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發然後我們在實施駕駛的節能駕駛"},{"start":358.567,"end":359.748,"text":"李昆澤李昆澤"},{"start":378.968,"end":379.088,"text":"：李昆澤"},{"start":401.379,"end":427.205,"text":"這麼多年來我對高鐵的票價我一直堅持一個原則十幾年來都是這樣高鐵的問題是運量不是票價所以這麼多年來我們要求高鐵要設立自由做相關的優惠措施這個也成為高鐵在營運的一個重要的比例那這個部分"},{"start":429.977,"end":453.087,"text":"我們高鐵現在在討論到票價的調整那我覺得啊人台鐵是艱苦人家在那說要調整票價社會認為有討論的空間那你高鐵看人吃米粉你也在那化修也要說一下存在感說我們也要調整相關的票價我們目前還沒有提出最好是這樣"},{"start":455.558,"end":482.693,"text":"部長我認為在明年的農曆春節之前相關的高鐵跟台鐵尤其是高鐵這個票價讓社會來討論你們也必須在明年的農曆春節之前必須要提出具體的我們針對台鐵的安全性針對台鐵的準點服務的效率相關電力的一個提升我們有什麼具體的做法"},{"start":484.514,"end":507.308,"text":"要跟人民多說一塊錢,都是很嚴肅的事情對,我們會清楚做好說明好,那我們剛才討論到相關的電費的問題啊我們電費啊,我們來看依照台鐵公司的預算書還有高鐵的年度財務的這樣一個報告書台鐵電費的總支出是29億那佔營業支出是6.6高鐵的電費總支出是24億那佔營業支出是8.7"},{"start":514.502,"end":530.708,"text":"那現在電費要調整那高鐵台鐵預估要增加4.56億就是支出會再增加1%那高鐵會增加3.2億到3.6億這是預估支出會再增加1.15%但是"},{"start":534.039,"end":554.924,"text":"部長 台鐵跟高鐵的營業收入不一樣 差蠻多的台鐵的今年上半度營收是157億那對比去年增加了大概10億高鐵蠻強的 今年上半營收就265億對比去年增加了20億"},{"start":556.664,"end":557.465,"text":"臺鐵電費調整會影響到票價?"},{"start":574.847,"end":576.248,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":594.906,"end":596.407,"text":"市佔率提升,你們的營收就更多,這是不變的原則。"},{"start":625.567,"end":646.264,"text":"對那新北市大概是28%那新北市以南都是個位數對我們要提升這種大眾運輸的市佔率台北37%你以為很高嗎你知道東京香港新加坡八成以上"},{"start":648.295,"end":666.174,"text":"韓城的首爾、韓國的首爾也有56%以上我們的大眾運輸我們要鼓勵民眾去使用大眾運輸然後票價調整是很嚴肅的事情你票價調整那民眾就說那麼貴那我就不要使用大眾運輸了"},{"start":667.395,"end":692.866,"text":"大眾醫書要鼓勵大家去使用這個我們特別注意這個要特別注意我們對於列車準點安全改善服務品質能源效率的短中長期目標都要落實而且提出改善的目標你才有調整票價的依據的所以部長在明年春節以前台鐵的票價不會去做變動嗎春節之前不會高鐵都不會嘛"},{"start":693.866,"end":719.845,"text":"高鐵我目前還沒有看到報告高鐵還沒有提案還沒有提案那你就想提案喔我會啊我們希望我們希望高鐵還是要負起公共運輸的責任因為政府幫高鐵非常大的忙特許年限35年延到70年這是2015年還有相關的採改關股放關股的挹注這個社會責任那高鐵其實"},{"start":722.571,"end":722.591,"text":"謝謝委員："}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:35:19 - 09:47:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":105,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時35分）謝謝陳素月召委。請一下陳世凱部長、杜微董事長、江耀宗董事長還有陳文瑞局長，還有林福山司長也上來一下。"],["主席：請陳部長、杜微董事長，還有陳文瑞局長，還有江董事長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長你好。現在因為電價的調漲，臺鐵跟高鐵對於票價的調漲已經有一定的討論，我在過去針對票價的調漲，就是一個重要的原則，我們要向人民多收一塊錢，都要以最嚴肅的態度說明清楚，以及要達到的預期目標，這是重要的原則。臺鐵跟高鐵有跟你報告有關票價調漲的問題嗎？目前有跟你說明、報告嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：臺鐵之前有跟我們討論過票價調漲的問題，但是那個跟電價無關，在之前就有討論過，我相信李部長在社會上也時常在對外表達過有好幾次的討論了。高鐵的部分……"],["李委員昆澤：臺鐵的部分，大家、社會已經有共識了，認為臺鐵的票價29年沒有調整，的確已經進入有討論的空間，這個部分社會基本上能夠接受這有討論的空間。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：高鐵的部分，社會又有不一樣的看法。我先請教一下臺鐵杜微董事長，我們明年的電價成本預計要增加4.56億，之前我看新聞或是相關的資料，你們說大概要增加2.28億，為什麼有這個差距？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個預估有包含我們臺鐵要在明年度以及現在的努力，就是有兩個方向，一個是我們要努力去節電，度數把它減少；另外一個……"],["李委員昆澤：我知道，我在問你的是，你們跟媒體說，明年的電力漲幅會增加，臺鐵的支出增加2.28億，後來發覺自己搞錯了，應該是增加4.56億，為什麼呢？因為你們自己就搞混了，這個電力的調漲有14%，還有7%，還有凍漲，記者在問你們相關電費的調整，你們應該屬於491這個代碼，就是鐵路運輸業，然後你們跟記者講的是陸上運輸業，它是499的代碼；499的代碼，這個是有7%，但是鐵路運輸業就沒有這個7%的優惠，你們自己就搞錯了。記者問你們，你們說自己是7%的電費，但其實是14%，杜董事長，你是個很認真的董事長沒有錯，但是臺鐵內部的安全文化跟問題意識，真的讓社會大眾很失望，會少一個車廂，然後問你自己電價是屬於7%或14%，也搞不清楚，這個真的是要檢討。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：那你們預計會開董事會來討論票價的調整方案嗎？"],["杜董事長微：現在票價的調整方案我們還在做研議，做一些調整，我們做好以後會提報董事會。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，對於臺鐵票價調整，我認為有討論的空間，但是你們對於安全、對於準點、對於電力效能的一個提升，相關的這些必須要跟社會大眾講，我們要做到什麼目標。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個部分，臺鐵在跟我討論票價的時候，我第一個要求也是這個樣子，要讓社會、要讓民眾感覺到服務的提升、安全的提升。針對這次電的問題也是一樣，我的要求是不應該把電的漲價，直接的反映、直式的反映就是票價要調漲，並不是這個樣子，我們要先做節電，而他們的節電其實是有效率的，在113年也獲得了能源局的補助、台電的補助，有四千五百多萬的補助，我們也節電了百分之一點五左右，在明年，我也特別拜託經濟部的能源署，要特別專案輔導臺鐵……"],["李委員昆澤：做得不好的，我們要給予指責跟督促，但是對於電力效能的提升，臺鐵是有在做，你們現在也要更新相關的電車線以及光纖的系統設備，也要做提升，這個對於相關電力的提升上，我認為大概可以省下153萬度電力，這個有在做啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分有在努力。"],["李委員昆澤：相關電力跟成本等一下我們再來討論。","高鐵的部分，董事長，你們的想法是怎樣？"],["江董事長耀宗：因為電價調漲，我們明年大概會增加電費3億6,000萬，當然高鐵對於一些高耗能的設備一直有在汰換，然後我們在實施駕駛的節能駕駛，場站所有LED燈的更換，車站的冰水主機……"],["李委員昆澤：董事長，這個我都清楚。我現在請教一下，高鐵17年來有沒有調整過票價？"],["江董事長耀宗：中間好像有一段短時間調上又調……恢復……"],["李委員昆澤：有，2015年，就是針對特許年限從35年延長到70年，然後政府在相關的官股以及泛官股給予挹注、支持，讓高鐵能夠繼續的永續經營，所以當初是有調整票價，但是後來就又撤回。這麼多年來，對於高鐵的票價，我一直堅持一個原則，十幾年來都是這樣，高鐵的問題是運量不是票價，所以這麼多年來，我們要求高鐵設立自由座等相關優惠措施，這個也成為高鐵在營運中一個重要的比例。","我們高鐵現在在討論到票價的調整，但我覺得，臺鐵是辛苦的，人家在那邊說要調整票價，社會認為有討論的空間，而你們高鐵看人家吃米粉，你們也在那邊喊燙，也要刷一下存在感說你們要調整相關的票價。"],["江董事長耀宗：我們目前還沒有提出。"],["李委員昆澤：最好是這樣。部長，我認為在明年的農曆春節之前，相關的高鐵跟臺鐵……尤其是高鐵的票價，讓社會來討論，你們也必須在明年農曆春節之前提出具體的，針對臺鐵的安全性，針對臺鐵的準點、服務的效率、相關電力的提升，我們有什麼具體的作法？要跟人民多收一塊錢都是很嚴肅的事情。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們會清楚做好說明。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我們剛才討論到電費的相關問題，依照臺鐵公司的預算書以及高鐵年度財務報告書，臺鐵電費的總支出是29億，占營業支出6.6%；高鐵的電費總支出是24億，占營業支出8.7%。現在電費要調整，臺鐵預估要增加4.56億，就是支出會再增加1%；高鐵預估會增加3.2億到3.6億，支出會再增加1.15%。但是部長，臺鐵和高鐵的營業收入不一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：差蠻多的。"],["李委員昆澤：臺鐵今年上半年度的營收是157億，對比去年增加了大概10億；高鐵蠻強的，今年上半年營收就256億，對比去年增加了20億。你說臺鐵電費調整會影響到票價，這個我們可以接受，但是高鐵的票價，電費調整對高鐵來說，你的收入遠高於你要多支出的這些費用，上半年就多賺了20億，而相關的電費增加大概只有3.2億，請董事長說明一下？"],["江董事長耀宗：我想高鐵的營收是跟運量有關，當然營收是有成長，但營運成本也是成長，現況是這樣，謝謝。"],["李委員昆澤：我跟你講，市占率提升，你們的營收就更多，這是不變的原則，提升市占率是我們重要的工作。部長，提升市占率非常重要，你看臺北的大眾運輸很發達，它的市占率大概是37%，新北市大概是28%，新北市以南都是個位數。我們要提升大眾運輸的市占率，臺北37%你以為很高嗎？你知道東京、香港、新加坡都是八成以上，還有韓國首爾也有56%以上，我們要鼓勵民眾使用大眾運輸，票價調整是很嚴肅的事情，你票價調整，民眾就說那麼貴、那我就不要使用大眾運輸了，大眾運輸要鼓勵大家去使用啊！"],["陳部長世凱：這個我會特別注意。"],["李委員昆澤：這個要特別注意，對於列車準點、安全改善、服務品質、能源效率的短中長期目標都要落實，而且提出改善的目標，你才有調整票價的依據。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：所以在明年春節以前，臺鐵的票價不會去變動吧！"],["陳部長世凱：春節之前不會。"],["李委員昆澤：高鐵也都不會嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：關於高鐵，我目前還沒有看到報告。"],["江董事長耀宗：高鐵還沒有提案。"],["李委員昆澤：還沒有提案？那就是想提案囉！"],["陳部長世凱：不會啦，我們希望高鐵還是要負起公共運輸的責任。"],["李委員昆澤：因為政府幫高鐵非常大的忙，將特許年限35年延長到70年，這是在2015年，還有相關的財改、官股、泛官股的挹注，這個都有社會責任，高鐵其實不是民間公司，高鐵是準國營公司，要負起更多國家大眾運輸的責任。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：時間的關係，請部長督促，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。接下來邀請林沛祥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}