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有請經濟部郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":19.969,"end":40.274,"text":"委員好部長好上次院會總質詢的時候我請教我們的行政院院長卓榮泰卓院長有關於在電力、能源、發電、配比賴清德政府的路徑那個時候你應該是因公出國沒有在院會裡但是次長來了"},{"start":42.015,"end":62.932,"text":"國發處會主委也在旁邊上個會期在經濟組總質詢的時候我提出這個問題我必須要先跟部長講對整個再生能源發展的路徑一片空白我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝因為那一天包括院長以及兩個部會最重要的主管在質詢台上完全沒有辦法"},{"start":64.033,"end":91.078,"text":"回答我所提出來的問題那當然在議會的時候總執行沒有辦法回答問題我一定給行政部門時間回去好好的思考回去好好的規劃因為能源轉型電力配比不能只有口號如果只有口號的話那接下來接下來大家會非常的擔心政府不是這樣子幹的"},{"start":92.758,"end":115.399,"text":"我想把這個基本的前提先跟部長說明完了以後我們來先確認一件事嘛第一個事情之前蔡英文總統2025的時候 再生能源佔比要達到20%那基本上是確定跳票了啦確定跳票了那所以我們的賴清德總統提出了一個新的目標到2026年的時候要實現20%那政府"},{"start":120.043,"end":122.624,"text":"按照經濟部行政院會後提供給我的資料來我們先來看第一段"},{"start":144.738,"end":157.422,"text":"第一段是到2026年的11月就賴清德總統所講的2026年的11月從現在2024年到2026年的11月要再增加9.5%過去8年增加了4.9%接下來的兩年三個月要再增加9.5%部長你覺得這個實際不實際"},{"start":171.325,"end":196.956,"text":"我報告這個委員我想這個不是線性的關係這個我們在原本來2025年就可以達成的目標因為一些材料的關係因為戰爭的關係所以他必須要在延11個月到2026年的11月我想以我們現在所了解的進度這個目標應該是可以達成的"},{"start":197.437,"end":204.073,"text":"這目標可以達成剛剛部長講得很好這不是線性的關係嘛那如果不是線性的關係的話部長"},{"start":207.425,"end":231.741,"text":"當過企業的董事長是針對這整個進度啊你可以回去看一下些如果不是線性的關係看可不可以寫個函數啊寫個函數出來讓大家了解我們政府怎麼規劃我為什麼說這樣講如果不是線性的關係來我們再接下來往後看結果到了2028年的時候在一年一個月只增加1.3%"},{"start":234.073,"end":259.811,"text":"那很怪囉兩年三個月火速飛快可以增加9.5%在一年一個月只可以增加1.3%剛剛部長講得很好啊這不是線性的關係啊你要函數解釋也可以啊但我沒有辦法理解的是這個到底是一個什麼樣子的進度規劃你看了不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":261.79,"end":289.041,"text":"這是裝置量的問題我們的政府我們的政府在做這些目標設定的時候當然啦齁今天你在這邊所講的話在國會都會留下記錄嗎當然時間到了以後有兌現沒有兌現到時候都可以檢證只不過說在我國比較遺憾的也是很多企業界在詬病的我們的政府喊口號講計畫是很會"},{"start":291.602,"end":315.88,"text":"到時候在檢驗的時候啊 通常是什麼 不堪檢驗 不堪檢驗因為呢 你到2028年 你到2028年的時候再增加1.3到了2030年的時候 突然又要增加8.7部長 你真的有看過 這個目標寫出來的時候 他們有給你詳細的內容嗎還是口號隨便喊一喊"},{"start":317.062,"end":342.87,"text":"根據這個委員剛才的這個數字啊我在這個部裡面我們在討論的時候是有這些數字我也跟委員一樣懷疑達成率會多少但是以目前他們所掌握的這個數字確實是可以履約的好部長你顯然看到了一些我沒有看到的數字嗎他們怎麼跟你報告的"},{"start":344.062,"end":348.4,"text":"怎麼樣透過這種非常詭異的速度"},{"start":349.229,"end":350.009,"text":"各位委員他是因為風場不一樣"},{"start":377.879,"end":403.468,"text":"然後那個風機的這個設置的這個速度跟時間不一樣沒有關係啦部長你來自企業界我相信企業界的人士喜歡看實際的數字嘛喜歡看data嘛具體要怎麼落實嘛不是數字隨便填一填嘛所以我才說顯然你有看到一些基礎資料是我們其他委員都沒看到的是不是可以提供給大家"},{"start":405.189,"end":425.7,"text":"有困難嗎?可以 沒困難可以嘛 那我們再講比較具體的就好 因為時間到我只問最後一個問題我再講比較具體的是剛剛那個是overall的數字嘛那我們現在就要切細的看喔包括太陽光電包括風力你們的占比到底要怎麼樣調整怎麼樣變化"},{"start":428.061,"end":440.449,"text":"按照目前經濟部所交給我的是說就太陽光電的部分你們到2026年的時候會增加到9.4%到2028年的時候會增加到10%現在是多少部長你知道嗎5.2現在是5.2嘛所以到2026年11月的時候可以到9.4你看到的數字也有信心"},{"start":458.342,"end":485.579,"text":"報告這個這個太陽能是比較快的大概兩年啊就可以達到預定的目標阿其他的風力阿或者是其他的燃煤阿或者是燃氣的都要六年才有辦法按照您剛所講太陽能比較快嘛所以從現在開始算大概兩年可以增加4%多嘛對嘛然後到2028年的時候只能增加0.6%"},{"start":487.977,"end":511.879,"text":"這個部長您看一下你們經濟部給我的數字這沒有錯因為這個還是要看場域啦阿我們是可以同意他沒有關係一樣會後把你看的data跟大家講因為這個函數阿真的太奇怪了不是他沒有函數關係啦沒有關係嘛你基本上面的基礎資料提供給大家嘛我看看你們到底是怎麼做計畫的嘛"},{"start":512.499,"end":531.206,"text":"接下來要達成你們的目標,你們太陽光電還要增加多少GW,地面型的?增加5GW你們上來齁,要協助部長齁,基礎資料自己要掌握好啦"},{"start":532.299,"end":543.562,"text":"這個都是你們經濟部給的數字啦從2016年到現在2024年6月5GW未來還要再增加多少要達到你們的目標到2026年要6.8GW接下來6.8GW需要多少土地"},{"start":556.344,"end":580.58,"text":"6.8GW如果扣掉地面型跟屋頂型的話沒有沒有6.8全部都是地面型的啦如果6.8GW大概就叫6千公頃的土地怎麼6.8GW是只有純地面型的你都不是那麼清楚喔清楚6.8GW需要幾公頃約6千公頃的土地盤點好了嗎這部分還要跨部會的協商所以現在還沒有盤點好嗎是嗎請部長"},{"start":586.022,"end":608.99,"text":"報告委員剛部長講裝置容量嘛那你要裝這個東西我也是跟你講地面型的嘛就要土地嘛但是站在你旁邊那位先生說還要跨部會協商嘛所以你看到的基礎資料您所講的裝置容量現在連地在哪裡都還沒有盤點我有說錯嗎報告委員 這個地的部分我們跟農委會都有在談"},{"start":611.471,"end":632.805,"text":"謝謝黃委員時間超過很多農業部的部分事實上是有您剛才說的沒有東西剛剛主席主席已經站起來提醒我時間到了最後一樣會後請您把你們盤點好的地可以按照這樣子的計畫進行把那個具體的計畫內容提供給我這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:18:28 - 13:29:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時18分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，上次院會總質詢的時候，我請教行政院卓榮泰院長有關於電力、能源、發電配比賴清德政府的路徑，那時候你應該是因公出國，沒有在院會裡，但是次長來了，國發會主委也在旁邊。上個會期在經濟組總質詢的時候，我提出這個問題，我必須要先跟部長講，對整個再生能源發展的路徑一片空白，我非常地驚訝，因為那天包括院長以及兩個部會最重要的主管在質詢臺上完全沒有辦法回答我所提出來的問題。當然，在院會的時候，總質詢沒有辦法回答問題，我一定給行政部門時間回去好好思考、回去好好規劃，因為能源轉型、電力配比不能只有口號，如果只有口號的話，接下來大家會非常的擔心，政府不是這樣子幹的。","把這個基本的前提先跟部長說明，完了以後，我們先來確認一件事，第一個事情，之前蔡英文總統宣示2025年再生能源占比要達到20%，基本上是確定跳票了，確定跳票了，所以我們的賴清德總統提出了一個新的目標，到2026年的時候要實現20%。政府畫了這樣的一個目標，喊了這樣的一個口號，我就看到底這個路徑是怎麼樣。","請部長先仔細看，我們從2016年到2024年，過去8年再生能源增加了4.9%。按照經濟部、行政院會後提供給我的資料，我們先來看第一段，第一段是到2026年的11月，就賴清德總統所講的2026年的11月，從現在2024年到2026年的11月要再增加9.5%。過去8年增加了4.9%，接下來的2年3個月要再增加9.5%，部長，你覺得這個實際不實際？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個不是線性的關係啦！我們本來在2025年就可以達成目標，因為一些材料的關係、因為戰爭的關係，所以必須要再延11個月，到2026年的11月，我想以我們現在所了解的進度，這個目標應該是可以達成的。"],["黃委員國昌：這個目標可以達成，剛剛部長講得很好，這不是線性的關係嘛，如果不是線性的關係的話，部長當過企業的董事長……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：針對這整個進度，你可以回去看一下，如果不是線性的關係，看可不可以寫個函數出來，讓大家了解我們政府怎麼規劃的。我為什麼這樣講？如果不是線性的關係，我們再接下來往後看，結果到了2028年的時候，再1年1個月只增加1.3%，那很怪喔！2年3個月火速、飛快地可以增加9.5%，再1年1個月只可以增加1.3%。剛剛部長講得很好，這不是線性的關係，你要用函數解釋也可以，但我沒有辦法理解的是，這個到底是一個什麼樣子的進度規劃？你看了不會覺得很奇怪嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這是裝置量的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：我們的政府在做這些目標設定的時候……當然，今天你在這邊所講的話，在國會都會留下紀錄。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：時間到了以後，有兌現、沒有兌現，到時候都可以檢證。只不過在我國比較遺憾的，也是很多企業界在詬病的，我們的政府喊口號、講計畫是很會，到時候檢驗的時候通常是什麼？不堪檢驗啊！不堪檢驗！因為你到2028年的時候再增加1.3%，到了2030年的時候突然又要增加8.7%。部長，你真的有看過這個目標寫出來的時候他們給你的詳細內容嗎？還是口號隨便喊一喊？"],["郭部長智輝：根據委員剛才的數字，在部裡面我們在討論的時候是有這些數字，我也跟委員一樣懷疑達成率會多少，但是以目前他們所掌握的數字，確實是可以履約的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，部長，你顯然看到了一些我沒有看到的數字，他們怎麼跟你報告的、怎麼樣透過這一種非常詭異的速度，接下來的2年3個月要增加9.5%，然後再往後的1年1個月突然慢下來了，只增加1.3%，接下來2年又加速了，又到8.7%，這個全部都是你們給我的數字。顯然有一些基礎的判斷資料可能部長有掌握了那麼複雜的函數基礎資料，但我沒掌握，會後提供給我，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，它是因為風場不一樣，然後那個風機設置的速度跟時間不一樣，所以造成……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，部長你來自企業界，我相信企業界的人士喜歡看實際的數字嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：喜歡看data嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：具體要怎麼落實嘛，不是數字隨便填一填嘛，所以我才說顯然你有看到一些基礎資料是我們其他委員都沒看到的，是不是可以提供給大家？有困難嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以，沒困難。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛。我們再講比較具體的就好，因為時間到，我只問最後一個問題。我再講比較具體的是，剛剛那個是overall的數字，我們現在就要切細地看，包括太陽光電、包括風力的占比到底要怎麼樣調整、怎麼樣變化？按照目前經濟部交給我的是，就太陽光電的部分，到2026年的時候會增加到9.4%，到2028年的時候會增加到10%。現在是多少，部長你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：5.2。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是5.2，所以到2026年11月的時候可以到9.4，你看這數字也有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，太陽能是比較快的，大概2年就可以達到預定的目標，其他的風力、燃煤或者是燃氣，都要6年才有辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：按照您剛剛所講，太陽能比較快嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：所以從現在開始算，大概兩年可以增加4%多嘛，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：然後到2028年的時候只能增加0.6%。"],["郭部長智輝：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，您看一下你們經濟部給我的數字。"],["郭部長智輝：這沒有錯，因為這個還是要看場域，我們是可以同意它來設置……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，一樣，會後把你看的data跟大家講，因為這個函數真的太奇怪了！"],["郭部長智輝：它沒有函數關係啦。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛，你基本上面的基礎資料提供給大家嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我看看你們到底是怎麼做計畫的嘛。接下來要達成你們的目標，太陽光電還要增加多少GW，地面型的？"],["郭部長智輝：增加5GW。"],["黃委員國昌：你們幕僚上來要協助部長，基礎資料自己要掌握好，這個都是你們經濟部給的數字。從2016年到現在2024年6月5GW，未來還要再增加多少，才能達到你們的目標到2026年要6.8GW？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，剛剛我講的5GW就是到2025年。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來6.8GW需要多少土地？"],["游署長振偉：6.8GW如果扣掉地面型跟屋頂型的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，6.8全部都是地面型的啦。"],["游署長振偉：如果6.8GW大概就要6,000公頃的土地。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼6.8GW只有純地面型的，你都不是那麼清楚喔。"],["游署長振偉：清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：6.8GW需要幾公頃？"],["郭部長智輝：6,000。"],["游署長振偉：約6,000公頃的土地。"],["黃委員國昌：盤點好了嗎？"],["游署長振偉：這部分還要跨部會的協商。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在還沒有盤點好嘛，是嗎？請部長……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛部長講裝置容量嘛，你要裝這個東西，我也是跟你講地面型的，就要土地，但是站在你旁邊那位先生說還要跨部會協商，所以你看到的基礎資料、你所講的裝置容量，現在連地在哪裡都還沒有盤點好，我有說錯嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個地的部分我們跟農委會都有在談……"],["黃委員國昌：跟農業部嘛。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：謝謝黃委員，時間超過很多……"],["郭部長智輝：農業部的部分事實上有您剛才說的6,000公頃的地。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，主席已經站起來提醒我時間到了。最後一樣，會後請您就你們盤點好的地，可以按照這樣子的計畫進行，把那個具體的計畫內容提供給我，這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}