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方式先行都是先低開始啦所以我們先走一步嘛我不反對從低開始可是我就要講下一個問題因為在到達我們2030年省立會建議是多少錢"},{"start":258.866,"end":272.249,"text":"一千二到一千五一千二到一千五嘛我這邊為什麼又寫這資料是一千八哦一千八一千八不好意思我想說是我錯還是你錯好那請問你現在已經是2024年對不對你2026年開徵然後一開始又我們剛剛講的就是我們環團所擔心的你那個起點那麼低的狀況那從2026年算到2023年剩幾年啦2030年六年"},{"start":286.15,"end":308.72,"text":"我想2026年,四年而已啦。四年而已你可以在這麼短的時間內從300到1800元嗎?那個是建議啦,但是我也必須說國際的探定價有一定的這個規模。所以人家說你打假球也不能說是說假的。你現在跟我講只有那只是建議,意思是說你其實也沒打算做啦。"},{"start":310.941,"end":329.906,"text":"30年前做到1200到1800是這個意思嗎我們是希望是說讓這個碳定價制度先行然後走到總量管制的碳交易那你的審議會就不用建議一個什麼2030年1200到1800不是嗎那是審議委員會的建議嗎對啊那我要講就是說那你也是跟審議委員會的建議是基本上"},{"start":331.518,"end":358.477,"text":"這樣講啦 部長你好像感覺上啦就比較沒有那麼有自信啦就是在說沒有 我很有自信所以很有自信在2030年可以到1200到1800因為其實在5、6年後其實全世界的探定價就會起來所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做檢探這件事情好 因為時間到了齁後面的問題用書面質詢來取代但是不管怎麼樣講齁當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的可是事實上"},{"start":359.358,"end":359.538,"text":"羅智強委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:40:44.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:40:44.885000+08:00","text":"主席，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:40:44.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:40:45.225000+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:40:45.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:40:45.265000+08:00","text":"羅委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:40:51.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:05.943000+08:00","text":"部長，原訂2025年1月就要起徵的碳費，現在環境部公告是每公噸300元價格與延後到2026年開徵，這已經是最終版本了嗎？是。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:06.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:10.346000+08:00","text":"不過，委員是2025年起徵，2026年交。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:12.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:13.628000+08:00","text":"對，就是2026年交嘛。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:13.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:17.991000+08:00","text":"但是今年的費率明年5月要試申報。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:17.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:18.311000+08:00","text":"好，非常好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:18.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:28.255000+08:00","text":"反正你們的碳費，當然不是你的任內，之前也是很多部分一延再延，希望這次能夠如期開始進行，可以嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:28.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:29.736000+08:00","text":"只要委員不反對，就是如期的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:31.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:36.839000+08:00","text":"說得好，責任推到我這邊來，部長，你有擔當，我佩服你！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:38.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:41:44.986000+08:00","text":"今年4月的時候，我有向經濟部詢問未來碳費開徵之後，台電是不是受到影響？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:41:46.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:08.310000+08:00","text":"當時經濟部回答，依據氣候變遷因應法第二十八條，徵收碳費的對象包括溫室氣體之直接、間接排放源，其中生產電力之直接排放源，得檢具提供電力消費之排放量證明文件，向中央主管機關申請扣除直接排放源之排放量。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:08.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:19.202000+08:00","text":"所以電力業被徵收碳費的範疇要環境部公告收費辦法後才能夠確定，我想請教一下，現在你們已經公告了，對不對？對。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:19.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:21.003000+08:00","text":"有協助台電精算大概要多少錢嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:21.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:22.505000+08:00","text":"大概5億左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:23.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:23.985000+08:00","text":"5億左右，是不是？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:24.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:26.887000+08:00","text":"我看到一個資料寫15億，為什麼有這個落差？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:27.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:32.730000+08:00","text":"基本上，它可能是沒有要提自主減量計畫的話，可能是這樣子。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:32.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:35.091000+08:00","text":"所以它按照自主減量就可以更低嘛？對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:36.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:56.653000+08:00","text":"那麼台電發電主要供用戶使用，按照台電的說明，實際電力事業排放量為盤查登錄排放量扣除外售電力排放量，這也代表使用者付費的概念，所以最終是由電力使用者來負擔碳費成本，對不對？是。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:56.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:42:58.074000+08:00","text":"可是我就要問，如果是這樣的話，未來電費加上碳費是只有用電大戶的工業用電會有這個問題，還是一般民生用電也是要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:42:58.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:00.116000+08:00","text":"一般民生用電因為我們是規定有幾個，例如說發電業、製造業等等，所以一般家戶是沒有受到影響的。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:13.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:17.814000+08:00","text":"那不是跟你前面講的使用者付費的概念是……就是有例外啦！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:18.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:18.655000+08:00","text":"民生用電是例外？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:18.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:22.698000+08:00","text":"因為我們徵收的對象是以發電業，還有製造業為主。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:24.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:24.640000+08:00","text":"發電業、製造業為主？對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:25.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:31.866000+08:00","text":"一般的費率之外，還訂有優惠費率，就是A50跟B100兩種方案，對不對？對。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:32.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:34.509000+08:00","text":"目前原本可適用的範圍有多大？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:34.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:35.509000+08:00","text":"可適用的範圍是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:35.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:36.509000+08:00","text":"就是目前有提到鼓勵業者儘量減免，所以使用電力生產間接排放目標年排放如果削減率達到6%或直接排放製程達到一定標準，就可以適用A方案，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:43:35.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:43:38.201000+08:00","text":"我想要請教一下，因為外界認為事實上這個其實並沒有訂很明確的範圍。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:02.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:02.741000+08:00","text":"這個範圍算很明確嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:02.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:26.923000+08:00","text":"因為這樣的作法的話，基本上有人也認為這是打假球，就會讓實際上費率訂定變成看起來是適用300元，但其實只要提出一些減量計畫，就計畫而已，那就可能是在100元、50元，那高碳洩漏產業甚至可能只有10元跟20元，有沒有這個可能性？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:28.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:31.466000+08:00","text":"報告委員，穩健上路最重要的，先低後高啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:32.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:47.219000+08:00","text":"當然，我知道環保團體對這個數字的確不滿意，希望拉到跟國外一樣的水準，但是其實國外也有這樣的高碳洩漏或是整個優惠的方式，先行都是先從低開始，所以我們先走一步嘛！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:47.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:51.362000+08:00","text":"我不反對從低開始，可是我就要講下一個問題，因為到達2030年時審議會建議是多少錢？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:57.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:57.366000+08:00","text":"1,200到1,500。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:58.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:44:58.906000+08:00","text":"1,200到1,500？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:44:59.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:01.247000+08:00","text":"我這邊為什麼寫的資料是1,800？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:02.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:03.327000+08:00","text":"1,800，不好意思！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:03.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:03.787000+08:00","text":"我想是我錯還是你錯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:03.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:04.787000+08:00","text":"40元到60元美金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:03.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:09.768000+08:00","text":"請問你現在已經是2024年，2026年開徵，然後一開始又我們剛剛講的，就是環團所擔心的起點那麼低的狀況，那從2026年算到2030年剩幾年啦？6年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:09.768000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:10.768000+08:00","text":"對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:10.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:26.711000+08:00","text":"我是2026年，4年而已啦！4年。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:28.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:33.915000+08:00","text":"4年而已，你可以在這麼短的時間內從300元到1,800元嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:33.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:34.675000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那個是建議啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:35.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:39.337000+08:00","text":"但是我也必須說，國際的碳定價有一定的規模。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:40.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:42.558000+08:00","text":"所以人家說你打假球也不能說是假的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:43.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:51.882000+08:00","text":"你現在跟我講那只是建議，意思是說你其實也沒打算做，其實沒有打算2030年前做到1,200到1,800，是這個意思嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:51.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:45:56.323000+08:00","text":"我們是希望讓碳定價制度先行，然後走到總量管制的碳交易，會比較符合……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:45:56.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:02.064000+08:00","text":"那你的審議會就不用建議什麼2030年1,200到1,800，不是嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:02.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:03.845000+08:00","text":"那是審議委員會的建議嘛！對啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:04.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:09.518000+08:00","text":"我要講的就是，那你也是跟審議委員會建議，基本上這樣講啦！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:09.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:15.242000+08:00","text":"部長，你好像感覺上比較沒有那麼有自信，就是在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:15.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:16.523000+08:00","text":"沒有，我很有自信。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:16.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:19.626000+08:00","text":"所以很有自信在2030年可以到1,200到1,800？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:20.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:27.691000+08:00","text":"因為在五、六年後，其實全世界的碳定價就會起來，所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做減碳這件事情。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:28.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:31.894000+08:00","text":"好，因為時間到了，後面有問題要用書面質詢來取代。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:32.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:36.457000+08:00","text":"但是不管怎麼樣講，當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的，可是實際上，因為我想部長也知道今天收碳費跟國際上整個貿易趨勢、跟我們國際的環境趨勢有很大的關聯，所以環團很多意見我覺得也要聽進去。是。","quality":0.301},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:36.457000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:37.457000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:37.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:37.538000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅智強委員發言。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-14T12:46:38.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-14T12:46:41.180857+08:00","text":"接下來請張智倫委員發言。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:40:38 - 12:46:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1187,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時40分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，原訂2025年1月就要起徵的碳費，現在環境部公告是每公噸300元價格與延後到2026年開徵，這已經是最終版本了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。不過，委員是2025年起徵，2026年交。"],["羅委員智強：對，就是2026年交嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：但是今年的費率明年5月要試申報。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常好。反正你們的碳費，當然不是你的任內，之前也是很多部分一延再延，希望這次能夠如期開始進行，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：只要委員不反對，就是如期的。"],["羅委員智強：說得好，責任推到我這邊來，部長，你有擔當，我佩服你！今年4月的時候，我有向經濟部詢問未來碳費開徵之後，台電是不是受到影響？當時經濟部回答，依據氣候變遷因應法第二十八條，徵收碳費的對象包括溫室氣體之直接、間接排放源，其中生產電力之直接排放源，得檢具提供電力消費之排放量證明文件，向中央主管機關申請扣除直接排放源之排放量。所以電力業被徵收碳費的範疇要環境部公告收費辦法後才能夠確定，我想請教一下，現在你們已經公告了，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：有協助台電精算大概要多少錢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：大概5億左右。"],["羅委員智強：5億左右，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：我看到一個資料寫15億，為什麼有這個落差？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，它可能是沒有要提自主減量計畫的話，可能是這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：所以它按照自主減量就可以更低嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：那麼台電發電主要供用戶使用，按照台電的說明，實際電力事業排放量為盤查登錄排放量扣除外售電力排放量，這也代表使用者付費的概念，所以最終是由電力使用者來負擔碳費成本，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是我就要問，如果是這樣的話，未來電費加上碳費是只有用電大戶的工業用電會有這個問題，還是一般民生用電也是要？"],["彭部長啓明：一般民生用電因為我們是規定有幾個，例如說發電業、製造業等等，所以一般家戶是沒有受到影響的。"],["羅委員智強：那不是跟你前面講的使用者付費的概念是……就是有例外啦！民生用電是例外？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們徵收的對象是以發電業，還有製造業為主。"],["羅委員智強：發電業、製造業為主？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：一般的費率之外，還訂有優惠費率，就是A50跟B100兩種方案，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：目前原本可適用的範圍有多大？"],["彭部長啓明：可適用的範圍是？"],["羅委員智強：就是目前有提到鼓勵業者儘量減免，所以使用電力生產間接排放目標年排放如果削減率達到6%或直接排放製程達到一定標準，就可以適用A方案，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：我想要請教一下，因為外界認為事實上這個其實並沒有訂很明確的範圍。這個範圍算很明確嗎？因為這樣的作法的話，基本上有人也認為這是打假球，就會讓實際上費率訂定變成看起來是適用300元，但其實只要提出一些減量計畫，就計畫而已，那就可能是在100元、50元，那高碳洩漏產業甚至可能只有10元跟20元，有沒有這個可能性？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，穩健上路最重要的，先低後高啦！當然，我知道環保團體對這個數字的確不滿意，希望拉到跟國外一樣的水準，但是其實國外也有這樣的高碳洩漏或是整個優惠的方式，先行都是先從低開始，所以我們先走一步嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我不反對從低開始，可是我就要講下一個問題，因為到達2030年時審議會建議是多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：1,200到1,500。"],["羅委員智強：1,200到1,500？我這邊為什麼寫的資料是1,800？"],["彭部長啓明：1,800，不好意思！"],["羅委員智強：我想是我錯還是你錯？"],["彭部長啓明：40元到60元美金。"],["羅委員智強：請問你現在已經是2024年，2026年開徵，然後一開始又我們剛剛講的，就是環團所擔心的起點那麼低的狀況，那從2026年算到2030年剩幾年啦？"],["彭部長啓明：6年。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：我是2026年，4年而已啦！"],["彭部長啓明：4年。"],["羅委員智強：4年而已，你可以在這麼短的時間內從300元到1,800元嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是建議啦！但是我也必須說，國際的碳定價有一定的規模。"],["羅委員智強：所以人家說你打假球也不能說是假的！你現在跟我講那只是建議，意思是說你其實也沒打算做，其實沒有打算2030年前做到1,200到1,800，是這個意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望讓碳定價制度先行，然後走到總量管制的碳交易，會比較符合……"],["羅委員智強：那你的審議會就不用建議什麼2030年1,200到1,800，不是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那是審議委員會的建議嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我要講的就是，那你也是跟審議委員會建議，基本上這樣講啦！部長，你好像感覺上比較沒有那麼有自信，就是在……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我很有自信。"],["羅委員智強：所以很有自信在2030年可以到1,200到1,800？"],["彭部長啓明：因為在五、六年後，其實全世界的碳定價就會起來，所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做減碳這件事情。"],["羅委員智強：好，因為時間到了，後面有問題要用書面質詢來取代。但是不管怎麼樣講，當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的，可是實際上，因為我想部長也知道今天收碳費跟國際上整個貿易趨勢、跟我們國際的環境趨勢有很大的關聯，所以環團很多意見我覺得也要聽進去。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員智強：以上，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員發言。接下來請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}