委員這個其實我一直針對某些的建商特別是大佬他一直喊說會漲5到10%我們一直強力的去跟那個房仲業者去談這個事情所以我也找了很多的業者談他們也告訴我沒有那麼多所以也在這個機會請所有的媒體對外說不要再用這種擴大的效益造成蝴蝶效應"},{"start":431.633,"end":431.933,"text":"謝謝張啓楷委員的發言"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:24 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12:34:54","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時27分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：彭部長好。你是內閣裡面大家對你相當有期待的。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你任內應該要有個目標，排碳污染一定是要降低，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我問你一個數字，2005年我們的火力發電占臺灣所有的發電量75.5%，你知道今（2023）年年底是多少嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：80%，應該接近80%。"],["張委員啓楷：很接近，再高一點點81.8%。2005年是75.5%，我們一直在說淨零碳排要儘量去推動，結果推到去年底變81.8%。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個不一樣，排碳的和排燃氣的排碳係數差了三分之一，燃氣是一個過渡的階段。"],["張委員啓楷：現在過渡會不會太久？部長，我不曉得你會當多久，你任內到時候大家會算，你上來的時候污染有多少，你離開的時候污染有沒有降下來。我剛才說過，最近這幾年看起來是在往上漲，這才是現在最大的問題。我們來看一個最近最大的新聞，最近有一個知名藝人汪建民因為肺腺癌過世了，名醫蘇一峰出來說了一件很重要的事情，他說以前是以核養綠，現在是用肺去養綠嗎？現在癌症每一年多了一萬多個新的患者。臺灣現在有兩個世界第一，因為空氣污染造成的EGFR突變型的肺腺癌，世界第一；另外一個第一是什麼？EGFR的突變比例也是世界第一，這個跟空氣污染都有非常非常大的關係。你從民間來，大家對你有期待，大家都希望污染是要降低的。我要再提醒大家，站在人民的角度，全臺灣人每年罹患最多的癌症就是肺癌和肺腺癌，死亡最多的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌，花最多錢的癌症也是它們，所以你怎麼看名醫講的，還有全國的民眾講的？部長，你來自民間，你怎麼樣讓這個火力發電可以降低，讓污染可以降低？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，燃煤是污染比較多，燃氣污染少很多，當然排碳係數兩個是不一樣，排碳跟污染是不一樣的，它們有關聯性，但不是完全對等的關係；第二個，我非常贊同空氣污染的來源有很多種，所以我們環境部會用各種的方式，其實不是只有發電，還有各種交通的污染源、生活的污染源都要一起減。"],["張委員啓楷：發電是目前全臺灣污染源最嚴重的嘛，對不對？所以至少發電……"],["彭部長啓明：不是！你是從排碳量來看，其實我們所謂的發電污染源在某一個地方不一樣，像中部有的地方大概占兩成、一成左右，多數是屬於交通污染源會比較多。"],["張委員啓楷：對，當然污染源有很多種，不過發電這邊的火力發電，一定要儘量去減少嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["張委員啓楷：這個我們有共識嘛。我再給你看進一步的資料，因為今天在談這個議題，顯然跟碳費的專款專用可能有關係。我們來看一下，全臺灣罹癌致死的肺癌跟肺腺癌在外島澎湖是最多的，在臺灣就是燃煤發電廠所在地的麥寮，還有臺南市跟啓楷的故鄉──嘉義縣，剛剛在講你要降低污染的同時，如果因為污染你沒有做好，現在你又要收碳費，對不對？碳費是專款專用，碳費裡面有沒有一部分的專款專用是會去補助人民的健康、去預防他得到癌症？"],["彭部長啓明：這個碳費是為了要減碳的，減碳跟減空污不一樣，空污有一個空污費也在處理了。"],["張委員啓楷：空污費另外會有，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：早就已經有一個空污費，其實這個跟空污費是比較有關聯性，我們是減碳為主，碳跟空污是不一樣，但有關聯性的東西。"],["張委員啓楷：如果因為政府的錯誤政策，當收了人民的這個碳費，但我的健康受影響，所以這筆費用收進來，不會用在幫這些病患上面，不會嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是屬於空污費。"],["張委員啓楷：空污費會有？"],["彭部長啓明：空污會造成可能的各種因素，但是我必須跟委員說，造成癌症的原因有很多種，空污只是其中的一項。"],["張委員啓楷：好，除了健康之外，另外一個就是費用，我們看一下，如果你做得不好，在健康以外就是費用。部長，這個可能問你比較不清楚，經濟部比較能夠回答。去年一整年，核三廠一號機跟二號機幫台電賺了多少錢？時間不夠，我簡單講，300億對不對？今年經濟部把核一的一號機已經停了，二號機馬上5月份又要停了，對不對？在停完以後，整個成本又增高啦！這是不是又是另外一個問題？次長，你們有沒有想過這個問題？剛才在講燃煤跟燃天然氣已經讓人民的健康受影響了，第二個，你把核電改成天然氣跟燃煤之後，一方面費用也增加很多啊！去年的那300億你不想賺了，是不是？你全部改成天然氣跟燃煤，讓發電成本增加，又漲我們人民的電價啦！次長，有想過這個問題嗎？"],["主席：他是署長。"],["楊署長志清：我是產發署署長。"],["張委員啓楷：是署長喔！不好意思，那今天台電有來嗎？"],["主席：沒有、沒有，經濟部……"],["楊署長志清：今天台電是副總。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，因為時間到了，我不要影響到其他的同仁，回去跟經濟部部長講清楚這件事情。我最後問一下部長，這幾天我一直在看，你說這個對CPI的影響非常地小，對不對？我現在再提醒一下，要注意蝴蝶效應，我用臺鐵來做比擬給你聽。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["張委員啓楷：臺鐵因為電價漲了之後，雖然它的漲價幅度不多喔！明年才增加2.28億，你們一直在講什麼電價不影響，可是它就影響到臺鐵，馬上就要漲人民的票價了，對整個物價就有衝擊了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我一直針對某些建商，特別是大老，他一直喊會漲5%到10%，我們一直強力去跟房仲業者談這件事情，我也找了很多的業者談，他們也告訴我沒有那麼多，所以在這個機會也請所有的媒體對外說，不要再用這種擴大的效應造成蝴蝶效應。"],["張委員啓楷：這就是我現在要跟你對話的啦！你一直在講沒有那麼嚴重，我現在是跟你講，到底會不會像撞球一樣或者蝴蝶效應，撞出來更大的影響，這個你要注意，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：會、會！謝謝，我們一起努力。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同對話、共同解決問題，好不好？謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的發言，接下來請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}