{"error":false,"id":["155609"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155609,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155609","日期":"2024-10-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-19-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-16T13:07:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-16T13:18:18+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"委員名稱":"呂玉玲","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69049711021f8239488abd6de18eea4dbe1766e2bcab8f8c7fc2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.894718750000001,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.17159375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.20534375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.85471875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.925968750000003,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.47846875,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.06471875,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.836593750000002,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.33846875,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.38034375,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.43471875,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":38.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.52284375,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.85159375,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.24784375,"end":46.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.95096875,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.95909375,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.96659375,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.47659375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.68721875,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.72034375,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.48096875,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.93596875,"end":95.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.98221875,"end":96.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.08346875000001,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.82159375,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.85909375,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.64346875000001,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.30534375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.58409375000002,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.24034375000002,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.72096875,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.69471875000002,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.04034375,"end":156.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":161.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":167.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.98784375000002,"end":168.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.38846875000002,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.50159375,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.78409375,"end":180.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.46659375000002,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.81096875,"end":193.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.00909375,"end":195.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.72596875000002,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.17721875,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.86471875,"end":203.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.96096875,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.14659375000002,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.21409375000002,"end":205.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.71846875000003,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.95409375000003,"end":221.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.53596875000002,"end":225.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.10534375,"end":236.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.94346875000002,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.46221875,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.03409375,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.52721875,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.51846875,"end":256.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.17221875,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.82596875,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.49659375000005,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.98971875,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.46659375,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.56346875,"end":314.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.71159375,"end":320.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.09471875,"end":330.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.02971875000003,"end":332.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.75534375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.93221875,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.94034375,"end":337.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.64034375,"end":339.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.96096875,"end":347.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.70659375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.46596875,"end":373.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.55034375,"end":348.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.95846875,"end":356.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.33534375000005,"end":376.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.02284375000005,"end":376.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.07346875,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.03534375000004,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.97159375,"end":411.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.57846875,"end":426.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.73721875,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.77909375,"end":425.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.02346875,"end":426.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.36096875000004,"end":427.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.96409375,"end":428.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.80784375,"end":430.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.46159375,"end":430.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.10284375000003,"end":437.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.91221875,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.38034375,"end":446.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.23971875,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.52659375,"end":447.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.01596875,"end":447.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.03284375000004,"end":447.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.10034375000004,"end":447.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.11721875,"end":469.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.19971875000005,"end":459.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.48659375000005,"end":459.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.39284375000005,"end":466.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.45971875000004,"end":537.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.91471875,"end":474.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.33221875000004,"end":475.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.36596875000004,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.55471875,"end":482.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.19159375,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.5078437500001,"end":544.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.89096875,"end":546.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.9922187500001,"end":546.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.35909375,"end":550.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.2234687499999,"end":551.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.1303437500001,"end":575.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.70471875,"end":581.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.88096875,"end":586.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.8928437500001,"end":588.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.8334687500001,"end":598.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.1147187500001,"end":616.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.38471875,"end":599.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.2934687500001,"end":622.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.4153437500001,"end":618.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.5078437500001,"end":646.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.6809687500001,"end":648.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.7609687500001,"end":649.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.72284375,"end":652.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.51971875,"end":655.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.15221875,"end":655.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.16909375,"end":655.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.5234687500001,"end":656.26596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.169,"end":11.266,"text":"呂玉玲委員謝謝主席請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":19.115,"end":38.874,"text":"部長辛苦了從你一上任經濟部長本席對你期待非常的大因為你來自產業瞭解產業的需求會從務實面來做好更多的管理尤其是台電的虧損我相信有你的運籌帷幄你的經營管理一定會讓他們轉虧為盈"},{"start":40.956,"end":62.148,"text":"所以早上提了很多的從呂宋島也好從哪裡把電運回來這個都是10年以後的當然要未雨綢繆但是還是要從務實面著手所有的案子都必須要可行性的評估案子成熟之後我們再公告再來執行對不對所以我們今天就要從務實面來討論"},{"start":65.349,"end":87.494,"text":"電價現在已經上漲民生動漲我們在產業上漲了12.5%在漲的部分我們擔心的就是你漲了產業但是產業的成本這個就會轉嫁到消費者身上我們電價連續漲了這個4波之後的話你看我們民生就漲了將近要到12%"},{"start":90.435,"end":90.575,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":111.992,"end":112.573,"text":"本席建議部長"},{"start":132.671,"end":138.617,"text":"我們必須要在台電的營運上面來看他到了2023年他虧損將近3826億到現在今年將近4400億在我們給台電增資2500億再給他們補助500億在1113年114年各補助1000億要高達5000億這個經費"},{"start":156.187,"end":179.313,"text":"所以我們一定要怎麼樣去開源節流怎麼樣去找財源就是這麼簡單所以本期特別去了解一下那現在因為天然氣本來是價格是高漲的現在已經回落了在回落當下經濟部也是可以中中協調一下是不是請中油啊可以把這價格調降給台電"},{"start":182.483,"end":182.943,"text":"現在我們這個中油其實也是虧損的"},{"start":205.816,"end":216.717,"text":"現在因為這個價錢可能是合約式的但是現在我們的國際物價的話天然氣已經回落啦價錢都有降下來了嘛那所以是現在事實上現在價錢是多少錢呢"},{"start":218.148,"end":236.593,"text":"現在這價格其實是14.5的這個價格對啊所以是不是可以調降一些讓我們的台電成本的上原物料的成本上也可以調降下來那你也要去找其他的裁員讓他的損失可以再降低這方面"},{"start":237.373,"end":256.922,"text":"跟委員報告,這個油跟這個天然氣,我們會從這個建制成本上面,我們會去努力來降價,我想這個也是您剛才知道,我想讓我們台電的成本可以下降,這是一個非常重要的因素,所以我們朝這方面來努力"},{"start":257.222,"end":259.705,"text":"長這樣你會調漲嗎?現在已經回落了你就要降下來了這個請部長去多多溝通啦幫台電多爭取一點其他方面也是要重視的就是說因為我們現在主要的電力都是以火力發電為主宰的那個發電的電力"},{"start":275.842,"end":287.951,"text":"所以在我們看到在2025年我們的再生能源要達到20%但是到今年為止大概是12%而已那2050年的話要達到60%如果達不到我看"},{"start":291.613,"end":293.054,"text":"我們會參考委員的這個指教我們會深刻的檢討"},{"start":321.295,"end":346.57,"text":"因為我們特別提到這些的話就是能源政策能源的配比的問題啦所以剛剛看你的那個報告書裡面特別講到核電非核不是神主牌啦既然不是的話我們就必須要討論不要有設定不要有意思形態每一個可能穩定我們的供電的我們都是我們選項進行討論是不是是"},{"start":348.55,"end":350.571,"text":"這三個前提之下可以討論"},{"start":377.853,"end":383.056,"text":"所以本席會這樣子問的意思就是說現在我們民生動漲了現在漲產業但是產業的話你們可能分為一般性跟所有必需性的一些產業去做調整這個電價但是我們看到半導體的產業他們在供電量是佔了16.5%是我們所有發電量的這個最重要他佔的比例是最高的或許我們可以研議讓使用耗電量最高的部分他也可以負責更高的電價"},{"start":407.23,"end":423.085,"text":"是 他們 我們目前的這個計價的方式 確實是這樣就是說用電最大的這個廠商 他們有一級的 我們是分級的所以 您剛所指教的這個大的用電商 他其實付的…所以半導體油比較高嗎?"},{"start":423.085,"end":424.867,"text":"是比較高的他是比較高 到14%嗎?"},{"start":424.867,"end":426.809,"text":"他現在是付的是比較高的他有到14% 15%嗎?"},{"start":426.809,"end":426.829,"text":"有"},{"start":429.16,"end":446.056,"text":"王總你要說什麼上一次這一波電價是沒有在做區別但是上一次的條價是4月份的條價是所以應該可以繼續研議可以繼續這樣子做他既然是高耗電量我們就請他多負擔一點才不會對我們民生有更大的衝擊"},{"start":447.117,"end":465.484,"text":"其他的廠商我們是根據深度節能來幫助這些比較中小的公司但是它用電耗電比較多的我們透過深度節能的方法大概可以看出績效因為每個公司產業不一樣我們可以看到大概可以省7%的電費"},{"start":469.645,"end":474.267,"text":"臺電才會轉虧為益這是非常重要的所以我們希望第一個就是部長去溝通這個我們的天然氣可不可以降價第二個就是讓我們的用電大戶高用電量的話可以調整他的電價再來的話我們希望的話就是讓我們的所有綠電都能夠穩定這個部分的話想辦法趕快達標"},{"start":498.677,"end":508.187,"text":"因為我們剛剛看你們所有的數字裡面科學數字部長喜歡說科學數字都我們擔心的是不能達標那接下來本席要講的就是離岸風電剛剛早上大家有提到那3-1 3-2的話目前的話還是國產那本席要提醒的也是跟部長講的"},{"start":517.017,"end":517.557,"text":"我想會阿沒有阿"},{"start":544.892,"end":545.593,"text":"政府所簽訂的合約內容是不能改變的"},{"start":561.695,"end":563.036,"text":"是 報告委員 我們現在的目的就是幫助國產化的這個廠商"},{"start":586.937,"end":590.58,"text":"提醒女士當然他沒有競爭力他們雖然是出的草創來成軍但是我們政府當然要輔導他但他投下去的成本一開始是這麼龐大的不能因為一開始就把他丟到國際上去跟他競爭這樣子的話他競爭力會"},{"start":615.276,"end":615.436,"text":"﹚呂玉玲"},{"start":631.757,"end":655.665,"text":"現在因為我們去遵照我們蔡英文總統的這個政策去投入了這個資金現在他們已經投入了也整軍完成了我們要繼續輔導他畢竟是國產的我們才會鞏固自己的發電能量這才是永續的好不好是沒有錯是的那請部長特別要注意注重這一點因為國產的還是需要靠我們經濟部來扶持的是好謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:07:21 - 13:18:18","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（13時7分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長辛苦了，從你一上任經濟部長，本席對你期待非常大，因為你來自產業，了解產業的需求，會從務實面來做好更多的管理，尤其是台電的虧損，我相信有你的運籌帷幄、你的經營管理，一定會讓它們轉虧為盈。早上提了很多的，從呂宋島也好，從哪裡把電運回來，這個都是10年以後的，當然要未雨綢繆，但是還是要從務實面著手，所有的案子都必須要做可行性的評估，等案子成熟之後，我們再公告、再來執行，對不對？所以我們今天就從務實面來討論。","電價現在已經上漲，雖然民生凍漲，但我們在產業上漲了12.5%，我們擔心的就是漲了產業，但是產業的成本就會轉嫁到消費者身上。我們電價連續漲了4波之後，你看民生就漲了將近12%，而產業上漲了將近42.2%。最重要的，我們要怎樣讓它轉虧為盈，本席也要請部長，我們在行政院、在經濟部也必須要有擔當，因為你不能說要政府補助才不漲電價，沒有補助就要漲電價，這變成掛在一起了，變成我們立法院必須要幫你們經濟部、幫你們台電來背書，這不是一個很好的說法和作法。","所以我們從務實面來講的話，本席在這邊要建議部長，我們必須在台電的營運上面來看，它到2023年虧損將近3,826億元，到現在將近4,400億元，我們給台電增資2,500億元，再補助500億元，在113年、114年各補助1,000億元，經費高達5,000億元，所以我們一定要怎樣去開源節流，怎樣去找財源，就是這麼簡單。","所以本席特別去了解一下，天然氣本來價格高漲，現在已經回落了，在回落當下，經濟部也是可以從中協調一下，是不是請中油可以把價格調降給台電？因為本席看到2021年天然氣每立方公尺是8塊錢，到了2023年要17塊錢，漲了1倍，這部分可不可以調降？部長要不要去跟中油談一下？"],["郭部長智輝：現在中油其實也是虧損的。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為價錢可能是合約式的，但是現在國際天然氣價格已經回落了，價錢都有降下來了，現在價錢是多少錢呢？"],["郭部長智輝：現在價格是14.5元。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以是不是可以調降一下，讓台電原物料成本可以調降下來？你也要去找其他財源，讓它的損失可以再降低，部長有什麼開源節流的方式？"],["郭部長智輝：油和天然氣我們會從建置成本上面努力來降價，這也是委員剛才所指導的，讓台電的成本可以下降，這是非常重要的因素，我們朝這方面來努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：漲價你會調漲嘛！現在已經回落了，你就要降下來，請部長去多多溝通，幫台電多爭取一些，其他方面也要重視的是，因為我們現在主要電力都是以火力發電為主載的電力，我們看到2025年再生能源要達到20%，但是到今年為止，大概12%而已；到2050年要達到60%，如果達不到，我看2030年我們要達到30%也可能達不到，達不到的話，我們可能繼續用煤炭、天然氣，這些都是國外進來的材料，就會受到國際物價趨勢的影響，所以我們對於基載能源是不是要重新做個檢討？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會參考委員的指教深刻檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們特別提到這些就是能源政策、能源配比的問題，剛剛看你的報告裡面特別講到核電、非核不是神主牌，既然不是的話，我們就必須要討論，不要有設定，不要有意識形態，每一個可能穩定我們供電的，都是我們的選項，都要進行討論，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是，核能這個命題剛才也報告很多，基本上還是在核廢料可以處理、安全無虞、所有的國人大家都同意，在這些前提之下，我們不排除任何新的科技。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以可以討論？"],["郭部長智輝：可以討論，這三個前提之下可以討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席之所以這樣問的意思就是說，雖然我們民生凍漲了，現在漲產業，但產業的話，你們可能分一般性和必需性產業去調整電價，但是我們看到半導體產業的用電量占了16.5%，在我們所有產業占比是最高的，或許我們可以研議，讓使用耗電量最高的部分可以負責更高的電價。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們目前的計價方式確實是這樣，用電最大的廠商，它們有一級的，我們是分級的，您剛剛所指教的大的用電商，它付的電費其實是比較高的。"],["呂委員玉玲：半導體有比較高嗎？有到14%、15%嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["王總經理耀庭：這一波電價沒有再做區別，但是上一次4月的調價是有。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以應該可以繼續研議，可以繼續這樣做，它既然是高耗電量，我們就請它多負擔一點，才不會對民生有更大的衝擊。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["郭部長智輝：其他的廠商，我們是根據深度節能來幫助這些比較中小的公司，但是它用電、耗電比較多的，我們透過深度節能的方法，大概可以看出績效，因為每個公司產業不一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是用電大戶。"],["郭部長智輝：我們看到大概可以幫它省7%的電費。"],["呂委員玉玲：可不可以朝這方面多找一些財源，台電才會轉虧為盈，這是非常重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們希望的是，第一個，部長去溝通天然氣是不是可以降價。第二個，用電大戶用電量高的話，可以調高它們的電價。再者，我們希望能夠讓所有綠電穩定，這個部分想辦法趕快達標，因為我們剛才看你們所有數字裡面，部長喜歡說科學數字，我們擔心的是不能達標。","接下來本席要講離岸風電，早上大家有提到，3-1、3-2目前還是國產，本席要提醒的，也是要跟部長講的，你3-1、3-2國產是因為我們很多產業鏈都已經簽了商業合約和產能合約，簽下去之後，如果你為了併聯發電來鬆綁國產，未來它們整個簽約下去，它們會一併使用國產的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想會。"],["呂委員玉玲：繼續使用國產的？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有使用國產的話，你們也會去處罰，是不是？經濟部會去處罰他們嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，政府所簽訂的合約內容是不能改變的。"],["呂委員玉玲：例如沃旭簽訂的產業鏈很多啊！也有基礎的、海底的，還有海底電纜各方面的，這些都簽約下去了，但是因為你開放國產之後，國產的會跟國外競爭，因為我們剛剛成熟，所有的國產產業鏈全部投資下去了，如果你一鬆綁，都從國外進來的話，整個整軍完成的國產風電都會潰散掉。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在的目的就是幫助國產化的廠商加深競爭力，讓它在3-3的時候，對國際廠牌具有競爭的條件，這樣它將來在國際風場才有競爭力。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席提醒你的是，當然它沒有競爭力，它們是草創來成軍，政府當然要輔導它，但是它投下去的成本一開始這麼龐大，不能一開始就把它丟到國際上去跟人家競爭，這樣它的競爭力沒辦法負荷。"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經承諾的事情，基於信賴保護，我們不會去毀掉這個合約。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它們有合約的，就繼續保障它們，繼續用國產的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：畢竟我們很多發電的資源，不管天然氣或煤炭，都國外進來的，現在我們遵照蔡英文總統的政策去投入資金，現在它們已經投入了，也整軍完成了，我們要繼續輔導它，畢竟這是國產的，我們要鞏固自己的發電能量，這才是永續的，好不好！"],["郭部長智輝：是的，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：請部長要特別注重這一點，因為國產的還是需要靠經濟部來扶植，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}