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有請局長來 局長請"},{"start":9.332,"end":36.107,"text":"好謝謝主席局長好我是山地原住民的立法委員那麼我相當關心國家的安全問題當然我也很關心我們原住民在這其中所扮演的角色所以我先找幾個新聞我念一下關鍵字你聽聽看有海峽兩岸少數民族交流協會收受廣西台辦"},{"start":37.591,"end":40.003,"text":"現金資助免費旅遊招待"},{"start":41.348,"end":67.923,"text":"競選後援會網路宣傳拉票委託指示贊助支付獎金匯入銀行帳戶回報競選進度討論選戰策略規劃甚至是看到判刑才5個月4個月一顆髮金緩刑5年局長中國借選看起來已經是明確的事實對吧"},{"start":70.584,"end":94.884,"text":"對對我們掌握到多少我們從去年到現在國安單位查辦的這些有關共諜包括借選的案件應該有八十幾件那判刑的結果起訴的大概應該有四十幾件那您覺得如何我們很辛苦收集情資然後每次送給檢調到了法院那我們的反滲透法看起來很像是塑膠啊"},{"start":96.64,"end":115.535,"text":"對,就目前的法律條文的規範來講我們當然必須在情報的部分來支援檢調單位來查查相關的案件盡量來鞏固那個法律要件那讓這些案件送到檢方跟院方比較容易遇案我這樣提出來就是希望國安局這個部分因為我們覺得這是破口話"},{"start":118.13,"end":143.048,"text":"你了解我的意思吧我知道那為什麼進來了其實在我們的立法院我講一句實在話大家也都實有所聞也是不爭的事實許多的助理也都會講出來太多太多的辦公室從以前到現在都能夠接得到國台辦的電話省台辦的電話有時候會問說好久沒來啦什麼時候帶人來啊"},{"start":147.603,"end":173.369,"text":"甚至他們說因為統戰的經費很多花不完要核銷這也都是不爭的事實對吧對就相關的一個兩岸的互動我剛才跟其他委員講正常的交流我們沒有意見但是只要涉及到這種滲透的有違反到反滲透法所謂的發展組織的借選的或是來善惑影響公共安全秩序的所以你們都有掌握"},{"start":174.109,"end":201.671,"text":"對 這個部分的樣態我們會一直來持續關注因為我們也覺得原住民是個破口立法院更是個大破口啊因為我們常常可以看到新聞報導現在可能也都利用原住民的議題來去包裹那像這個之前引起公民團體抗議也是因為這樣的一個因素那我是要提到是說現在那個落地招待啊已經變了"},{"start":203.325,"end":221.045,"text":"我們地方的人都說哎呦怎麼那個大陸那邊都沒有喜歡我們老人了都要年輕人了他現在聚焦在元清對那你看看兩萬四千八新疆九天一般旅行社一模一樣的行程要六萬三千九百起"},{"start":222.046,"end":243.165,"text":"那我也知道說有很多校園統戰團有做相關系列報導那這些去的年輕人回來呢都說只是交朋友現在手段越來越柔軟了懷柔手段溫水煮蛙甚至他們自己去了還能說哎呀中國總算找到對的方法了"},{"start":244.386,"end":262.931,"text":"那請教一下國安局有掌握嗎有現在大概這方面的交流中共會特別鎖定到元清的部分那他們主要是透過一些文化的體育的那另外還有包括中共的地方的政府也會舉辦一些少數民族的文化活動來邀請元清過去"},{"start":263.351,"end":283.859,"text":"那這是第一部分主要的樣台第二部分是假如涉及到那個費用的部分那假如有一些協力團體來引介這些的交流活動那他是沒有相關理由的授權的證照的話這是我們另外一個查辦的重點那局長我在這邊只是要講我們都覺得好像"},{"start":285.103,"end":286.304,"text":"我舉個例子像是日本"},{"start":301.235,"end":325.787,"text":"或者是美國他們都在擔憂一件事情因為中資中國買了好多土地啊甚至是美國有66%的美國民意他們是希望能禁止中國在他們美國買土地局長我要跟你講這些年輕人假設他回來他的個資他當人頭我們現在有進法補償對不對是"},{"start":328.858,"end":337.628,"text":"這個禁法補償借名登記還看不出誰買你在日本買地在美國買地還看得出來喔我們這個原保地是要借人頭的"},{"start":339.434,"end":363.17,"text":"你們有沒有查過有多少有多少被中資買走沒有這部分假如中資或入籍人士要來採買我們的相關的不動產的話那內政部有個審查機制那我們會受邀去參加這個審查機制那審查重點就在於說採買的人有沒有黨政軍的背景採買的不動產是不是在重要的軍事設施敏感的設施周邊那局長我跟你講是"},{"start":363.55,"end":371.345,"text":"他們會不會買一些軍事像您知不知道連我們的關鍵設施都有可能被滲透欸他們有交流欸"},{"start":375.945,"end":393.446,"text":"國安局有掌握嗎?因為時間的關係我只是希望說我們都知道這些是認知作戰但是我們的國人都不怕那我覺得國安局你們掌握最多最多最多的情資都在你們的手上要揭露啊"},{"start":393.766,"end":394.206,"text":"有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":419.346,"end":424.672,"text":"可以在一周之內：也可以來跟我說明掌握的情形：好,我們來一個穩做作報告：好,謝謝局長：謝謝主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:04:05 - 12:11:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時4分）謝謝主席，有請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長好。我是山地原住民的立法委員，那麼我相當關心國家的安全問題，當然我也很關心我們原住民在這當中所扮演的角色，所以我先找了幾則新聞，我唸一下關鍵字，你聽聽看。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有海峽兩岸少數民族交流協會、收受廣西臺辦現金資助、免費旅遊招待、競選後援會、網路宣傳、拉票、委託、指示、贊助、支付獎金、匯入銀行帳戶、回報競選進度、討論選戰策略規劃，甚至是看到判刑才五個月、四個月、易科罰金、緩刑五年。局長，看起來中國介選已經是明確的事實，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那麼我們掌握到多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：從去年到現在，國安單位查辦有關共諜，包括介選的案件，應該有八十幾件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：判刑結果？"],["蔡局長明彥：起訴的應該有四十幾件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您覺得如何？我們每次辛苦蒐集情資，送給檢調，到了法院，我們的反滲透法看起來很像是塑膠！"],["蔡局長明彥：就目前法律條文的規範來講，我們必須在情報的部分支援檢調單位查察相關的案件，儘量來鞏固那個法律要件，讓這些案件送到檢方跟院方，比較容易立案。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我這樣提出來，就是希望國安局留意這個部分，因為我們覺得這是破口，你了解我的意思吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：講一句實在話，其實我們在立法院也都時有所聞，已是不爭的事實，許多助理也都會講出來。從以前到現在，太多太多的辦公室都接得到國台辦的電話、省台辦的電話，有時候還會說好久沒來，什麼時候帶人來？他們甚至還說，因為統戰的經費很多，花不完要核銷，這也都是不爭的事實，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就兩岸相關的互動，我剛才也跟其他委員講，正常的交流，我們沒有意見，但只要涉及到這種滲透的，有違反到反滲透法所謂的發展組織的、介選的或是來煽惑影響公共安全秩序的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們都有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個部分的樣態，我們會持續來關注。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們也覺得原住民是個破口，立法院更是個大破口，我們常常看到新聞報導，現在可能也都利用原住民的議題來去包裹，像之前會引起公民團體抗議，也是因為這樣的一個因素。我現在要說的是，那個落地招待已經變了，我們地方的人都說：怎麼大陸那邊都沒有喜歡我們老人了，都要年輕人了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他們現在聚焦在原青。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，你看24,800元新疆九天遊，一般旅行社一模一樣的行程要63,900元起；我也知道很多校園統戰團做過相關系列報導，這些去過的年輕人回來都說，只是交朋友。現在手段是越來越柔軟了，懷柔手段溫水煮蛙，甚至他們自己去了，還能說中國總算找到對的方法了。請教國安局可有掌握嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。現在這方面的交流，中共大概會特別鎖定原青的部分，主要是透過一些文化的、體育的。另外包括中共的地方的政府，也會舉辦一些少數民族的文化活動邀請原青過去，這是第一部分主要的樣態；第二部分，如果涉及到費用，由一些協力團體來引介這些交流活動，他們沒有相關旅遊的授權證照的話，也是我們另外一個查辦的重點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長，我在這邊要講，這一些好像很嚴重影響我們的國安，但很多人都在抱怨，好像怎麼做都沒事！我為什麼要這樣講？我就舉個例子，像日本、美國，他們都在擔憂中國用中資買了好多土地，美國甚至有66%的民意，希望禁止中國在美國買土地。","局長，假設這些年輕人回來了，他的個資被當了人頭，我們現在有禁伐補償，這個禁伐補償借名登記還看不出誰買，你在日本買地，在美國買地都還看得出來，我們這個原保地是要借人頭的，你們有沒有查過，有多少是被中資買走？"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。假如中資或陸籍人士要來採買我們相關的不動產，內政部有個審查機制，我們會受邀去參加這個審查機制。審查的重點就在於，採買的人有沒有黨政軍的背景，採買的不動產是不是位在重要的軍事設施、敏感的設施周邊？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長知不知道，連我們的關鍵設施都有可能被滲透，他們有交流，國安局有掌握嗎？因為時間的關係，我只想說我們都知道這些是認知作戰，但是我們的國人都不怕，國安局掌握最多、最多、最多的情資，都在你們的手上，你們要揭露，要反守為攻。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它就跟詐騙一樣，手法越來越多元，越來越讓你渾然不知，希望國安局在這個部分能夠有更積極的作法，要不然，我們快要沒有信心了。大家都知道這些事情都存在，但是從來沒有人因為這件事受到什麼嚴重的懲罰或揭露，都沒有！是不是可以在一週之內，來跟我說明掌握的情形？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來跟委員做會後的報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝局長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員，邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}