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我了解了就是說你的意思是說去年停下來不是說不做只是有治安跟系統的問題所以停下來所以今年繼續做所以從頭到尾就是要做這件事嘛名冊不用報只要留效被查一樣嘛就是要統計嘛一樣嘛就是要做這件事情只是不用報嘛所以是系統問題這個事情還要繼續做嘛那"},{"start":411.772,"end":421.601,"text":"那部長剛剛講說這個東西跟暫時無關對不對部長你知道全民防衛動員準備法這個法的立法精神是什麼你知道嗎他是為什麼要立這個法他具體核心內容你知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":425.523,"end":440.861,"text":"我講他主要就是也希望能夠提供在這個青少年對這個全民國防然後對地方整個當國家有一些這個災害或者天災或者一些特別絕對不是災害啦你看啦你看這個全民防衛動員法"},{"start":442.222,"end":464.984,"text":"他怎麼講的?第二條動員區分階段有準備階段跟實施階段實施階段是只要總統有發布緊急命令的時候或者暫時發生總統發布緊急命令所以就只打仗的時候要去處理啦然後第三條上面就講得很清楚嘛動員實施階段統合運用全民力量全民當然包括學生嘛要支援軍事作戰"},{"start":466.601,"end":475.233,"text":"所以絕對不是只有你講的防災這個法的精神就是戰事發生支援軍事作戰非常清楚"},{"start":476.954,"end":494.92,"text":"所以我在這邊跟拜託部長很多人為什麼沒填如果說陳如你講的就是要去防災或幹嘛後勤支援我相信很多學生也不見得不願意啊老師也不見得不願意發可是到目前為止沒有人講得清楚你講一套罰寫一套"},{"start":496.821,"end":506.803,"text":"去年講一套現在講一套然後資安還外洩那你在做這個過程當中誰又能夠對你產生信任感勒敢去填那個表格勒"},{"start":507.637,"end":534.899,"text":"各位老師全民防衛動員它是涉及到行政院各部會所以它涵掛的是整體那教育部處理的只有學校的這一塊那就是學校學校所以不好啊還是社區關懷還有避難引導的服務你仔細不好意思你仔細去看全民防衛動員準備法以及各個學校寫的計畫我並不是你講的這樣這個法是行政院各相關部會共同參與的學生今年服勤只是其中一小塊"},{"start":536.564,"end":540.896,"text":"沒有那這是你講的但是我們看白紙黑字法律跟計畫講的跟你不一樣啊"},{"start":541.909,"end":561.334,"text":"就是不一樣啊那一般如果大家出現那種意見上的差異就要看白紙黑字啊你自己看這個是高雄市我剛秀過的動員準備計畫啊他就講說如需親嚴協助勤務得向本市聯合應變指揮管制中心申請啊那聯合應變管制中心要幹什麼都可以啊沒有那是你講的啦那你看這個計畫上面等一下不要急你看計畫上面"},{"start":571.036,"end":578.794,"text":"下面說動員實施以學校為基地以務實行動展現全民防衛機制防災叫防衛嗎?"},{"start":581.581,"end":604.768,"text":"真的如果發生戰爭的時候一定會有災民需要收容那不是防衛嘛你是防衛災民喔你要把災民趕出去喔你是照顧災民不是防衛災民不要玩文字遊戲上面寫的防衛就是暫時防衛我現在就跟你講如果你想的跟寫的不一樣那你要叫他們修正嘛現在教育部的問題就講不清楚大家才會質疑嘛那你一直在這邊凹這個東西有意義嗎你講的跟寫的就不一樣啊"},{"start":605.848,"end":619.136,"text":"最後我要問一下部長昨天總質詢的時候那個我看到卓榮泰院長講說班班有鮮奶的政策因為實施非常困難所以如果學校有困難就不要他們繼續勉強他們喝鮮奶有這句話嗎我看到新聞是這樣寫的"},{"start":624.187,"end":650.375,"text":"我想讓學童有一個更好的蓋子跟這個蛋白質補充上次我們也有這個專題當時你聽我講因為我沒時間我講一講一下因為當時講了很多斑斑喝鮮奶的問題教育部當時有承諾要解決那最後就可以落實斑斑有鮮奶結果昨天卓榮泰院長講的是說如果無法落實的話我們就不勉強那些學校喝了這是什麼跟什麼啊"},{"start":651.494,"end":652.094,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:09:32+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:09:33.726667+08:00","text":"麻煩請部長，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T13:09:33.726667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:09:35.453333+08:00","text":"好，有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:09:35.453333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:09:37.180000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:09:37.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:09:37.701000+08:00","text":"部長好，我也想問一下校園服勤同意書。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:09:53.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:09:58.634000+08:00","text":"我今天問一下，為什麼特別在針對校園服勤同意書這個議題上，教育部的說法永遠都在改變？","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:09:58.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:05.698000+08:00","text":"前兩天傳出這樣的消息，但是對於到底有沒有發學生服勤同意書，教育部說「不要製造恐慌啊！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:06.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:06.859000+08:00","text":"這是假的！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:08.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:09.621000+08:00","text":"」為什麼第一時間要否認啊？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:10.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:12.242000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長並沒有否認啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:12.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:12.963000+08:00","text":"你說就是有這件事啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:14.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:14.784000+08:00","text":"那為什麼當時要否認呢？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:18.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:21.858000+08:00","text":"部長，這個新聞你沒看過喔？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:21.858000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:22.858000+08:00","text":"關於這個，我們在內部行政上有一些……我們來檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:21.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:34.326000+08:00","text":"部長，你們是教育部，教育部是全國最高教育單位，全國最高教育單位在記者求證時可以說「我再問一下」，但不能說謊啊！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:34.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:34.966000+08:00","text":"如果連教育部都說謊的話，誰還會相信教育部？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:41.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:45.172000+08:00","text":"我想我們並沒有說謊，是就……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:45.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:49.401000+08:00","text":"那你去告自由時報，自由時報說是假的、教育部說勿製造恐慌。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:50.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:52.180000+08:00","text":"你去告自由時報啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:52.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:52.600000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:53.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:10:57.121000+08:00","text":"沒有，跟委員報告，整起事件事實上是……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:10:58.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:02.423000+08:00","text":"你後來講的我都知道，我現在是問為什麼第一時間要否認嘛！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:02.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:03.543000+08:00","text":"是不是能夠請……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:03.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:03.963000+08:00","text":"沒關係啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:04.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:04.504000+08:00","text":"沒關係啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:04.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:05.144000+08:00","text":"這個只是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:06.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:10.406000+08:00","text":"當時被問的是我們是否發放「戰時動員意願調查」，但沒有啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:10.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:11.526000+08:00","text":"我們沒有發放……哇賽！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:11.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:12.566000+08:00","text":"你要玩文字遊戲。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:12.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:21.210000+08:00","text":"好，沒有關係，因為這不是我主要要問的問題，而是跟我等一下要問的都有關係，我是希望教育部在回應的時候要講得精準嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:22.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:22.731000+08:00","text":"要精準嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:22.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:23.031000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:23.031000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:24.452000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:24.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:30.256000+08:00","text":"我要先講一點，我覺得你們做這件事情時，過程非常粗糙，發生讓我無法想像的一件事！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:30.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:36.660000+08:00","text":"你們可知道你們在發服勤同意書的過程當中，很多資料都外洩了，哇！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:36.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:37.861000+08:00","text":"這真的是很嚴重的國安問題啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:38.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:50.707000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，這是高雄市政府114年度學校青年服勤動員準備計畫，這項計畫上面寫著「內閱」、「限閱」，也就是說只有內部的人可以看。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:11:51.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:11:59.295000+08:00","text":"而我以紅線畫出來的部分是「本執行計畫僅限動員業務幹部持用」，但我也不是業務幹部，為什麼我會有？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:00.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:02.298000+08:00","text":"你問我是不是駭客，或是我從哪裡偷來的？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:02.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:02.938000+08:00","text":"都不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:03.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:04.600000+08:00","text":"我是google到的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:06.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:14.357000+08:00","text":"你們提出一個動員準備計畫，說是內部的機密資料，結果人家隨便就可以google到，你是不怕對岸看光光喔？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:15.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:30.169000+08:00","text":"除了這個之外，我再給部長看，這是有些學校發放上去的服勤人數統計表：南港高中服勤人0、政大附中服勤0、國立臺灣戲曲學院服勤0。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:30.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:32.290000+08:00","text":"這是我偷來的嗎？不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:33.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:34.251000+08:00","text":"這也是從網路google到的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:35.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:39.132000+08:00","text":"所以你現在是要讓這些資料在網路上大公開喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:39.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:47.075000+08:00","text":"讓全世界都知道到底哪些學校服勤人數是多少、還有我們的計畫是怎麼樣？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:47.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:12:49.936000+08:00","text":"這已經不是資安問題了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:12:50.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:00.099000+08:00","text":"而是大家不小心到把這些不應該公開的資料都公開了，那你告訴我們，這些學生去參與你們的服勤計畫會放心嗎？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:00.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:03.260000+08:00","text":"連他的個資都可能會外洩欸！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:03.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:04.080000+08:00","text":"部長，你要不要去了解一下？可以。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:04.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:05.080000+08:00","text":"什麼「可以」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:05.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:06.080000+08:00","text":"就是說委員希望我去了解……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:06.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:07.080000+08:00","text":"這麼嚴重的問題我跟你講了，你卻說「可以」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:07.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:08.080000+08:00","text":"你聽到應該要比我震驚好不好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:08.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:09.080000+08:00","text":"如果我是你的話，我就會說「怎麼會發生這種事情！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:09.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:10.080000+08:00","text":"我震怒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:10.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:11.080000+08:00","text":"我要去查！」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:11.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:12.080000+08:00","text":"不，我剛剛講的可以是指……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:12.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:13.080000+08:00","text":"那麼嚴重、資料還外洩，結果我告訴部長之後，部長只說「可以」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:13.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:14.080000+08:00","text":"可以就是可以也不可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:14.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:15.080000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:06.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:08.556000+08:00","text":"部長，你的態度就讓我發現你們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:08.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:09.556000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說我們會去了解、去查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:08.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:08.656000+08:00","text":"可以啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:09.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:10.717000+08:00","text":"我知道，可以啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:11.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:11.237000+08:00","text":"可以啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:32.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:34.505000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們的態度就是這樣嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:34.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:36.386000+08:00","text":"難怪大家會很緊張嘛！好啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:36.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:42.330000+08:00","text":"部長，現在我們看到大部分學校的服勤人數都是0，為什麼？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:42.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:49.355000+08:00","text":"因為你們發文給教育局，教育局發文給學校，但學校中有些根本就沒有發下去嘛！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:49.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:49.995000+08:00","text":"直接填0。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:51.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:51.296000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:51.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:13:52.597000+08:00","text":"因為學校也不知道這個要幹嘛啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:13:53.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:02.342000+08:00","text":"一方面，發下去之後，如果是18歲以上學生，在學校直接可以填，18歲以下還要拿回去給家長填，萬一家長問這是什麼，學校也答不出來啊！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:03.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:03.703000+08:00","text":"為什麼答不出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:03.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:05.586000+08:00","text":"因為教育部的講法永遠都在改變啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:06.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:09.510000+08:00","text":"所以學校乾脆連發都不發，直接填0了啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:10.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:11.215000+08:00","text":"所以每個數字都是0。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:12.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:15.718000+08:00","text":"而在臺北市，我知道他們有統計出來，也只有一成的人有意願啦！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:16.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:18.920000+08:00","text":"那為什麼九成的人沒意願？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:18.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:20.381000+08:00","text":"是臺灣人不相信政府嗎？不是！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:21.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:24.263000+08:00","text":"是大家從頭到尾都搞不清楚這到底是什麼！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:24.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:27.345000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下網路上的網友怎麼講。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:27.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:32.628000+08:00","text":"你看有臺大的學生說「選對的人，走對的路，兒子當後勤，爸爸上戰場。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:34.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:39.173000+08:00","text":"」還有別的學校網友說這種表格發下去，全班都會寫「無」吧！","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:39.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:42.554000+08:00","text":"大家都搞不清楚這個是什麼。真的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:43.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:43.734000+08:00","text":"從頭到尾都講不清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:43.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:51.577000+08:00","text":"我就這項計畫的內容向你就教一下，因為早上我也看到部長您對媒體的回應，你說這跟打仗完全無關嘛！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:52.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:52.958000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:52.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:56.859000+08:00","text":"完全就是可能在打仗以後，大家做後勤支援吧！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:57.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:57.799000+08:00","text":"大概是這個意思嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:57.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:58.479000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:14:58.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:14:59.240000+08:00","text":"就是跟打仗完全無關。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:00.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:01.181000+08:00","text":"我先問你一個問題啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:02.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:13.609000+08:00","text":"去年其實也傳出類似的消息，就是要求學校統計，然後要登錄到「全民防衛動員資訊整合系統」裡面，這是去年的事喔！","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:14.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:21.775000+08:00","text":"當時教育部就說高級中等以上學校停止辦理，而且去年是根據民防法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:22.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:24.757000+08:00","text":"結果今年又繼續做，至於今年是根據什麼法？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:25.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:28.239000+08:00","text":"剛剛徐巧芯委員問你時，你說是根據全民防衛動員法，對不對？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:30.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:35.619000+08:00","text":"那我的第一個問題是為什麼去年是民防法，今年是全民防衛動員法？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:36.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:36.859000+08:00","text":"差別在哪？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:37.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:38.260000+08:00","text":"為什麼今年不根據民防法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:40.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:42.462000+08:00","text":"主要是全民防衛動員準備法。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:43.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:47.644000+08:00","text":"至於根據民防法，是因為民防組織動員也涉及整個人力後勤資源。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:48.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:53.127000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是去年停掉的原因是適法性不足，是不是？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:53.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:55.608000+08:00","text":"不應該用民防法，應該用全民防衛動員準備法？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:55.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:15:59.430000+08:00","text":"不是，去年停掉是因為有系統建置的問題、有資安考慮。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:15:59.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:00.510000+08:00","text":"所以沒有說不做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:01.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:04.071000+08:00","text":"在資安方面，系統填報的部分已經停止辦理了。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:04.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:10.754000+08:00","text":"好，我了解了，你的意思是去年停下來不是不做，只是因為有資安跟系統問題就停下來，今年繼續做。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:11.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:12.494000+08:00","text":"所以從頭到尾就是要做這件事嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:12.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:14.895000+08:00","text":"名冊不用報，只要留校備查。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:15.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:15.956000+08:00","text":"一樣嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:16.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:16.836000+08:00","text":"就是要統計嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:17.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:17.516000+08:00","text":"一樣嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:17.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:19.557000+08:00","text":"就是要做這件事情，只是不用報嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:20.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:20.717000+08:00","text":"所以是系統問題，但這件事還是要繼續做嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:24.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:26.815000+08:00","text":"部長剛剛講這件事跟戰時無關對不對？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:26.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:32.140000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道全民防衛動員準備法這部法的立法精神是什麼？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:32.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:32.700000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:32.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:33.041000+08:00","text":"為什麼要立這個法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:33.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:33.601000+08:00","text":"具體核心內容你知道是什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:37.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:49.757000+08:00","text":"我想主要也是希望提供青少年對全民國防、對地方，當國家有災害或者是天災、或者是特別的……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:50.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:50.738000+08:00","text":"絕對不是針對災害啦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:50.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:16:54.763000+08:00","text":"你看全民防衛動員法，它怎麼講的？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:16:55.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:07.835000+08:00","text":"根據第二條，動員區分階段有準備階段跟實施階段，實施階段是只要戰事發生，總統依憲法發布緊急命令，所以就是指打仗的時候要去處理啦！","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:08.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:11.479000+08:00","text":"然後是第三條，上面也講得很清楚嘛！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:12.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:15.303000+08:00","text":"「動員實施階段統合運用全民力量」，全民當然包括學生嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:15.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:26.552000+08:00","text":"而且要支援軍事作戰，所以絕對不只如你講的防災，這部法的精神就是在戰事發生時支援軍事作戰！","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:26.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:27.213000+08:00","text":"非常清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:29.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:32.736000+08:00","text":"我在這邊要拜託部長，為什麼很多人沒填？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:33.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:40.478000+08:00","text":"如果誠如你講的，就是參與防災等後勤支援，我相信很多學生也不見得不願意啊！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:41.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:42.719000+08:00","text":"老師也不見得不願意發啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:17:42.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:17:58.603000+08:00","text":"可是到目前為止，沒有人講得清楚，你講一套，法寫一套；去年講一套，現在講一套，然後資安還外洩，在這個過程中，又有誰能對你產生信任感、敢去填那個表格呢？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:00.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:08.064000+08:00","text":"全民防衛動員的業務是涉及行政院各部會，所以含括的是整體，教育部處理的只有學校這一塊……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:08.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:09.245000+08:00","text":"那學校這部分就處理不好啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:09.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:14.229000+08:00","text":"我們還是以社區關懷、避難引導、公共服務，確實有所區隔。","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:15.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:21.395000+08:00","text":"不好意思，你仔細去看全民防衛動員準備法以及各個學校寫的計畫，並不是你講的這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:21.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:26.899000+08:00","text":"我先說，那個法是由行政院各相關部會共同參與的，學生青年服勤只是其中一小塊。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:28.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:32.876000+08:00","text":"沒有，這是你講的，但是我們看到白紙黑字的法律跟計畫，講的跟你不一樣啊！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:33.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:34.449000+08:00","text":"就是不一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:35.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:38.410000+08:00","text":"如果大家出現意見上的差異，就是看白紙黑字啊！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:39.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:42.091000+08:00","text":"你自己看，這是我剛剛秀過的高雄市動員準備計畫啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:43.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:48.633000+08:00","text":"上面就講「如需青年協助勤務，得向本市聯合應變指揮管制中心申請」啊！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:49.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:50.913000+08:00","text":"那聯合應變指揮管制中心要幹什麼都可以欸！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:50.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:51.913000+08:00","text":"服勤的範圍就是避難引導、社區關懷、公共服務、行政支援。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:50.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:51.213000+08:00","text":"沒有，那是你講的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:51.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:51.573000+08:00","text":"你看計畫上面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:51.573000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:52.573000+08:00","text":"那是我們依法令所公布的計畫內容。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:51.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:18:52.874000+08:00","text":"等一下，不要急！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:18:53.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:09.171000+08:00","text":"你看計畫上說動員實施以學校為基地，以務實行動展現全民防衛機制啊！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:10.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:10.794000+08:00","text":"防災是防衛嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:13.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:16.242000+08:00","text":"在真的發生戰爭的時候，一定會有災民需要收容、需要關懷、需要協助。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:16.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:17.282000+08:00","text":"那不是防衛嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:17.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:18.362000+08:00","text":"難道你要防衛災民喔？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:18.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:19.923000+08:00","text":"你要把災民趕出去喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:20.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:21.643000+08:00","text":"是照顧災民，不是防衛災民欸！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:21.643000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:22.643000+08:00","text":"自救、救人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:22.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:26.145000+08:00","text":"不要玩文字遊戲，上面寫的防衛就是戰時防衛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:26.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:29.826000+08:00","text":"我現在是跟你講，如果你想的跟寫的不一樣，那你就要叫他們修正嘛！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:30.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:33.167000+08:00","text":"現在教育部的問題就在於講不清楚，大家才會質疑嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:33.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:35.747000+08:00","text":"你在這邊一直拗這個東西有意義嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:35.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:36.748000+08:00","text":"你講的跟寫的就不一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:37.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:50.635000+08:00","text":"最後，我要問一下部長，昨天總質詢的時候，卓榮泰院長說「班班有鮮奶」政策因為實施非常困難，如果學校有困難，就不要勉強他們喝鮮奶，有這句話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:50.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:19:51.116000+08:00","text":"我看到的新聞是這樣寫的。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:19:56.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:01.689000+08:00","text":"我想讓學童有更好的鈣質跟蛋白質補充是好事。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:03.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:05.610000+08:00","text":"上次我們也排這個專題……我們……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:05.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:07.210000+08:00","text":"你聽我講，因為沒時間了，我要講一下。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:08.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:14.172000+08:00","text":"當時講了很多班班喝鮮奶的問題，教育部也承諾要解決，最後就可以落實班班有鮮奶。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:14.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:19.354000+08:00","text":"結果昨天卓榮泰院長講的是如果無法落實的話，就不勉強那些學校喝了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:20.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:22.355000+08:00","text":"這是什麼跟什麼啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:22.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:25.140714+08:00","text":"這是什麼跟什麼啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:25.440714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:28.012143+08:00","text":"你們要去解決問題嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:28.312143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:32.026429+08:00","text":"院長的意思就是我們會做滾動……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:32.326429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:38.326429+08:00","text":"「我們的政策落實很困難，對於學校，我們就不勉強你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:38.626429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:42.340714+08:00","text":"」學校不是不想喝，學校是喝不到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:42.640714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:53.212143+08:00","text":"所以還是請部長秉持班班有鮮奶的精神，讓班班都有鮮奶，不要變成兩人喝一瓶鮮奶。謝謝。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:53.512143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:55.512143+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T13:20:55.812143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:20:59.812143+08:00","text":"部長請回，謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-16T13:21:00.112143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-16T13:21:02.969286+08:00","text":"再來請羅智強委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:09:32 - 13:20:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","gazette":{"lineno":1251,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時9分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，我也想問一下校園服勤同意書。我今天問一下，為什麼特別在針對校園服勤同意書這個議題上，教育部的說法永遠都在改變？前兩天傳出這樣的消息，但是對於到底有沒有發學生服勤同意書，教育部說「不要製造恐慌啊！這是假的！」為什麼第一時間要否認啊？剛剛部長並沒有否認啊！你說就是有這件事啊！那為什麼當時要否認呢？部長，這個新聞你沒看過喔？"],["鄭部長英耀：關於這個，我們在內部行政上有一些……我們來檢討。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你們是教育部，教育部是全國最高教育單位，全國最高教育單位在記者求證時可以說「我再問一下」，但不能說謊啊！如果連教育部都說謊的話，誰還會相信教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們並沒有說謊，是就……"],["葉委員元之：那你去告自由時報，自由時報說是假的、教育部說勿製造恐慌。你去告自由時報啦！好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，跟委員報告，整起事件事實上是……"],["葉委員元之：你後來講的我都知道，我現在是問為什麼第一時間要否認嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是能夠請……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係啦！沒關係啦！這個只是……"],["吳司長林輝：當時被問的是我們是否發放「戰時動員意願調查」，但沒有啊！我們沒有發放……"],["葉委員元之：哇賽！你要玩文字遊戲。好，沒有關係，因為這不是我主要要問的問題，而是跟我等一下要問的都有關係，我是希望教育部在回應的時候要講得精準嘛！要精準嘛！好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["葉委員元之：我要先講一點，我覺得你們做這件事情時，過程非常粗糙，發生讓我無法想像的一件事！你們可知道你們在發服勤同意書的過程當中，很多資料都外洩了，哇！這真的是很嚴重的國安問題啊！我們來看一下，這是高雄市政府114年度學校青年服勤動員準備計畫，這項計畫上面寫著「內閱」、「限閱」，也就是說只有內部的人可以看。而我以紅線畫出來的部分是「本執行計畫僅限動員業務幹部持用」，但我也不是業務幹部，為什麼我會有？你問我是不是駭客，或是我從哪裡偷來的？都不是！我是google到的！你們提出一個動員準備計畫，說是內部的機密資料，結果人家隨便就可以google到，你是不怕對岸看光光喔？","除了這個之外，我再給部長看，這是有些學校發放上去的服勤人數統計表：南港高中服勤人0、政大附中服勤0、國立臺灣戲曲學院服勤0。這是我偷來的嗎？不是！這也是從網路google到的。所以你現在是要讓這些資料在網路上大公開喔？讓全世界都知道到底哪些學校服勤人數是多少、還有我們的計畫是怎麼樣？這已經不是資安問題了啦！而是大家不小心到把這些不應該公開的資料都公開了，那你告訴我們，這些學生去參與你們的服勤計畫會放心嗎？連他的個資都可能會外洩欸！部長，你要不要去了解一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["葉委員元之：什麼「可以」？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是說委員希望我去了解……"],["葉委員元之：這麼嚴重的問題我跟你講了，你卻說「可以」？你聽到應該要比我震驚好不好！如果我是你的話，我就會說「怎麼會發生這種事情！我震怒！我要去查！」。"],["鄭部長英耀：不，我剛剛講的可以是指……"],["葉委員元之：那麼嚴重、資料還外洩，結果我告訴部長之後，部長只說「可以」？可以就是可以也不可以。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：好啦！部長，你的態度就讓我發現你們……"],["鄭部長英耀：我的意思是說我們會去了解、去查。"],["葉委員元之：可以啦！我知道，可以啦！可以啦！我覺得你們的態度就是這樣嘛！難怪大家會很緊張嘛！","好啦！部長，現在我們看到大部分學校的服勤人數都是0，為什麼？因為你們發文給教育局，教育局發文給學校，但學校中有些根本就沒有發下去嘛！直接填0。為什麼？因為學校也不知道這個要幹嘛啊！一方面，發下去之後，如果是18歲以上學生，在學校直接可以填，18歲以下還要拿回去給家長填，萬一家長問這是什麼，學校也答不出來啊！為什麼答不出來？因為教育部的講法永遠都在改變啊！所以學校乾脆連發都不發，直接填0了啦！所以每個數字都是0。而在臺北市，我知道他們有統計出來，也只有一成的人有意願啦！那為什麼九成的人沒意願？是臺灣人不相信政府嗎？不是！是大家從頭到尾都搞不清楚這到底是什麼！我們來看一下網路上的網友怎麼講。你看有臺大的學生說「選對的人，走對的路，兒子當後勤，爸爸上戰場。」還有別的學校網友說這種表格發下去，全班都會寫「無」吧！大家都搞不清楚這個是什麼。真的！從頭到尾都講不清楚。","我就這項計畫的內容向你就教一下，因為早上我也看到部長您對媒體的回應，你說這跟打仗完全無關嘛！對不對？完全就是可能在打仗以後，大家做後勤支援吧！大概是這個意思嘛！對不對？就是跟打仗完全無關。我先問你一個問題啦！去年其實也傳出類似的消息，就是要求學校統計，然後要登錄到「全民防衛動員資訊整合系統」裡面，這是去年的事喔！當時教育部就說高級中等以上學校停止辦理，而且去年是根據民防法。結果今年又繼續做，至於今年是根據什麼法？剛剛徐巧芯委員問你時，你說是根據全民防衛動員法，對不對？那我的第一個問題是為什麼去年是民防法，今年是全民防衛動員法？差別在哪？為什麼今年不根據民防法？"],["吳司長林輝：主要是全民防衛動員準備法。至於根據民防法，是因為民防組織動員也涉及整個人力後勤資源。"],["葉委員元之：所以你的意思是去年停掉的原因是適法性不足，是不是？不應該用民防法，應該用全民防衛動員準備法？"],["吳司長林輝：不是，去年停掉是因為有系統建置的問題、有資安考慮。"],["葉委員元之：所以沒有說不做？"],["吳司長林輝：在資安方面，系統填報的部分已經停止辦理了。"],["葉委員元之：好，我了解了，你的意思是去年停下來不是不做，只是因為有資安跟系統問題就停下來，今年繼續做。所以從頭到尾就是要做這件事嘛！"],["吳司長林輝：名冊不用報，只要留校備查。"],["葉委員元之：一樣嘛！就是要統計嘛！一樣嘛！就是要做這件事情，只是不用報嘛！所以是系統問題，但這件事還是要繼續做嘛！","部長剛剛講這件事跟戰時無關對不對？部長，你知道全民防衛動員準備法這部法的立法精神是什麼？你知道嗎？為什麼要立這個法？具體核心內容你知道是什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想主要也是希望提供青少年對全民國防、對地方，當國家有災害或者是天災、或者是特別的……"],["葉委員元之：絕對不是針對災害啦！你看全民防衛動員法，它怎麼講的？根據第二條，動員區分階段有準備階段跟實施階段，實施階段是只要戰事發生，總統依憲法發布緊急命令，所以就是指打仗的時候要去處理啦！然後是第三條，上面也講得很清楚嘛！「動員實施階段統合運用全民力量」，全民當然包括學生嘛！而且要支援軍事作戰，所以絕對不只如你講的防災，這部法的精神就是在戰事發生時支援軍事作戰！非常清楚。","我在這邊要拜託部長，為什麼很多人沒填？如果誠如你講的，就是參與防災等後勤支援，我相信很多學生也不見得不願意啊！老師也不見得不願意發啊！可是到目前為止，沒有人講得清楚，你講一套，法寫一套；去年講一套，現在講一套，然後資安還外洩，在這個過程中，又有誰能對你產生信任感、敢去填那個表格呢？"],["吳司長林輝：全民防衛動員的業務是涉及行政院各部會，所以含括的是整體，教育部處理的只有學校這一塊……"],["葉委員元之：那學校這部分就處理不好啊！"],["吳司長林輝：我們還是以社區關懷、避難引導、公共服務，確實有所區隔。"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，你仔細去看全民防衛動員準備法以及各個學校寫的計畫，並不是你講的這樣。"],["吳司長林輝：我先說，那個法是由行政院各相關部會共同參與的，學生青年服勤只是其中一小塊。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這是你講的，但是我們看到白紙黑字的法律跟計畫，講的跟你不一樣啊！就是不一樣啊！如果大家出現意見上的差異，就是看白紙黑字啊！你自己看，這是我剛剛秀過的高雄市動員準備計畫啊！上面就講「如需青年協助勤務，得向本市聯合應變指揮管制中心申請」啊！那聯合應變指揮管制中心要幹什麼都可以欸！"],["吳司長林輝：服勤的範圍就是避難引導、社區關懷、公共服務、行政支援。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，那是你講的啦！你看計畫上面……"],["吳司長林輝：那是我們依法令所公布的計畫內容。"],["葉委員元之：等一下，不要急！你看計畫上說動員實施以學校為基地，以務實行動展現全民防衛機制啊！防災是防衛嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：在真的發生戰爭的時候，一定會有災民需要收容、需要關懷、需要協助。"],["葉委員元之：那不是防衛嘛！難道你要防衛災民喔？你要把災民趕出去喔？是照顧災民，不是防衛災民欸！"],["吳司長林輝：自救、救人……"],["葉委員元之：不要玩文字遊戲，上面寫的防衛就是戰時防衛！我現在是跟你講，如果你想的跟寫的不一樣，那你就要叫他們修正嘛！現在教育部的問題就在於講不清楚，大家才會質疑嘛！你在這邊一直拗這個東西有意義嗎？你講的跟寫的就不一樣啊！","最後，我要問一下部長，昨天總質詢的時候，卓榮泰院長說「班班有鮮奶」政策因為實施非常困難，如果學校有困難，就不要勉強他們喝鮮奶，有這句話嗎？我看到的新聞是這樣寫的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想讓學童有更好的鈣質跟蛋白質補充是好事。"],["葉委員元之：上次我們也排這個專題……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們……"],["葉委員元之：你聽我講，因為沒時間了，我要講一下。當時講了很多班班喝鮮奶的問題，教育部也承諾要解決，最後就可以落實班班有鮮奶。結果昨天卓榮泰院長講的是如果無法落實的話，就不勉強那些學校喝了！這是什麼跟什麼啊！這是什麼跟什麼啊！你們要去解決問題嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：院長的意思就是我們會做滾動……"],["葉委員元之：「我們的政策落實很困難，對於學校，我們就不勉強你。」學校不是不想喝，學校是喝不到。所以還是請部長秉持班班有鮮奶的精神，讓班班都有鮮奶，不要變成兩人喝一瓶鮮奶。謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指導。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","再來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}