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訴他這個這個"},{"start":176.235,"end":197.884,"text":"你沒有辦法幫忙他嗎?我沒有辦法現在直接去允許他從外面直接引進移工然後進來做這種要考照要上電線桿的工作我現在還沒有開放這個所以那我問你那台電一天到晚被這個動物在攻擊那不過人維修怎麼辦?被動物?不是常常這樣嗎?"},{"start":200.512,"end":228.237,"text":"其實委員跟您報告就是我們現在就建議說第一個他這個本身的過去台電都有建交合作啦就綁本國的記職生嘛其實早年他們都這麼做的當然現在可能我們本國的記職生不夠所以我們希望他能夠去信一些朝外生來我們增加四類嘛增加英語、泰語跟越南語還有印尼輔助語這些技術性的徵兆那我想請問一下你是考中文還是考他們的母語考用他們母語考"},{"start":230.04,"end":252.16,"text":"就是這個就是用他們的母語也可以輔助考這個就是便利讓他臺電現在有的已經要成為中階技術人才的資深移工考啦所以他考了這些證照之後就能夠可以擔任這個技術的工作委員我要跟您報告這一種功能的重點在於說因為他認定的標準是什麼就是你只要考試考過了就可以"},{"start":253.373,"end":256.574,"text":"所以到時候我們在進行考核的時候就是說我們在考核他們的時候我們的人也都要懂他們的母語"},{"start":281.724,"end":290.059,"text":"啊不是不是不然我們怎麼查是他要幫我們的是我們用母語所以所以他你沒有你不是用中文考啊"},{"start":291.878,"end":315.125,"text":"有中文可是也同時有母語的輔助啦就是翻翻譯有翻譯的文字在旁邊這樣我因為這是關於安全的問題對對對對對我覺得說未來你們要怎麼查核怎麼樣去讓這個事情執行的更好啊我想我們也是因為這樣所以我們對這個開放非常的慎重我現在就是沒有開放他直接從外面另外剛剛我也看到就是說他"},{"start":316.508,"end":336.841,"text":"我們也擔心說我們培養了這些人才那萬一他留不住這個通過拿到證照之後跑掉怎麼辦這就是台電要去努力的啊可能要比較高的薪水或者是他台電其實是願意花多一點錢的啦他在花錢培育培養沒錯那我擔心的是這些人才我們留不住"},{"start":338.184,"end":356.38,"text":"對 這就是我們企業要去努力的好啦 那我們大家一起努力啦好不好剛剛我講那些問題還請部長你回去還是要多注重一下他們在執行上安全的問題那另外我再來請問一下我們114年的中央總預算整體評估報告裡面"},{"start":357.32,"end":377.455,"text":"其中有一點就直接點出我們勞保基金財務的壓力那它裡面講到移進數完成周妥財務改善的方法及法制的作業你們的業務也報告也說未來工作的重點也是這個要開源維持這個勞保財務的穩健那我看到從109年開始就撥補113年114年都編了1200億"},{"start":385.04,"end":409.127,"text":"又額外編列300億預算分了3年等於這幾年我們中央總共補助了3870億元所以這個這個金額是非常嚇人的那我看到你們的穩健的財務的方式大概是撥補想辦法增加保險的人口還有投資調整保費看起來這個撥補還是佔大部分那今年1300億明年1300億然後呢未來怎麼辦一直補嗎"},{"start":413.68,"end":431.814,"text":"委員我們現在補了3871億之後今年的餘額已經來到一兆一千億了所以目前基金很安全對所以這是有成效的而且撥補的成效是占主要的那世界各國委員世界各國都是這麼做的並不是說以後不會出問題我們審慎處理"},{"start":439.741,"end":458.178,"text":"委員當然就是因為可能會出問題說我們一定要撥補所以你說你現在很安全只是你任期內很安全對不對你是不是這樣講你的任期內只要我卸任了之後就沒有我的事了不是這個意思委員我們要對我們政府有信心這是永續發展的任何黨派執政即便政黨在輪替我想都可以兩個部會兩個在比誰的洞比較大"},{"start":466.693,"end":472.215,"text":"一百一十二年我看到你們的那個那個調整的方式就是一百一十二年的勞保費率是12%兩年條一次"},{"start":488.131,"end":493.414,"text":"我們現在11.5現在11.5明年會調到11.5明年調到11.5那114年就要調到多少?12我們那個天花板是13對吧?我們那個天花板是12家舊寶才13那就是12嘛也就是說我們在賴總統的任內就會達到就有能夠衝到天花板"},{"start":517.786,"end":522.652,"text":"我們明年就是要邁入這個超高齡的社會那未來給付的年金會越來越多"},{"start":532.563,"end":548.05,"text":"我們的人口紅利2028年就沒有了,那問題是大家都知道,所以我也想到看到一個專家學者說的他說我們越晚開始改革就要花更多的成本,部長您的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":548.41,"end":566.234,"text":"委員我們已經在改革了我們除了撥補以外當然我們也透過希望能夠推動比如今年委員也共同推動了勞基法54條的修正案我們希望能夠一方面推動中高齡就業然後有推動自然延退部長請還是要多趕快把辦法想出來盡量然後盡快改善這個問題好不好好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":577.029,"end":599.677,"text":"我再問一個問題好了,我們看到80歲以上的巴士量表的解套,那我看到我們的對象裡面有一個被看護者80歲以上且有長期就醫記錄者,這個就以後免巴士量表對不對?"},{"start":601.502,"end":624.492,"text":"那是委員的修法案對,我們現在提的嘛,對不對?您會朝這個方向走嗎?我們比較不希望用年齡來劃分,因為用年齡來劃分的話會導致那你這裡面為什麼會有,你們寫的裡面為什麼會寫80歲以上呢?是我們修法的問題嗎?這個不是,這是80歲以上長期有就醫嘛"},{"start":626.747,"end":651.758,"text":"對他是有那個真正有病啦他還是要以有病為其實80歲的誰會沒病呢那很少啦那那這個這個我講就是說我想要問的就是說你長期的就醫是指一般的慢性疾病還是怎麼樣這個定義在哪裡對慢性疾病就高血壓糖尿病這種的對有那個要跟就是衛福部我們一起定這個就醫的標準對不對"},{"start":655.318,"end":658.681,"text":"這個是還在研究當中啦還在跟衛福部聯誼這是在擴大多元免貧"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:54:38 - 10:05:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時54分）主席好，我一樣請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長你好。我請問一下，我這兩天看到的新聞就是關於台電外包商引進移工的問題，台電有台電的說法、勞動部也有勞動部的說法，我第一個問題，電器承裝業可以請移工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：目前是不行的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：營造業在一定條件下可以申請移工，那電器承裝業是營造業嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是……委員，不好意思。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它是營造業？"],["何部長佩珊：不好意思，剛剛我有點岔開。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我說營造業在一定條件下可以申請移工，那電器承裝業是營造業嗎？它是屬於營造業嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：它屬於廣泛的營建工程的一環，可是問題出在必須考那個照，目前公司沒有辦法考啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們說台電配電的外線工程是公共工程嘛，符合公共工程的金額跟工期就可以申請移工，但是所謂的配電外線是由電器承裝業承攬，電器承裝業工作人員本身的限制就很多，照你們的說法，只要是公共工程，承包金額、工期符合，其他都沒有關係是嗎？你們的廣義是這樣訂嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這一種他所聘的移工只能從事體力工作，不能從事這種要考照的、這種電器裝配的工作，這就是為什麼……委員，我要跟你解釋，我們跟經濟部現在協商的重點就是，我們只允許台電已經引進的這一種基層體力工的移工，他也許待久了變資深移工，那他有一定程度的語言溝通能力之後，我們建議台電可以輔導他們考照來轉而從事這一種電器承裝業的工作，我們只開放到這裡，不是開放直接引進。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到是這樣，執行管路工程是做勞力活這個大家都知道，那配電外線是電器承裝業承攬，你們一直談的就是配電外線的部分，要讓台電的包商可以請移工去修復台電的這些電纜設備，既然台電的外包商早就可以申請移工了，為什麼經濟部還要跟勞動部求援呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，他們現在確實這方面是缺人啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊。"],["何部長佩珊：對……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要講的意思就是說，我看到的新聞是說，關於你們這兩天講的，你還是告訴他，這部分你沒有辦法幫忙他們嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我現在沒有辦法允許他從外面直接引進移工進來做這種要考照、要上電線桿的工作，我現在還沒有開放這個。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以媒體寫的又不太一樣。那我問你，台電一天到晚被動物攻擊，不夠人去維修怎麼辦？"],["何部長佩珊：被動物……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是常常這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我們現在建議，第一個，過去台電都有建教合作，就是綁本國的技職生嘛，其實早年他們都這麼做的，當然現在可能我們本國的技職生不夠，所以我們希望他能夠去吸引一些僑外生來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛提到我們增加四類，增加英語、泰語、越南語還有印尼輔助語等這些技術性的證照，那我想請問一下，你是考中文還是用他們的母語考？"],["何部長佩珊：這個就是用他們的母語、也可以輔助考，這個就是便利讓台電現在有的、已經要成為中階技術人才的資深移工考啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他考了這些證照之後就能夠……"],["何部長佩珊：就可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以擔任這個技術性的工作？"],["何部長佩珊：對，委員我要跟您報告，這一種工人的重點在於說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他認定的標準是什麼？只要考試考過了就可以？"],["何部長佩珊：他要取得這個證照。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，取得證照。"],["何部長佩珊：首先他要能看懂嘛，而且他要經過訓練、他要有語言的溝通能力，因為他要跟台電員工溝通，比如他上了電線桿，那下面告訴他要做什麼動作，如果一個不謹慎的話，那真的是會觸電、會死人的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們在考核他們的時候，我們的人也都要懂他們的母語？"],["何部長佩珊：不是、不是！"],["邱委員鎮軍：不然我們怎麼查核？"],["何部長佩珊：是我們用母語輔助他考。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不是用中文考啊。"],["何部長佩珊：有中文，可是同時有母語的輔助、有翻譯的文字在旁邊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這是關於安全的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：對！"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們未來要怎麼查核？怎麼讓這個事情執行得更好？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，也是因為這樣，所以我們對這部分的開放非常慎重，我現在就是沒有開放他直接從外面引進移工來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我們也擔心我們培養的這些人才萬一留不住，他拿到證照之後跑掉怎麼辦？"],["何部長佩珊：這就是台電要去努力的啊！可能要用比較高的薪水，台電其實是願意花多一點錢的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它是花錢培養沒錯。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我擔心的是這些人才我們留不住。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這就是我們企業要去努力的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我們大家一起努力啦！好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛我講的這些問題，請部長你回去還是要多注重一下他們在執行上安全的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：會，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外我再來請問一下，在我們114年的中央總預算整體評估報告其中有一點就直接點出勞保基金財務的壓力，在裡面有講到：「允宜儘速完成周妥財務改善方案及法制作業」，你們的業務報告也說未來工作的重點也是這個，要開源維持勞保財務的穩健。我看到從109年開始就撥補，在113年、114年都編了1,200億，又額外編列300億的預算，分了3年，等於這幾年我們中央總共補助了3,870億元，這個金額是非常嚇人的。我看了你們穩健財務的方式大概是撥補、想辦法增加保險的人口，還有投資、調整保費，看起來撥補還是占大部分。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：那今年1,300億，明年1,300億，然後呢？未來怎麼辦？一直補嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們在補了3,870億之後，今年的餘額已經來到1兆1,000億了，目前基金很安全，所以這是有成效的，而且撥補的成效是占主要的，世界各國都是這麼做的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你的意思就是說以後不會出問題了？"],["何部長佩珊：並不是說以後不會出問題，我們審慎處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果不會出問題，你幹嘛還要撥補？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然就是因為可能會出問題，所以我們一定要撥補嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！所以你說現在很安全，只是在你任期內很安全，對不對？你是不是這樣講？在你的任期內，你認為：只要我卸任了之後就沒有我的事了。"],["何部長佩珊：不是這個意思，委員，我們要對我們的政府有信心，這是永續發展的，任何黨派執政，即便政黨再輪替，我想都會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，因為我看到勞動部跟經濟部兩個部會在比誰的洞比較大。"],["何部長佩珊：健保嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，跟經濟部，就是我們的台電，對啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，那是不一樣的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是都是缺錢啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我們再來看這個保費，我看到你們那個調整的方式，就是112年的勞保費率是12%，兩年調一次。"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在是11.5%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在是11.5%？"],["何部長佩珊：對，明年會調到11.5%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：明年調到11.5%？"],["何部長佩珊：對，明年調到11.5%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那114年就要調到多少？"],["何部長佩珊：12%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：12%。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的天花板是13%，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我們那個天花板是12%，加就保才是13%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那就是12%嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是說，我們在賴總統的任內就會達到，就能夠衝到天花板？"],["何部長佩珊：12%嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["何部長佩珊：這個是法定的，因為我們就是每兩年調一次，一次調0.5%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要講的就是，我們明年就要邁入超高齡的社會，那未來給付的年金會越來越多，我們的人口紅利到2028年就沒有了，大家都知道啦！我也看到一個專家學者說：我們越晚開始改革，就要花更多的成本，部長，您的看法是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們已經在改革了，除了撥補以外，當然我們也希望能夠推動比如今年委員也共同推動的勞基法第五十四條修正案，我們希望能夠一方面推動中高齡者就業，然後也推動自然延退。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是一個大問題，請部長還是要趕快把辦法想出來，儘快改善這個問題，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後我再問一個問題，我們看到81歲以上巴氏量表的解套，對象裡面有一個是80歲以上且有長期就醫紀錄的被看護者，這個以後就免巴氏量表對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：那是委員的修法案。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，是我們現在提的，您會朝這個方向走嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們比較不希望用年齡來劃分，因為如果用年齡來劃分的話，會導致……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你們為什麼會寫80歲以上呢？是我們修法的問題嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這是80歲以上長期有就醫，他是真正有病，還是要以有病為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！已經80歲了，誰會沒病呢？沒病的人很少啦！我想要問的就是，你說長期的就醫是指一般的慢性疾病還是怎麼樣？這個定義是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：對，慢性疾病。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是高血壓、糖尿病這種病？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這也算嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有，就是我們跟衛福部一起訂這一個就醫的標準。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個辦法還沒有出來，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：這個是還在研究當中，還在跟衛福部研議，是在擴大多元免評。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，你們儘快好不好？我不要占用其他人的時間，你們儘快把這個事情弄清楚，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝主席。"],["主席（林委員淑芬代）：好，下一位我們請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}