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了上次就有了有什麼樣的這個就他在聯合利建裡面編進來的嗎"},{"start":28.377,"end":50.032,"text":"所以聯合力艦A跟聯合力艦B它是在聯合力艦的這個系統裡面它編進來那我們的因應措施部分在海巡署人力裝備是否足夠因為最近我們也收到很多的陳情關於海巡署的相關的軍備裝備的部分他們有一些疑慮"},{"start":50.712,"end":73.169,"text":"是不是可以幫我們來做一些澄清：從國安的角度評估有沒有建議相關單位競速補齊的問題是海巡署要說的那是什麼各位跟委員報告那有關媒體報導部分海巡署的專業部分特別跟委員這個索米跟澄清那海巡署所有的艦船艇包括我們的所有的裝備它是足夠的"},{"start":73.769,"end":75.97,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":99.74,"end":105.137,"text":"另外我們也準備了第二梯次的預備的兵力所以這個部分請委員放心沒有問題"},{"start":106.048,"end":127.015,"text":"因為呢先前在之前的那個金門事件我們才發現說你們連最基本的這個監視器相關的設備都沒有所以大家才會很擔心說海巡署相關的設備到底買齊了沒所以我順便問一下後來你們相關船隻的監視器以及我們的海巡署的人員的監視器買齊了嗎"},{"start":128.916,"end":133.799,"text":"中國大陸的海警船他們最大的艦級是多少噸?我們台灣最大的艦級是多少噸?4000噸在這麼大的懸殊之下那我們的因應措施是什麼?我們的船比較多或者是我們因應的策略比較好?"},{"start":159.025,"end":160.366,"text":"所以你們的策略就是迅速我知道了"},{"start":181.56,"end":208.887,"text":"接下來問一下蔡局長就是經濟部目前研擬要去菲律賓設置綠電再用船隻跟電纜送過來那郭志輝部長說這是AIT牽線的請問國安局有掌握這個資訊嗎因為是經濟部的業管那他們相關的一個計畫的整備跟推動我們尊重經濟部相關的一個對話說法但是目前配合中共武力演習使用的蟒蛇戰術您認為是否有國安的風險"},{"start":210.8,"end":235.53,"text":"這是美國智庫的一個用語叫蟒蛇戰術那我剛也跟包括陳永康委員在說明中共可能的對台軍事準備的方案有各種的方案那我們對各種方案都會加以延遲那我問的是說設置這樣子的非綠兵設置綠電再用船隻跟電纜送綠電過來根據目前的中共對台的這樣子軍演跟相關的"},{"start":236.65,"end":238.571,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":259.076,"end":282.748,"text":"政府單位運作來講因為我們並不知道他完整方案的規劃是什麼他的傳輸的路徑是什麼他在菲律賓設置的場區在哪裡這必須要有一個全面的評估才有辦法來說明那因為我們還沒有被智慧到去參加相關會議的討論所以我的資訊非常的有限所以說你們在經濟部長提出這樣子規劃可能是那我問你一個問題這有沒有涉及到國安"},{"start":284.403,"end":309.288,"text":"這樣子的規劃有沒有涉及到國安要看它的內容不是嘛你一個電力有沒有涉及到國安嘛臺灣的電力的發送有沒有涉及到國安廣義來講有涉及到關鍵基礎設施有涉及到關鍵基礎設施當然就有涉及到國安那你現在跟我講打這些模糊仗有什麼意思那不是打模糊仗這是因為這個案子還沒有進入政治諮詢的過程"},{"start":310.888,"end":333.523,"text":"他們今天經濟部要推一個方案那這個方案可能會跟國安基礎建設有關係沒有先知會國安局沒有先告訴你們他的方案是什麼然後就擅自的在外面去講這件事情那這樣子請問有其道理可言嗎那有沒有把你們國安局有沒有把我們國家的安全放在眼裡呢這是今天這件事情會引發"},{"start":335.024,"end":356.855,"text":"對﹗那另外﹗不是你們尊重他們的評估的問題﹗你們也要去詢問對方說﹗這到底是怎麼一回事嗎﹗你們如果所有都是只是尊重對方的話﹗那別人都做下去了﹗那你國安單位才發現說這不可以﹗請問要怎麼收回成本﹗大稅錢都花下去的時候﹗那請問你國安局要怎麼樣﹗"},{"start":357.535,"end":363.761,"text":"對,業管單位對外的說明我們尊重在這個階段他怎麼樣做評估那後續假如需要國安局來提供意見我們會積極的來參與那你們要積極的告訴對方詢問他這個事情到底是怎麼回事啊"},{"start":381.596,"end":403.566,"text":"好我們尊重業管單位相關的計畫推動的進程不是你們不是要去尊重對方的計畫是這個事情是會影響到基礎設施的所以你們要去問對方他們到底想幹嘛對有涉及到基礎設施的問題否則人家已經是坐下去了花了預算了跟AIT都溝通好了你們才發現跟國安的事情有問題的時候又把他停下來"},{"start":404.286,"end":413.552,"text":"那這不是就產生了很大的矛盾嗎?瞭解委員的問題啦但問題是很清楚但事實上政府的運動不是像委員講的這樣子會有完整的評估那過去承攬的公司叫做四方電訊"},{"start":420.396,"end":447.266,"text":"我過去就揭露過這家公司跟中國大陸有很多的合作往來的業務未來是否會要求經濟部在海底電纜的合作業務選擇上面不應該跟中共有經貿的往來以保護國家的安全對就關鍵基礎設施來講資安管理法來講確實就關鍵基礎設施的採用的設備相關的零組件都不能有涉入的背景可是現在是這樣子"},{"start":448.815,"end":462.24,"text":"對,假如有真正社會背景的話你就必須要有確實的相關的事證來證明那請問現在我就告訴你現在就是這樣嗎我先前提供過資料給你們看就是如此嗎那請問有沒有要去調整會不會是調整?就是有嗎"},{"start":467.182,"end":495.068,"text":"但我沒有調我不是司法警察機關我沒有調查權那有相關的資訊我們會給司法警察機關那我在給你嘛你自己不查網路上有的東西那我在給你嘛對上次我有提在提問的時候有提到這一點對嘛那我意思是說你做基礎設施的公司那你同時又跟中國大陸有聯繫有一起在做相關的服務那我怎麼知道會不會內神通外鬼這是大家都質疑的事情"},{"start":495.908,"end":515.474,"text":"那接下來我要問一下文化統戰的事那個就不要放在那張powerpoint上面有錯字韓國瑜院長說過那個中華民國是我們的國美麗台灣是我們的家中華文化是我們的根民主自由是我們的寶局長請問你認同這四句話嗎"},{"start":516.474,"end":518.195,"text":"我問第三句中華文化是我們的根這句話請問局長認不認同那我只問中華"},{"start":534.706,"end":549.335,"text":"國安本好你說是這樣對不對可是呢你卻說國安局警示中共文化統戰手法多元前移默化影響臺灣青年你說呢好這個呢中國文化也是一種這個統戰手法"},{"start":551.917,"end":572.129,"text":"那請問中華文化是統戰手法這句話是從何而來我們講的是中共文化的統戰手法多元我們不是講中華文化是一種統戰我剛也在跟馬文君委員說明文化交流跟文化統戰是兩件不一樣的事情你裡面講到坎坷日歷史就是中共統戰是嗎"},{"start":573.61,"end":593.531,"text":"那民國113年就是賴清德總統說的民國113年的歷史裡面有沒有包含抗日我們在談所謂的文化統戰有一個重點跟委員說明有些這種統戰活動它發起的單位就是中共中央的相關單位那是單位的問題但你談到的是舉辦座談研討抗日歷史也算在內啊"},{"start":594.172,"end":600.274,"text":"主辦單位跟相關的議題以及他們討論的角度那很有可能中共就是會透過這些文化的議題來包裝進行相關統戰灌輸中共相關的政治意識形態那我最後再問你幾個例子好不好那我請問一下這個媽祖繞鏡算不算統戰"},{"start":623.598,"end":625.919,"text":"那SHE唱中國話算不算統戰?周杰倫的本草綱目算不算統戰?"},{"start":644.709,"end":647.792,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":664.204,"end":692.475,"text":"委員,文化活動跟文化統戰要分清楚那這個玩黑神話悟空的呢這個有爭議喔有些人認為這是文化統戰的一環電玩它的分級我們尊重業管機關的分級那但是我們需要提醒就那個黑悟空的整個的遊戲出來之後有很多的徵訊操作是在做統戰他們甚至說台灣就是因為沒有中國文化深度才做不出這種東西來這不是統戰什麼叫統戰"},{"start":693.195,"end":707.323,"text":"所以你認為在玩黑悟空的人發表這些言論的算是同戰的言論我講的是正義訊息我不要擴大講成是電亂玩家我再提供沒有最後30秒那愛奇藝使用者跟抖音使用者算不算同戰"},{"start":708.511,"end":724.024,"text":"這一樣的問題我剛剛有提到可是很多的政治人物我們的自己的委員都在立法院裡面看艾茲密的然後跟使用抖音算不算挑戰我會提醒相關中共艾克的其他問題你記得要提醒我們本會的委員國防外交的委員謝謝對要注意治安"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:28+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:29.909500+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請蔡明彥局長跟海巡署署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:29.909500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:31.819000+08:00","text":"兩位請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:31.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:33.981000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，徐委員早。你好。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:34.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:53.155000+08:00","text":"在這個聯合利劍B的軍演當中，中共他們實施軍警一體的新架構，所以這一次他們的海警船也首度納入編組，我方對於對岸的新措施，有什麼樣的這個……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:53.155000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:54.155000+08:00","text":"上次就有了。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:53.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:54.856000+08:00","text":"就是他在聯合利劍裡面編進來的嘛！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:54.856000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:52:56.377000+08:00","text":"對，5月也有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:52:56.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:53:03.802000+08:00","text":"所以聯合利劍A跟聯合利劍B是在聯合利劍系統裡面編進來。對！","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:53:04.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:53:10.347000+08:00","text":"我們的因應措施部分，在海巡署人力、裝備是否足夠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:53:10.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:53:27.418000+08:00","text":"因為最近我們也收到很多的陳情，對於海巡署相關軍備、裝備的部分他們有一些疑慮，是不是可以幫我們來做一些澄清，從國安的角度評估有沒有建議相關單位儘速補齊的問題？好，是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:53:27.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:53:28.039000+08:00","text":"請海巡署來說明。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-10-16T10:53:31.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:53:41.149000+08:00","text":"有關媒體報導海巡署的裝備部分，特別跟委員做一個說明跟澄清，海巡署所有的艦、船、艇，包括我們所有的裝備是足夠的，我們有訂一個武器裝備配賦攜行標準，它根據任務不同會攜行不同的裝備，所以這個部分是沒有問題的。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:07.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:13.137000+08:00","text":"另外，這次中共海警船在臺灣周邊總計出現12艘，但是海巡署就出動了13艘的艦船跟58艘的巡防艇，所以在應對上面是綽綽有餘的，此外，我們也準備了第二梯次的預備兵力，所以這個部分請委員放心，沒有問題！","quality":0.386},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:14.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:35.015000+08:00","text":"好，因為在之前的金門事件，我們才發現你們連最基本的監視器相關設備都沒有，大家才會很擔心海巡署相關的設備到底買齊了沒，所以我順便問一下，後來你們相關船隻的監視器及海巡署人員的監視器買齊了嗎？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:35.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:36.015000+08:00","text":"都配發了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:36.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:37.015000+08:00","text":"到9月之前他們全部都已經配發跟就位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:37.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:38.015000+08:00","text":"全部配發了，已經完成這個部分了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:38.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:39.015000+08:00","text":"全部配發，是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:36.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:37.697000+08:00","text":"因為兩岸海巡艦隊的部分，中國大陸的海警船他們最大的艦級是多少噸？","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:37.697000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:38.697000+08:00","text":"1萬2,000噸，2901號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:37.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:38.277000+08:00","text":"我們臺灣最大的艦級是多少噸？4,000噸。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:38.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:40.098000+08:00","text":"在這麼大的懸殊之下，我們的因應措施是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:40.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:54:41.779000+08:00","text":"是我們的船比較多，或者是我們因應的策略比較好？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-10-16T10:54:41.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:55:07.025000+08:00","text":"特別跟委員說明，那個大不一定好用，尤其在臺灣周邊海域這麼多的淺礁、淺灘，事實上我們海巡署對應中國大陸的海警船，我們採的是快速、迅速、有效，以量來應對中國大陸的海警船。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:55:07.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:55:08.346000+08:00","text":"所以你們的策略就是迅速，我知道了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:55:29.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:55:43.483000+08:00","text":"接下來問一下蔡局長，經濟部目前研擬要去菲律賓設置綠電，再用船隻跟電纜送過來，郭智輝部長說這是AIT牽線的，請問國安局有掌握這個資訊嗎？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:55:43.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:55:50.805000+08:00","text":"因為這個是經濟部的業管，對他們相關計畫的整備跟推動，我們尊重經濟部對外的說法。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:55:51.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:55:56.887000+08:00","text":"但是目前配合中共武力演習使用的蟒蛇戰術，您認為是否有國安的風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:55:58.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:10.425000+08:00","text":"這只是美國智庫的一個用語叫「蟒蛇戰術」，我剛剛也跟包括陳永康委員在說明，中共可能的對臺軍事準備方案有各種的方案，我們對於各種方案都會加以來研析。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:11.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:23.510000+08:00","text":"我問的是在菲律賓設置綠電，再用船隻跟電纜送綠電過來，根據目前中共對臺軍演跟相關的部署，會不會有國安上面的問題？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:23.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:27.437667+08:00","text":"你們的考量是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:27.437667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:31.365333+08:00","text":"好，因為這個案子可能還在規劃當中……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:31.365333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:35.293000+08:00","text":"就如果有這樣的案子的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:35.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:39.220667+08:00","text":"假如有諮詢到國安局的意見，我們會提供我們相關的評估在內部會議來做討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:39.220667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:43.148333+08:00","text":"我現在就在問你嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:43.148333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:56:47.076000+08:00","text":"你覺得你的評估方案，有沒有國安上的問題跟考量？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:56:47.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:03.884000+08:00","text":"就政府單位運作來講，因為我並不知道它完整方案的規劃是什麼，它的傳輸路徑是什麼，它在菲律賓設置的廠區在哪裡，這必須要有一個全面的評估才有辦法來說明，因為我們還沒有被知會到去參加相關會議的討論，所以我的資訊非常有限，請委員可以理解。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:04.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:10.728000+08:00","text":"所以你們在經濟部長提出這樣子的規劃……我問你一個問題，這有沒有涉及到國安？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:12.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:14.003000+08:00","text":"這樣子的規劃有沒有涉及到國安？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:15.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:15.984000+08:00","text":"這要看它的內容。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:16.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:16.864000+08:00","text":"不是嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:18.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:20.164000+08:00","text":"電力有沒有涉及到國安嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:21.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:24.305000+08:00","text":"臺灣電力的發送有沒有涉及到國安問題？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:26.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:27.726000+08:00","text":"廣義來講，有涉及到關鍵基礎設施。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:28.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:31.127000+08:00","text":"有涉及到關鍵基礎設施，當然就有涉及到國安啊！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:31.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:33.847000+08:00","text":"那你現在跟我打這些迷糊仗有什麼意思呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:33.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:37.268000+08:00","text":"不是打迷糊仗，這是因為這個案子還沒有進入正式諮詢的過程。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:39.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:50.056000+08:00","text":"所以我問今天經濟部要推一個方案，這個方案可能會跟國安基礎建設有關係，沒有先知會國安局、沒有先告訴你們其方案是什麼……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:50.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:51.056000+08:00","text":"沒有，政府的討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:50.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:56.100000+08:00","text":"然後就擅自在外面去講這件事情，請問有其道理可言嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:56.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:57:59.582000+08:00","text":"有沒有把你們國安局、有沒有把我們國家的安全放在眼裡呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:57:59.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:00.582000+08:00","text":"這是經濟部的業管。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:00.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:01.523000+08:00","text":"這就是今天這件事情會引發很大爭議的原因之一嘛！","quality":0.409},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:03.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:06.186000+08:00","text":"好，另外……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:06.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:07.186000+08:00","text":"對，這是經濟部的業管，我們尊重他們的評估跟整備計畫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:06.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:13.269000+08:00","text":"不是你們尊重他們評估的問題，你們也要去詢問對方這到底是怎麼一回事嘛！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:13.269000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:14.269000+08:00","text":"對，如果有接受諮詢，我們會提供意見。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:14.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:21.013000+08:00","text":"如果所有事情都只是尊重對方的話，當別人都做下去了，國安單位才發現這不可以，請問要怎麼收回成命？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:22.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:24.855000+08:00","text":"納稅錢都花下去的時候，請問你國安局要怎麼辦？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:24.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:25.855000+08:00","text":"對，可以理解委員的擔心，但政府的運作不是這樣啦！","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:25.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:26.855000+08:00","text":"它一定會有一個評估跟整備的過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:26.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:27.855000+08:00","text":"人家都已經講出去了，公開的論壇大大方方地講，昨天發生的事情啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:27.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:28.855000+08:00","text":"有沒有看新聞？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:25.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:29.599000+08:00","text":"對，業管單位對外的說明我們尊重，在這個階段他怎麼樣做評估，後續假如需要國安局來提供意見，我們會積極來參與。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:29.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:31.741000+08:00","text":"不是，你們要積極的告訴對方、詢問他這個事情到底是怎麼回事啊！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:49.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:58:52.237000+08:00","text":"好，我們尊重業管單位相關計畫推動的進程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:58:52.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:01.301000+08:00","text":"不是，你們不是要去尊重對方的計畫，而是這件事情會影響到基礎設施的，所以你們要去問對方他們到底想幹嘛！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:01.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:02.702000+08:00","text":"對，有涉及到基礎設施，我們會繼續注意。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:02.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:15.168000+08:00","text":"否則人家已經做下去了，花了預算了，跟AIT都溝通好了，你們才發現在國安上有問題的時候，又把它停下來，這不是就產生了很大的矛盾嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:15.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:16.028000+08:00","text":"瞭解委員的問題啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:17.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:20.191000+08:00","text":"問題是很清楚，但事實上政府的運作不是像委員講的這樣子，我們會完整的評估。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:20.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:43.561000+08:00","text":"好，我接下來問，先前的5G電纜部分也涉及到基礎設施，過去承攬的公司叫作是方電訊，我過去就揭露過這家公司跟中國大陸有很多的合作往來業務，未來是否會要求經濟部在海底電纜的合作業務選擇上面，業者不應該跟中共有經貿往來，以保護國家的安全？","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:44.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:54.285000+08:00","text":"對，就關鍵基礎設施來講、資安管理法來講，確實就關鍵基礎設施採用的設備、相關的零組件都不能有涉陸的背景。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:54.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T10:59:55.246000+08:00","text":"可是現在是這樣子耶。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T10:59:56.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:01.317000+08:00","text":"假如有真正涉入背景的話，就必須要有確實的相關事證來證明。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:01.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:02.477000+08:00","text":"但現在是如此呀！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:02.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:08.820000+08:00","text":"我就告訴你，現在就是這樣嘛，我先前提供過資料給你們看，就是如此嘛，請問有沒有要去調整？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:08.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:09.200000+08:00","text":"會不會去調整？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:09.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:10.200000+08:00","text":"就國安局來講，我們會來掌握有沒有相關違、異常或違法的狀況……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:10.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:10.220000+08:00","text":"就是有嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:15.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:20.463000+08:00","text":"但我不是司法警察機關，我沒有調查權，有相關的資訊我們會給司法警察機關來做查辦。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:20.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:21.583000+08:00","text":"那我再給你嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:21.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:24.944000+08:00","text":"你們自己不查網路上都有的東西，那我再給你，好不好？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:25.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:28.305000+08:00","text":"有，上次委員提問的時候有提到這一點，我想相關單位都有在注意。對嘛！","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:28.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:41.047000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，你是做基礎設施的公司，你同時又跟中國大陸有聯繫、有一起在做相關的服務，我怎麼知道會不會內神通外鬼？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:41.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:43.048000+08:00","text":"這是大家都質疑的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:44.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:00:49.850000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問一下文化統戰的事，就不要放那張PowerPoint，上面有錯字。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:00:50.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:01.073000+08:00","text":"韓國瑜院長說過，中華民國是我們的國，美麗臺灣是我們的家，中華文化是我們的根，民主自由是我們的寶。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:01.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:03.474000+08:00","text":"局長，請問你認同這四句話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:03.474000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:04.474000+08:00","text":"我想所有政治人物的一些對外發言，我們都尊重，我們不適合做評論。","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:04.474000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:05.474000+08:00","text":"你尊重歸尊重，那你認不認同？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:04.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:05.955000+08:00","text":"我問第三句，中華文化是我們的根，這句話請問局長認不認同？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:05.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:23.427000+08:00","text":"我們國安單位不適合對於政治人物每一句話都去做評論，違反我們的行政分際。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:23.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:24.788000+08:00","text":"好，你說是這樣對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:24.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:32.913000+08:00","text":"可是你卻說，國安局警示中共文化統戰手法多元，潛移默化影響臺灣青年……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:32.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:33.913000+08:00","text":"是，是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:33.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:44.220000+08:00","text":"你說中國文化也是一種統戰手法，請問中華文化是統戰手法這句話是從何而來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:44.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:01:56.167000+08:00","text":"我們講的是中共文化的統戰手法多元，我們不是講中華文化是一種統戰，我剛剛也在跟馬文君委員說明，文化交流跟文化統戰是兩件不一樣的事情，正常的文化交流我們都予以尊重。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:01:56.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:00.129000+08:00","text":"你裡面講到談抗日歷史就是中共統戰，是嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:03.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:08.517000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統說的，民國113年的歷史裡面有沒有包含抗日？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:09.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:16.246000+08:00","text":"我們在談所謂的文化統戰，有一個重點跟委員說明，有些這種統戰活動它發起的單位就是中共中央的相關單位……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:16.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:21.511000+08:00","text":"那是單位的問題，但你談到的是舉辦座談研討抗日歷史也算在內？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:21.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:22.511000+08:00","text":"要看它主辦單位是什麼，我剛剛也有跟其他委員說過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:22.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:23.511000+08:00","text":"所以是主辦單位的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:23.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:24.511000+08:00","text":"有，會有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:24.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:25.511000+08:00","text":"所以在這個新聞裡面你談到的就是錯誤的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:25.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:26.511000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:26.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:27.511000+08:00","text":"所以談抗日歷史可以，但是主辦單位如果它有統戰色彩不行，對嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:22.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:26.093000+08:00","text":"沒有，主辦單位跟相關的議題以及他們討論的角度，很有可能中共就是會透過這些文化的議題來包裝，進行相關的統戰，灌輸中共相關的政治意識形態，這是我們在警示的。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:26.093000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:27.093000+08:00","text":"主席再給我1分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:26.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:28.274000+08:00","text":"我最後再問你幾個例子，我請問一下，媽祖遶境算不算統戰？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:28.274000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:34.105000+08:00","text":"臺灣自己宮廟的媽祖遶境嗎？對啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:34.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:39.936000+08:00","text":"國內的宮廟遶境……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:39.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:45.767000+08:00","text":"但他們經常也會去大陸交流啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:45.767000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:51.598000+08:00","text":"對，我剛剛一直在強調，立場很清楚，正常的交流我們都尊重，沒有意見，但是有異常，甚至違法的，我們會注意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:51.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:53.179000+08:00","text":"那S.H.E唱「中國話」算不算統戰？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:53.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:53.919000+08:00","text":"周杰倫唱的「本草綱目」算不算統戰？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:53.919000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:02:59.388286+08:00","text":"文化交流、文化活動，我剛剛已經一再地強調，我們沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:02:59.388286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:04.857571+08:00","text":"所以「中國話」也不算、「本草綱目」也不算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:04.857571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:10.326857+08:00","text":"我們沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:10.326857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:15.796143+08:00","text":"好，再下一個，我們平常的豆漿油條跟筷子也不算統戰嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:15.796143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:21.265429+08:00","text":"我們沒有意見，我剛剛已經講過了，正常的文化活動、正常的文化交流，我們沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:21.265429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:26.734714+08:00","text":"中國文化不算統戰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:26.734714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:32.204000+08:00","text":"好，下一個，那四大名著「水滸傳」、「紅樓夢」、「三國演義」跟「西遊記」不算統戰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:32.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:35.245000+08:00","text":"委員，文化活動跟文化統戰要分清楚，統戰是有政治意識形態的。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:36.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:38.046000+08:00","text":"好，下一個，玩「黑神話：悟空」的呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:38.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:03:43.748000+08:00","text":"這個有爭議喔，有些人認為這是文化統戰的一環。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:03:43.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:00.475000+08:00","text":"電玩的分級，我們尊重業管機關的分級，但是我們必須要提醒，就黑悟空整個遊戲出來之後，有很多的偵訊操作是在做統戰，他們甚至說臺灣就是因為沒有中國文化深度，才做不出這種東西來，這不是統戰，什麼叫統戰？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:01.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:05.497000+08:00","text":"所以你認為在玩黑悟空的人、發表這些言論的，算是統戰言論？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:05.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:10+08:00","text":"我講的是爭議訊息，委員不要擴大講成是我在指控電玩玩家，沒有！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:10.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:11.140000+08:00","text":"最後30秒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:11.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:15.323000+08:00","text":"那愛奇藝使用者跟抖音使用者算不算統戰？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:16.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:17.852000+08:00","text":"這是一樣的問題，我剛剛有提到。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:17.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:25.599000+08:00","text":"可是很多的政治人物，我們自己的委員都在立法院裡面看愛奇藝跟使用抖音，算不算統戰？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:25.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:27.860000+08:00","text":"但我們會提醒相關中共app的資安問題。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:27.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:31.463000+08:00","text":"好，你記得要提醒我們外交及國防委員會的委員，謝謝。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:31.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:32.004000+08:00","text":"對，要注意資安，謝謝。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:32.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:33.932571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:34.232571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:44.518286+08:00","text":"接下來要進行後續詢答之前，本席先宣告：待會在陳冠廷委員詢答結束後，我們休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T11:04:44.818286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T11:04:49.389714+08:00","text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:52:28 - 11:04:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請蔡明彥局長跟海巡署署長。"],["主席：兩位請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：你好。在這個聯合利劍B的軍演當中，中共他們實施軍警一體的新架構，所以這一次他們的海警船也首度納入編組，我方對於對岸的新措施，有什麼樣的這個……"],["蔡局長明彥：上次就有了。"],["徐委員巧芯：就是他在聯合利劍裡面編進來的嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，5月也有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以聯合利劍A跟聯合利劍B是在聯合利劍系統裡面編進來。"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們的因應措施部分，在海巡署人力、裝備是否足夠？因為最近我們也收到很多的陳情，對於海巡署相關軍備、裝備的部分他們有一些疑慮，是不是可以幫我們來做一些澄清，從國安的角度評估有沒有建議相關單位儘速補齊的問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，是。請海巡署來說明。"],["張署長忠龍：有關媒體報導海巡署的裝備部分，特別跟委員做一個說明跟澄清，海巡署所有的艦、船、艇，包括我們所有的裝備是足夠的，我們有訂一個武器裝備配賦攜行標準，它根據任務不同會攜行不同的裝備，所以這個部分是沒有問題的。另外，這次中共海警船在臺灣周邊總計出現12艘，但是海巡署就出動了13艘的艦船跟58艘的巡防艇，所以在應對上面是綽綽有餘的，此外，我們也準備了第二梯次的預備兵力，所以這個部分請委員放心，沒有問題！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為在之前的金門事件，我們才發現你們連最基本的監視器相關設備都沒有，大家才會很擔心海巡署相關的設備到底買齊了沒，所以我順便問一下，後來你們相關船隻的監視器及海巡署人員的監視器買齊了嗎？都配發了嗎？"],["張署長忠龍：到9月之前他們全部都已經配發跟就位。"],["徐委員巧芯：全部配發了，已經完成這個部分了嘛！"],["張署長忠龍：全部配發，是。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為兩岸海巡艦隊的部分，中國大陸的海警船他們最大的艦級是多少噸？"],["張署長忠龍：1萬2,000噸，2901號。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們臺灣最大的艦級是多少噸？"],["張署長忠龍：4,000噸。"],["徐委員巧芯：在這麼大的懸殊之下，我們的因應措施是什麼？是我們的船比較多，或者是我們因應的策略比較好？"],["張署長忠龍：特別跟委員說明，那個大不一定好用，尤其在臺灣周邊海域這麼多的淺礁、淺灘，事實上我們海巡署對應中國大陸的海警船，我們採的是快速、迅速、有效，以量來應對中國大陸的海警船。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們的策略就是迅速，我知道了。","接下來問一下蔡局長，經濟部目前研擬要去菲律賓設置綠電，再用船隻跟電纜送過來，郭智輝部長說這是AIT牽線的，請問國安局有掌握這個資訊嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這個是經濟部的業管，對他們相關計畫的整備跟推動，我們尊重經濟部對外的說法。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是目前配合中共武力演習使用的蟒蛇戰術，您認為是否有國安的風險？"],["蔡局長明彥：這只是美國智庫的一個用語叫「蟒蛇戰術」，我剛剛也跟包括陳永康委員在說明，中共可能的對臺軍事準備方案有各種的方案，我們對於各種方案都會加以來研析。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是在菲律賓設置綠電，再用船隻跟電纜送綠電過來，根據目前中共對臺軍演跟相關的部署，會不會有國安上面的問題？你們的考量是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，因為這個案子可能還在規劃當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：就如果有這樣的案子的話。"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有諮詢到國安局的意見，我們會提供我們相關的評估在內部會議來做討論。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在就在問你嘛！你覺得你的評估方案，有沒有國安上的問題跟考量？"],["蔡局長明彥：就政府單位運作來講，因為我並不知道它完整方案的規劃是什麼，它的傳輸路徑是什麼，它在菲律賓設置的廠區在哪裡，這必須要有一個全面的評估才有辦法來說明，因為我們還沒有被知會到去參加相關會議的討論，所以我的資訊非常有限，請委員可以理解。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們在經濟部長提出這樣子的規劃……我問你一個問題，這有沒有涉及到國安？這樣子的規劃有沒有涉及到國安？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要看它的內容。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！電力有沒有涉及到國安嘛？臺灣電力的發送有沒有涉及到國安問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：廣義來講，有涉及到關鍵基礎設施。"],["徐委員巧芯：有涉及到關鍵基礎設施，當然就有涉及到國安啊！那你現在跟我打這些迷糊仗有什麼意思呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是打迷糊仗，這是因為這個案子還沒有進入正式諮詢的過程。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我問今天經濟部要推一個方案，這個方案可能會跟國安基礎建設有關係，沒有先知會國安局、沒有先告訴你們其方案是什麼……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，政府的討論……"],["徐委員巧芯：然後就擅自在外面去講這件事情，請問有其道理可言嗎？有沒有把你們國安局、有沒有把我們國家的安全放在眼裡呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是經濟部的業管。"],["徐委員巧芯：這就是今天這件事情會引發很大爭議的原因之一嘛！好，另外……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這是經濟部的業管，我們尊重他們的評估跟整備計畫。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是你們尊重他們評估的問題，你們也要去詢問對方這到底是怎麼一回事嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，如果有接受諮詢，我們會提供意見。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果所有事情都只是尊重對方的話，當別人都做下去了，國安單位才發現這不可以，請問要怎麼收回成命？納稅錢都花下去的時候，請問你國安局要怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，可以理解委員的擔心，但政府的運作不是這樣啦！它一定會有一個評估跟整備的過程。"],["徐委員巧芯：人家都已經講出去了，公開的論壇大大方方地講，昨天發生的事情啊！有沒有看新聞？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，業管單位對外的說明我們尊重，在這個階段他怎麼樣做評估，後續假如需要國安局來提供意見，我們會積極來參與。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，你們要積極的告訴對方、詢問他這個事情到底是怎麼回事啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們尊重業管單位相關計畫推動的進程。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，你們不是要去尊重對方的計畫，而是這件事情會影響到基礎設施的，所以你們要去問對方他們到底想幹嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有涉及到基礎設施，我們會繼續注意。"],["徐委員巧芯：否則人家已經做下去了，花了預算了，跟AIT都溝通好了，你們才發現在國安上有問題的時候，又把它停下來，這不是就產生了很大的矛盾嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：瞭解委員的問題啦！問題是很清楚，但事實上政府的運作不是像委員講的這樣子，我們會完整的評估。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我接下來問，先前的5G電纜部分也涉及到基礎設施，過去承攬的公司叫作是方電訊，我過去就揭露過這家公司跟中國大陸有很多的合作往來業務，未來是否會要求經濟部在海底電纜的合作業務選擇上面，業者不應該跟中共有經貿往來，以保護國家的安全？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就關鍵基礎設施來講、資安管理法來講，確實就關鍵基礎設施採用的設備、相關的零組件都不能有涉陸的背景。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是現在是這樣子耶。"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有真正涉入背景的話，就必須要有確實的相關事證來證明。"],["徐委員巧芯：但現在是如此呀！我就告訴你，現在就是這樣嘛，我先前提供過資料給你們看，就是如此嘛，請問有沒有要去調整？會不會去調整？"],["蔡局長明彥：就國安局來講，我們會來掌握有沒有相關違、異常或違法的狀況……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是有嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：但我不是司法警察機關，我沒有調查權，有相關的資訊我們會給司法警察機關來做查辦。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我再給你嘛！你們自己不查網路上都有的東西，那我再給你，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，上次委員提問的時候有提到這一點，我想相關單位都有在注意。"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！我的意思是說，你是做基礎設施的公司，你同時又跟中國大陸有聯繫、有一起在做相關的服務，我怎麼知道會不會內神通外鬼？這是大家都質疑的事情。","接下來我要問一下文化統戰的事，就不要放那張PowerPoint，上面有錯字。韓國瑜院長說過，中華民國是我們的國，美麗臺灣是我們的家，中華文化是我們的根，民主自由是我們的寶。局長，請問你認同這四句話嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想所有政治人物的一些對外發言，我們都尊重，我們不適合做評論。"],["徐委員巧芯：你尊重歸尊重，那你認不認同？我問第三句，中華文化是我們的根，這句話請問局長認不認同？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們國安單位不適合對於政治人物每一句話都去做評論，違反我們的行政分際。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你說是這樣對不對？可是你卻說，國安局警示中共文化統戰手法多元，潛移默化影響臺灣青年……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，是這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說中國文化也是一種統戰手法，請問中華文化是統戰手法這句話是從何而來？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們講的是中共文化的統戰手法多元，我們不是講中華文化是一種統戰，我剛剛也在跟馬文君委員說明，文化交流跟文化統戰是兩件不一樣的事情，正常的文化交流我們都予以尊重。"],["徐委員巧芯：你裡面講到談抗日歷史就是中共統戰，是嗎？賴清德總統說的，民國113年的歷史裡面有沒有包含抗日？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們在談所謂的文化統戰，有一個重點跟委員說明，有些這種統戰活動它發起的單位就是中共中央的相關單位……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是單位的問題，但你談到的是舉辦座談研討抗日歷史也算在內？"],["蔡局長明彥：要看它主辦單位是什麼，我剛剛也有跟其他委員說過。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是主辦單位的問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，會有關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以在這個新聞裡面你談到的就是錯誤的嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以談抗日歷史可以，但是主辦單位如果它有統戰色彩不行，對嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，主辦單位跟相關的議題以及他們討論的角度，很有可能中共就是會透過這些文化的議題來包裝，進行相關的統戰，灌輸中共相關的政治意識形態，這是我們在警示的。"],["徐委員巧芯：主席再給我1分鐘。我最後再問你幾個例子，我請問一下，媽祖遶境算不算統戰？"],["蔡局長明彥：臺灣自己宮廟的媽祖遶境嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊。"],["蔡局長明彥：國內的宮廟遶境……"],["徐委員巧芯：但他們經常也會去大陸交流啊。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我剛剛一直在強調，立場很清楚，正常的交流我們都尊重，沒有意見，但是有異常，甚至違法的，我們會注意。"],["徐委員巧芯：那S.H.E唱「中國話」算不算統戰？周杰倫唱的「本草綱目」算不算統戰？"],["蔡局長明彥：文化交流、文化活動，我剛剛已經一再地強調，我們沒有意見。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以「中國話」也不算、「本草綱目」也不算。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有意見。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，再下一個，我們平常的豆漿油條跟筷子也不算統戰嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有意見，我剛剛已經講過了，正常的文化活動、正常的文化交流，我們沒有意見。"],["徐委員巧芯：中國文化不算統戰。好，下一個，那四大名著「水滸傳」、「紅樓夢」、「三國演義」跟「西遊記」不算統戰？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，文化活動跟文化統戰要分清楚，統戰是有政治意識形態的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，下一個，玩「黑神話：悟空」的呢？這個有爭議喔，有些人認為這是文化統戰的一環。"],["蔡局長明彥：電玩的分級，我們尊重業管機關的分級，但是我們必須要提醒，就黑悟空整個遊戲出來之後，有很多的偵訊操作是在做統戰，他們甚至說臺灣就是因為沒有中國文化深度，才做不出這種東西來，這不是統戰，什麼叫統戰？"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為在玩黑悟空的人、發表這些言論的，算是統戰言論？"],["蔡局長明彥：我講的是爭議訊息，委員不要擴大講成是我在指控電玩玩家，沒有！"],["徐委員巧芯：最後30秒。那愛奇藝使用者跟抖音使用者算不算統戰？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是一樣的問題，我剛剛有提到。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是很多的政治人物，我們自己的委員都在立法院裡面看愛奇藝跟使用抖音，算不算統戰？"],["蔡局長明彥：但我們會提醒相關中共app的資安問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你記得要提醒我們外交及國防委員會的委員，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要注意資安，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。","接下來要進行後續詢答之前，本席先宣告：待會在陳冠廷委員詢答結束後，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}