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局長請謝主席 洪委員好蔡局長 蔡局長我特別看了一下我們國安局的業務報告其實國家安全是我們重中之重那我們也認為是說大家要共同來捍衛跟回復那其中我想請教一下是說對於我們不管是能源等相關的一些這種能源"},{"start":29.443,"end":58.306,"text":"算不算是重要的戰略物資因為我們有人講說電力國力這都非常重要是是是依照那個政案管理法我們剛提到的都是關鍵設施是關鍵設施對那我不知道說局長有沒有看到說昨天這個經濟部部長講說我們要讓拉電纜或是說用船運輸這個電從菲律賓從外國回來到台灣跟我們台灣的這個企業使用有看到這有沒有相關的"},{"start":59.187,"end":71.07,"text":"對,因為這個是可能經濟部在評估的方案那還沒有啟動到一個機制請國安局去提供意見那假如有的話我們會提出我們的相關情報但是部長也不用他就直接對讓公眾都知道所以說現在大家都知道哇原來部長有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":84.773,"end":98.818,"text":"所以第一他沒有跟國安局這邊討論過或是說國安局沒有收到經濟部有正式還沒有還沒有沒有那第二現在大家也都知道了那局長以您專業的角度來判斷一下我們跟菲律賓沒有邦交"},{"start":99.918,"end":122.285,"text":"菲律賓兩年前他們的領導人對於相對來說他是比較親中國大陸的政策的現在的領導人相對來講是跟中國大陸的關係比較淡但是菲律賓的一個政經情勢您的通篇的一個業務報告裡面也都在講我們政經情勢跟我們國家的安全的部分菲律賓"},{"start":123.285,"end":123.485,"text":"提供給予"},{"start":141.391,"end":145.837,"text":"因為這個就已經牽涉到國際情勢那如果說菲律賓這個國家跟我們沒有那麼close甚至他們不是我們的邦交國的時候"},{"start":157.774,"end":174.609,"text":"那今天如果假設他的領導人換了然後變成是比較親中國大陸你的通篇報告裡面都認為中國大陸是我們現在最大的家鄉敵那這樣子會不會我們的經濟我們的發電命脈國家安全的重要的物資跟能源被掌握在別人的手上"},{"start":175.989,"end":192.456,"text":"這樣到底是強化民主夥伴的合作關係還是弱化我們的國家安全理解委員的關切以及背後的那個問題意識我充分理解但因為我看那個經濟部可能他還在初步的一個如果經濟部報上來以國安單位專業評估你會怎麼建議"},{"start":196.577,"end":213.329,"text":"我們會先看經濟部的內容到底方案是什麼比如說剛委員提到的是日本是菲律賓那放在哪一個地點那那個地點的基礎設施完不完善那以及可能聯通的管道網絡該怎麼鋪設這要有一個全面的方案在評估比較能夠從國安的角度來發揮"},{"start":215.01,"end":239.429,"text":"有講的也沒講耶對阿但這次要歷經個評估過程局長不用那麼的小心啦我現在很直接的講我說實在話我們都還沒有講因為也有媒體就已經講是說哇好像3月4月5月已經有廠商去菲律賓有做前期投資喔所以現在部長去講的話是不是跟這個廠商有一問一答是要拉抬股價還是什麼不知道"},{"start":240.069,"end":268.343,"text":"但是至少從國安的角度來說能源電力我們有辦法依賴你今天不是在台灣今天在台灣有任何一個電廠大家就已經叫翻了就沒有想到我們居然是說遠在幾百公里別的國家不是我們的領土我們要把我們的電放在那邊然後靠著是合約靠著是商業模式把那個電給買回來那如果說今天有任何的狀況我都不講說甚至海底電有沒有什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":269.784,"end":293.645,"text":"你覺得這對於國安來講到底它是增強我們的國安還是催化我們的國安對我想後面我們來跟經濟部多了解一些他們相關規劃的細節那假如找到細節的話我們再來做局長用專業來講啦如果說真的不可行或者是說真的是可能會圖利的狀況的話以國安局的角度來說好好的提出專業那另外一個部分"},{"start":294.898,"end":315.379,"text":"蔡總統蔡前總統現在有出訪歐洲那也媒體報導是說他可能也會到前往美國那我想只要是我們中華民國現任總統現任元首前元首只要是代表青天白日蠻地紅代表中華民國出訪我們沒有拒絕或是沒有不願意的理由"},{"start":315.899,"end":343.392,"text":"但這個部分我們國安局有沒有掌握是說那對岸有沒有可能會有什麼反制措施這我們會特別注意因為就國安局的權責來講法律的權責我們必須要提供現任總統安危的保護所以對於總統出訪的地點路線出現的場合以及會不會有當地中共僑團的動員那這部分我們都有在密切的做那我們有評估過嗎因為現在有可能蔡前總統他前往美國有沒有評估說對岸有可能也會有什麼樣的"},{"start":343.712,"end":364.077,"text":"美國這部分蔡前總統辦公室還沒有對外有說明有不適合做評論如果說有的話如果說真的成行國安局也會做評估不管現任總統要到哪個國家去我們大概都會做一個評估安全的評估因為這是我們的法律責任還是要保障我們的元首安全當然當然謝謝洪孟楷委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:18:56.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:18:57.910000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請蔡局長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:18:57.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:04.233000+08:00","text":"局長請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:04.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:05.233000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，洪委員好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:05.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:15.158000+08:00","text":"蔡局長，我特別看了一下國安局的業務報告，國家安全是我們重中之重，我們也認為大家要共同來捍衛跟維護。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:15.158000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:16.579000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:16.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:27.184000+08:00","text":"其中我想請教的是，對我們來說，能源等相關的一些算不算是重要的戰略物資？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:27.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:30.327000+08:00","text":"因為有人說電力、國力都非常重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:30.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:34.630000+08:00","text":"是，依照資安管理法，委員剛剛提到都是關鍵設施。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:36.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:36.752000+08:00","text":"關鍵設施？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:37.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:52.105000+08:00","text":"我不知道局長有沒有看到，昨天經濟部長說我們要從菲律賓、從外國拉電纜，或是用船把電運輸回來到臺灣，供臺灣的企業使用？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:52.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:53.346000+08:00","text":"有看到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:53.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:54.286000+08:00","text":"這有沒有相關的安全疑慮？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:54.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:55.286000+08:00","text":"有看到這樣的報導，但……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:55.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:56.286000+08:00","text":"我們之前有評估過嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:56.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:19:57.286000+08:00","text":"從國外輸入電給我們臺灣兩千三百五十萬人使用？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:19:55.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:03.309000+08:00","text":"這個可能是經濟部在評估的方案，還沒有啟動到一個機制，請國安局去提供意見；假如有的話，我們會做相關的……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:03.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:06.570000+08:00","text":"部長就直接讓公眾都知道，現在大家都知道─哇！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:06.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:07.050000+08:00","text":"原來部長有這樣一個想法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:20.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:25.675000+08:00","text":"所以，第一，他沒有跟國安局這邊討論過，或是說國安局沒有收到經濟部有正式……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:25.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:25.955000+08:00","text":"還沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:27.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:48.122000+08:00","text":"第二，現在大家也都知道了，局長，依您專業的角度來判斷，我們跟菲律賓沒有邦交，菲律賓兩年前的領導人，相對來說，是比較親中國大陸政策的，現在的領導人相對來講，跟中國大陸的關係比較淡。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:49.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:20:58.285000+08:00","text":"您剛剛的業務報告裡面，通篇都在講我們的政經情勢跟我們的國家安全，菲律賓跟我們的關係有沒有真的很close？","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:20:58.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:03.061500+08:00","text":"如果我們今天有10%、20%的電力是由菲律賓這邊運輸進來，他們有辦法確保會一直運輸，提供給予？","quality":0.103},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:03.061500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:07.838000+08:00","text":"不好意思打斷委員，我們現在還不太知道，經濟部規劃的細節和整個方案內容是什麼，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:07.838000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:12.614500+08:00","text":"但他就直接講日本跟菲律賓。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:12.614500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:17.391000+08:00","text":"所以，我們在這裡不太適合做進一步的評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:17.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:42.702000+08:00","text":"因為這個就已經牽扯到國際情勢，如果菲律賓這個國家跟我們沒有那麼close，甚至他們不是我們的邦交國的時候，今天如果他的領導人換了，變成是比較親中國大陸，你的通篇報告裡面都認為，中國大陸是我們現在最大的假想敵……是，是。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:42.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:50.589000+08:00","text":"若是這樣，我們的經濟、我們的發電命脈、國家安全重要的物資跟能源，會不會被掌握在別人的手上？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:50.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:51.989000+08:00","text":"當然可以理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:51.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:21:57.391000+08:00","text":"這樣到底是強化民主夥伴的合作關係，還是弱化我們的國家安全？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:21:58.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:01.573000+08:00","text":"對，理解委員的關切，以及背後的那個問題意識，我充分理解。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:01.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:04.454000+08:00","text":"但因為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:04.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:05.454000+08:00","text":"您的專業評估呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:04.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:07.875000+08:00","text":"我看經濟部可能還在初步的一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:07.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:08.456000+08:00","text":"如果經濟部報上來，以國安單位專業評估，你會怎麼建議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:12.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:15.439000+08:00","text":"我們會先看經濟部的內容方案到底是什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:15.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:16.780000+08:00","text":"比如委員剛剛提到的是日本？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:16.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:17.741000+08:00","text":"是菲律賓？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:17.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:19.442000+08:00","text":"放在哪一個地點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:19.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:22.144000+08:00","text":"那個地點的基礎設施完不完善？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:22.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:26.567000+08:00","text":"可能聯通的管道網絡該怎麼鋪設？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:26.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:29.329000+08:00","text":"這都要有一個全面的方案，再評估比較，才能夠從國安的角度來發揮。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:31.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:31.651000+08:00","text":"有講等於沒講！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:32.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:34.533000+08:00","text":"對，但這是必經的評估過程。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:34.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:52.686000+08:00","text":"局長不用那麼的小心，我說實在話，我們都還沒有講，但因為有媒體講了，好像3月、4月、5月已經有廠商去菲律賓做前期投資，所以現在部長講的話，是不是跟這些廠商一問一答？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:53.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:55.188000+08:00","text":"要拉抬股價，還是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:55.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:22:55.409000+08:00","text":"我們不知道！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:22:56.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:23:02.072000+08:00","text":"但至少從國安的角度來說，能源、電力我們有辦法依賴別的國家嗎？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:23:03.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:23:20.481000+08:00","text":"今天在臺灣有任何一個電廠，大家就已經叫翻了，沒想到我們居然要把我們的電放在幾百公里遠的別的國家那邊，不是我們的領土，然後靠著合約，靠著商業模式，把那個電給買回來。","quality":0.77},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:23:20.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:23:29.688000+08:00","text":"如果今天有任何的狀況，我甚至不講海底電纜有沒有什麼樣的問題，你覺得這對於國安來講，到底它是增強我們的國安，還是脆化我們的國安？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:23:30.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:23:36.574000+08:00","text":"我們會後再來跟經濟部多了解一些他們相關規劃的細節，假如有掌握到細節的話，我們再來做進一步的評估。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:23:36.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:23:47.804000+08:00","text":"局長，要用專業來講，如果真的不可行，或是真的可能會有圖利的狀況，請以國安局的角度，好好提出專業。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:23:48.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:11.359000+08:00","text":"另外，蔡前總統現在出訪歐洲，有媒體報導說他可能也會前往美國；我想中華民國現任元首或卸任元首，只要是代表青天白日滿地紅，代表中華民國出訪，我們沒有拒絕也沒有不願意的理由！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:12.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:17.322000+08:00","text":"對這個部分，國安局有沒有掌握，對岸可能會有什麼樣的反制措施？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:17.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:32.509000+08:00","text":"這個我們會特別來注意，因為就國安局的法律權責來講，我們必須提供卸任總統安危的保護，所以，對於總統出訪的地點、路線、出現的場合，以及會不會有當地中共僑團的動員，這部分我們都有密切注意。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:34.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:39.372000+08:00","text":"因為蔡前總統有可能前往美國，我們有沒有評估對岸可能會有什麼樣的動作？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:39.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:45.579000+08:00","text":"美國的部分，蔡前總統的辦公室還沒有對外說明，我不適合做評論。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:45.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:49.003000+08:00","text":"但已有媒體報導出來，如果有的話，如果真的成行，國安局也會做評估？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:49.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:55.571000+08:00","text":"不管卸任總統要到哪個國家去，我們都會做安全的評估，因為這是我們的法律責任。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:56.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:24:57.814000+08:00","text":"好，還是要保障我們的元首安全。當然。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:24:59.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T12:25:00.077000+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員，局長請回。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:25:00.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:25:06.577000+08:00","text":"今天登記質詢的委員，除不在場者外，均已發言完畢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:25:06.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:25:08.877000+08:00","text":"報告及詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:25:09.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:25:28.034143+08:00","text":"委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供；但是，如局長剛才答應兩位委員於一週內答復的，或另有約定期限者從其所定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:25:28.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:25:34.619857+08:00","text":"以上如有涉及機密部分，請確實依相關保密規定辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:25:34.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:25:37.205571+08:00","text":"本日會議到此結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:25:37.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:26:00.648429+08:00","text":"通常業務報告後，都要審查預算，我們期待我們委員會相關的預算，能夠早一天送進委員會進行審查，因為事涉不管是國安、國防都是重要事情，我們希望業務報告後，能更儘快來審查我們相關的預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:26:00.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:26:03.805571+08:00","text":"今天會議到此結束，散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T12:26:04.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T12:26:05.248429+08:00","text":"散會（12時25分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:18:56 - 12:25:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":922,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：蔡局長，我特別看了一下國安局的業務報告，國家安全是我們重中之重，我們也認為大家要共同來捍衛跟維護。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中我想請教的是，對我們來說，能源等相關的一些算不算是重要的戰略物資？因為有人說電力、國力都非常重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，依照資安管理法，委員剛剛提到都是關鍵設施。"],["洪委員孟楷：關鍵設施？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不知道局長有沒有看到，昨天經濟部長說我們要從菲律賓、從外國拉電纜，或是用船把電運輸回來到臺灣，供臺灣的企業使用？"],["蔡局長明彥：有看到……"],["洪委員孟楷：這有沒有相關的安全疑慮？"],["蔡局長明彥：有看到這樣的報導，但……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們之前有評估過嗎？從國外輸入電給我們臺灣兩千三百五十萬人使用？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個可能是經濟部在評估的方案，還沒有啟動到一個機制，請國安局去提供意見；假如有的話，我們會做相關的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長就直接讓公眾都知道，現在大家都知道─哇！原來部長有這樣一個想法。所以，第一，他沒有跟國安局這邊討論過，或是說國安局沒有收到經濟部有正式……"],["蔡局長明彥：還沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，現在大家也都知道了，局長，依您專業的角度來判斷，我們跟菲律賓沒有邦交，菲律賓兩年前的領導人，相對來說，是比較親中國大陸政策的，現在的領導人相對來講，跟中國大陸的關係比較淡。您剛剛的業務報告裡面，通篇都在講我們的政經情勢跟我們的國家安全，菲律賓跟我們的關係有沒有真的很close？如果我們今天有10%、20%的電力是由菲律賓這邊運輸進來，他們有辦法確保會一直運輸，提供給予？"],["蔡局長明彥：不好意思打斷委員，我們現在還不太知道，經濟部規劃的細節和整個方案內容是什麼，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：但他就直接講日本跟菲律賓。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以，我們在這裡不太適合做進一步的評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這個就已經牽扯到國際情勢，如果菲律賓這個國家跟我們沒有那麼close，甚至他們不是我們的邦交國的時候，今天如果他的領導人換了，變成是比較親中國大陸，你的通篇報告裡面都認為，中國大陸是我們現在最大的假想敵……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：若是這樣，我們的經濟、我們的發電命脈、國家安全重要的物資跟能源，會不會被掌握在別人的手上？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然可以理解。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣到底是強化民主夥伴的合作關係，還是弱化我們的國家安全？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，理解委員的關切，以及背後的那個問題意識，我充分理解。但因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：您的專業評估呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我看經濟部可能還在初步的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果經濟部報上來，以國安單位專業評估，你會怎麼建議？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會先看經濟部的內容方案到底是什麼？比如委員剛剛提到的是日本？是菲律賓？放在哪一個地點？那個地點的基礎設施完不完善？可能聯通的管道網絡該怎麼鋪設？這都要有一個全面的方案，再評估比較，才能夠從國安的角度來發揮。"],["洪委員孟楷：有講等於沒講！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，但這是必經的評估過程。"],["洪委員孟楷：局長不用那麼的小心，我說實在話，我們都還沒有講，但因為有媒體講了，好像3月、4月、5月已經有廠商去菲律賓做前期投資，所以現在部長講的話，是不是跟這些廠商一問一答？要拉抬股價，還是什麼？我們不知道！但至少從國安的角度來說，能源、電力我們有辦法依賴別的國家嗎？今天在臺灣有任何一個電廠，大家就已經叫翻了，沒想到我們居然要把我們的電放在幾百公里遠的別的國家那邊，不是我們的領土，然後靠著合約，靠著商業模式，把那個電給買回來。如果今天有任何的狀況，我甚至不講海底電纜有沒有什麼樣的問題，你覺得這對於國安來講，到底它是增強我們的國安，還是脆化我們的國安？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會後再來跟經濟部多了解一些他們相關規劃的細節，假如有掌握到細節的話，我們再來做進一步的評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：局長，要用專業來講，如果真的不可行，或是真的可能會有圖利的狀況，請以國安局的角度，好好提出專業。","另外，蔡前總統現在出訪歐洲，有媒體報導說他可能也會前往美國；我想中華民國現任元首或卸任元首，只要是代表青天白日滿地紅，代表中華民國出訪，我們沒有拒絕也沒有不願意的理由！對這個部分，國安局有沒有掌握，對岸可能會有什麼樣的反制措施？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們會特別來注意，因為就國安局的法律權責來講，我們必須提供卸任總統安危的保護，所以，對於總統出訪的地點、路線、出現的場合，以及會不會有當地中共僑團的動員，這部分我們都有密切注意。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為蔡前總統有可能前往美國，我們有沒有評估對岸可能會有什麼樣的動作？"],["蔡局長明彥：美國的部分，蔡前總統的辦公室還沒有對外說明，我不適合做評論。"],["洪委員孟楷：但已有媒體報導出來，如果有的話，如果真的成行，國安局也會做評估？"],["蔡局長明彥：不管卸任總統要到哪個國家去，我們都會做安全的評估，因為這是我們的法律責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，還是要保障我們的元首安全。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，局長請回。","今天登記質詢的委員，除不在場者外，均已發言完畢。報告及詢答結束。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供；但是，如局長剛才答應兩位委員於一週內答復的，或另有約定期限者從其所定。以上如有涉及機密部分，請確實依相關保密規定辦理。","本日會議到此結束。通常業務報告後，都要審查預算，我們期待我們委員會相關的預算，能夠早一天送進委員會進行審查，因為事涉不管是國安、國防都是重要事情，我們希望業務報告後，能更儘快來審查我們相關的預算。","今天會議到此結束，散會。","散會（12時25分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}