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案預告要修正是要把精神動員兩個字改成教育動員所以意思就是說你要把學生如果說你要教育機關學子等等的要把它給放進去但到時候權動法有沒有修過沒有嘛所以你到目前為止此時此刻法條明文規定都還是精神動員啊"},{"start":238.359,"end":261.713,"text":"那結果你們現在已經去年預告大家一片嘩然已經覺得說奇怪怎麼教育部要這樣做是不是要把學生送戰場沒有到時候不敢碰選動法就沒有修法了結果沒有修法的情況下你們持續照走變成是法令沒有修過結果你們該你們要做的事情你們還是做不覺得很奇怪嗎再來我再請教部長"},{"start":263.237,"end":280.567,"text":"您是大家長啦所以說我覺得說這是為什麼我要確認你到底了不了解這件事情我請教什麼時候開始恢復照冊的誰下的命令其實不需要照冊真的不需要誰下的命令去做調查的"},{"start":281.447,"end":294.581,"text":"誰下的命令去做這個會期的?因為暫時的時候確實包括救災啊關懷災民啊都確實需要人力上的協助那他可能會有替代力來會有後備軍人我現在在請教部長你很想篡位是不是還是?"},{"start":303.629,"end":321.256,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我想在許多的程序我們...部長我只是確認一下說您知不知道什麼時候在誰下的命令要去學生做造冊或是說您剛講的嘛,現在教育部有發給所有各縣市的教育局要去做這個學生登記甚至你們也有回覆啊,你們說未滿18歲我還要家長同意"},{"start":324.872,"end":325.052,"text":"來,部長看一下"},{"start":350.054,"end":373.706,"text":"2023年去年3月我剛一直提到因為國防部要修這個權動法權動法草案一出來之後全國嘩然而且可能是因為去年剛好要選舉了所以執政黨也許覺得說這個火壓不住喔所以就到3月的時候2月草案才公告3月的時候馬上就講教育部說高中以上停止辦理建制"},{"start":375.086,"end":402.761,"text":"各地方政府轉資高級中等學校以上停止辦理全國防衛動員資訊整合系統建置學生青年服勤資料2023年就是112年的3月3日白紙黑字好那現在又重新開始啦風頭過了覺得說沒有人關注了選舉選完了賴清德當選了我要做再來做"},{"start":403.86,"end":414.107,"text":"所以我現在問阿2023年3月3號有一個命令說終止那誰開啟了再繼續建置學生服勤資料的命令誰下的指示"},{"start":417.093,"end":417.713,"text":"主管機關也沒有名冊"},{"start":445.057,"end":474.077,"text":"所以嘛拉回來我現在在講部長看起來你是完全狀況外啊笑笑代表什麼部長我們只想問啊是不是之後戰場來之後教育部要把學生送戰場這肯定不會的肯定不會我也希望不會啊我也希望台海不要有任何的戰事啊但是現在教育部做的事情就讓所有的家長都擔心擔憂啊大家覺得匪夷所思啊"},{"start":475.828,"end":491.875,"text":"我想我們在這個還是來自一個社區的安全防護的一個韌性來看台灣的颱風跟這個地震多但是我們怎麼樣讓學校成為一個支持社區安全的一個防災防難的一個據點我想這是我們的初始目標"},{"start":495.777,"end":510.248,"text":"那剛才委員所關心的屬於我們行政上的疏失內部我們會深切來檢討然後如果因此而造成家長的恐慌我想我們也在這邊致歉但是確實以這樣一個辦法我們不會讓年輕學子上戰場"},{"start":514.909,"end":544.589,"text":"部長本席再拉回來喔剛剛特別讓你再做一個寫聲說明本席拉回來現在我們所有的政府都在推AIAI我也覺得很重要但是現在AI的狀況到底有沒有推對症下藥這一點我覺得也相關重要九月的時候我們有召集台灣大專院校人工智慧學程聯盟的一個記者會就希望是說這些大學來開相關的AI的課程結果"},{"start":545.589,"end":565.022,"text":"現在變成是不少聯盟學校的選課不盡理想一堂課說只有兩個人選讀甚至私校還有祭出獎勵金制度修一門課可以得到一萬塊取得教育部證書再發十萬外界批評說私校發一萬為了拿教育部的補助"},{"start":566.817,"end":593.06,"text":"會不會本末導致?根委員這完全沒有補助的根委員澄清這完全沒有補助那是怎麼樣來整合?我們當時就是為了因應這個產業跟我們年輕世代學子的一個學習上的有更豐富的一個學習資源事實上是透過以台澄清教為主這些研究型大學的老師教授共同來"},{"start":594.241,"end":594.981,"text":"對,但是現在看起來就是一堂課選修的狀況不佳"},{"start":624.701,"end":650.648,"text":"所以說是不是就是說在這個上面跟委員報告我們原來設定就是第一學期就2400位目前事實上實際休課是2500多位簡單而來講遠距教學就都是用遠距教學那麼各校因為這一個學生跟開課的問題部長因為我實際有限那但是另外一個部分高等教育的部分這再請資料給本席可是另外"},{"start":651.668,"end":678.428,"text":"現在教育部也研擬辦理國中小的AI菁英爭霸賽AI菁英爭霸賽先不講是說這樣的一個名稱有沒有造成是說大家覺得說是不是菁英教育但另外教育部的指引課堂上不要讓13歲以下的學生使用一般的生成式AI那會不會就有點矛盾你又要辦國中小的AI菁英爭霸賽然後你又跟大家講是說13歲以下"},{"start":679.474,"end":683.136,"text":"學生盡量避免使用一般性的AI。"},{"start":699.587,"end":703.409,"text":"時間真的已經到了,我們今天四十幾個人質詢,除非你們不整天都要在一起登記"},{"start":714.797,"end":717.959,"text":"部長請回謝謝洪孟楷委員下次你當召委的時候你幾多場都可以好嗎"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:32:24 - 09:44:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","gazette":{"lineno":170,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時32分）主席謝謝，麻煩請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這兩天高中的家長大家都很擔憂，因為我們現在有發送所謂青年服勤同意書，第一時間教育部是說沒有這個事情，昨天你又回答說是全民國防人人有責，我想請教到底有沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這個公文確實是去年我還沒上任之前就已經發布。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年你還沒有上任前發？"],["鄭部長英耀：今年會調查，過去在這20年來，教育部大概就是授權各個學校……全動法以後，各個學校它自行編組。"],["洪委員孟楷：是全動法嘛！你的法源依據是全動法？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是全民防衛動員準備法。"],["洪委員孟楷：全民防衛動員準備法？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，全民防衛動員準備法裡面有包含兩階段，準備階段跟實施階段，我想請教一下，你看一下全動法第二條裡面明白寫到，動員實施階段指戰事發生或將發生或緊急危難時，總統發布緊急命令，就要實施全國動員。所以換言之，我們現在造冊就是如果說將來有一天戰事發生，我們16歲的學子也要上戰場？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個肯定不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：也要面對戰事發生？"],["鄭部長英耀：只要戰事發生，任何一個人都必須要面對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但我現在講的是說你現在造冊，然後要去做相關的部分，不就是讓大家覺得現在16歲……"],["鄭部長英耀：學生基本上是留在原社區自己的學校裡面去做後勤、慰問，或者相關照顧協助的一些後勤工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛也講了，戰事發生的話，沒有一個人可以避免，那你怎麼有辦法限定學生只留在學校呢？你的邏輯是矛盾的啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：以我們的規範，他就是只做後勤上的協助。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，部長，我們再看，16歲以上學生造冊，這個是去年2月全動法的修法草案，那時候國防部有說16歲以上學生動員造冊，國防部說只用於非常時期。我想請教，既然國防部有說只用於非常時期，那平時我們沒有任何的一個狀況，為什麼現在在造冊？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，過去我們事實上就是由學校來自己做分組……"],["洪委員孟楷：我可不可以再請教一下，在全動法裡面，教育部主管或是主要負責的工作是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：根據全動法，我們就是協助地方政府的避難引導、社區的關懷跟公共服務，跟行政上的支援。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嗎？要不要再確認一下？教育部主要負責是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：請吳司長來說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：一句話，全動法裡面寫得非常清楚，教育部主要負責的是什麼？"],["吳司長林輝：一個是全民國防教育，一個就是學生青年服勤。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！來，部長，你顯然沒有搞懂，中央主管機關教育部負責的是什麼？是精神動員準備方案，你剛剛講的人力的部分是內政部，你剛剛說相關物資的部分是經濟部，所以其實教育部你做的是精神動員，可是你現在已經撈過界了。然後，去年全動法的草案預告要修正，是要把精神動員改成教育動員，所以意思就是你要把學生……如果你要把教育機關、學子等等放進去，但到時候全動法有沒有修過？沒有嘛！所以到目前為止、此時此刻，法條明文規定都還是精神動員啊！結果你們現在已經……去年預告，大家一片譁然，已經覺得奇怪，怎麼教育部要這樣做，是不是要把學生送戰場？沒有，到時候不敢碰，全動法就沒有修法了。結果沒有修法的情況下，你們持續照走，變成是法令沒有修過，結果你們要做的事情你們還是做，不覺得很奇怪嗎？","再來，我再請教部長，您是大家長啦！所以這是為什麼我要確認你到底了不了解這件事情，我請教什麼時候開始恢復造冊的？誰下的命令？"],["吳司長林輝：其實不需要造冊，真的不需要造冊，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：誰下命令去做調查的？誰下命令去彙集的？"],["吳司長林輝：因為戰時包括救災、關懷災民，都確實需要人力上的協助，它可能會替代役還有……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！我現在在問的是……而且您是……"],["吳司長林輝：當最後不得已……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在請教部長……"],["吳司長林輝：會需要學生來幫忙。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在請教部長，你很想篡位，是不是？還是？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我想在許多的程序，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我只是確認一下，您知不知道什麼時候、誰下的命令，要去做學生造冊？或是說您剛剛講的，現在教育部有發給所有各縣市教育局要去做學生登記，甚至你們也有回復，你們說未滿18歲還要家長同意，所以現在回收率狀況怎麼樣？有多少的學生簽下？"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，確實是學特司本於實務上它所做的……"],["洪委員孟楷：哪一個司？"],["鄭部長英耀：學特司。"],["洪委員孟楷：學特司？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們吳司長……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，學生事務及特殊教育司，是不是？好，來，下一頁，部長看一下，2023年（去年）3月，我剛剛一直提到因為國防部要修全動法，全動法草案一出來之後，全國譁然，而且可能是因為去年剛好要選舉了，執政黨也許覺得說這個火壓不住，所以到2月草案才公告，3月的時候教育部馬上就說：高中以上停止辦理建置，各地方政府轉知高級中等學校以上停止辦理「全國防衛動員資訊整合系統」建置學生青年服勤資料。2023年就是112年的3月3日，白紙黑字，現在又重新開始了，風頭過了，覺得說沒有人關注了，選舉選完了，賴清德當選了，要做再來做。所以我現在問，2023年3月3號有一個命令說終止，那誰開啟了再繼續建置學生服勤資料的命令？誰下的指示？"],["吳司長林輝：我說明，我們停止的是系統上傳的這件事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：你講建置停止辦理啊！你沒有說回歸、留校備查啊！"],["吳司長林輝：對，系統停止辦理……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在問的是，你什麼時候又重新要學校來去做調查？"],["吳司長林輝：委員，您看一下，紅色這段前面是留校備查，所以確實是留校備查，現在學校只有呈報人數給主管機關，主管機關也沒有名冊。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以嘛，拉回來，我現在就講，看起來部長你是完全狀況外！笑？笑代表什麼？部長，我們只想問，是不是戰場來了之後，教育部要把學生送戰場？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個肯定不會的。"],["洪委員孟楷：肯定不會，我也希望不會啊，我也希望臺海不要有任何戰事！"],["鄭部長英耀：這個我想……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在教育部做的事情就讓所有的家長都擔心、擔憂，大家覺得匪夷所思啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們還是自提升社區安全防護的韌性來看，臺灣的颱風跟地震多，但是我們怎麼樣讓學校成為一個支持社區安全防災防難的一個據點，這個是我們的初始目標。剛才委員所關心的，屬於我們行政上的疏失，內部我們會深切來檢討，如果因此而造成家長的恐慌，我們也在這邊致歉，確實以這樣一個辦法，我們不會讓年輕學子上戰場。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，剛剛特別讓你再做一個解釋和說明，本席再拉回來，現在我們所有的政府都在推AI，我也覺得很重要，但是現在AI的狀況，到底有沒有對症下藥，這一點我覺得也相當重要。9月的時候，我們有召開臺灣大專院校人工智慧學程聯盟的一個記者會，希望這些大學來開相關AI的課程，結果現在變成不少聯盟學校的選課不盡理想，一堂課只有兩個人選讀，甚至私校還有祭出獎勵金制度，修一門課可以得到1萬塊，取得教育部證書再發10萬，外界批評私校發1萬是為了拿教育部的補助，會不會本末倒置？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個完全沒有補助的，跟委員澄清，這個完全沒有補助。"],["洪委員孟楷：那是怎麼樣來整合？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當時是為了因應這個產業，讓我們年輕世代學子學習上有更豐富的一個學習資源，事實上是透過以臺、成、清、交為主這些研究型大學的老師、教授，共同就他們的專業來設計課程，甚至不僅只是研究型大學，希望能佳惠更多的臺灣的年輕學子，因為他們學校可能有一些師資或沒有這方面的師資所以沒有開這門課，我們起心動念，就希望透過這一個跨校資源的整合，能夠給全國的大學生，在未來甚至高中生都能夠修這個課。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是現在看起來就是1堂課，選修的狀況不佳，所以是不是在這個上面……"],["鄭部長英耀：不會的，跟委員報告，我們原來設定第一學期就是2,400位，目前實際修課是兩千五百多位。簡單來講我們初步……"],["洪委員孟楷：遠距教學，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：都是用遠距教學。各校因為學生跟開課的資源不同……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，部長，因為我時間有限，高等教育的部分，再請把資料給本席。另外，現在教育部也研擬辦理國中小的AI菁英爭霸賽，先不講這樣的一個名稱有沒有造成大家覺得是菁英教育，但是教育部的指引是課堂上不要讓13歲以下的學生使用一般的生成式AI，那會不會就有點矛盾？"],["主席：好，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：你又要辦國中小的AI菁英爭霸賽，然後又跟大家講13歲以下學生盡量避免使用一般的生成式AI……"],["主席：洪委員，因為時間已經超過了，是不是部長書面報告給你，或者是到辦公室說明，好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，知不知道這件事情？有沒有在研議？"],["主席：請書面回復，或者是到洪委員辦公室說明，好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：有在研議這件事情嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：很快說一下……"],["主席：時間真的已經到了，我們今天四十幾個人質詢，除非你們教育部一整天都要在這。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，召委，我們很持平來講，今天四十幾個人質詢，我們通常也都是到兩點。"],["主席：不是，8分鐘得延長2分鐘，我們要一致，因為剛剛萬美玲的時間……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒問題，我們也可以會開長一點，沒關係，我尊重你，但是部長，很多東西……"],["主席：孟楷，他書面報告或者是之後到你……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們應該要好好的去檢討，而不是為了AI而AI，這個是本席的建議。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，這個大概有誤會，其實生成式的AI跟AI比賽是兩回事。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒問題，我們繼續……"],["主席：次長，已經超時很久了。"],["洪委員孟楷：有相關資料可以提供給本席，好不好？謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：會後我們會提供給委員，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝洪孟楷委員，下次你當召委的時候多長都可以，好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["主席：下一位請柯志恩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}