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比如說2個月前在第5屆海峽兩岸青少年的棒球文化節聽起來都很正常的體育活動﹖"},{"start":81.26,"end":104.657,"text":"可是呢我就看到國內辦的主任宋濤利用這樣的一個體育的賽事其實他在談的都是一中原則跟九二共識說強調習近平高度的重視關心台灣的青年歡迎台灣的青年去共築這個中國夢可是我看到昨天這樣的一個軍演這個都是兩面的一個手法可是呢"},{"start":105.772,"end":132.44,"text":"這樣的一個活動體育的活動我們國內其實我們看到縣市首長去了也是強調九二共識反對台獨那比如說上個月福建有一個叫做同名村講名字稱頭就對了叫做村BA人家NBA講名字就叫做村BA籃球邀請賽就利用這個中青文化的情感跟歷史的一個交織進一步也是台南兩岸一家親這看起來很清楚的這個都是一種統戰可是這個"},{"start":134.901,"end":153.559,"text":"本院我們立委也會去拍片,然後去幫忙做這樣的一個背書。 我不曉得我們院長跟部長,你們看到的這一些中國利用體育賽事來當一個統戰的一個工具,這些資訊你們有沒有掌握?那接下來我們面對這樣的情況的話,院長你的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":158.789,"end":169.299,"text":"首先我們當然希望體育運動賽事無國界,讓全世界的好手能夠聚集一堂來互相的切磋比較,但是如果"},{"start":170.706,"end":195.503,"text":"過去到現在以來,參差太多的政治因素,連參加人的服裝、旗歌這樣都要對我們種種限制的話,那就是用一頂大帽子再讓我們穿小鞋,這樣是非常不好的。兩岸之間通常就在這種狀況底下。我實在很希望,如果這些活動真的是誠心誠意為對方著想,對方的年輕人的活動參與,那是非常非常好的。"},{"start":195.723,"end":218.741,"text":"但是通常不是這樣子,我們要有相當大的戒心。我非常贊同院長你所提到,其實哪怕是昨天中共軍演剛結束,你說兩岸之間的,你說體育、文化這些交流,我想不要涉及一些統戰,臺灣的民眾還是可以接受兩邊的這樣的一個交流,但是看到這樣子我很"},{"start":219.401,"end":219.581,"text":"民進黨執政時,運動預算"},{"start":247.455,"end":270.466,"text":"提訴你看2016年79.8億到2022年的時候130億2023年的時候137.6億到2024年超過160億那最近這個組織裡面外界都認為是要升格雖然行政院認為說那是一個全新的跟升格的概念不一樣OK但是我比較擔心的是什麼我比較擔心的是說院長"},{"start":271.306,"end":299.205,"text":"這如果從教育部內的組織或是業務都發開之後我們最擔心的是說體育的部分需要去改革新的一個運動部成立以後必須要去回應外界對整個以後整個運動界的一個一個真正的他們的一個需求那我要救教院長的就是說你去把它看我前幾天去"},{"start":300.396,"end":321.135,"text":"質詢我們人事長,我們體育部組織成立了,緣額到底要怎麼編,以目前教育部本部的緣額是567人,公務預算緣額是1540人,體育署是165。那人事長他是跟我回應就是說,體育署已有限職人員上部區去修訂了中央政府的一個機關總緣額法。"},{"start":323.359,"end":350.148,"text":"站在人事長他的一個立場他一定認為組織看有沒有辦法精簡可是站在你行政院這麼多部會裡面啊像我就看到海巡也好啊我們看到警察人員也好啊我們甚至看到我們的檢察機關也好啊法務部也好啊他們又需要很多人力了那可是我們運動部上來以後我們要必須要去增加他人力的"},{"start":351.271,"end":351.812,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":371.265,"end":392.962,"text":"教育部的體育署不是升格的問題是讓他完全全新的一個體育部所以他除了要全民運動除了要國際競技運動產業之外也會對一些弱勢的一些運動項目我們給他更好的運動空間跟環境這個都會在未來的運動部裡面產生當然人事總署他會希望說緣額精簡"},{"start":395.148,"end":402.112,"text":"所以我們都期待啦我們期待運動部成立以後啊那個整個中央的一個資源很精準的可以下到那個基層我們也可以希望運動部的成立以後"},{"start":422.912,"end":424.413,"text":"另外我要跟院長跟部長來就教就是說,"},{"start":443.187,"end":468.882,"text":"這個議題其實運動部的成立就真的是從這個議題就看得出來有它的必要教育部現在你看你們的彩券就你們管的嘛現在教育部一關彩券很怪怪的啦 人家在拔轎的啦那電競跟你們那一關其實也怪怪的啦所以你們顧一下 成立一個運動部讓它去歸屬也不是壞事我要就照院長跟部長就是說你們兩位平常你們不知道有沒有在關注運動賽事我相信都有 你們剛好買過彩券 運動彩券 運彩"},{"start":471.496,"end":473.582,"text":"我買過一次。 要一間,一組齁,幾塊你知道沒中?"},{"start":473.582,"end":474.705,"text":"你不知道,10塊,一間要10組。"},{"start":483.176,"end":501.063,"text":"這是正當的我要講的就是說我們今年在奧運裡面我們去拿到了兩金五銅總共七面獎牌那幾年前的東京奧運裡面我們更創下了兩金四銀六銅十二面獎牌最好的一個成績這個在我們的黃金計畫裡面這個經費的一個奧元來自於哪裡就是我們的運動發展基金"},{"start":507.665,"end":528.835,"text":"那這一筆經費很大一部分來自於我們的運動彩券的一個盈餘。這個運彩的一個蓬勃發展不僅推動了體育圈,也讓我們的選手有更多的資源來做一個支持。那運動彩券的收入越高,你當然投入運動發展的錢當然會越多。110年,81年多多年,你知道嗎?六百多年,沒關係你不用看,六百多年。"},{"start":533.083,"end":546.418,"text":"那到現在8月份,我只是沒掉到8月份而已,就422億了,看來今年應該算不錯。但是呢,手機不夠多,什麼原因呢?這我直接跟議長和部長跟你們說明。"},{"start":548.615,"end":567.174,"text":"我們的運採的經銷商面臨很大的業績的一個壓力。 現在第三屆,臺灣的運採新增快了一千家的經銷商。 但是呢,市場投注的風氣沒有明顯去提升。 很多經銷商,他的業績反而下滑。 為什麼你知道嗎?你給他幾年要五十萬?"},{"start":568.962,"end":569.422,"text":"一張彩券退佣6.5%"},{"start":593.141,"end":597.41,"text":"有些店家現在一張只能賺6.25的佣金可是退佣是到5%"},{"start":604.008,"end":607.451,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":634.363,"end":658.97,"text":"移住到我們整個運動發展基金裡面去,我們讓我們的國際賽事裡面,因為這筆錢培養更多的一個那麼棒的選手,可是我們在這些肢解裡面,我認為這個也是改革的一環啦。 告訴你,我都覺得怪怪的啦,這未來運動部應該去做這個,去做個好事啦。 另外一種,部長、院長你不用笑了,我那邊有很多人要拔轎,"},{"start":660.421,"end":688.43,"text":"你如果說要擲這個運彩還好,都擲什麼你知道嗎?非法的,球棒嘛,球板嘛,就是一般講的球板嘛,就是地下運彩啦。如果是真的是要運彩,我們就政府這個跟委託機關發行的就可以玩啦。可是呢為什麼大家不玩?不好玩還到去一年還6百億喔,啊如果好玩咧,啊為什麼會跟地下運彩,那所謂的球板差那麼多,不中你知道嗎?"},{"start":690.923,"end":709.001,"text":"你這樣代表你都沒在拼我多少天有在拼你知道嗎?那個為什麼會這樣你知道嗎?你像譬如說那個賠率我們現在的運財我們政府你說你委託去發行的1.5就我100塊我只能拿回50塊我賭1萬我拿回來的是5000"},{"start":710.982,"end":738.249,"text":"地下的、非法的那些球板的我一萬塊我贏了就贏九千,好會把那肝臍給落羊的,所以呢,大家都保養了這個叫做,這種叫做什麼?這種球板喔,用這樣的一個賠率的方式喔,我們政府的輸給人家有一種叫現金版的,另外一種叫做信用版的,現金版的是垃圾啊另外一種叫做信用版,我教你怎麼擲,擲地下運財啦"},{"start":740.819,"end":764.731,"text":"信用版的熱量,你需要一定的額度,你政府部長給你這個做到補訂的你的GIF,給你100萬。我來了,不用花錢來啊。啊你寶叔你要錢來啊。啊你沒錢要怎麼辦?嘿嘿,就有人來我借你錢。地下錢帳我就借你錢。啊借完又沒錢怎麼辦?有一群人,他就來給你討席啊。討席你要怎麼辦?你就招勞啊。社會案件就發生了。"},{"start":765.319,"end":773.521,"text":"所以連這個賠率我都認為,我們就已經開放這個運財了,那為什麼會這次1比1,1.5呢?"},{"start":773.521,"end":784.523,"text":"跟那個地下運財乾扁啦,沒錯?1.9都賣當1.9啊,政府也有稅收,韓院長在笑啦,你看。 他們選總統的時候我們也在爬到要死耶。"},{"start":789.983,"end":811.827,"text":"何況這個是正常運動的一個彩券,你那個退翁那個文化那個不對。 第二個你那個賠率跟那個地下的運財差的讓人家覺得你都毫無吸引力喔。 又減到尾了,讓他們在那裡猖獗,造成一大堆煮頭。 這個我看,不然你簡單給我回應一下好不好。"},{"start":814.283,"end":817.184,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個硬財 確實它這些年來這個硬財這個利潤確實協助了這個國內的運動這個蓬勃發展 那麼運動採卷這個也讓我們運動發展基金這個隱移編列這個有多了 這些年有這個收入60多億"},{"start":840.578,"end":844.379,"text":"所以我的意思是說經銷商困境我們要讓人家解決。"},{"start":861.041,"end":877.157,"text":"退佣這個比例我想我們內部在整個辦法還有這個倍率我看我們再來有一個跟業界我們既然政府委託去發行以後那個制度有弊端或有不合理我們也要改革"},{"start":879.212,"end":894.645,"text":"你已經合法認取他的一個存在啦那你為什麼讓他我佣金6.25我退佣退5%我其他我只做金水電子也不夠就變成大家一起來賭博了嘛你要賭你又輸給人家那個地下彩券"},{"start":896.817,"end":919.753,"text":"我現在是職欄的會長,拜託把我們的職欄寫進去啦,品項就多了嘛。博弈型的運彩跟彩券都必須有社會更安全的管控才可以,尤其是運彩現在比賽的公平性。那如果政府提供更安全可靠的,用這個來吸引國人來參與,但是在計算的過程當中,我們如果說"},{"start":921.014,"end":924.735,"text":"我完全沒有辦法跟這個地下的來競爭的話那我覺得運採他的功能會"},{"start":961.764,"end":961.985,"text":"主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:30:31.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:30:39.184000+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長，有請行政院卓院長及教育部鄭部長。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T14:30:39.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:30:40.845000+08:00","text":"麻煩請卓院長及鄭部長備詢。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:30:46.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:30:47.887000+08:00","text":"莊委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:30:47.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:30:48.067000+08:00","text":"院長午安。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:30:49.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:31:11.527000+08:00","text":"昨天中共又對臺灣進行了環台軍演，不過這跟以前來做比較的話，這次只有1天就結束了，好像觀光一樣，但是我看到新華社特別提到說這是對台獨分裂勢力的強力震懾，說是捍衛國家主權、維護國家統一的必要行動。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:31:12.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:31:18.996000+08:00","text":"這個聽在臺灣人的耳朵裡面，大家可能會覺得鬼才要跟它統一！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:31:19.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:31:36.612000+08:00","text":"但是老共的統戰手法除了文攻武嚇之外，也就是軍事、政治跟經濟上的壓力之外，這幾年它也透過文化跟體育活動來進行統戰，而且是軟硬兼施。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:31:37.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:32:09.816000+08:00","text":"比如2個月前的第五屆海峽兩岸青少年棒球文化節，這聽起來是很正常的體育活動，可是我看到國台辦主任宋濤利用這樣一個體育賽事所談的都是「一中原則」跟「九二共識」，強調習近平高度重視、關心臺灣的青年，歡迎臺灣青年去共築中國夢，可是看到了昨天的軍演，我覺得這個都是兩面手法。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:32:10.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:32:36.180000+08:00","text":"可是這樣的體育活動，我們看到國內的縣市首長去了也是強調「九二共識」、「反對台獨」，比如說上個月福建舉辦了一個「同名村村BA籃球邀請賽」，人家是NBA，他們就針對同名村弄了個村BA籃球邀請賽，就是利用宗親文化的感情及歷史交織，進一步也是談到兩岸一家親。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:32:36.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:32:46.566000+08:00","text":"這個看起來很清楚，都是一種統戰，可是本院立委也會去拍片、去幫忙做背書。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:32:46.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:32:56.756000+08:00","text":"我不曉得院長和部長對於這些中國利用體育賽事來當成統戰工具的資訊有沒有掌握？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:32:57.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:32:59.559000+08:00","text":"接下來我們面對這樣的情況，院長的態度是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:33:04.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:33:32.637000+08:00","text":"首先，我們當然希望體育運動賽事無國界，讓全世界的好手能夠聚集一堂來互相切磋、比較，但是從過去到現在以來穿插太多的政治因素，連參加人的服裝、旗、歌都要對我們有種種限制的話，就是扣一頂大帽子再讓我們穿小鞋，這樣是非常不好的，兩岸之間通常就是在這種狀況底下。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:33:33.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:33:45.966000+08:00","text":"我實在很希望這種活動如果是誠心誠意為對方著想，讓對方年輕人參與的活動，那是非常非常好的，但是通常都不是這樣子的，所以我們要有相當大的戒心。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:33:46.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:34:02.319000+08:00","text":"我非常贊同院長所提到的，其實哪怕是昨天中共軍演剛結束，如果兩岸之間體育文化的交流不要涉及統戰的話，臺灣的民眾還是可以接受兩邊的交流。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:34:02.319000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:34:05.401000+08:00","text":"對於院長這樣的表態，我相信都值得政府再去做進一步省思，面對體育的統戰，甚至是各種利誘，我想最主要應該是要把我們自己的體育環境打造的更好，為臺灣的運動員提供更好的空間。","quality":0.078},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:34:05.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:34:44.700000+08:00","text":"民進黨在執政的時候，有關運動的預算，體育署2016年是79.8億，到2022年是130億，2023年是137.6億，2024年超過160億。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:34:44.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:34:55.545000+08:00","text":"最近在組織方面，外界都認為是要升格，雖然行政院認為這是一個全新的，跟升格的概念不一樣，OK，但我比較擔心的是什麼？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:34:55.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:35:16.959000+08:00","text":"我比較擔心的是，院長，如果將教育部裡面原來的組織或是業務都把它移撥以後，我們最擔心的是體育的部分需要去改革，新的運動部成立以後必須要去回應外界，亦即以後整個運動界他們真正的需求。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:35:19.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:35:33.242000+08:00","text":"我要就教院長的就是，請你去看，我前幾天質詢我們的人事長，我們的體育部組織成立了，員額到底要怎麼編？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:35:33.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:35:47.115000+08:00","text":"目前教育部本部的員額是567人，公務預算的員額是1,540人，體育署是165人，人事長給我的回應是說，體育署已有現職人員，尚不需修訂中央政府機關總員額法。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:35:49.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:36:15.948000+08:00","text":"站在人事長的立場，他一定認為看有沒有辦法精簡組織，可是站在行政院這麼多部會的角度，像我就看到不管是海巡也好，警察人員也好，甚至我們的檢察機關也好，法務部也好，他們又需要很多的人力，可是我們的運動部上來以後，我們必須要去增加它的人力。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:36:15.948000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:36:23.053667+08:00","text":"我不知道院長你有什麼樣的「仙丹」，要怎麼去調和？","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:36:23.053667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:36:30.159333+08:00","text":"這兩個是完全不一樣的概念，就教院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:36:30.159333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:36:37.265000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:36:37.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:36:56.219000+08:00","text":"運動部從籌備開始至今受到社會廣泛的注意，也得到很多的支持，我們的任務是將教育部的體育署，不是升格的問題，是讓它成為一個全新的體育部，所以除了要全民運動，除了要國際競技、運動產業之外，針對一些弱勢的運動項目，我們也會給它更好的運動空間跟環境，這個都會在未來的運動部裡面產生。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:36:56.219000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:37:01.148000+08:00","text":"當然人事總處會希望員額能精簡，但是我認為在有限的人事當中，我們只要賦予未來的運動部新的政策宗旨，它就必定會有新的發展，而且它的預算也比往年還要多，我們絕對不會浪費任何的預算，會讓它充分的發揮。","quality":0.124},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:37:01.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:37:08.092000+08:00","text":"所以我們都期待，我們期待運動部成立以後，整個中央的資源可以很精準的下到基層，我們也希望在運動部成立以後，能更擴展整個全民運動的思維，但是真的最主要我們最擔心的是，不要換湯不換藥……是的。","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:37:08.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:37:18.502000+08:00","text":"應該要去改革過去的一些弊端以回應外界的訴求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:37:18.502000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:37:28.912000+08:00","text":"文化部長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:37:28.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:37:56.431000+08:00","text":"另外，我要就教院長跟部長的議題，就這個議題，其實運動部的成立從這個議題就看得出來真的有其必要，教育部，你看現在彩券就是你們管的嘛！是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:37:57.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:06.537000+08:00","text":"實話說讓教育部管彩券還是怪怪的，好像在賭博一樣，然後電競叫你們來管其實也怪怪的，所以趕快成立一個運動部，讓相關業務有所歸屬也不是壞事。","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:06.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:14.862000+08:00","text":"我要就教院長跟部長的就是，不知道你們兩位平常有沒有在關注運動賽事，我相信都有，你們有買過運動彩券（運彩）？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:17.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:17.596000+08:00","text":"我買過一次。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:17.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:18.596000+08:00","text":"你買過一次。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:17.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:18.459000+08:00","text":"一注幾塊你知道嗎？部長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:18.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:19.582000+08:00","text":"不知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:19.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:20.464000+08:00","text":"你不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:20.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:29.676000+08:00","text":"10塊，一次要買十注，這都是合法的，不是賭博，這個是正當的。","quality":0.348},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:30.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:45.262000+08:00","text":"我要講的就是，我們在今年的奧運會中拿到了兩金五銅總共七面獎牌，在幾年前的東京奧運會中，我們更創下了兩金四銀六銅十二面獎牌，是最大、最好的成績。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:45.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:38:46.262000+08:00","text":"我們黃金計畫的經費奧援來自於哪裡？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:38:46.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:00.768000+08:00","text":"就是我們的運動發展基金，這一筆經費很大一部分來自於我們運動彩券的盈餘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:00.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:06.811000+08:00","text":"運彩的蓬勃發展不僅推動了體育圈，也讓我們的選手能獲得更多的資源來支持。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:07.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:13.475000+08:00","text":"運動彩券的收入越高，投入運動發展的錢當然會越多，111年有多少錢你知不知道？部長。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:14.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:14.475000+08:00","text":"600億，沒關係你不用看，是600億。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:14.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:30.616000+08:00","text":"今年到現在截至8月份，我只調到8月份的資料而已，就有422億，看來今年應該算不錯，但是收入並沒有再增加，是什麼原因呢？","quality":0.646},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:31.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:32.398000+08:00","text":"這個我直接跟院長、部長你們說明。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:34.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:52.253000+08:00","text":"我們的運彩經銷商面臨很大的業績壓力，這次第三屆臺灣運彩新增了快一千家的經銷商，但是市場投注的風氣沒有明顯提升，很多經銷商的業績反而下滑，你知道是為什麼嗎？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:52.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:53.253000+08:00","text":"因為你們是規定50萬，規定50萬以後人多了，官方設定50萬的業績門檻，如果不到50萬，比如一個月只有10萬，我怎麼辦？","quality":0.047},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:53.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:54.253000+08:00","text":"我自己投，我自己下注，我認為這等同用自己的錢去賭博，這也不合理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:54.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:39:55.253000+08:00","text":"第二個是什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:39:54.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:40:23.410000+08:00","text":"就是退佣，現在店家一張彩券才賺6.25%的佣金，可是退佣是退到5%，這樣他都不用賺錢了！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:40:23.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:00.803000+08:00","text":"我認為這個惡性競爭跟退佣的文化導致這些經銷商都沒辦法賺到錢，所以這個部分我認為教育部有必要去處理，因為你們是主管機關嘛！","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:00.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:12.926000+08:00","text":"應該要跟委託發行的機關好好再去商量一下，因為我覺得這個運彩這樣就不對了，我們既然要讓它合法發行，我們又把這些錢挹注到整個運動發展基金裡面去，我們在國際賽事裡面，用這筆錢培養更多那麼棒的選手，可是我們在這些枝節裡面，我認為這個也是改革的一環啦！","quality":0.496},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:14.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:18.328000+08:00","text":"我跟教育部說這個，我都覺得怪怪的，這應該是未來的運動部要去處理好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:20.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:29.462000+08:00","text":"另外，院長，你也不用笑，我身邊有很多人都在賭博，如果是來賭這個運彩也還好，可是你知道都是賭什麼嗎？","quality":0.605},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:29.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:33.123000+08:00","text":"是賭非法的，就是一般講的球版嘛！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:33.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:43.306000+08:00","text":"這個是地下運彩，如果真的是要玩運彩，我們政府跟委託機關發行的就可以玩了，可是為什麼大家不玩？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:45.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:50.188000+08:00","text":"就算不好玩，一年還有600億，那如果好玩呢？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:51.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:53.710000+08:00","text":"為什麼會跟地下運彩那個所謂的球版差那麼多？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:54.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:41:54.430000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:41:57.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:42:00.807000+08:00","text":"這樣代表你都沒有在賭，我多少有在賭，你知道嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:42:00.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:42:02.469000+08:00","text":"你知道那個為什麼會這樣嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:42:02.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:42:23.284000+08:00","text":"譬如說那個賠率，我們現在的運彩也就是政府委託去發行的是1.5，就是我賭100塊，我只能拿回50塊，我賭1萬，我拿回來的是5,000，那地下非法的那些球版，我賭一萬塊，如果我贏了就是贏9,000，那賭起來心情更好啊！","quality":0.716},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:42:25.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:42:58.485000+08:00","text":"所以大家都往那裡去賭了，像這種球版用這樣賠率的方式，我們政府就輸給人家了，有一種叫現金版，另外一種叫做信用版，現金版就是馬上拿錢，另外一種叫做信用板，我教你要怎麼賭地下運彩，信用版是給你一定的額度，像鄭部長做到部長了，這樣的級數就讓你賭100萬，賭的時候不用先拿錢來，如果賭輸就要拿錢來，你沒錢要怎麼辦？","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:42:59.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:01.626000+08:00","text":"就有人說：「來，我借你錢。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:01.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:04.368000+08:00","text":"」地下錢莊就借你錢，借完又沒錢要怎麼辦？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:04.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:08.310000+08:00","text":"就會有一組人來跟你討債，來討債你要怎麼辦？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:08.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:10.711000+08:00","text":"你就跑路了，社會案件就發生了！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:11.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:19.381000+08:00","text":"所以對於這個賠率，我認為我們就已經開放運彩了，那為什麼會只有1.5呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:21.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:24.322000+08:00","text":"部長，要和地下運彩拚啦！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:24.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:24.842000+08:00","text":"他們1.9，我們也可以1.9啊！","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:26.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:28.523000+08:00","text":"政府又有稅收……韓院長在笑了，你看！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:28.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:37.825000+08:00","text":"在他們競選總統的時候，我們也是賭到要死，何況這個是正常的運動彩券！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:43:38.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:43:57.807000+08:00","text":"你那個退佣的文化不對，第二個，你那個賠率跟地下運彩差太多，讓人家覺得你都毫無吸引力，到最後讓他們在那邊猖獗，造成一大堆組頭，部長，你簡單回應一下好不好？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-15T14:44:00.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:44:03.164000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心運彩，這些年來運彩的利潤確實挹注、協助了國內運動的蓬勃發展，那麼運動彩券的盈餘也讓我們的運動發展基金在這些年有編列收入六十多億……","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:44:03.164000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:44:14.871000+08:00","text":"就是10%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-15T14:44:14.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:44:26.578000+08:00","text":"是，包含這一次的巴黎奧運，整個運彩大概有將近150億，我們就實收大概有10億。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:44:26.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:44:29.719000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說我們要幫經銷商解決他們的困境。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-15T14:44:47.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:44:56.050000+08:00","text":"剛才委員談到退佣的比例，我想我們內部在整個辦法還有那個賠率，我看我們再跟業界做更精細的討論。","quality":0.628},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:44:56.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:45:03.137000+08:00","text":"既然政府委託去發行以後，若那個制度有弊端或有不合理之處，院長，我們也要予以改革啊！","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:45:05.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:45:20.625000+08:00","text":"你已經合法認許它的一個存在了，那你為什麼會讓它的佣金6.25%，若退佣退5%，其他光是租金、水電費也不夠，那就變成大家一起來賭博了嘛，你要賭，你又輸給地下彩券，這個說不通啦！","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:45:22.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:45:28.321000+08:00","text":"我現在就是職籃的會長，拜託，把我們的職籃順便列進去啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:45:28.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:45:29.502000+08:00","text":"品項就多了嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-15T14:45:29.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-15T14:45:50.735000+08:00","text":"博弈型的運彩跟彩券都必須有社會更安全的管控才可以，尤其是運彩牽涉到比賽的公平性，如果政府提供更安全、可靠的，用這個來吸引國人來參與，但是在計算的過程當中，我們如果說完全沒有辦法跟地下的來競爭的話，那我覺得運彩它的功能會減弱，這個部分我們可以檢討，但還是要維持社會的公平性跟信賴度。是啦！","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:45:51.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:45:56.092143+08:00","text":"我覺得這個部分應該改革還是要改革啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:45:56.392143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:46:04.677857+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，接下來黃建賓會跟你討錢，你就跟他說，趕快讓總預算通過啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:46:04.977857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:46:14.692143+08:00","text":"確實臺東真的很缺錢，像我們的農路，臺東真的很需要，災損真的很需要，可是沒錢啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-15T14:46:14.992143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:46:32.135000+08:00","text":"而水災的部分的執行率，去年編的已經執行到99.1%，農業部農路的部分還差414億，待會黃建賓跟你討經費的話就給他啦，但是請趕快讓總預算通過啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T14:46:32.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:46:41.006429+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-15T14:46:41.306429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-15T14:46:45.592143+08:00","text":"接下來請登記第8號黃建賓委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:26 - 14:46:30","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（14時30分）謝謝韓院長，有請行政院卓院長及教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長及鄭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長午安。昨天中共又對臺灣進行了環台軍演，不過這跟以前來做比較的話，這次只有1天就結束了，好像觀光一樣，但是我看到新華社特別提到說這是對台獨分裂勢力的強力震懾，說是捍衛國家主權、維護國家統一的必要行動。這個聽在臺灣人的耳朵裡面，大家可能會覺得鬼才要跟它統一！但是老共的統戰手法除了文攻武嚇之外，也就是軍事、政治跟經濟上的壓力之外，這幾年它也透過文化跟體育活動來進行統戰，而且是軟硬兼施。比如2個月前的第五屆海峽兩岸青少年棒球文化節，這聽起來是很正常的體育活動，可是我看到國台辦主任宋濤利用這樣一個體育賽事所談的都是「一中原則」跟「九二共識」，強調習近平高度重視、關心臺灣的青年，歡迎臺灣青年去共築中國夢，可是看到了昨天的軍演，我覺得這個都是兩面手法。","可是這樣的體育活動，我們看到國內的縣市首長去了也是強調「九二共識」、「反對台獨」，比如說上個月福建舉辦了一個「同名村村BA籃球邀請賽」，人家是NBA，他們就針對同名村弄了個村BA籃球邀請賽，就是利用宗親文化的感情及歷史交織，進一步也是談到兩岸一家親。這個看起來很清楚，都是一種統戰，可是本院立委也會去拍片、去幫忙做背書。我不曉得院長和部長對於這些中國利用體育賽事來當成統戰工具的資訊有沒有掌握？接下來我們面對這樣的情況，院長的態度是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，我們當然希望體育運動賽事無國界，讓全世界的好手能夠聚集一堂來互相切磋、比較，但是從過去到現在以來穿插太多的政治因素，連參加人的服裝、旗、歌都要對我們有種種限制的話，就是扣一頂大帽子再讓我們穿小鞋，這樣是非常不好的，兩岸之間通常就是在這種狀況底下。我實在很希望這種活動如果是誠心誠意為對方著想，讓對方年輕人參與的活動，那是非常非常好的，但是通常都不是這樣子的，所以我們要有相當大的戒心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我非常贊同院長所提到的，其實哪怕是昨天中共軍演剛結束，如果兩岸之間體育文化的交流不要涉及統戰的話，臺灣的民眾還是可以接受兩邊的交流。對於院長這樣的表態，我相信都值得政府再去做進一步省思，面對體育的統戰，甚至是各種利誘，我想最主要應該是要把我們自己的體育環境打造的更好，為臺灣的運動員提供更好的空間。","民進黨在執政的時候，有關運動的預算，體育署2016年是79.8億，到2022年是130億，2023年是137.6億，2024年超過160億。最近在組織方面，外界都認為是要升格，雖然行政院認為這是一個全新的，跟升格的概念不一樣，OK，但我比較擔心的是什麼？我比較擔心的是，院長，如果將教育部裡面原來的組織或是業務都把它移撥以後，我們最擔心的是體育的部分需要去改革，新的運動部成立以後必須要去回應外界，亦即以後整個運動界他們真正的需求。我要就教院長的就是，請你去看，我前幾天質詢我們的人事長，我們的體育部組織成立了，員額到底要怎麼編？","目前教育部本部的員額是567人，公務預算的員額是1,540人，體育署是165人，人事長給我的回應是說，體育署已有現職人員，尚不需修訂中央政府機關總員額法。站在人事長的立場，他一定認為看有沒有辦法精簡組織，可是站在行政院這麼多部會的角度，像我就看到不管是海巡也好，警察人員也好，甚至我們的檢察機關也好，法務部也好，他們又需要很多的人力，可是我們的運動部上來以後，我們必須要去增加它的人力。我不知道院長你有什麼樣的「仙丹」，要怎麼去調和？這兩個是完全不一樣的概念，就教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。運動部從籌備開始至今受到社會廣泛的注意，也得到很多的支持，我們的任務是將教育部的體育署，不是升格的問題，是讓它成為一個全新的體育部，所以除了要全民運動，除了要國際競技、運動產業之外，針對一些弱勢的運動項目，我們也會給它更好的運動空間跟環境，這個都會在未來的運動部裡面產生。當然人事總處會希望員額能精簡，但是我認為在有限的人事當中，我們只要賦予未來的運動部新的政策宗旨，它就必定會有新的發展，而且它的預算也比往年還要多，我們絕對不會浪費任何的預算，會讓它充分的發揮。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我們都期待，我們期待運動部成立以後，整個中央的資源可以很精準的下到基層，我們也希望在運動部成立以後，能更擴展整個全民運動的思維，但是真的最主要我們最擔心的是，不要換湯不換藥……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：應該要去改革過去的一些弊端以回應外界的訴求。文化部長請回。","另外，我要就教院長跟部長的議題，就這個議題，其實運動部的成立從這個議題就看得出來真的有其必要，教育部，你看現在彩券就是你們管的嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：實話說讓教育部管彩券還是怪怪的，好像在賭博一樣，然後電競叫你們來管其實也怪怪的，所以趕快成立一個運動部，讓相關業務有所歸屬也不是壞事。我要就教院長跟部長的就是，不知道你們兩位平常有沒有在關注運動賽事，我相信都有，你們有買過運動彩券（運彩）？"],["卓院長榮泰：我買過一次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你買過一次。一注幾塊你知道嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：不知道。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不知道。10塊，一次要買十注，這都是合法的，不是賭博，這個是正當的。我要講的就是，我們在今年的奧運會中拿到了兩金五銅總共七面獎牌，在幾年前的東京奧運會中，我們更創下了兩金四銀六銅十二面獎牌，是最大、最好的成績。我們黃金計畫的經費奧援來自於哪裡？就是我們的運動發展基金，這一筆經費很大一部分來自於我們運動彩券的盈餘。運彩的蓬勃發展不僅推動了體育圈，也讓我們的選手能獲得更多的資源來支持。","運動彩券的收入越高，投入運動發展的錢當然會越多，111年有多少錢你知不知道？部長。600億，沒關係你不用看，是600億。今年到現在截至8月份，我只調到8月份的資料而已，就有422億，看來今年應該算不錯，但是收入並沒有再增加，是什麼原因呢？這個我直接跟院長、部長你們說明。","我們的運彩經銷商面臨很大的業績壓力，這次第三屆臺灣運彩新增了快一千家的經銷商，但是市場投注的風氣沒有明顯提升，很多經銷商的業績反而下滑，你知道是為什麼嗎？因為你們是規定50萬，規定50萬以後人多了，官方設定50萬的業績門檻，如果不到50萬，比如一個月只有10萬，我怎麼辦？我自己投，我自己下注，我認為這等同用自己的錢去賭博，這也不合理。第二個是什麼呢？就是退佣，現在店家一張彩券才賺6.25%的佣金，可是退佣是退到5%，這樣他都不用賺錢了！我認為這個惡性競爭跟退佣的文化導致這些經銷商都沒辦法賺到錢，所以這個部分我認為教育部有必要去處理，因為你們是主管機關嘛！應該要跟委託發行的機關好好再去商量一下，因為我覺得這個運彩這樣就不對了，我們既然要讓它合法發行，我們又把這些錢挹注到整個運動發展基金裡面去，我們在國際賽事裡面，用這筆錢培養更多那麼棒的選手，可是我們在這些枝節裡面，我認為這個也是改革的一環啦！我跟教育部說這個，我都覺得怪怪的，這應該是未來的運動部要去處理好。","另外，院長，你也不用笑，我身邊有很多人都在賭博，如果是來賭這個運彩也還好，可是你知道都是賭什麼嗎？是賭非法的，就是一般講的球版嘛！這個是地下運彩，如果真的是要玩運彩，我們政府跟委託機關發行的就可以玩了，可是為什麼大家不玩？就算不好玩，一年還有600億，那如果好玩呢？為什麼會跟地下運彩那個所謂的球版差那麼多？部長，你知道嗎？這樣代表你都沒有在賭，我多少有在賭，你知道嗎？你知道那個為什麼會這樣嗎？譬如說那個賠率，我們現在的運彩也就是政府委託去發行的是1.5，就是我賭100塊，我只能拿回50塊，我賭1萬，我拿回來的是5,000，那地下非法的那些球版，我賭一萬塊，如果我贏了就是贏9,000，那賭起來心情更好啊！所以大家都往那裡去賭了，像這種球版用這樣賠率的方式，我們政府就輸給人家了，有一種叫現金版，另外一種叫做信用版，現金版就是馬上拿錢，另外一種叫做信用板，我教你要怎麼賭地下運彩，信用版是給你一定的額度，像鄭部長做到部長了，這樣的級數就讓你賭100萬，賭的時候不用先拿錢來，如果賭輸就要拿錢來，你沒錢要怎麼辦？就有人說：「來，我借你錢。」地下錢莊就借你錢，借完又沒錢要怎麼辦？就會有一組人來跟你討債，來討債你要怎麼辦？你就跑路了，社會案件就發生了！所以對於這個賠率，我認為我們就已經開放運彩了，那為什麼會只有1.5呢？部長，要和地下運彩拚啦！他們1.9，我們也可以1.9啊！政府又有稅收……韓院長在笑了，你看！在他們競選總統的時候，我們也是賭到要死，何況這個是正常的運動彩券！你那個退佣的文化不對，第二個，你那個賠率跟地下運彩差太多，讓人家覺得你都毫無吸引力，到最後讓他們在那邊猖獗，造成一大堆組頭，部長，你簡單回應一下好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心運彩，這些年來運彩的利潤確實挹注、協助了國內運動的蓬勃發展，那麼運動彩券的盈餘也讓我們的運動發展基金在這些年有編列收入六十多億……"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是10%。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，包含這一次的巴黎奧運，整個運彩大概有將近150億，我們就實收大概有10億。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我的意思是說我們要幫經銷商解決他們的困境。"],["鄭部長英耀：剛才委員談到退佣的比例，我想我們內部在整個辦法還有那個賠率，我看我們再跟業界做更精細的討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：既然政府委託去發行以後，若那個制度有弊端或有不合理之處，院長，我們也要予以改革啊！你已經合法認許它的一個存在了，那你為什麼會讓它的佣金6.25%，若退佣退5%，其他光是租金、水電費也不夠，那就變成大家一起來賭博了嘛，你要賭，你又輸給地下彩券，這個說不通啦！我現在就是職籃的會長，拜託，把我們的職籃順便列進去啦！品項就多了嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：博弈型的運彩跟彩券都必須有社會更安全的管控才可以，尤其是運彩牽涉到比賽的公平性，如果政府提供更安全、可靠的，用這個來吸引國人來參與，但是在計算的過程當中，我們如果說完全沒有辦法跟地下的來競爭的話，那我覺得運彩它的功能會減弱，這個部分我們可以檢討，但還是要維持社會的公平性跟信賴度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！我覺得這個部分應該改革還是要改革啦！謝謝院長，接下來黃建賓會跟你討錢，你就跟他說，趕快讓總預算通過啦！確實臺東真的很缺錢，像我們的農路，臺東真的很需要，災損真的很需要，可是沒錢啊！而水災的部分的執行率，去年編的已經執行到99.1%，農業部農路的部分還差414億，待會黃建賓跟你討經費的話就給他啦，但是請趕快讓總預算通過啦！"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。接下來請登記第8號黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}