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主委長好 我想說在財政這個領域做質詢一定要談到財政收支劃分法那因為在今年6月19號的時候 剛才李德佛委員也問到了我們財政委員會其實有通過一個臨時提案就是要求財政部在這個會期開議前的時候把院版的財政收支劃分法提出來可是財政部沒有提出來 院長知道這個事情嘛 對不對"},{"start":34.98,"end":59.058,"text":"你知道嗎?所以這個部分是因為那個財政部沒有能力提出來還是行政院讓他們不要提出來?是,跟委員報告在6月19號的時候財政委員會的一個這樣的一個決議那要求財政部在這次開議之前提出修法版本那我們在當時的討論的時候也明白的說明這個部分"},{"start":59.718,"end":87.668,"text":"部長因為從上個會期的時候上個會期的召委他就開過了公聽會而且也都質詢過了那到現在因為25年都沒有改我覺得剛剛院長特別提到說現在的版本是你們覺得執行起來最有把握的一個狀態可是我覺得這不是不提行政院版本的理由我提一個目前我覺得"},{"start":88.928,"end":116.559,"text":"目前整個財化法非常不合理的地方我以新竹市為例來說新竹市這邊的情況的時候部長、院長我們以去年整個創收的一個情況新竹市這邊的創收金額是2968億全國第三那麼人均的一個創收人均的創收是65萬"},{"start":118.18,"end":129.025,"text":"每個人65萬每個人65萬那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候可是我們如果單純所得稅這個部分全國一兆8346億當中新竹市的貢獻度達到3067億佔16.7%這是所得稅的部分那整個統籌分配的時候去年的狀態是4227億"},{"start":146.152,"end":152.741,"text":"新竹市只分配到了63.5億只拿到了統籌分配款裡面的1.5%"},{"start":155.647,"end":183.646,"text":"顯然新竹市創造了一個很高的一個貢獻度可是分配到的非常的少那我們再往下看我們看一下整個110年各縣市統籌分配稅款一般補助的分配表的部分因為剛剛院長提到了你跟地方配合的很好而且也給地方很多的一個支援地方要發展你都支持我給你看一下很具體的一個數字新竹市"},{"start":184.887,"end":208.253,"text":"人均創收65萬,然後佔據整個普通的統籌分配稅款下來的時候只佔了1.5%,非常的低,只有69億。那麼一般性補助款,你也提到一般性補助款,新竹市也很低,新竹市只有30億,而且只比金門、馬祖高。"},{"start":209.847,"end":232.319,"text":"比澎湖都低,這是一般性補助款。 從統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款加起來的時候,新竹市一年就100億。 跟它的上角的稅收貢獻度來說的時候只有3.37%,顯然非常的低啊。 院長你看到這樣的數字你不會覺得說對整個新竹市這邊的一個狀態覺得應該要有所調整嗎?"},{"start":236.063,"end":256.866,"text":"跟委員報告您提到這個就是一個水平分配的一個機制因為目前分配就是水平分配水平分配在縣市之間的一個分配因為現在的分配機制是直轄市先分配到61%縣市24%再來鄉鎮所以這個部分我們目前在調整這個是為什麼希望財政部能夠提出院版的機制"},{"start":258.328,"end":264.19,"text":"前副院長鄭文燦到新竹市來開了一個支票,說要針對竹竹苗的部分給高中職闊校增班的計畫,到現在沒有引中。然後後來國發會沒有做,推到了"},{"start":287.498,"end":311.331,"text":"教育部去推的時候,教育部推的時候,我們現在地方根本沒有這樣的預算去配合。然後我再講一個狀態,針對我們目前整個的一個賴清德總統提出來的桃竹苗大細股計畫,說要把大新竹輕軌納入。大新竹輕軌納入的時候,院長,新竹市、新竹縣政府負擔不起這樣的財務狀態。"},{"start":313.865,"end":313.885,"text":"鄭正鈐議員"},{"start":345.392,"end":348.147,"text":"發展所需要的一個資源。 難道這樣子有錯嗎?"},{"start":348.147,"end":348.167,"text":"院長。"},{"start":350.136,"end":377.211,"text":"三件事情跟委員報告交通的部分我已經再度請陳士凱部長能夠對新竹包括高速公路那一段的塞車狀況要及時提出一個可檢討的方式出來我希望委員再給我們一點時間那個桃竹苗大細股現在已經進入到一個相當成熟的階段但是還沒有到最後的定案在這個過程當中我們還是跟地方多多的溝通可以改變納進或者是調整各種的內容這是一個另外"},{"start":377.731,"end":400.951,"text":"你剛剛提到的,委員提到這個高中增班的機會,我知道過去是因為竹科的增加,國中小的增加,現在到了高中時代必須增加,我們有在討論,不是完全沒有在討論。 是,院長,討論對民眾來講的時候,不是解決問題啊,討論這規劃本來就是行政部門必須要去做的事情。 是,討論之後就會實際的規劃,報告可行性。 我接下來,我還會繼續再"},{"start":404.093,"end":421.772,"text":"交通委員會我還會再繼續跟你問交通相關的問題你剛剛提到了一個高速公路就是舞陽高架延伸到苗栗這一段這個部分只是一小部分解決高速公路問題跟整個科學園區周邊的狀態其實還是沒有辦法解決所以大氣鼓計畫裡面的"},{"start":424.929,"end":447.569,"text":"大新竹輕軌我們其實我會再跟你來討論這個部分這個部分完全反映出了地方政府沒有足夠的能力去做好的基礎建設所以在科學人區工作的人目前17萬的工作人口他們每天塞車花掉這麼多的一個成本你覺得這是他們貢獻了這麼多稅收出來應得的一個狀態嗎?"},{"start":447.569,"end":447.589,"text":"院長"},{"start":449.927,"end":475.861,"text":"沒有,我們是在均衡臺灣的理念之下,或許我們可以用其他的時間跟委員再詳細討論一下桃園苗大矽谷這個計畫目前進展跟未來大家是不是還有更好的構想能夠來讓他調整一下。好,針對這個部分我在想說財政收支沒有真的做調整的時候新竹市永遠不會有足夠的錢去做好的一個基礎建設。我們也希望能夠像臺北市有好的捷運啊,可是新竹市一直都沒有。"},{"start":476.681,"end":477.041,"text":"委員的意見我們納入"},{"start":502.523,"end":531.477,"text":"OK 所以我這邊很主張一個點就是希望地方的所得受的貢獻度能夠納入中央在做財化考量分配時候的一個依據 院長你可以答應這個部分我們在計算有一套標準因為跟委員報告其實各個地方的財政狀況完全不同有十幾個縣市你把國稅全部他收起的國稅跟地稅都給他他都還不夠支出"},{"start":531.997,"end":555.837,"text":"部長我了解這個狀態只是我剛把那數字提出來你覺得還是合理嗎新竹市貢獻了所得稅16.7%只分配到了統籌分配款的1.5%你覺得這樣合理嗎然後新竹市又不是像台北市有那麼好的捷運有那麼好的基礎建設都沒有欸還要繼續再發展才有辦法教室不夠"},{"start":557.352,"end":564.278,"text":"所以我們才有一般型補助、計劃型補助、各種的方式來作證。我剛剛講了嘛,包括統治跟一般型補助,新竹市都是最糟糕的啊。"},{"start":587.108,"end":587.728,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":617.609,"end":627.937,"text":"李惠智表示,院長當時沒有提出復議案是因為避免引發不必要的對立,然後不忍心,於心不忍,所以才沒有提出復議。 院長你是這樣講是嗎?"},{"start":645.083,"end":670.864,"text":"這只是中間那一段話,因為我後面那一段話是我明明知道,我認為,禁法補償這個法律案是違背了憲法70條的精神跟規定,也違背了預算法。我明明知道它的合法性有問題,但是我認為我那時候提復議案會造成更大的對立,我情願想用其他的方法來解決。"},{"start":673.286,"end":693.684,"text":"行政院如果對於立法院通過的法案有覺得自愛難行之處,應依法提出,你沒有提出注意,就覺得你沒有自愛難行嘛。 既然沒有自愛難行,賴清德總統其實也在6月24號公佈了這樣的一個法。 公佈出來之後,行政院完全不甩。"},{"start":694.901,"end":717.298,"text":"然後預算送到立法院,立法院退回來之後,你們只要改一下之後再送進來,也許這事情就過去了,可是你們就硬不改。 我不曉得這個部分是人民會的問題,它不作為不依法行政,不依法編列預算,還是財政部沒有把所有的預算整合好,還是院長還是你下令?"},{"start":718.299,"end":720.141,"text":"這是一個原則問題。 我也向立法院提出過施政報告。"},{"start":733.803,"end":747.853,"text":"我們三讀通過的法案,行政院可以不編列預算,不依法行政,你說這個是你們的原則問題,那以後行政院都可以選擇性的依法行政就可以嗎?不是選擇性,報告委員,如果明年客家"},{"start":749.794,"end":765.089,"text":"這朋友來一次,軍人來一次,警察來一次,勞工來一次,都增加...如果立法院每個都有通過的時候,依法行政就是最主要的原則,民主制度當中很重要的原則就是依法行政,現在立法院..."},{"start":765.989,"end":786.708,"text":"通過這樣一個法案,行政院不做的時候還振振有詞,我覺得完全把台灣的民主制度踐踏在腳下,院長我覺得這是有問題的,而且我覺得你不去執行這樣子的一個立法,通過的一個案子的時候,我覺得你不只是在踐踏我們的原住民,我覺得你打臉,"},{"start":788.444,"end":789.986,"text":"你知道我也來自立法院"},{"start":807.302,"end":825.379,"text":"我理解啊,而且雖然說你覺得現在這個事情你還很有道理,你不依照立法院的一個通過的法案去做,你還覺得很有道理。那當初我在這裡的施政報告就毫無意義啦,我的報告是這個,現在要我增加的所有其他的預算,我的施政報告無法執行了。"},{"start":826.223,"end":827.765,"text":"我來這裡施政報告是憲法賦予我的潛力"},{"start":846.554,"end":860.5,"text":"憲法有賦予立法院立法公算審查的權利,難道不是嗎?剛剛講說憲法明定沒有提出賦予的權利,你沒有提出賦予的權利,你還在這邊說三道四,這怎麼會是合理的情況?"},{"start":862.501,"end":866.864,"text":"立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議。"},{"start":892.541,"end":892.561,"text":"謝謝鄭委員"},{"start":918.1,"end":928.933,"text":"報告院會財政組之質詢已詢答完畢,休息10分鐘,休息之後進行教育及文化組之質詢,現在休息。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:48:47+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:48:51.016000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我要請一下卓榮泰院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T09:48:51.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:48:55.032000+08:00","text":"卓院長請備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:48:55.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:48:55.212000+08:00","text":"鄭委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:48:56.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:20.412000+08:00","text":"卓院長好，我想在財政這個領域做質詢一定要談到財政收支劃分法，在今年6月19號的時候，剛剛林德福委員也問到了，我們財政委員會其實有通過一個臨時提案，就是要求財政部在這個會期開議前把院版的財政收支劃分法提出來，可是財政部沒有提出來，院長知道這個事情嘛！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:20.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:20.572000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:21.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:22.240000+08:00","text":"你知道嘛？是。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:23.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:31.867000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分是因為財政部沒有能力提出來，還是行政院讓他們不要提出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:31.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:32.867000+08:00","text":"是不是請部長說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:31.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:46.038000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，在6月19號的時候財政委員會有一個這樣的決議，要求財政部在這一次開議之前提出修法版本，那我們在當時討論的時候也明白的說明，這個部分事實上有時間性的一個困難……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:46.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:52.320000+08:00","text":"部長，因為從上個會期的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:52.320000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:53.320000+08:00","text":"因為要取得共識不是那麼容易，所以我們的報告已經提供給立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:53.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:49:57.862000+08:00","text":"上個會期的召委就開過了公聽會，而且也都質詢過了……是。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:49:58.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:50:12.447000+08:00","text":"到現在，因為25年都沒有改，剛剛院長有特別提到，現在的版本是你們覺得執行起來最有把握的一個狀態，可是我覺得這不是不提行政院版本的理由。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:50:13.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:51:29.912000+08:00","text":"我提一個目前我覺得整個財劃法非常不合理的地方，我以新竹市為例，關於新竹市這邊的情況，部長、院長，我們以去年整個創收的情況來看，新竹市的創收金額是2,968億，全國第三，人均的創收是65萬，每個人65萬，在這樣的情況之下，可是我們如果單從所得稅這個部分來看，全國1兆8,346億當中，新竹市的貢獻度達到3,067億，占16.7%，這是所得稅的部分；而整個統籌分配的部分，去年的狀態是4,227億，新竹市只分配到63.5億，只拿到了統籌分配款裡面的1.5%，顯然新竹市創造了一個很高的貢獻度，可是分配到的卻非常少。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:51:31.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:52:39.319000+08:00","text":"我們再往下看，我們看一下整個112年各縣市統籌分配稅款及一般性補助分配表的部分，因為剛剛院長有提到，你跟地方配合得很好，而且也給地方很多資源，地方要發展你都支持，我給你看一下很具體的數字，新竹市人均創收65萬，普通的統籌分配稅款下來的時候，只占了1.5%，非常的低，只有69億，而一般性補助款，你也提到一般性補助款，新竹市也很低，新竹市只有30億，而且只比金門、馬祖高，比澎湖都低，這是一般性補助款的部分，而統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款加起來，新竹市1年只有100億，跟它上繳的稅收貢獻度來說，只有占3.37%，顯然非常的低，院長，你看到這樣的數字，對於整個新竹市這邊的一個狀態，你不會覺得應該要有所調整嗎？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:52:43.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:52:48.770000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您提到這個就是一個水平分配的機制因為目前分配……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:52:48.770000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:52:49.770000+08:00","text":"理解，你們一直在講垂直分配跟水平分配的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:52:49.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:53:01.804000+08:00","text":"這是水平分配，水平分配是在縣市之間的一個分配，因為現在的分配機制是直轄市先分配到61%，縣市是24%，再來是鄉鎮，所以這個部分我們目前在調整……","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:53:01.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:53:03.686000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼希望財政部能夠提出院版，否則對新竹市來說是非常非常的不公平。是……","quality":0.486},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:53:05.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:53:39.041000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長這邊有提到，對整個地方所有的需求，你們都會支持，其實沒有，院長，今年選舉前的時候，前副院長鄭文燦到新竹市來開了一個支票，說要針對竹竹苗的部分給高中職擴校增班的計畫，到現在沒有影蹤，後來國發會沒有做，推到了教育部去推，教育部推的時候，我們地方根本沒有這樣的預算去配合。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:53:40.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:53:58.331000+08:00","text":"然後我再講一個狀態，針對目前賴清德總統提出來的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，說要把大新竹輕軌納入，大新竹輕軌納入的時候，院長，新竹市、新竹縣政府負擔不起這樣的財務狀態，光是一條紅線、藍線加起來就將近三百億，超過新竹市1年的財政總預算。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:53:58.331000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:54:37.136000+08:00","text":"過去這二十多年來，科學園區塞車是大新竹地區所有人的夢魘，這二十年來都沒有辦法解決，所以我們期待在財劃法當中能夠有所調整，讓地方能夠有足夠的財源來解決地方發展所需要的一個資源，難道這樣子有錯嗎？院長。","quality":0.217},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:54:37.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:54:51.024000+08:00","text":"三件事情跟委員報告，交通的部分，我已經再度請陳世凱部長能夠對新竹包括高速公路那一段的塞車狀況，要及時提出一個可檢討的方式出來，我希望委員再給我們一點時間。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:54:51.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:55:04.031000+08:00","text":"桃竹苗大矽谷現在已經進入到一個相當成熟的階段，但是還沒有到最後的定案，在這個過程當中，我們還是可以跟地方多多的溝通，可以改變、納進，或者是調整各種內容，這是一個。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:55:04.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:55:15.940000+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛委員提到的高中增班的計畫，我知道過去是因為竹科的國中小增加，現在到了高中必須增加，我們有在討論，不是完全沒有在討論。是。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:55:16.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:55:25.468000+08:00","text":"院長，討論對民眾來講不是解決問題，討論、規劃本來就是行政部門必須要去做的事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:55:25.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:55:26.970000+08:00","text":"是，討論之後就會實際的規劃，包括可行性、時程。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:55:27.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:55:48.192000+08:00","text":"我接下來還會到交通委員會繼續再問交通相關的問題，你剛剛提到高速公路五楊高架延伸到苗栗這一段，這個部分只是一小部分解決高速公路的問題，對於整個科學園區周邊的狀態，其實還是沒有辦法解決。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:55:48.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:55:49.192000+08:00","text":"也都在討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:55:48.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:14.589000+08:00","text":"針對大矽谷計畫裡面的大新竹輕軌，我會再跟你討論這個部分，這個部分完全反映出地方政府沒有足夠能力去做好的基礎建設，科學園區目前有17萬工作人口，他們每天塞車花掉這麼多成本，你覺得這是他們貢獻這麼多稅收出來應得的一個狀態嗎？院長。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:56:16.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:30.454000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們是在均衡臺灣的理念之下，或許我們可以用其他時間跟委員再詳細討論一下桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫目前的進展，跟未來大家是不是還有更好的構想能夠讓它調整或增加。好。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:56:30.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:40.980000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我在想財政收支沒有真的做調整的時候，新竹市永遠不會有足夠的錢去做好的基礎建設，我們也希望能夠像臺北市有好的捷運啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:56:41.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:42.841000+08:00","text":"可是新竹市一直都沒有，規劃了這麼久，連規劃案都還沒有成熟。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:56:42.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:43.841000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在在討論的分配機制裡面就包含一個基本建設的需求，因為均衡區域發展是分配財源非常重要的一個目的，以及對財政盈虛的調整，所以在分配機制上，我們一直都在討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:56:43.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:44.841000+08:00","text":"部長，所以我們希望你們提出院版，因為到目前我們看到的狀態，新竹市都是非常不公平的被對待，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:56:43.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:56:44.021000+08:00","text":"委員的意見，我們納入。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:10.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:25.871000+08:00","text":"所以我這邊很主張一個點，希望地方所得稅的貢獻度能夠納入中央在做財劃考量分配時候的一個依據，院長，你可不可以答應這個部分？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:26.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:28.272000+08:00","text":"我們的計算有一套標準。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:28.272000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:29.272000+08:00","text":"要再另外計算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:29.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:38.457000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實各個地方的財政狀況完全不同，有十幾個縣市，你把收取的國稅跟地稅都給它，它都還不夠支出，所以我們這個財劃法就是要……","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:38.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:44.942000+08:00","text":"部長，我了解這個狀態，只是我剛剛把這個數字提出來，你覺得還是合理嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:44.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:53.529000+08:00","text":"新竹市貢獻了所得稅16.7%，只分配到統籌分配款的1.5%，你覺得這樣合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:53.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:57:58.313000+08:00","text":"然後新竹市又不是像臺北市有那麼好的捷運、有那麼好的基礎建設，都沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:57:59.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:00.776000+08:00","text":"還要繼續再發展才有辦法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:00.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:02.817000+08:00","text":"是，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:02.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:02.837000+08:00","text":"就是不夠！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:02.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:03.837000+08:00","text":"沒有輕軌、沒有捷運、交通堵塞，這個部分就是現在新竹市大新竹地區大家的日常，我們希望院長這邊能夠協助解決，從財劃法這邊來做個突破，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:03.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:04.837000+08:00","text":"把地方的稅收貢獻度納入考量，好不好？院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:04.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:08.135000+08:00","text":"所以我們才有一般型補助、計畫型補助各種方式做更全面的計算。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:08.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:11.258000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講了嘛，包括統籌分配跟一般型補助，新竹市都是最糟糕的啊！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:11.258000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:15.884000+08:00","text":"地方要提出一個計畫出來，我們才能夠在這裡做合理的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:15.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:20.510000+08:00","text":"院長，針對財劃法的部分，請趕快往下走。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:20.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:25.136000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問的部分是，因為我看到財政部完全不甩財政委員會6月19號的一個臨時提案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:25.136000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:29.762000+08:00","text":"沒有不甩，我們已經把報告都提送給委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:29.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:58:34.388000+08:00","text":"我就想到目前整個預算的狀況，有關立法院把預算退回去這件事情，到目前為止，坦白說卡到了一個狀態，那就是原住民的禁伐補償問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:58:34.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:59:14.937000+08:00","text":"10月11號的時候行政院發言人李慧芝表示，院長當時沒有提出覆議案是因為避免引發不必要的對立，於心不忍，所以才沒有提出覆議，院長，你是這樣講是嗎？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:59:32.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:59:34.325000+08:00","text":"這是中間的一段話……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:59:34.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:59:35.325000+08:00","text":"有一段，因為你於心不忍嘛，對不對？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:59:34.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:59:49.778000+08:00","text":"後面還有一段話是，我明明知道，我認為禁伐補償這個法律案是違背了憲法第七十條的精神跟規定，也違背了預算法……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T09:59:49.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T09:59:50.778000+08:00","text":"院長，你如果覺得有問題，你為什麼沒有提覆議案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T09:59:50.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T09:59:57.864000+08:00","text":"我明明知道它的合法性有問題，但是我認為我那時候提覆議案會造成更大的對立，我情願用其他的方法來解決。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:00.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:44.278000+08:00","text":"好，重點是憲法本身就明定，行政院如果對於立法院通過的法案覺得有窒礙難行之處，應依法提出覆議，你沒有提出覆議就是你沒有窒礙難行，既然沒有窒礙難行，賴清德總統其實也在6月24號公布了這樣一個法，公布出來之後，行政院完全不甩，然後把預算送到立法院，立法院退回來之後，你們只要改一下之後再送進來，也許這事情就過去了，可是你們就硬是不改，我不曉得這個部分是原民會不作為、不依法行政、不依法編列預算，還是財政部沒有把所有的預算整合好，還是院長你下令？","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:45.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:45.759000+08:00","text":"這是一個原則問題，委員，我們試想一下……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:45.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:46.759000+08:00","text":"原則問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:46.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:47.759000+08:00","text":"我們試想一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:47.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:48.759000+08:00","text":"院長，什麼原則問題？如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:48.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:49.759000+08:00","text":"立法院通過的法律，行政院可以不甩、不去執行，這叫原則問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:00:45.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:00:47.121000+08:00","text":"不是不甩，我也向立法院提出過施政報告。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:00.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:11.991000+08:00","text":"我們三讀通過的法案，行政院可以不編列預算、不依法行政，你說這是你們的原則問題，那以後行政院都可以選擇性的依法行政嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:11.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:21.319000+08:00","text":"不是選擇性，報告委員，如果明年客家朋友來一次、軍人來一次、警察來一次、勞工來一次，都增加預算……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:21.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:30.567000+08:00","text":"如果立法院每個都通過，依法行政是最主要的原則，民主制度當中很重要的原則就是依法行政。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:30.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:31.567000+08:00","text":"那以後行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:30.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:34.130000+08:00","text":"現在立法院通過一個這樣的法案……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:34.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:35.130000+08:00","text":"還要不要施政報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:34.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:37.613000+08:00","text":"行政院不做還振振有詞……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:37.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:38.613000+08:00","text":"那以後行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:37.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:40.216000+08:00","text":"我覺得完全把臺灣的民主制度踐踏在腳下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:40.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:41.216000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:40.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:53.708000+08:00","text":"院長，我覺得這是有問題的，而且我覺得你不去執行這樣一個立法院通過的法案，我覺得你不只是在踐踏我們的原住民，還是在打臉賴清德總統，因為他已經把這個法律案公布了，你不只是在藐視立法院，還是打臉賴清德總統。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:53.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:55.444000+08:00","text":"對於這樣一個狀態，你還振振有詞，依法行政是這樣子做的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:01:55.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:01:56.966000+08:00","text":"委員，你知道我也來自立法院。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:14.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:16.905000+08:00","text":"我理解呀，所以你覺得現在這件事情……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:16.905000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:17.905000+08:00","text":"我怎麼會藐視立法院？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:17.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:23.210000+08:00","text":"你還很有道理，你不依照立法院通過的法案去做，你還覺得很有道理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:23.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:32.178000+08:00","text":"那當初我在這裡做的施政報告就毫無意義了，我的報告是這個，現在要我增加所有其他的預算，我的施政報告無法執行啊！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:32.178000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:33.178000+08:00","text":"怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:33.178000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:34.178000+08:00","text":"雖然你的施政報告是你的主張，可是立法院通過的法律層次非常高，行政部門必須去follow，你現在還講你的施政報告可以輾壓立法院的立法，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:33.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:02:34.745000+08:00","text":"不是碾壓，我來這裡施政報告是憲法賦予我的權力。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:02:53.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:00.917000+08:00","text":"憲法有賦予立法院立法跟預算審查的權力，難道不是嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:00.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:07.500000+08:00","text":"剛剛說憲法明定你有提出覆議的權力，你沒有提出覆議，你還在這邊說三道四，這怎麼會是合理的情況？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:09.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:13.864000+08:00","text":"憲法第七十條明文規定，立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議。","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:13.864000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:15.374412+08:00","text":"我們沒有增加啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:15.374412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:16.884824+08:00","text":"我們退回預算要你修改之後再送進來，這叫增加嗎？委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:16.884824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:18.395235+08:00","text":"院長，你的腦袋要清楚一點！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:18.395235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:19.905647+08:00","text":"連提議都不行哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:19.905647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:21.416059+08:00","text":"立法院如果是增加預算表示我們在審的過程主張增加，我們現在沒有增加，我們是退回你的預算，你要修正之後再送進來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:21.416059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:22.926471+08:00","text":"委員，我們不要在這裡動怒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:22.926471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:24.436882+08:00","text":"你現在提出來的預算當中一年增加了2,806億元……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:24.436882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:25.947294+08:00","text":"大院正要舉行朝野協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:25.947294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:27.457706+08:00","text":"我們看到了原住民的禁伐補償……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:27.457706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:28.968118+08:00","text":"我希望有一個很好的氣氛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:28.968118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:30.478529+08:00","text":"只多14億元……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:30.478529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:31.988941+08:00","text":"讓立法院能夠進行朝野協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:31.988941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:33.499353+08:00","text":"所以顯然不是行政院做不到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:33.499353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:35.009765+08:00","text":"這樣你以後的地方建設要求，我們才能跟你討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:35.009765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:36.520176+08:00","text":"而是行政院意圖要讓行政院跟立法院產生衝突，是不是這樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:36.520176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:38.030588+08:00","text":"如果繼續卡預算，我們怎麼討論未來的地方合作呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:38.030588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:39.541000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T10:03:39.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:03:39.561000+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T10:04:05.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T10:04:15.913000+08:00","text":"報告院會，財政組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘，休息之後進行教育及文化組之質詢，現在休息。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T10:04:16.413000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:04:17.555857+08:00","text":"休息（10時4分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T10:04:17.855857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T10:04:19.570143+08:00","text":"繼續開會（10時14分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:48:47 - 10:04:15","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時48分）謝謝主席，我要請一下卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：卓院長好，我想在財政這個領域做質詢一定要談到財政收支劃分法，在今年6月19號的時候，剛剛林德福委員也問到了，我們財政委員會其實有通過一個臨時提案，就是要求財政部在這個會期開議前把院版的財政收支劃分法提出來，可是財政部沒有提出來，院長知道這個事情嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你知道嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這個部分是因為財政部沒有能力提出來，還是行政院讓他們不要提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請部長說明一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，在6月19號的時候財政委員會有一個這樣的決議，要求財政部在這一次開議之前提出修法版本，那我們在當時討論的時候也明白的說明，這個部分事實上有時間性的一個困難……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，因為從上個會期的時候……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為要取得共識不是那麼容易，所以我們的報告已經提供給立法院。"],["鄭委員正鈐：上個會期的召委就開過了公聽會，而且也都質詢過了……"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：到現在，因為25年都沒有改，剛剛院長有特別提到，現在的版本是你們覺得執行起來最有把握的一個狀態，可是我覺得這不是不提行政院版本的理由。我提一個目前我覺得整個財劃法非常不合理的地方，我以新竹市為例，關於新竹市這邊的情況，部長、院長，我們以去年整個創收的情況來看，新竹市的創收金額是2,968億，全國第三，人均的創收是65萬，每個人65萬，在這樣的情況之下，可是我們如果單從所得稅這個部分來看，全國1兆8,346億當中，新竹市的貢獻度達到3,067億，占16.7%，這是所得稅的部分；而整個統籌分配的部分，去年的狀態是4,227億，新竹市只分配到63.5億，只拿到了統籌分配款裡面的1.5%，顯然新竹市創造了一個很高的貢獻度，可是分配到的卻非常少。","我們再往下看，我們看一下整個112年各縣市統籌分配稅款及一般性補助分配表的部分，因為剛剛院長有提到，你跟地方配合得很好，而且也給地方很多資源，地方要發展你都支持，我給你看一下很具體的數字，新竹市人均創收65萬，普通的統籌分配稅款下來的時候，只占了1.5%，非常的低，只有69億，而一般性補助款，你也提到一般性補助款，新竹市也很低，新竹市只有30億，而且只比金門、馬祖高，比澎湖都低，這是一般性補助款的部分，而統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款加起來，新竹市1年只有100億，跟它上繳的稅收貢獻度來說，只有占3.37%，顯然非常的低，院長，你看到這樣的數字，對於整個新竹市這邊的一個狀態，你不會覺得應該要有所調整嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您提到這個就是一個水平分配的機制因為目前分配……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，你們一直在講垂直分配跟水平分配的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：這是水平分配，水平分配是在縣市之間的一個分配，因為現在的分配機制是直轄市先分配到61%，縣市是24%，再來是鄉鎮，所以這個部分我們目前在調整……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這就是為什麼希望財政部能夠提出院版，否則對新竹市來說是非常非常的不公平。"],["莊部長翠雲：是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：剛剛院長這邊有提到，對整個地方所有的需求，你們都會支持，其實沒有，院長，今年選舉前的時候，前副院長鄭文燦到新竹市來開了一個支票，說要針對竹竹苗的部分給高中職擴校增班的計畫，到現在沒有影蹤，後來國發會沒有做，推到了教育部去推，教育部推的時候，我們地方根本沒有這樣的預算去配合。然後我再講一個狀態，針對目前賴清德總統提出來的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，說要把大新竹輕軌納入，大新竹輕軌納入的時候，院長，新竹市、新竹縣政府負擔不起這樣的財務狀態，光是一條紅線、藍線加起來就將近三百億，超過新竹市1年的財政總預算。過去這二十多年來，科學園區塞車是大新竹地區所有人的夢魘，這二十年來都沒有辦法解決，所以我們期待在財劃法當中能夠有所調整，讓地方能夠有足夠的財源來解決地方發展所需要的一個資源，難道這樣子有錯嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：三件事情跟委員報告，交通的部分，我已經再度請陳世凱部長能夠對新竹包括高速公路那一段的塞車狀況，要及時提出一個可檢討的方式出來，我希望委員再給我們一點時間。","桃竹苗大矽谷現在已經進入到一個相當成熟的階段，但是還沒有到最後的定案，在這個過程當中，我們還是可以跟地方多多的溝通，可以改變、納進，或者是調整各種內容，這是一個。另外，剛剛委員提到的高中增班的計畫，我知道過去是因為竹科的國中小增加，現在到了高中必須增加，我們有在討論，不是完全沒有在討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。院長，討論對民眾來講不是解決問題，討論、規劃本來就是行政部門必須要去做的事。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，討論之後就會實際的規劃，包括可行性、時程。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我接下來還會到交通委員會繼續再問交通相關的問題，你剛剛提到高速公路五楊高架延伸到苗栗這一段，這個部分只是一小部分解決高速公路的問題，對於整個科學園區周邊的狀態，其實還是沒有辦法解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：也都在討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對大矽谷計畫裡面的大新竹輕軌，我會再跟你討論這個部分，這個部分完全反映出地方政府沒有足夠能力去做好的基礎建設，科學園區目前有17萬工作人口，他們每天塞車花掉這麼多成本，你覺得這是他們貢獻這麼多稅收出來應得的一個狀態嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們是在均衡臺灣的理念之下，或許我們可以用其他時間跟委員再詳細討論一下桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫目前的進展，跟未來大家是不是還有更好的構想能夠讓它調整或增加。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。針對這個部分，我在想財政收支沒有真的做調整的時候，新竹市永遠不會有足夠的錢去做好的基礎建設，我們也希望能夠像臺北市有好的捷運啊！可是新竹市一直都沒有，規劃了這麼久，連規劃案都還沒有成熟。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們現在在討論的分配機制裡面就包含一個基本建設的需求，因為均衡區域發展是分配財源非常重要的一個目的，以及對財政盈虛的調整，所以在分配機制上，我們一直都在討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，所以我們希望你們提出院版，因為到目前我們看到的狀態，新竹市都是非常不公平的被對待，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意見，我們納入。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我這邊很主張一個點，希望地方所得稅的貢獻度能夠納入中央在做財劃考量分配時候的一個依據，院長，你可不可以答應這個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的計算有一套標準。"],["莊部長翠雲：要再另外計算。跟委員報告，其實各個地方的財政狀況完全不同，有十幾個縣市，你把收取的國稅跟地稅都給它，它都還不夠支出，所以我們這個財劃法就是要……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我了解這個狀態，只是我剛剛把這個數字提出來，你覺得還是合理嗎？新竹市貢獻了所得稅16.7%，只分配到統籌分配款的1.5%，你覺得這樣合理嗎？然後新竹市又不是像臺北市有那麼好的捷運、有那麼好的基礎建設，都沒有！還要繼續再發展才有辦法……"],["莊部長翠雲：是，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是不夠！沒有輕軌、沒有捷運、交通堵塞，這個部分就是現在新竹市大新竹地區大家的日常，我們希望院長這邊能夠協助解決，從財劃法這邊來做個突破，好不好？把地方的稅收貢獻度納入考量，好不好？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們才有一般型補助、計畫型補助各種方式做更全面的計算。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我剛剛講了嘛，包括統籌分配跟一般型補助，新竹市都是最糟糕的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：地方要提出一個計畫出來，我們才能夠在這裡做合理的討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，針對財劃法的部分，請趕快往下走。","接下來我要問的部分是，因為我看到財政部完全不甩財政委員會6月19號的一個臨時提案……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有不甩，我們已經把報告都提送給委員會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我就想到目前整個預算的狀況，有關立法院把預算退回去這件事情，到目前為止，坦白說卡到了一個狀態，那就是原住民的禁伐補償問題。10月11號的時候行政院發言人李慧芝表示，院長當時沒有提出覆議案是因為避免引發不必要的對立，於心不忍，所以才沒有提出覆議，院長，你是這樣講是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是中間的一段話……"],["鄭委員正鈐：有一段，因為你於心不忍嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：後面還有一段話是，我明明知道，我認為禁伐補償這個法律案是違背了憲法第七十條的精神跟規定，也違背了預算法……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你如果覺得有問題，你為什麼沒有提覆議案？"],["卓院長榮泰：我明明知道它的合法性有問題，但是我認為我那時候提覆議案會造成更大的對立，我情願用其他的方法來解決。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，重點是憲法本身就明定，行政院如果對於立法院通過的法案覺得有窒礙難行之處，應依法提出覆議，你沒有提出覆議就是你沒有窒礙難行，既然沒有窒礙難行，賴清德總統其實也在6月24號公布了這樣一個法，公布出來之後，行政院完全不甩，然後把預算送到立法院，立法院退回來之後，你們只要改一下之後再送進來，也許這事情就過去了，可是你們就硬是不改，我不曉得這個部分是原民會不作為、不依法行政、不依法編列預算，還是財政部沒有把所有的預算整合好，還是院長你下令？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個原則問題，委員，我們試想一下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：原則問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們試想一下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，什麼原則問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果……"],["鄭委員正鈐：立法院通過的法律，行政院可以不甩、不去執行，這叫原則問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不甩，我也向立法院提出過施政報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們三讀通過的法案，行政院可以不編列預算、不依法行政，你說這是你們的原則問題，那以後行政院都可以選擇性的依法行政嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是選擇性，報告委員，如果明年客家朋友來一次、軍人來一次、警察來一次、勞工來一次，都增加預算……"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果立法院每個都通過，依法行政是最主要的原則，民主制度當中很重要的原則就是依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：那以後行政院……"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在立法院通過一個這樣的法案……"],["卓院長榮泰：還要不要施政報告？"],["鄭委員正鈐：行政院不做還振振有詞……"],["卓院長榮泰：那以後行政院……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我覺得完全把臺灣的民主制度踐踏在腳下。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，我覺得這是有問題的，而且我覺得你不去執行這樣一個立法院通過的法案，我覺得你不只是在踐踏我們的原住民，還是在打臉賴清德總統，因為他已經把這個法律案公布了，你不只是在藐視立法院，還是打臉賴清德總統。對於這樣一個狀態，你還振振有詞，依法行政是這樣子做的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你知道我也來自立法院。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我理解呀，所以你覺得現在這件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：我怎麼會藐視立法院？"],["鄭委員正鈐：你還很有道理，你不依照立法院通過的法案去做，你還覺得很有道理。"],["卓院長榮泰：那當初我在這裡做的施政報告就毫無意義了，我的報告是這個，現在要我增加所有其他的預算，我的施政報告無法執行啊！怎麼辦？"],["鄭委員正鈐：雖然你的施政報告是你的主張，可是立法院通過的法律層次非常高，行政部門必須去follow，你現在還講你的施政報告可以輾壓立法院的立法，是這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是碾壓，我來這裡施政報告是憲法賦予我的權力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：憲法有賦予立法院立法跟預算審查的權力，難道不是嗎？剛剛說憲法明定你有提出覆議的權力，你沒有提出覆議，你還在這邊說三道四，這怎麼會是合理的情況？"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法第七十條明文規定，立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們沒有增加啊！我們退回預算要你修改之後再送進來，這叫增加嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你的腦袋要清楚一點！"],["卓院長榮泰：連提議都不行哦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：立法院如果是增加預算表示我們在審的過程主張增加，我們現在沒有增加，我們是退回你的預算，你要修正之後再送進來。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們不要在這裡動怒。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你現在提出來的預算當中一年增加了2,806億元……"],["卓院長榮泰：大院正要舉行朝野協商……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們看到了原住民的禁伐補償……"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望有一個很好的氣氛……"],["鄭委員正鈐：只多14億元……"],["卓院長榮泰：讓立法院能夠進行朝野協商……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以顯然不是行政院做不到……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣你以後的地方建設要求，我們才能跟你討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：而是行政院意圖要讓行政院跟立法院產生衝突，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果繼續卡預算，我們怎麼討論未來的地方合作呢？謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","報告院會，財政組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘，休息之後進行教育及文化組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時4分）","繼續開會（10時14分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}