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謝謝主席我請我們財政部長財政部長"},{"start":14.966,"end":44.309,"text":"委員好部長好我呼應一下剛才我們林彥秀委員所講的中央銀行他明天就要來報告那麼他在中間的打房第七波也做了一些修正那我自己其實我跑財經新聞非常非常久我有跟楊金龍總裁說過我說這次打房的力道事實上是在過去都很少見的當然我也在總諮詢之後提到"},{"start":45.349,"end":68.63,"text":"這一波為什麼要打房是因為台灣的房價漲得太兇了而其中的元兇跟推手之一就是新青安就如同剛才李燕秀委員所講的當然現在新青安包含財政部、央行還有我們現在各行庫去提出了一些補救的措施"},{"start":70.011,"end":85.997,"text":"但是我覺得不應該讓這些炒房的惡果房教高深的惡果最後給一些他其實並沒有在炒房雖然他可能有兩棟房子他要第二棟去做貸款"},{"start":87.077,"end":103.469,"text":"所以還好中央銀行現在針對一些繼承的部分在總諮詢我就特別提到有很多是繼承的有很多他的主產是在中南部但是他在北部打拼他可能在北部因為孩子要上學或者他就業的關係"},{"start":105.35,"end":124.219,"text":"他要買第二戶但是呢他就變成被打房的目標對象這是非常不合理的事情另外我也要提醒部長還有現場的我們的公營行庫因為我知道其實絕大部分的行庫在房貸的部分事實上都已經幾乎到頂了"},{"start":125.855,"end":133.563,"text":"現在雖然緩和一些可是到年底也非常有可能另外一波的現代措施因為他們的這個額度已經幾乎都到不管是央行的規定還有這個我們原來財政部的相關的規定金管會的規定他們幾乎都會到了一定的程度所以這一點也拜託"},{"start":147.938,"end":169.839,"text":"不要讓其實是他是非常合理他沒有在炒房的這些購屋者然後他去承受這樣的打擊跟苦果好那今天其實主要討論我們那個就是當沖稅率部長在之前啊我也都特別提到好時間暫停一下我請金管會今天是副主委來嗎好時間暫停"},{"start":179.639,"end":188.945,"text":"部長還有副主委我大概是在立法院極為少數極極極少數的委員提到我們當沖稅率一降再降是有問題的一個是之前今天賴氏堡委員特別提到明明法在那邊我們可以一言再言然後降稅長達十年你們繼續言下去長達十年請問一下中華民國的稅制是怎樣"},{"start":207.714,"end":229.243,"text":"如果你覺得應該要修法就去修法怎麼可能用這樣的階段性階段性的一言再言什麼時候落日呢稅制之破壞莫此為慎我也很遺憾啊我本來跟部長講我願意站在你們這邊結果你們自己要退讓啊然後你自己都要退讓我還要當唯一的黑臉嗎"},{"start":234.864,"end":250.995,"text":"但是身為立法委員我還是要講出這樣的事實好來請問一下副主委金管會一再的要求要降再當沖這個稅率減半繼續調降你們基的理由是什麼是活絡市場嗎"},{"start":253.109,"end":270.963,"text":"是委員因為基本上的話其實根據目前的一個數據剛剛有提到對於不管是市場的交易量流動性以及政府的稅收就是整體而言是都是往上的都是往上的那你機關會管稅收喔你別扯了"},{"start":273.124,"end":285.079,"text":"請問一下是不是要活絡那個市場交易?是,其實是。好,那如果我們日均量已經達到4千億、5千億還要再活絡,活絡到什麼程度你們才甘心呢?你們才滿意呢?"},{"start":288.086,"end":309.058,"text":"其實因為我們目前為止我們剛剛委員有提到我們要打亞洲其實我們對於國際的成交量目前為止仍然是有差距但我也知道這種事不能把這個當成一個長久的一個比喻要延長到十年還不長久嗎?十年不夠長久嗎?不是十個月唷我要講的就是你儘管會"},{"start":314.899,"end":339.842,"text":"這個市場吃上馬飛之後啊太好吃了要繼續吃即便我們覺得在不管是在交易量活絡市場或者事實上我過去也曾經指出其實大部分的人是虧錢啊少部分的人才賺錢啊國庫有沒有賺錢有啦因為政府是唯一的莊家嘛"},{"start":340.782,"end":359.005,"text":"可是第一個這破壞稅制第二個以活絡市場來講從你當時為什麼要這個當初來降稅是因為活絡市場當時有它的背景包含疫情的關係包含整個的市場不好的關係在我們實施的時候"},{"start":360.273,"end":380.212,"text":"日均量在一千億以下我們覺得應該要活絡兩千億你還要活絡三千億你還要活絡現在四千億五千億你還要活絡請問一下我就說請問你的目標在哪裡啊以後七八千億你繼續活絡吧我告訴你因為券商通通都會那個遊說啊繼續降啊"},{"start":384.414,"end":402.73,"text":"對不對財政部也擋不住啊財政部只能把從五年擋成三年而已啊施上去就變成馬非啦那就把馬非法治化好了啊就修法嘛我這邊要凸顯的是第一個機管會的荒謬迫於建商"},{"start":408.388,"end":428.969,"text":"要求然後你們不敢承擔到時候哎呀這個股市不好怎麼辦哪用用用那個什麼要承擔這樣責任然後財政部呢也擋不住沒有肩膀對於維護稅制也沒有你的立場最後就變成這樣子啊奇形怪狀啊"},{"start":431.673,"end":432.793,"text":"時間暫停我請國庫署好時間暫停國庫署還有台九國庫署"},{"start":462.503,"end":463.144,"text":"台酒公司"},{"start":471.806,"end":493.45,"text":"部長、署長我們台酒公司董事長因為是剛剛上任他就是就是奉命行事吧我在這邊特別要講的就是我們台酒在我們的建國啤酒廠有個最重要你們要把它變成你們的總部大樓的一個原來是都更案現在要變成一個改建案這個事情呢其實吵了非常久"},{"start":497.867,"end":522.517,"text":"我要讓部長跟署長知道的是我們台酒公司有一個非常非常重要珍貴的文化資產就是唯一台灣唯一在百年以上的建國啤酒廠它是一個火谷級但是現在因為北克大因為它的效力它以效力不足要求來做分割"},{"start":524.161,"end":538.674,"text":"而現在我知道行政院從當時的鄭文燦副院長到現在的陳經德都一路的殺下去讓台酒公司把他的火股機分割給北科大教育我們都支持但是大家也知道校地各處都有"},{"start":546.874,"end":560.295,"text":"而且現在少子化一大堆的校地都要閒置了所以現在要找校地其實並不困難可是北哥大因為向上了我們這個建國啤酒廠的這塊地死都又要"},{"start":561.605,"end":586.824,"text":"死都要要但是其結果最後它的分割造成一個完整的活股機百年建國啤酒廠的活股機被分割只有頭留在那個我們的台酒建國啤酒廠身體跟腳都要分割給北科大為什麼呢因為他要拿來換容機率合理嗎合理嗎"},{"start":590.805,"end":617.741,"text":"所以部長這個地其實那個國庫署應該知道了我要講的是我前兩天開記者會我很不高興的是我們不應該偷跑先去做分割我也知道這樣的一個政策是來自於行政院由上而下的交辦可是這是非常不合理的同樣我真的拜託包含行政院包含台九要有肩膀"},{"start":619.666,"end":644.909,"text":"這是你們的資產你在報告裡面還說你要什麼要保存文化資產文化資產在你這邊你都去送給人啊所以請你未來在行政院不管是陳金德不然以後不管以後的副院長跑來跟你講說要分割你都要講說一個好好的文化資產為什麼要把它大卸八塊可不可以"},{"start":646.837,"end":671.055,"text":"可以嗎?跟委員報告有關文化資產的保存這絕對要重視而且必須依照文資法的規定要提出有關修復跟再利用的計畫這個絕對是非常嚴謹的那第二個對於目前這一塊土地內政部正在都市計畫的審議當中那相關的審議當然要按照審議的結果來做處理我想這個部分我們應該要尊重都市計畫的審議的結果來做處理所以啦"},{"start":676.021,"end":702.01,"text":"都審會都還沒審啊十月二十四號他們準備強行過關啊他們準備準備啊對不起十月二十二號他們準備強行過關但是我希望我們的財政部我們的台九還是要有一些擔當啊自己的文資唯一的耶北科大效益卓著他要有校舍也OK"},{"start":703.928,"end":718.694,"text":"臺灣這麼多地為什麼非要去找一個一個唯一的百年啤酒廠的一個這個文資地區好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝王洪輝委員接著我們請李坤城委員執行"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:40:52 - 10:52:56","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時40分）謝謝主席，我請我們財政部長。"],["主席：財政部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。我呼應一下剛才我們李彥秀委員所講的，中央銀行明天就要來報告，他在中間的打房第七波也做了一些修正，我自己其實跑財經新聞非常非常久，我有跟楊金龍總裁說過，我說這次打房的力道事實上在過去都很少見，當然我也有在總質詢時提到，這一波為什麼要打房？是因為臺灣的房價漲得太兇了，而其中的元兇跟推手之一就是新青安，就如同剛才李彥秀委員所講的。當然現在新青安包含財政部、央行，還有現在各行庫提出了一些補救的措施，但是我覺得不應該讓這些炒房的惡果、房價高升的惡果，最後給一些他其實並沒有在炒房，雖然他可能擁有兩棟房子，他要第二棟去做貸款，所以還好中央銀行現在針對一些繼承的部分，在總質詢我就特別提到，有很多是繼承的，有很多他的祖產是在中南部，但是他在北部打拚，他可能在北部，因為孩子要上學，或者他就學、就業的關係，他要買第二戶，但是他就變成被打房的目標對象，這是非常不合理的事情。另外，我也要提醒部長，還有現場的各公營行庫，因為我知道其實絕大部分的行庫在房貸的部分，事實上都已經幾乎到頂了，現在雖然緩和一些，可是到年底也非常有可能有另外一波的限貸措施，因為他們的額度已經幾乎都到了，不管是央行的規定，還有原來財政部的相關規定、金管會的規定，他們幾乎都會到一定的程度，所以這一點也拜託，不要讓這些非常合理、沒有在炒房的購屋者去承受這樣的打擊跟苦果。","今天其實主要討論的是當沖稅率，部長，之前我也都特別提到，好！時間暫停一下，我請金管會，今天是副主委來嘛！"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，還有副主委，我大概是在立法院極為少數，極極極少數的委員提到我們當沖稅率一降再降是有問題的，今天賴士葆委員也特別提到，明明法在那邊，我們可以一延再延，然後降稅長達10年，你們繼續延下去長達10年，請問一下中華民國的稅制是怎樣？如果你覺得應該要修法就去修法，怎麼可能用這樣的階段性一延再延，什麼時候落日呢？稅制之破壞莫此為甚。我也很遺憾，我本來跟部長講我願意站在你們這邊，結果你們自己要退讓，然後你自己都要退讓，我還要當唯一的黑臉嗎？但是身為立法委員，我還是要講出這樣的事實。請問一下副主委，金管會一再的要求要降，當沖的稅率減半，繼續調降，你們基於的理由是什麼？是活絡市場嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，委員，基本上，根據剛剛提到的數據，不管就市場的交易量、流動性以及政府的稅收而言，整體都是往上的，當然……"],["王委員鴻薇：金管會管稅收嗎？別扯了！請問一下，是不是要活絡市場交易？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，其實……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，如果我們的日均量已經達到4,000億、5,000億，還要再活絡，那要活絡到什麼程度你們才甘心呢？你們才滿意呢？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：剛剛委員有提到我們要打亞洲盃，但目前為止，我們和國際的成交量仍然有差距，我也知道不能把這個當成長久的一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：已經打算延長到10年，還不長久嗎？10年不夠長久嗎？不是10個月唷！我要講的就是，金管會對這個市場是吃上嗎啡之後，因為太好吃，所以要繼續吃，即便我們覺得不管是在交易量、活絡市場，或者我過去曾經指出的，其實大部分的人是虧錢的，只有少部分的人賺錢，國庫有沒有賺錢？有啦！因為政府是唯一莊家嘛！可是第一個，這破壞稅制；第二個，以活絡市場來講，當初為什麼要當沖降稅？是因為活絡市場有其當時的背景，包含疫情的關係，包含整個市場不好的關係，在我們實施的時候，日均量在1,000億以下，我們覺得應該要活絡，2,000億你還要活絡，3,000億你還要活絡，現在4,000億、5,000億，你還要活絡，請問你的目標在哪裡？以後7,000、8,000億，你要繼續活絡嗎？我告訴你，因為券商通通都會遊說繼續降，對不對？財政部也擋不住啊！財政部只能從5年擋成3年而已，吃上去就變成嗎啡了，那你就把嗎啡法制化好了啊！就修法嘛！我這邊要凸顯的是，第一個，金管會的荒謬，迫於券商要求，你們不敢承擔，到時候說，哎呀！股市不好怎麼辦，又要承擔這樣的責任，然後財政部也擋不住，沒有肩膀，對於維護稅制也沒有你們的立場，最後就變成這樣的奇形怪狀啊！部長，我要跟你講，我也不要當什麼唯一的黑臉，你自己財政部的稅制你都不鞏固、不捍衛，我講破嘴有什麼用呢？荒謬啊！","好，另外一個問題，不好意思，副主委可以先回去，時間暫停，我請國庫署，還有臺酒。"],["主席：好，時間暫停，請國庫署、臺酒公司。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、署長，臺酒公司董事長因為是剛剛上任，他就是奉命行事，我在這邊特別要講的是，臺酒的建國啤酒廠有個最重要的事，就是你們要把它變成你們的總部大樓，原來是都更案，現在變成改建案，這個事情其實吵了非常久，我要讓部長跟署長知道的是，臺酒公司有一個非常、非常重要、珍貴的文化資產，那就是臺灣唯一一個有百年以上的建國啤酒廠，它是一個活古蹟，但是現在北科大以其校地不足要求分割。我知道行政院從當時的鄭文燦副院長到現在的陳金德，都是一路殺下去，讓臺酒公司把它的活古蹟分割給北科大。教育我們都支持，但是大家也知道，校地各處都有，而且現在少子化，一大堆閒置校地，所以現在要找校地其實並不困難，可是北科大因為相中了建國啤酒廠的這塊地，死都要要、死都要要，最後結果就是一個完整的活古蹟、百年建國啤酒廠的這個活古蹟要被分割，只有頭留在臺酒建國啤酒廠，身體跟腳都要分割給北科大，為什麼呢？因為要拿來換容積率，這合理嗎？部長，這件事其實國庫署應該知道了，前兩天我開記者會，讓我很不高興的是，你們不應該偷跑先去分割。我也知道這樣的一個政策來自於行政院由上而下交辦，可是這是非常不合理的，我真的要拜託行政院、臺酒，你們要有肩膀，這是你們的資產，你在報告裡還說要保存文化資產，但文化資產在你這邊，你都要去送人了，所以……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：請你未來在行政院，不管是陳金德或是以後的副院長跑來跟你講要分割，你都要說一個好好的文化資產，為什麼要把它大卸八塊？可不可以？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關文化資產的保存，絕對要重視，而且必須依照文資法規定提出有關修復跟再利用的計畫，這絕對是非常嚴謹的。第二個，對於目前這一塊土地，內政部正在都市計畫審議當中，相關的審議，當然要按照審議結果來處理。這個部分我們會尊重都市計畫審議的結果來處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以啦！都審會都還沒審，10月24號他們準備強行過關，他們準備……對不起，10月22號他們準備強行過關，但我希望財政部、臺酒公司還是要有一些擔當，自己的文資、唯一的耶！北科大校譽卓著，它要有校舍也OK，臺灣這麼多地，為什麼非要找一個唯一百年啤酒廠的這個文資地區，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員邱志偉等19\n人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138501_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}