{"error":false,"id":["155541"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155541,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155541","日期":"2024-10-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-23-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-16T10:29:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-16T10:40:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"委員名稱":"魯明哲","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df6915b8c62b7a20079eaa7101df8a25548c1766e2bcab8f8c7ff774445f8f1023ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.519718750000001,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.08471875,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.20596875,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.775343750000001,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.86346875,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.04034375,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.12471875,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.12034375,"end":24.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.33096875,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.75534375,"end":35.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.822843750000004,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.27784375,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.43659375,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.275968750000004,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.283468750000004,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.329093750000006,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.72534375000001,"end":69.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.14659375000001,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.26034375,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.17034375,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.49409375,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.26096875,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.63909375,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.11534375000001,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":124.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.14221875000001,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.51659375,"end":133.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.22096875,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.22909375,"end":136.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.05596875,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.16096875,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.05096875,"end":144.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.44721875000002,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.79284375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.64909375000002,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.64784375000002,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.90909375,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.21596875,"end":166.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.00909375,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.35909375,"end":172.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.66221875000002,"end":173.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.45096875000002,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.86784375000002,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.96096875,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.96471875,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.34409375,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.95534375000003,"end":215.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.55846875,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.13596875000002,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.23284375,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.32534375,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.38409375,"end":230.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.66159375,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.08909375000002,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.17346875,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.61221875,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.55409375,"end":298.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.15284375000005,"end":337.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.17221875,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.25971875000005,"end":346.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.71096875,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.44721875000005,"end":361.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.37096875000003,"end":362.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.84346875,"end":364.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.07096875,"end":366.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.85971875,"end":367.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.31096875000003,"end":370.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.47096875,"end":371.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.27659375,"end":386.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.60346875000005,"end":388.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.71284375000005,"end":391.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.96971875,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.26409375000003,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.56346875,"end":404.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.37284375,"end":408.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.71409375,"end":407.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.19909375000003,"end":410.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.56596875,"end":412.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.79346875000005,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.52284375000005,"end":423.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.67784375,"end":426.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.79971875,"end":427.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.88409375000003,"end":427.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.16659375,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.64659375,"end":438.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.69659375000003,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.02096875,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.59034375000005,"end":481.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.76596875,"end":489.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.16971875,"end":495.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.10534375000003,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.39596875,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.03159375,"end":526.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.78409375,"end":532.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.57221875,"end":533.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.38221875,"end":537.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.4153437500001,"end":556.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.95909375,"end":541.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.26034375,"end":557.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.9353437500001,"end":558.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1965937500001,"end":561.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.32284375,"end":563.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.36909375,"end":565.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.5459687499999,"end":567.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.99284375,"end":568.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.95471875,"end":569.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.7478437500001,"end":572.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.94159375,"end":572.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.86971875,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.2409687500001,"end":573.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.07534375,"end":581.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.77971875,"end":582.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.31971875,"end":584.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.15909375,"end":584.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3740937499999,"end":586.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.9265937499999,"end":589.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.5759687500001,"end":593.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.8959687500001,"end":593.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.99721875,"end":596.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.66346875,"end":597.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.77721875,"end":598.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.7053437500001,"end":601.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.42221875,"end":604.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.6284687500001,"end":605.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.7253437500001,"end":606.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.0247187500001,"end":608.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.74596875,"end":609.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.7922187500001,"end":610.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.3490937500001,"end":612.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.6440937500001,"end":613.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.4878437500001,"end":615.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.6140937499999,"end":617.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.5378437500001,"end":619.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.30971875,"end":620.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.0815937500001,"end":621.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.1953437500001,"end":625.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.46909375,"end":627.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.34221875,"end":630.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.73409375,"end":631.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.4934687500001,"end":632.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.4722187500001,"end":633.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.10909375,"end":636.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.3703437500001,"end":638.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.83409375,"end":641.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.53409375,"end":644.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.5165937500001,"end":647.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.9297187500001,"end":653.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.03846875,"end":663.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.5522187500001,"end":664.1128437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.5,"end":5,"text":"交通部陳副部長"},{"start":27.37,"end":47.305,"text":"這個有看到你們要針對我們汽車運輸業的管理規則跟它的一個價格的一個準則做一個預告不管是修正新增的這個的部分我看到了我現在很多民眾也看到了那當然未來我看到在整個這個你們的汽車貨運業裡面的像這種"},{"start":50.447,"end":53.168,"text":"法定價格的準則很多啦!包括計程車你要怎麼遊戲規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規�"},{"start":80.256,"end":104.196,"text":"就是在我們計程車業者你要營業登記證幾年申請一制你有多重的一個管制你要考上更大的客車或營業你要經歷過多少一個部分但事實上我們在外送平台的一個我們的機車外送員事實上是比較進入是沒有障礙的你只要考上駕照你就可以進入你有沒有每一年檢驗要不要回信不用 完全不用"},{"start":104.616,"end":104.936,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":125.293,"end":130.098,"text":"消費者跟店家是主體是實體也就是說這兩個必須在其他的不在面照樣可以吃只不過要走過去"},{"start":148.695,"end":149.476,"text":"李卓人議員李卓人議員"},{"start":174.865,"end":198.941,"text":"這三個 下面三個消費者 外送員 店家我覺得都需要被關注我們在訂這個規則的時候當然是相關的業者工會來主導我覺得應該要這是時機了而且太慢了為什麼呢因為今年年中的時候看到哇 某一家外送平台要併購另外一家外送平台居然併購的價格9.5億的美金它會超過300億的台幣我第一個感覺說"},{"start":205.14,"end":229.9,"text":"這是一個非常賺錢的一個平台的一個行業那我覺得應該要用第一線打拚的外送員他應該受到更多的保障我相信部長跟大家的想法都一樣那第二個呢因為如果併購成功併購成功他會變一個台灣兩大的一個外送平台的業者變成一個獨大所以對於我們外送員"},{"start":230.84,"end":232.741,"text":"部長您的想法是不是也是這樣"},{"start":249.888,"end":268.567,"text":"報告委員我覺得外送的這個議題相當的大牽扯到的部會也相當的多而且它是一個新興的一個數位的平台的消費模式新興的模式但目前為止政府對於這方面似乎是沒有任何的法令在管理那交通部是處理最上位的那個地方最上位就是運費"},{"start":269.428,"end":269.648,"text":"好部長"},{"start":300.562,"end":311.05,"text":"這個從外送委員來看我剛剛已經說了事實上從疫情之前2019年到大概去年統計真的超過三倍去年登記的人數這是勞動部的一個資料這個產業我們整個台灣"},{"start":317.475,"end":345.757,"text":"的自己的國民在做這個行業需要受到保障的人數這個行業算非常多所以我們制定一些法規我覺得他是有他的合理性第二個我們外送平台的可以講外送員他的一個事故我說真的有時候騎著機車不管是雨天天氣冷熱天說真的不容易所以他們發生一個事故的統計我大概每天平均三個人在台北市所以我是覺得"},{"start":347.298,"end":370.367,"text":"這種法規這種預告也好現在大家都預期啦如果我們政府介入預告半天薪水會越領越低也不要預告啦大家都預估未來外送員的一個權利福利會能夠比較好但是我還是要提醒一下現在消費者也在擔心我覺得有一個目標啦我覺得有一個方向我是覺得要從平台這個雲上"},{"start":372.372,"end":395.832,"text":"有賺的錢去分享給我們下面的國人不管國人的角色是外送員是消費者是店家他在第一線這麼努力我是覺得這個法規如果弄到最後啊如果這樣消費者現在在問我當然你們也不清楚嘛因為各縣市到底怎麼定但是未來你們透明化的結果可能是幾層續層再加上"},{"start":399.675,"end":422.483,"text":"樓層夜間11點之後春節我覺得夜間跟春節這個蠻合理的我自己覺得蠻合理的但是樓層費到底要怎麼收是不是按照我訂的時候我是10樓還是說我訂的時候你要送貨的時候我擺樓下還是說坐電梯的比較輕鬆爬樓梯的怎麼弄我真的不清楚不過等待費這個部分"},{"start":423.743,"end":439.398,"text":"我請教一下市長也好部長這個店家等待費你們定義喔是指等待完成製餐是什麼意義就是說外送委員到我店面在等餐了這個時間等了5分鐘是不是要計費"},{"start":442.488,"end":468.704,"text":"等待費的部分的話因為當時這個大家討論的部分就有點參照這個計程車的一個概念那計程車的部分的話他是有這個等待客人這樣子的一個這個費用但是這個部分的話有一些參數的部分的話這個後面各縣市這個性質會不一樣大家一定要共同做討論那另外一個部分的話就是說這段期間包括委員所提的樓層費或是這個"},{"start":470.825,"end":471.205,"text":"等待費等待費等待費"},{"start":489.893,"end":490.514,"text":"主席"},{"start":510.911,"end":531.937,"text":"報告委員您的這個圖做得非常好等待費其實有好多因素所以這個法令上我自己也覺得很難定義不太容易去定義那該算誰的該收誰的該算平台該算店家該算外送員或者算消費者因素不同所以這個部分其實我覺得目前還在預告期法令還在預告期所以我們還可以再討論"},{"start":532.577,"end":558.636,"text":"所以部長其實我的想法是算來算去如果真的有增加一定要算平台業者不要算來算去我們這三個國人在那邊打拼的過程中因為我現在時間到了發送員撿貨時間拿到餐點了突然去加個油到底有些規則是自己有時候可能是消費者有時候是店家這個東西要定義非常非常清楚不然會亂那最後一個是"},{"start":560.219,"end":580.311,"text":"因為店家也在反映現在當然這兩家業者平台業者應該可能都在國外的我們很歡迎全世界的這個要做生意的來台灣我們都很歡迎開放的可是問題現在每一家店面就是一個單他大概平均我知道抽三成多三成多賣個便當100塊"},{"start":581.732,"end":582.352,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":604.682,"end":630.114,"text":"我們預期外送人員他的條件勢必要變好不然我們就白幹了對不對他變好的這些錢如果再來一次添加他3乘5變成要出4乘4乘5我跟你講到最後的結果是大概就完全跟我們想法完全不一樣為什麼店家不玩了如果店家不玩了或者消費者覺得很貴了他也不玩了"},{"start":630.774,"end":630.914,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":648.027,"end":648.067,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:29:42 - 10:40:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：外送平臺是林司長這邊管理的，還是公路局？未來管理單位到底是誰？"],["陳部長世凱：公路局。"],["魯委員明哲：那公路局也來一下。有看到你們要針對汽車運輸業的管理規則跟價格準則做一個預告，不管是修正或新增的部分，我看到了，很多民眾也看到了，在整個汽車貨運業裡面像這種訂價格準則的很多，包括計程車，坦白講你們訂的是一個遊戲規則，到底多少錢未來是地方政府因地制宜來訂定。但是你們在訂這個原則，全國都要看這個定義，所以這個很重要，因為畢竟外送員有一些特性，像我們的計程車業者要有營業登記證、幾年申請一次，有多重的管制，你要考上更大的客車貨運業，要有多少經歷，但對於外送平臺的機車外送員，事實上進入是比較沒有障礙的，你只要考上駕照就可以進入，不用每一年檢驗、回訓，完全不用，所以我們在訂定這個規則的時候，遊戲規則的定義要更清楚，因為訂出去之後，不像是每一年檢驗一次，我們還可以再回訓、訓練，所以一次要講清楚。","我覺得在這四個中間，即外送平臺以及下面運作的方式：從消費者下order，以及店家得到這個訊息之後，不管是買食物、商品、備貨，然後由外送員送過去。我特別提醒，紅色的這個部分，也就是消費者跟店家是主體，這兩個必須在，其他的不在，麵照樣可以吃，只不過要走過去，甚至有時候他們請自己的外送員過來，這兩個是主體，我要買東西，這兩個必須在，至於其他外送平臺跟外送員是這幾年來不管是共享經濟或懶人經濟（我不想出去，就直接叫來）而產生的，這個過程的關鍵點在哪裡？我為什麼這樣說呢？因為下面這三個：消費者、外送員、店家，我覺得都需要被關注，我們在訂這個規則的時候，當然是相關的業者工會來主導，我覺得應該要，這是時機了，而且太慢了，為什麼呢？因為今年年中的時候看到某一家外送平臺要併購另外一家外送平臺，且併購的價格居然要9.5億美金，超過300億臺幣，我看到的第一個感覺是，這個平臺是一個非常賺錢的行業，我覺得應該要讓第一線打拼的外送員受到更多的保障，我相信部長跟大家的想法都一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：第二個，如果併購成功，臺灣兩大外送平臺的業者會變成一個獨大，對於外送員零散的議價能力會更降低，所以我覺得這是政府用法規，甚至還有勞動部相關的，到底是僱傭或是什麼關係，要讓它妾身要明，這樣未來才有可能讓獨占業者就這個部分做一個挑戰。部長，你的想法是不是也是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得外送的議題相當大，牽扯到的部會也相當多，而且它是一個新興的數位平臺的消費模式，但目前為止政府對於這方面似乎是沒有任何法令在管理，交通部是處理最上位的那個地方，最上位就是運費，運費的部分是屬於交通部；針對勞工的權益，可能是勞動部；針對數位平臺的管理，是數位部；針對店家的部分或者有一些食品安全的部分，那是衛福部，但是如果最上位的運費透明化我們沒有處理的話，其他的步調大概很難走下去，所以交通部現在才會針對最上位的運費透明化來啟動，這個部分還需要大家一起來討論。"],["魯委員明哲：好。部長，從外送員來看，我剛剛已經說了，事實上從疫情之前、2019年到去年的統計，登記人數真的差不多3倍，甚至超過3倍，這是勞動部的資料。臺灣自己的國民在做這個行業需要受到保障的人數，這個行業是算非常多，所以我覺得我們制定一些法規是有其合理性的。第二個是關於外送平臺外送員的事故。他們有時候騎著機車，不管是雨天、天氣冷或熱天，說真的並不容易，且根據他們發生事故的統計，臺北市每天大概平均3個人，所以我覺得不論這種法規或這種預告，現在大家都預期，如果政府介入，預告了半天，薪水只會越領越低，也不要預告了啦！大家都預估未來外送員的權利、福利能夠比較好。","但是我還是要提醒，現在消費者也在擔心，我覺得有一個目標、有一個方向，我是覺得要從平臺這個雲上有賺的錢去分享給我們下面的國人，不管國人的角色是外送員、是消費者、是店家，他在第一線這麼努力，我是覺得這個法規如果弄到最後，像消費者現在在問我，當然你們也不清楚各縣市到底是怎麼訂的，但是未來你們透明化的結果，可能是起程、續程，再加上樓層、夜間11點之後、春節，我覺得收夜間費跟春節費還滿合理的，但是樓層費到底要怎麼收？是按照我訂的時候是10樓，還是我訂的時候說送貨時擺樓下，還是坐電梯的比較輕鬆，爬樓梯的比較累等等，到底要怎麼弄，我真的不清楚。不過等待費這個部分，我請教司長或部長，你們定義的等待費是指等待完成製餐，這是什麼意思？是外送員到我店面在等餐了，時間等了5分鐘，是不是要計費？"],["林司長福山：等待費的部分，當時大家討論的部分就有點參照計程車的概念，因為計程車是有等待客人這樣的費用，但是有一些參數的部分，後面各縣市的性質會不一樣，大家一定要共同做討論。另外一個部分就是，這段期間，包括委員所提的樓層費或是等待費，有一些項目要不要考量，或是定義是不是需要更明確？現在公路局會邀請包括消基會等大家再共同做討論。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得你們不能讓縣市政府去煩這個事情，你們的定義一定要非常清楚，計程車的等待費是客人要上車，外送員的是指拿到客人的餐點或物品後還要等待？但如果拿到就不用等待了，所以我不太清楚。有時候人家下單、接單比較久，他可能20分鐘接到單，在那邊坐15分鐘，你是要算店家還是算誰的？其實我是不太清楚，還是部長清楚？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您的這個圖做得非常好，等待費其實有好多因素，所以這個在法令上我自己也覺得很難定義，不太容易去定義，到底該算誰的、該收誰的，是該算平臺、該算店家、該算要送外送員或者算消費者，因素不同。不過目前法令還在預告期，所以我們還可以再討論。"],["魯委員明哲：所以部長，其實我的想法是，算來算去如果真的有增加，一定要算平臺業者的，不要算來算去，這3個國人在那邊打拼的過程中……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：因為我現在時間到了，包括外送員的撿貨時間是指他拿到餐點後突然去加個油嗎？到底哪些規則是自己？因為有時候可能是消費者，有時候是店家，這個東西要定義地非常非常清楚，不然會亂。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：最後一個是，因為店家也在反映，當然這兩家平臺業者可能都在國外，我們很歡迎全世界要做生意的來臺灣，我們都很歡迎，很開放的。問題是我知道現在每一家店面就是一個單平均抽三成多，假設一個便當賣100塊，就是大概拿65塊，但坦白講，他們還是要參加，因為不參加，就跟醫院沒有參加健保一樣，不好意思，你的客戶就少了，所以他們還是要參加，就是薄利但是要多銷。所以我剛剛講了這麼多的原因，如果這增加的費用，我們預期外送人員的條件勢必要變好，不然我們就白幹了，對不對？但他變好的這些錢，因為再來就是店家，如果店家從原本的三成五變成要出四成、四成五，我跟你講，到最後結果大概就會跟我們的想法完全不一樣，為什麼？可能店家不玩了，如果店家不玩了，或者消費者覺得很貴，他也不玩了，或者低價、一百多塊他不訂了，要五百塊以上才符合外送成本的話，當這些次數減少的時候，大家都知道，我總共賺的錢是要跑幾單乘以你們現在訂的運費，如果次數少的話，都會影響。所以我在這裡特別拜託，你們在討論的時候，定義一定要非常非常清楚。第二個，我們希望這個錢是從賺錢的平臺share給我們的國人，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}