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沛隊字幕"},{"start":186.165,"end":203.523,"text":"開個巧門啊 開個後門啊他的發電量不用有任何的一個碳費的一個徵收就是他反正他攔多少煤發的電攔多少氣發的電他跟所謂的碳費完全沒有相關那這樣子我們有辦法來抑制我們所謂的排碳大戶嗎"},{"start":205.9,"end":231.287,"text":"他是使用他自己的排碳在台灣台電的排碳就不會影響到我們的空汙就不會影響到我們的這個溫室效益他有辦法因為你不算他的錢你不算他的碳費他就不會影響到整個環境不可能嘛所以說其實我們就變成是我們悶在這個土地上就以為沒有收這個碳費以為就看不到"},{"start":233.267,"end":258.505,"text":"部長,我可以再請教,如果說有很多人講是說我們現在有A、B費率,然後還有說如果說完全沒有的話就是一般費率,那不管是300或是40、150,那假設他有申請了,但是實際上他沒有做這樣的一個部分,"},{"start":259.626,"end":275.282,"text":"誰能夠來去做集合我們的集合環境部我們的集合組會有一個小組來做集合我們的人力有多少我們人力現在大概是90位但是我們現在會增加人力來推動做這個事情覺得有辦法去抓因為我相信啊"},{"start":275.782,"end":293.157,"text":"一般的這個企業如果說這樣看出來有300、有50、有100可以來申請那可能大家都會希望申請是最低的那我們之後我們的集合要這怎麼做因為我們看到現在公平會有一個新聞是說如果票率最重罰2500萬"},{"start":296.72,"end":308.409,"text":"表率你最終罰2500萬但是公平會也好或是環境部也好環境部的罰單會有多少他要補繳這個碳費他只是補繳所以如果沒抓到他就逃過他沒有任何的罰還他沒有任何的加重處分"},{"start":317.322,"end":341.941,"text":"這個碳費是一塊一塊就跟你的稅是一樣的?是!但我的意思是說,如果說他今天申請,那沒有辦法去激增到咧?我們就要回溯之前的,全部要繳回來那有沒有加重的一個機制?因為現在公平會他的新聞有提到是說漂綠嘛漂綠的概念"},{"start":344.168,"end":358.429,"text":"對,我們會依照他的,我們每年就是會去進行這個執行成果的查核那每一場都會查那按照現在的收費辦法的規定,如果他有缺的這部分一定要補繳所以我們的人力"},{"start":359.074,"end":386.776,"text":"現在這樣就變成是說人力的部分是確實剛剛部長講90位那我們預計要多少位才夠我們就依照我們當然我們依照目前的人力當然這會結合就是現在的盤茶跟這個茶宴的這個地方政府環保環保局會不會一起進來最主要是我們的部分那我們會請地方政府來透過這個協助的這個茶廠的部分一起來進行嗯哼好所以人力的規劃"},{"start":387.657,"end":388.378,"text":"最後一分鐘我給大家看一個畫面"},{"start":408.206,"end":418.498,"text":"我只要說因為本席上禮拜有收到也有公家機關我就不講哪個機關他說基層同仁真的很辛苦為什麼這樣講這個"},{"start":420.95,"end":449.419,"text":"大家傳出來說要節能減碳所以說呢有公家機關直接在辦公室裡面自製降溫工具水桶裡面裝冰塊電風扇裡面加冰塊然後再往前吹我說這他那個畫面就是一個水桶裡面放大冰塊然後電風扇吹我說不知道我以為是在廟口廟會你知道嗎好像戶外廟會那個降溫但沒想到他是我們其中真的是中華民國"},{"start":451.34,"end":465.06,"text":"現在此時此刻的公家機關在辦公室裡面那我們又對比看到說明年的部會電費又每一個部會總統府也暴增600多萬監察院暴增100多萬行政院暴增300多萬"},{"start":467.352,"end":487.692,"text":"我們真的想講是說環境部當然這可能跟還是一樣能源的一個部分但我真的講是說當我們看到上級單位冷氣該吹還是吹辦公室還是涼結果反而我們基層的第一線同仁基層的公務同仁需要用這個自製冰塊自製降溫工具我為他們感到不捨部長"},{"start":491.673,"end":491.693,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":521.344,"end":521.364,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:06:36 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13:15:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1326,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時6分）主席謝謝，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。我想每個委員都語重心長講，但我們不希望變狗吠火車，更希望政府要拿出實際的作為，真的來推動節能減碳的部分。","我先請教一下，在上禮拜這個碳費費率千呼萬喚始出來的時候，我先看到一個新聞，臺中經發局有講，因為中火是排碳大戶，換算它的排碳量來講，它預計要繳15億的碳費。後來大家又講說這個規則，其實台電──我們所謂的排碳大戶，不管是燃煤電廠、燃氣電廠等排碳大戶，它本身發出來的電其實不收碳費的。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它只有自己用才收碳費，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：是，所以他其實也做出更正。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我想請教一下，大家會說台中火力發電廠是一個最大的燃煤發電廠，本席的選區林口火力發電廠三部機組也是燃煤發電廠，上一次在同一個地點（委員會）的時候我也跟你請教過，如果環境部沒有一個強而有力的目標政策的話，沒有辦法引導或沒有辦法導正錯誤的能源政策！當國際趨勢都是減碳、2035年不再使用燃煤來發電，結果我們國家還是背道而馳，我們還是一樣火力發電，要嘛燃煤、要嘛燃氣。我想請教如果依照這樣子的公式，中火預計要繳多少的碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：大概九千多萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：九千多萬？"],["彭部長啓明：整個是台電一起繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：才九千多萬！"],["彭部長啓明：對，九千多萬、不到一億。"],["洪委員孟楷：九千多萬對比整個台電，不管現在虧損千億或者它每年發電要千億，這根本杯水車薪呀！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果他……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣的話，你根本沒有辦法有具體的方向讓台電也去思考自己是不是應該要符合國際趨勢潮流！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員，如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們還是持續要擁抱火力發電。"],["彭部長啓明：中火如果按照原來排碳量的話，大概要繳到6億；如果它很努力做減碳的話，最低、最低可以繳到一億多，所以這個就是它願意來做的一個動力。那整個台電來說，它如果完全不做任何事情，那它大概要繳到21億；如果很努力做的話，大概是5億。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實剛剛我們幾個委員都講，但我的重點在於，我們的排碳大戶、最大宗是不是能源的部分？是不是燃煤的部分？這些都是！我們一直在強調，如果你有徵碳費的話，也許大家可以去思考，大家坐下來、靜下來思考說，到底我們要的國家能源方向是什麼嗎？可是你們開宗明義已經幫台電開一個巧門、開一個後門啦！"],["彭部長啓明：它是要做減碳……"],["洪委員孟楷：它的發電量不用有任何的碳費徵收，反正它燃多少煤發的電、燃多少氣發的電跟所謂的碳費完全沒有相關，那這樣子我們有辦法抑制所謂的排碳大戶嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：它是使用它自己的排碳……"],["洪委員孟楷：難道在臺灣，台電的排碳就不會影響到我們的空污、就不會影響到我們的溫室效應？它有辦法……因為你不算它的錢、你不算它的碳費，它就不會影響到整個環境？不可能嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：但是它使用者……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以就變成我們悶在這個土地上，沒有收這個碳費就以為看不到。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，報告委員，我們其實涵蓋了54%，不是只有台電而已喔！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我再請教，有很多人講我們現在有A、B費率，還有如果是完全沒有做減碳的話，就是一般費率，不管是300或是100、50，假設它有申請了，但實際上它沒有做這樣的一個部分，誰能夠來去做稽核？我們的稽核。"],["彭部長啓明：環境部，我們氣候署會有一個小組來做稽核。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的人力有多少？"],["彭部長啓明：我們人力現在大概是90位，但是我們現在會增加人力來推動做這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：覺得有辦法去抓……因為我相信，一般企業如果說這樣看出來有300、有50、有100可以來申請，那可能大家都會希望申請是最低的。"],["彭部長啓明：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那我們之後的稽核要怎麼做？因為我們看到現在公平會有一個新聞是說，如果「漂綠」最重罰2,500萬，對不對？「漂綠」最重罰2,500萬，但是公平會也好，或是環境部也好，環境部的罰單會有多少？"],["彭部長啓明：它要補繳這個碳費，它要補繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：它只是補繳？"],["彭部長啓明：補繳碳費。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以如果沒抓到，它就逃過？"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦！報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：它沒有任何的罰鍰？它沒有任何的加重處分？"],["彭部長啓明：這個碳費是一塊、一塊，就跟你的稅是一樣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但我的意思是……對，沒有錯，我的意思是如果它今天申請優惠費率，卻沒有辦法去稽徵到呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們就要回溯之前的，全部要繳回來。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有加重的一個機制？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，我們會依照……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在公平會的新聞有提到「漂綠」嘛？「漂綠」的概念……"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣的東西。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["蔡署長玲儀：對，我們會依照它的……我們每年會去進行執行成果的查核，每一廠都會查，按照現在收費辦法的規定，如果它有缺的，這部分一定要補繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在這樣就變成人力的部分？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實，剛剛部長有講90位，我們預計要多少位才夠？"],["蔡署長玲儀：依照目前的人力，當然這會結合現在的盤查跟查驗的……"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府環保局會不會一起進來？"],["蔡署長玲儀：最主要是我們的部分，我們會請地方政府來協助查廠的部分一起來進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以人力的規劃？"],["蔡署長玲儀：有，我們正在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，之後再給本席一個書面資料，好不好？這位是？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我是氣候變遷署署長。"],["彭部長啓明：氣候署署長。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長？好，署長手受傷？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：早日康復。"],["蔡署長玲儀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後1分鐘，我給大家看一個畫面，有照片嗎？沒有照片？沒關係，我只是要說，本席上禮拜有收到，也有公家機關，我就不講哪個機關，他說基層同仁真的很辛苦，為什麼這樣講？大家傳出來說要節能減碳，所以有公家機關直接在辦公室裡面自製降溫工具，水桶裡面裝冰塊，電風扇裡面加冰塊，然後再往前吹。我說真的，它那個畫面就是一個水桶裡面放大冰塊，然後電風扇吹，我說不知道的人還以為是在廟口廟會，你知道嗎？好像戶外廟會那個降溫，但沒想到它是我們其中，真的是中華民國現在此時此刻的公家機關，在辦公室裡面。","我們又對比看到明年部會的電費、每一個部會，總統府也暴增六百多萬、監察院暴增一百多萬、行政院暴增三百多萬。我們真的想講的是環境部，當然這可能還是一樣能源的部分，但當我們看到上級單位冷氣該吹還是吹，辦公室還是涼，結果反而基層的第一線同仁、基層的公務同仁需要用自製冰塊自製降溫工具。我為他們感到不捨！","部長，節能減碳或是要取碳費，我覺得就是要玩真的，因為2050馬上就到，尤其是上一次我跟你質詢的時候我也講了，當2025你說的10%現在達不到，2030本來說要25%正負1，不知道，結果又喊出2032年40%目標的時候，要怎麼做到才是重點……"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在正在努力、正在規劃……"],["洪委員孟楷：數字很漂亮，但是怎麼做、實際做、真的能夠做這才是重點，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","牛煦庭","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","廖先翔","羅智強","張智倫","林淑芬","洪孟楷","楊曜","黃健豪","賴惠員","陳瑩","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}