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謝謝主席 尤其經濟部的郭部長 台電總董事長跟王總經理王總經理"},{"start":19.758,"end":44.749,"text":"部長您好任何政策行程一定要經過事情整密的評估各項可能造成的影響還有裁員部分那你這個所謂在海外電廠部分是你的構想嘛你的想法如果你的想法是可行的要變成具體的政策具體的政策之後才能去執行是的那您覺得您的構想化成具體政策的可能性如何"},{"start":46.465,"end":64.297,"text":"我必須要多方面的評估評估的階段大概要多久大概要半年所以半年發生政策你可能還要修法也不一定那還要招募商也不一定政策要執行還需要多久"},{"start":65.878,"end":93.964,"text":"這個部分報告委員我們各種方法都可以啦目的就是說我們可以互相的sharing這樣的一個經驗互相可以這個買賣這樣的一個綠能大概這個是主要這概念很好但是我覺得是一個long term的一個計畫是的你要解決能源配比這是應該是急迫性的問題我們目前並沒有要解決目前的能源配比"},{"start":94.437,"end":113.61,"text":"如果你做一個長程的規劃我覺得是可行的但是你必須要經過詳細的評估相關的配套你都應該很完整的做公告所以我覺得任何的政府的政策要對外公告之前甚至構想的階段都要很整密的做一些評估我想針對這個計畫台電的立場曾董事長對國部長的這個構想"},{"start":120.202,"end":145.26,"text":"可行性如何?我跟委員報告就是說其實減碳這一個事情現在全世界都在設想各種的方法我就具體而言聚焦在這個海外式電廠可行性如何?那個部長有提到就是說這個電廠的設置不見得是台電去設置那HVDC的技術確實全世界現在也在關注那我想說HVDC的技術成熟跟它的成本等等的我們可以台電工具部因為"},{"start":146.701,"end":147.362,"text":"王總,你看這個技術面行得通嗎?"},{"start":162.061,"end":182.161,"text":"因為如果要從菲律賓送電過來一定要走直流的電不會是交流因為這距離比較長那台澎海南是用交流那直流的話目前在歐洲的歐洲大陸因為歐洲大陸事實上很多國家都是在海上所以這種海底電纜事實上已經是一個成熟的技術那現在重點是在於說用什麼樣的規模"},{"start":183.302,"end":185.303,"text":"政策行程之前我們會做相關的評估評估之後具體的時程、經費怎麼都會做出一個很完整的對外說明"},{"start":209.921,"end":230.496,"text":"好 我想這題就到這邊 地熱的部分 地熱我想台灣有這個條件 但是我們地熱的潛能跟開發的比例嚴重失衡現在我們地熱發電量 佔總體發電量0.01而已那我們目前定的目標是多少"},{"start":231.738,"end":248.928,"text":"我們現在大概運廠的地熱就是如果深層地熱運廠大概有40GW對它可以開採出來實際上可以用的大概接近9GW但是我們當初2025是定200MW20MW2025是定20MW2021202520MW所以"},{"start":260.754,"end":268.705,"text":"你目前你現在目前的這個開發進度達成率也目前蠻低的到2023所以怎麼樣能夠2025能夠達到20MW"},{"start":272.46,"end":274.282,"text":"地熱能探勘跟開發許可跟管理辦法這實際上成效如何?"},{"start":305.511,"end":314.621,"text":"主要就是針對過去地熱的開發都擅在各部會的相關法規包括你要探專有溫泉法有水利法等等你要降低這個業者相關的風險才有動機才有意願"},{"start":320.529,"end":344.789,"text":"所以在行政程序上我們後來透過修法之後把它變成單一窗口由經濟部這邊統一來做單一窗口的審查那另外我的意思說你是不是由政府來主導初期的高風險的探勘有一個專責機構做一些分攤的這個風險分攤的機制在這個地熱的風險那第一個在鑽探那鑽探所以我們本部的地方中心"},{"start":345.429,"end":346.07,"text":"北高雄北高雄當然是我的選區"},{"start":374.805,"end":384.336,"text":"這部分不能只在南高雄而已你那個電纜強韌計畫總統也很重視所以這個部分是不是也可以把北高雄的這個沿海地區的電纜計畫列為一個專案來處理"},{"start":394.25,"end":408.066,"text":"報告委員這一次我想這次山東的颱風造成這個屏東高雄沿海的這個嚴重的這個災損那我們有這個經驗以後我們會特別就像委員所指導的這個沿海這個"},{"start":409.591,"end":416.154,"text":"另外,AI算力中心是未來用電需求增加的主要原因,那是不是應該比照半導體,要跟能源組提出能源使用說明書?"},{"start":433.592,"end":433.632,"text":"這個星達電廠這個燃氣"},{"start":460.776,"end":461.176,"text":"王總你比較了解王總"},{"start":482.894,"end":497.822,"text":"這會跳票嗎?不會跳票啦,因為我們現在已經點火了一號機已經點火了所以前幾天已經並聯在初步的這個做測試發展一號機是不是要供應給誰你知道供應給喬科跟南科"},{"start":499.033,"end":509.327,"text":"這很重要,告訴我們你有限沒電,這很重要,現在已經開始在設廠了,我做招募要以身作則,時間高就要遵循"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:19:29 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11:28:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":641,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時19分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長、台電曾董事長與王總經理。"],["主席：請郭部長、曾董事長、王總經理。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，任何政策的形成一定要經過事前縝密的評估、各項可能造成的影響及財源，海外電廠是你的構想嘛！如果你的想法是可行的，要變成具體的政策之後才能夠執行。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：您覺得你的構想化成具體政策的可能性如何？"],["郭部長智輝：必須要多方面的評估。"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！評估的階段大概要多久？"],["郭部長智輝：大概要半年。"],["邱委員志偉：半年化成政策，你可能還要修法也不一定，還要招商也不一定，政策要到執行還需要多久？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分各種方法都可以，目的就是我們可以互相sharing這樣的經驗，可以互相買賣這樣的綠能，這個大概是主要的目的。"],["邱委員志偉：是，這個概念很好，但是我覺得這是一個long-term的計畫……"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：要解決能源配比，這應該是急迫性的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前並沒有要解決目前的能源配比。"],["邱委員志偉：如果你把它作為一個長程的規劃，我覺得是可行的，但是你必須經過詳細的評估，相關配套都應該很完整的做出來並公告……"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得任何的政府政策要對外公告之前，甚至構想階段，都要縝密的做一些評估。針對這個計畫，台電的立場呢？曾董事長，對於郭部長的構想，可行性如何？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，其實減碳這件事現在全世界都在設想各種方法……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，我是說具體而言，聚焦在這個海外電廠的可行性如何？"],["曾董事長文生：部長有提到這個電廠的設置不見得是台電去設置，HVDC的技術確實全世界現在也在關注，我想HVDC的技術成熟和成本等等，我們可以進一步來研究……"],["邱委員志偉：是可行性，技術面沒有問題嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：現在評估的是4,300公里，如果4,300公里的基礎上可以做，300公里當然容易很多。"],["邱委員志偉：技術面問王總比較清楚，王總，你覺得這個技術面行得通嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：如果要從菲律賓送電過來，一定要走直流的電，不會是交流，因為距離比較長，臺澎海纜是用交流，直流的話，目前在歐洲大陸因為很多國家都在海上，所以海底電纜已經是一個成熟的技術……"],["邱委員志偉：所以技術面沒有問題。"],["王總經理耀庭：現在重點是在於用什麼樣的規模、成本，這要做最適化的考量，所以這還需要一點時間來評估。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這個方向沒有錯，部長也不需要道歉，長期的方向是沒有錯的，但是你要論述得更完整、更清楚，政策形成之前我們會做相關的評估，評估之後，具體的時程、經費等等，都會做出一個完整的對外說明。這題就到這邊。","地熱的部分，我想臺灣有這個條件，但是我們地熱的潛能跟開發的比例嚴重失衡，現在我們地熱發電量占總發電量0.01%而已，我們目前訂的目標是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在蘊藏的地熱大概40GW，實際上可以開採的、可以用的大概接近9GW。"],["邱委員志偉：但是我們當初是訂2025年200MW。"],["郭部長智輝：20MW。"],["邱委員志偉：以目前的開發進度，到2023年達成率滿低的，如何在2025年達到20MW？"],["郭部長智輝：我請能源署長報告。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，到目前已經有7點多MW完成，目前中油還有其他民間業者建置的計畫還在執行中，我們預定到明年底應該可以達到20MW。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你們有這個把握，地熱真的是很重要，我覺得應該要加快……"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，5月公告的地熱能探勘與開發許可及管理辦法實際上的成效如何？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，主要就是針對過去地熱的開發都散在各部會的相關法規，包括你要探鑽，有溫泉法、水利法等等，所以……"],["邱委員志偉：我瞭解，你要降低業者相關的風險，他們才會有動機和意願……"],["游署長振偉：對，所以在行政程序上，我們後來透過修法把它變成單一窗口，由經濟部統一做單一窗口的審查。另外……"],["邱委員志偉：我的意思是說是否由政府來主導初期的高風險探勘，有一個專責機構，做一些風險分攤的機制，這樣可以嗎？"],["游署長振偉：地熱的風險第一個在鑽探，所以本部的地礦中心會針對幾個熱區做相關的探鑽，我們……"],["邱委員志偉：風險要降低、要分攤，他們才有動力和動機。"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：下一題。高雄的電網強韌計畫，我們曾經在2019年有防災型的電纜地下化計畫，主要是高雄沿海地區，北高雄是我的選區，從梓官、彌陀、永安到茄萣，這個部分不能只在南高雄而已，電網強韌計畫總統也很重視，這個部分是不是也可以把北高雄沿海地區的電纜地下化列為一個專案來處理？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這次山陀兒颱風造成屏東、高雄沿海嚴重災損，我們有這個經驗以後，我們會特別注意，就像委員所指導的，沿海電網的部分，我們會慎重考慮……"],["邱委員志偉：因為我注意到這個部分好像沒有針對北高雄，有嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是有的。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。另外，能源署，我們AI算力中心是未來用電需求增加的主要原因，是不是應該比照半導體，要向能源署提出能源使用說明書？"],["游署長振偉：我們目前是超過2萬5,000W以上的要跟我們提出能源使用說明書的審查，是根據它的用電規模。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你們已經有這個機制了嘛！"],["游署長振偉：是，根據用電規模。"],["邱委員志偉：所以未來只要是AI算力中心都要向你們提出能源使用說明書？"],["游署長振偉：不是所有的算力中心，要根據它的規模，有些是個別公司自己用的，用電量少就不一定，但它如果是大型的用電就需要。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我瞭解。下一題，興達電廠使用燃氣，未來不能叫興達火力發電廠，是興達發電廠，名稱要改，不是興達火力發電廠，現在不是燒煤的。它的燃氣1號機組商轉一再延後，第三次要延後到什麼時候？到2025年2月，會不會跳票？王總，你比較瞭解。"],["王總經理耀庭：不會跳票，現在1號機已經點火了，前幾天已經併聯在初步做測試發電。"],["邱委員志偉：1號機供應給誰你知道嗎？供應給橋科和南科，這很重要，萬一到時候有線沒電，人家已經開始在設廠了。我做召委要以身作則，時間到就要準時。"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們電會如期供應上來。"],["邱委員志偉：其他的部分我再私底下跟各位請教，謝謝。"],["主席：請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}