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這個用船運或者用電纜線都是在國際上面那麼有專家學者都已經報告過了也是也實驗在進行中的這個他是實驗進行中不是執行中嘛所以本席要提點你半年內您剛才承諾的半年要去討論是否可涉這一個那麼也就是說在民眾的疑慮你也必須納入去考量"},{"start":278.547,"end":293.855,"text":"不要再來一個不同調上一次因為0.95的健保行政院長跟邱部長不同調那麼在現在鄭文森董事長坐在這邊那麼他已經說了你中南部這樣子他耗損是"},{"start":296.016,"end":322.295,"text":"是不太可能的在這樣的一個情況之下臺電目前所面臨的困境那又來一個不同調的這個郭部長跟曾董事長本期不希望看到這樣子所以我們提點將你這一些民眾的疑慮希望能夠納入去考慮深思熟慮深思熟慮這是非常的重要所以本期再度請教"},{"start":323.095,"end":351.821,"text":"您有這個啟發啟想的目的是要為了讓我們的廠商需要綠電的人能夠能夠得到電還是為了其他的因素呢報告委員我們在這個目前2030年之前的目標我想這個您都非常的清楚但是我們有一個很大的目標是2050年我們必須要淨零減碳這個是全球的議題"},{"start":353.123,"end":380.165,"text":"那麼全球的議題在所有民主聯盟裡面的國家大家都在討論如何來互相協助進行檢探我剛才在講的菲律賓設電廠也不見得是我們台電去設電廠我剛才講的海嵐跟海船也不見得是台灣去設海嵐好這就是本期要請問你的您的發想要到菲律賓去建電廠出資者到底是誰是政府還是廠商"},{"start":382.907,"end":384.908,"text":"所以我認為這個是這樣的就是說可能我說話不夠精準這一點我很抱歉"},{"start":409.141,"end":431.7,"text":"實際的狀況就是我剛才所跟您報告的就是這個樣子也就是說我們希望在那邊有電廠可以把綠電我們也可能買得到這一些綠電它的電源供給給這個那我們的目的也是要跟世界接軌嗎未來您的問題要跟環境部再拉嗎再討論所以本期跟一個"},{"start":433.547,"end":435.773,"text":"一個方向也就是說全球"},{"start":438.343,"end":465.175,"text":"發布要擔任部長的時候我非常的讚許因為你說了一句話核電是乾淨的能源不管怎麼樣再轉再變這個是不變的事實因為微軟亞馬遜Google黃元勳他們極力都在買核電對不對是不是是他是啊他是而且黃元勳還講啊黃董還講說核電是非常好的能源是不是"},{"start":466.81,"end":476.238,"text":"一段我不知清楚那在這樣的一個情況之下我給你一個數字也就是你在112年你預計要買的是189億度是1047億"},{"start":484.224,"end":488.066,"text":"人民的錢113年現在是234億度是1286億在你114年你是要買286億度所以你要花預計是1546億元那在這樣的情況之下我們給你算了這個基本的成本 風電"},{"start":508.716,"end":515.063,"text":"風跟光你在112年是5.5元113年現在5.4元你預估的明年度還是5.4元核電的部分成本是1.16元風電4.6億元光電3.75元你們都告訴我們"},{"start":528.237,"end":532.541,"text":"我們會逐年地來降但是實際上你所編出來數字會講話它是不降的所以你政策性跟你實質的編列預算它是不吻合的部長本期不希望看到這樣子因為你來自產業你一直點頭我知道你心裡也很急"},{"start":549.358,"end":549.378,"text":"請說明"},{"start":577.62,"end":583.283,"text":"降價的部分我們會來努力我想我們會我透過管理的這個機制我會來努力透過管理你怎麼管理你怎麼管理你的編列預算難怪預算要重溢"},{"start":594.409,"end":595.93,"text":"請你!一家公司的這個價格他基本上就是從他的成本上面來看"},{"start":623.384,"end":623.545,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":639.361,"end":654.413,"text":"你現在是經濟部長一個政策你齊發齊想就公布出來讓民眾你來道歉我們很緊張我們也願意接受你的道歉半年後給我們答案第二個你說要從管理所以本期給你一個功課"},{"start":655.214,"end":657.895,"text":"你應該因為你說了如果兩年後台電還是漲價你要走人這不是一個有為的政務官應當有的擔當而是你應該要好好的努力去讓他達到怎麼樣的財務健全你認不認同 對不對所以本席給你一個功課你應該要提出財務的管理改革"},{"start":678.423,"end":704.634,"text":"電價以及能源發展未來這幾年的明確規劃同時為了全民的事宜你要將兩年內讓台電的財務健全要告訴大家你怎麼具體的作為每年的改革這個方案目標到底是什麼所以我具體建議你2030年要達到這個燃氣的五成再生能源三成每"},{"start":705.794,"end":707.755,"text":"是兩層這是你的目標剛才你說的但是你也應該要把光電風電天然氣的電廠接收站以及你有關的這個發電量建設進度你要逐年的公布逐年的公布"},{"start":723.539,"end":743.973,"text":"列出你每一年的進度跟這個目標才能夠真正的整體性的一個統整你贊不贊成本席的建議謝謝委員指教那你謝謝我的指教就是認同認同你就是要做你剛剛說的管理本席所給你的建議你多久時間去統整一份資料給我們"},{"start":746.175,"end":753.481,"text":"因為你的預算跟實際政策都不同還好現在充裕你趕快趁著充裕的時間趕快去調整好嗎所以剛剛說的那個你多久時間可以這樣計劃給本金我會就那個同意的內容去調整好那多久時間可以跟我們基本上這個我想這個我還要跟所有的幹部啊大家溝通然後形成共識這個我看大概也要半年吧"},{"start":774.721,"end":777.422,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:03:18 - 10:16:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時3分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好，對於電全球都非常的關注，當然我也看到你在努力，想盡一切辦法要怎麼樣讓我們臺灣的電是足夠而且不缺的，所以本席要請教，因為我們在媒體上看到您說，你的發想是有關到菲律賓蓋綠電廠，您也說了要透過AIT的協助，在鄰近的菲律賓或日本來興建綠電廠，再經由船運或海底電纜線運回來臺灣，供需要綠電的廠商來使用。請問第一個問題，你預計要投資多少的預算規模？第二，這個發想到底是誰的發想？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們在民主區域聯盟分享綠能，因為綠能在未來2050年淨零減碳這個命題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個發想是誰發想的呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我個人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那有沒有經過團隊的討論？因為您是經濟部長啊，您在媒體上這樣說，大家一定認為這是真的，所以本席要請教目前的進度、規模是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為我講得不夠精準，所以造成媒體的誤解，這個我感到非常的抱歉，也對委員感到抱歉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那是沒這回事囉？"],["郭部長智輝：不是沒有這回事，我確實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還是只有天方夜譚？"],["郭部長智輝：確實我現在在想這個，然後我們來提出，讓專家繼續來討論、學者繼續來研究，做這個可行性分析。我想我們不會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哦！你有KPI嗎？可行性分析什麼時候會分析出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在開始尋求這一方面的專家，包括台電內部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，你預估多久可以評估出來要做或不做？應該會有這樣的答案。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道我們的專家、學者可以多快給我，但是這個命題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的目標呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我的目標當然是越快越好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：越快越好，是一個月、三個月、半年還是一年？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這麼重要的一件事情，絕對不是兩、三個月可以達到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那多久時間呢？總是要有一個目標。"],["郭部長智輝：以我的經驗，我希望半年內可以有一個比較完整的計畫產生，到時候我會讓委員來指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們這個議題就是您的發想，您說是你個人，也希望專家、學者大家一起來討論可行性，預估需要半年的時間。在此本席要繼續跟你討論，您說要利用電纜線和船運，這是你的想法，目前我們台電在6月份的時候也曾經說過，如果中南部輸電給北部，它的耗損是有困難的，是影響很大的，光在我們國內，這樣幾十公里就會有困難，那麼您的奇發奇想是用船運，如果又碰到SARS等疫情，港口封起來，您說要用船運、要用電纜線。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，用船運或用電纜線在國際上有專家學者都已經報告過了，也是實驗在進行中的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：它是實驗進行中，但不是執行中，所以本席要提點你，您剛才承諾半年內要去討論是否可設，也就是說，民眾的疑慮你也必須納入考量，不要再來一個不同調，上一次因為0.95的健保，行政院長跟邱部長不同調，現在曾文生董事長坐在這邊，他已經說了中南部這樣子耗損是不太可能的，在這樣的情況之下，台電目前面臨困境，又來一個不同調的郭部長跟曾董事長，本席不希望看到這樣子，所以我們提點你這些民眾的疑慮，希望能夠納入去考慮、深思熟慮，這非常的重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席再度請教，您有突發奇想的目的，是為了要讓需要綠電的廠商能夠得到電，還是為了其他的因素呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們2030年之前的目標，我想您都非常的清楚，但是我們有一個很大的目標是2050年必須要淨零減碳，這個是全球的議題。那麼全球的議題在所有民主聯盟裡面的國家，大家都在討論如何來互相協助淨零減碳，我剛才在講的菲律賓設電廠也不見得是我們台電去設電廠，我剛才講的海纜跟海船也不見得是臺灣去設海纜、海船……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這就是本席要請問你的，您的發想要到菲律賓去建電廠，出資者到底是誰，是政府還是廠商？"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國內廠商還是國際廠商？"],["郭部長智輝：不是國內，國際。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國際就是開放式的嘛！是嗎？您的……"],["郭部長智輝：應該是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼應該？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我現在還沒有確定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛才給我們委員道歉，你不是給委員道歉，你應該給全民道歉耶！我們早上一看到這個訊息，哇，大家好緊張喔！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我認為是這樣子，可能我說話不夠精準，這一點我很抱歉，但是實際的狀況就是我剛才跟您報告的，就是這個樣子，也就是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以你擬的方式是國際嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望在那邊有電廠，可以把綠電……我們也可能買得到這些綠電……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目標是如此嘛！好。"],["郭部長智輝：它的電也……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的目的也是要跟世界接軌嘛！未來您的碳的問題要跟環境部再討論，所以本席給你一個方向，也就是說全球……您發布要擔任部長的時候，我非常的讚許，因為您說了一句話，核電是乾淨的能源，不管怎麼樣再轉、再變，這個是不變的事實……"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為微軟、亞馬遜、Google、黃仁勳他們極力都在買核電，對不對？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是啊！而且黃仁勳還講，黃董還說核電是非常好的能源，是不是？是嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這一段我不清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個你要聽清楚，是，在這樣的情況之下，我給你一個數字，你在112年預計要買189億度，是1,047億人民的錢；113年現在是234億度，是1,286億；114年你要買286億度，所以你預計要花1,546億元。在這樣的情況之下，我們給你算風光電的基本成本，112年是5.5元，113年現在是5.4元，你預估明年度還是5.4元；核電的部分成本是1.16元，風電4.61元，光電3.75元。你們都告訴我們會逐年的降，但是實際上你所編出來的數字會講話，它是不降的，所以你政策性跟實質編列的預算是不吻合的！","部長，本席不希望看到這樣子，因為你來自產業，你一直點頭，我知道你心裡也很急，也很希望政策性能夠落實在數字告訴民眾，對不對？所以我非常理性的跟你討論，世界各國都在搶買核電，它的價格是多少？我國告訴我們會降，但是你沒有降，而且逐步在增加，在這樣的情況之下，你怎麼對得起我們民眾呢？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的政策到底哪裡出了問題？你的綠電缺口到底有多大？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：降價的部分我們會來努力，我想我們會透過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預算編列就沒降啊！"],["郭部長智輝：透過管理的機制，我會來努力……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：透過管理，你怎麼管理？你編列預算……難怪預算要重議！你的政策跟預算的數字是不吻合的，我把這個功課給你，你要怎麼去管理、你要怎麼去降價？從上會期講到這會期就是要降價，但是給我們的答案、編出來的預算是不降的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們怎麼有辦法接受呢？"],["郭部長智輝：如果說要討論這個部分，我可以來跟你完整討論，就是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你……"],["郭部長智輝：一家公司的價格，基本上就是從它的成本上面來看；第二個，從它的經營上面來看，我會去討論如何讓台電整個成本可以下降，然後操作成本這屬於管理面的話，我也會努力跟所有的幹部來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會努力，我們願意相信，但是部長，你現在不是董事長，你現在是經濟部長，一個政策你突發奇想就公布出來，讓民眾……你來道歉，我們很緊張，我們也願意接受你的道歉，半年後給我們答案。第二個，你說要從管理，所以本席給你一個功課，因為你說了如果兩年後台電還是漲價，你要走人，這不是一個有為的政務官應當有的擔當，而是你應該要好好的努力去讓它達到怎麼樣的財務健全，你認不認同？對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席給你一個功課，你應該要提出財務的管理改革、電價以及能源發展未來這幾年的明確規劃，同時為全民釋疑，你兩年內要讓台電的財務健全，要告訴大家你的具體作為，每年改革的方案目標到底是什麼。我具體建議，你2030年要達到燃氣五成、再生能源三成、煤兩成，這是你的目標，剛才你說的。但是你也應該要把光電、風電、天然氣的電廠、接收站，以及有關的發電量建設進度，逐年的公布，列出你每一年的進度跟目標，才能夠真正整體性的統整，你贊不贊成本席的建議？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你謝謝我的指教就是認同，你認同就是要做，你剛才說的管理，本席給你的建議，你多久時間去統整一份資料給我們？因為你的預算跟實際政策都不同，還好現在重議，你趕快趁著重議的時間去調整，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以剛剛說的那個，你多久時間可以將計畫給本席？"],["郭部長智輝：您同意以後，我會就同意的內容去調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，多久時間可以給我們？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上我想我還要跟所有的幹部溝通……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，沒關係，你給我一個時間。"],["郭部長智輝：然後形成共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是、是、是。"],["郭部長智輝：我看大概也要半年吧。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不用半年啦！3個月先將你們的這些方案，你不趕快納入，再半年你又來不及了，預算執行啊！3個月好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝是怎麼樣，好不好？"],["主席：好，就3個月，部長回去趕快做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們希望台電不能倒，但是要讓台電真正有能量啊！好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}