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45.354,"text":"核電廠的缺口但是我們盡量在這個綠能上面來補足因為報告委員這個核電廠的核電它是潔淨能源我們現在目前比較遇到的問題實際上面的問題是2030年綠電的問題"},{"start":149.366,"end":162.028,"text":"那我現在跟委員報告就是2030年那麼這個所有的國外的廠商要的是綠電所以我第一個可以滿足他綠電那核電他是潔淨的能源"},{"start":163.131,"end":180.747,"text":"他是為了approach這個2050年零碳的計畫所以我們必須要在2030年或者2032年希望把這個減碳的部分往前推所以這兩個命題稍微有點不是重複的"},{"start":181.127,"end":198.322,"text":"那我看到你們的那個電力的支援工序報告裡面顯示喔你們未來燃氣的機組要增加3092萬千瓦左右對不對是的那為什麼我剛還問你說碳費什麼時候開徵未來如果碳費開徵的話臺電要繳多少的碳費"},{"start":206.923,"end":212.666,"text":"所以這些東西全部都要轉嫁到我們的製造業要轉嫁到中小企業是不是不是不是轉嫁是因為因為他們在生產的過程當中有"},{"start":236.817,"end":238.479,"text":"那如果未來就是碳費的開徵以後電價會不會大幅度的上漲?"},{"start":258.68,"end":278.835,"text":"跟委員報告目前台電評估就是說開針之後我們在還沒有那個自主減量之前預估啦預估大概是15億那如果有自主減量那個部分還會大幅在下降要自主減量多少你們在2026年就是開針之前你們可以減量多少"},{"start":279.897,"end":306.677,"text":"這個部分其實台電在不管是燃煤的用量方面在過去這段時間都有蠻大幅度的這個進展那我這邊舉個例子來講那在以那個台中的我們就台中就好了那他的那個整個的二氧化碳的這個排放的部分二氧化碳排放的部分台中在103年是大概"},{"start":308.404,"end":309.945,"text":"那如果我們減煤或減碳的速度不如預期的時候會不會對電價有大幅度的影響?"},{"start":337.461,"end":348.094,"text":"不會因為即使是現在最嚴峻的狀況就是一年15億15億所以分攤在每一度電大概是0.01元以下"},{"start":349.52,"end":373.496,"text":"我想要請教部長那你看到了過去主計單位他所預估我們今年物價上漲的這樣子的一個目標他其實沒有評估到電價會兩次的上漲那這一次電價兩次的上漲你們評估是0.03%左右是不是但是好你說"},{"start":374.016,"end":392.875,"text":"報告委員我們這一次的0.03%的影響主要是因為我們這次大概96%的用電戶是沒有漲的是動漲的所以我們漲的那個4%是工業用電而且它是成長的企業而且它是出口的企業"},{"start":393.632,"end":408.417,"text":"那會不會所以你認為這些企業不會影響到製造業嗎?以及對於基礎產業會影響到我們不管是十一住行你認為不會影響嗎?"},{"start":409.397,"end":433.993,"text":"我認為目前這個電價這個電價審議委員他們充分的考量所以做出這樣的一個決定但是對我們來講我們台電公司是不斷的精進不斷的在想辦法降低成本但是影響我們成本最大的因素是材料所以當我現在的觀察我們現在得到的資料來顯示未來的材料目前應該是一個高點"},{"start":435.794,"end":453.524,"text":"影響的變數是匯率所以我也認為當然我不是中央銀行但是我們大概根據一般的財訊資料顯示我們的匯率應該是穩定的不會再往下扁這個大概是經濟學家他們的看法"},{"start":454.451,"end":455.312,"text":"那如果李江潔能檢"},{"start":471.932,"end":484.282,"text":"你們現在將節能減碳喔就是新增為投資抵減的項目那你能不能爭取未來碳費用來補助中小企業購買ASCO的這個服務呢"},{"start":485.169,"end":512.656,"text":"報告委員,未來的ESCO我們有兩個做法一個做法就是由經濟部聘請專家然後這些專家去審視完了以後請這個ESCO執行的業者來幫這些中小微企業來落實中小微企業他們我們現在的那個條例有改變了在ESCO這個處理ESCO這個金額他可以"},{"start":513.439,"end":513.459,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:28:15 - 11:37:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時28分）感謝我們呂玉玲召委扛下經濟委員會的重責大任，有請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長，我想請問一下，明年碳費是不是開徵？"],["郭部長智輝：我了解的應該是沒有開徵。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有開徵是不是？還不會開徵？"],["郭部長智輝：還不會開徵。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以明年還不會開徵？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是2026年才要開徵。"],["謝委員衣鳯：2026年才會開徵，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我想請問，我們目前地熱開採的目標是不是已經達到9GW？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候會達到？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，剛剛的9GW是我們講的可能的開採潛能，目前這都需要做相關的探鑽去探明到底哪個地方有多少地熱，所以我們現在由地礦中心和中油合作，中油今年會開鑽第一個深層井，我們做更進一步的了解之後，才知道到底有哪些可以開採出來……"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候可以達成9GW？"],["游署長振偉：這個要等到我們探鑽之後，確定有多少潛能的時候，才能訂出比較具體的推動計畫，因為我們講蘊藏量40GW能不能被開採出來發電，這需要一些科學的驗證。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以9GW是一個目標，目前沒有辦法來達成，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有辦法具體的說什麼時候可以開採出來9GW。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們目前因為核電廠關掉，未來要怎樣補核電的缺口？"],["郭部長智輝：核電廠的缺口我們儘量在綠能上面來補足，因為核電廠的核電是潔淨能源，我們目前實際遇到的問題是2030年綠電的問題，2030年所有國外的廠商要的是綠電，所以第一個我可以滿足它的綠電，核電是潔淨的能源，它是為了approach 2050年零碳的計畫，所以我們必須要在2030年或2032年把減碳的部分往前推，這兩個命題不是重複的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我看到你們電力資源供需報告裡面顯示，你們未來燃氣的機組要增加3,092萬瓩左右，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：剛才我為什麼問你碳費什麼時候開徵？未來如果碳費開徵的話，台電要繳多少碳費？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，台電繳的碳費只是我自己廠內用電還有線路損失這一塊需要繳碳費，至於發出來的電給這些工廠用的話，碳費是由那些工廠來支付，那是屬於範疇二。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以這些東西全部都要轉嫁到我們的製造業，要轉嫁到中小企業，是不是？"],["王總經理耀庭：不是轉嫁，是因為它們在生產的過程當中有排碳，所以這個部分就是由製造端來支付費用，不是轉嫁，這本來就是它要用的電，由它自己來支付碳費。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果未來碳費開徵以後，電價會不會大幅度上漲？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，目前台電評估開徵之後，我們在還沒有自主減量之前，預估大概15億元，如果有自主減量，這個部分還會大幅下降。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要自主減量多少？你們在2026年開徵之前可以減量多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：其實台電不管是在燃煤的用量，在過去這段時間都有大幅度的進展，舉例來說，二氧化碳的排放部分，就講臺中就好了，我們臺中在103年的使用量大概是三千多萬噸的煤，到112年已經降為1,209萬噸，等於說我們在二氧化碳的排放方面有了大幅度的進展，未來我們在減煤這部分還會持續努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果我們減煤或減碳的速度不如預期的時候，會不會對電價有大幅度的影響？"],["王總經理耀庭：不會，即使是現在最嚴峻的狀況就是一年15億元，分攤在每一度電大概是0.01元以下。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請教部長，過去主計單位所預估我們今年物價上漲的目標，其實沒有評估到電價會兩次上漲，這一次電價兩次上漲，你們評估是0.03%左右，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們這次0.03%的影響主要是因為這次大概96%的用電戶沒有漲，我們漲的4%是工業用電，而且是成長的企業，而且是出口的企業。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你認為這些企業不會影響到傳統製造業嗎？以及對於基礎產業會影響到我們，不管是食衣住行，你認為不會影響嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為目前電價審議委員充分考量，所以做出這樣的決定，對我們來講，台電公司是不斷的精進，不斷在想辦法降低成本，但是影響成本最大的因素是材料，就我現在的觀察、得到的資料顯示，材料成本目前應該是個高點。第二個影響的變數是匯率，當然我不是中央銀行，但是我們根據一般的財經資料顯示，我們的匯率應該是穩定的，不會再往下貶，這大概是經濟學家們的看法。如果這兩個關鍵變數穩定的話，應該會讓審議委員在價格上面的判斷更加精準。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。你們現在將節能減碳新增為投資抵減的項目，你能不能爭取未來碳費用來補助中小企業購買ESCO的服務呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，未來的ESCO我們有兩個做法，一個做法就是由經濟部聘請專家，由這些專家審視完以後，請ESCO執行的業者來幫助中小微企業落實。我們現在條例有改變了，處理ESCO的金額過去是10億元，現在委員希望可以通過的是18億元，也就是在這18億元的範圍內，我們都有獎勵條例，產創條例第十條之一有修改，從10億元修改18億元。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，以上，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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