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部長好 部長好 辛苦了 下午2點還這麼多委員在這邊質詢啊後面還有很多人繼續問了 我想當然主因當然這跟部長昨天的發言有很大的關係部長雖然說你剛剛已經跟委員們致歉了 但是我想繼續了解一下這個天馬行空的這個想法從何而來因為我想這個大家都看到新聞了 6月17號 雲報能源宣布他們在菲律賓來插集 採取太陽能"},{"start":47.114,"end":47.295,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":62.919,"end":78.173,"text":"這兩件事情完全是獨立事件我也不清楚雲報公司到菲律賓去投資的這個事情我這個到菲律賓這個案件其實是我們在這個斯坂明夫他在創建這個所謂的"},{"start":82.916,"end":108.604,"text":"這個我看到你新聞上有回應你是在這個智庫上的這個各國大使給你建議的嘛這個他們啊這因為這個美國的大使日本的大使都在談這個所謂民主聯盟然後大家對未來的這個世界上面大家應該要互通這個在共同可以大家友好的部分所以才談到能源的部分那這個能源我個人認為因為"},{"start":111.027,"end":140.211,"text":"菲律賓、美國、日本在今年的4月他們的領導人共同簽了一個旅送經濟計畫這個剛剛尚偉回應過沒關係這我知道只是好奇啦如果這第一個點是說你不知道這事情但是你不知道也不應該啦坦白說如果我國廠商出去投資你沒有掌握這件事情本身也是有點奇怪我可以提醒一下部長了再來部長昨天講了這個去日本去菲律賓買這個綠電送回台灣價格比本土便宜"},{"start":140.771,"end":142.112,"text":"因為我們台灣土地是有限的然後我們的海岸也是有限的"},{"start":164.548,"end":182.348,"text":"但是綠能的業者他有經濟規模當他的這個經濟規模達到的時候他可以充分的降低他的成本好 謝謝部長提到了這就是企業經營的角度畢竟你從企業界來啦如果今天我們真的去國外買綠電比較便宜的話那我們國內幹嘛還要繼續發展這件事情呢"},{"start":183.068,"end":207.483,"text":"國內還是要發展這個綠電啊那成本高啊 如果從企業經營角度你今天從企業界來理論上你也知道說我們現在綠電成本可能相對比國外高嘛那既然你都覺得說去國外買的價格遠低於本土綠電那不是應該鼓勵我們國內的廠商去國外買綠電嗎這個 這有兩個不同的意義啦如果在國外可以幫助他降低成本"},{"start":208.403,"end":224.335,"text":"事實上他可以在國外去發揮,國內的產業可以到國外去發揮,這個是非常重要的成本觀念。今天提到這個日本或菲律賓的目的,就是因為你說去國外買這個綠電,對本土廠商來講比較便宜是嗎?"},{"start":227.125,"end":227.845,"text":"臺灣的市場太小了啦"},{"start":256.141,"end":276.754,"text":"我們不能夠讓台灣的廠商只看台灣這麼小的市場對不起時間不夠那我繼續講這個部長提到說這個2000億撥補給你2000億你可以讓大家未來可能未來兩年不漲電價這是你的承諾如果2000億之後漲了你準備下台這是你講的嗎對好那部長我們試算一個表格過去這些年過去10年來"},{"start":278.275,"end":298.944,"text":"臺電以前有賺錢所以有所謂的電價穩定準備金以前都用電價穩定準備金來撥補那從112年之後因為這個電價穩定準備金花完了臺電自己沒有錢了所以現在用政府預算來撥補所以陸陸續續一直在撥補來包含政府之前增至2500億那你現在提到還要再2000億部長我們看一張圖我們試算一下2000億什麼概念兩年"},{"start":299.804,"end":323.435,"text":"如果台灣2300萬人每人負擔就是8696元兩年電價有12期電費平均一個人要付725元以四口之家他等於我什麼我就像我很省電我是民生用電啊我在家用電啊但是你四口之家等於莫名其妙如果真的政府今天立法院同意你撥補2000億給台電我等於從每個人口袋裡面每個每一期電費掏出2900元電費出來"},{"start":326.627,"end":331.628,"text":"政府是股東要拿2000出來幫台電去補這個2000億的缺口那你要怎麼樣做到後續這兩年能夠確定成本不會再上漲那你才能夠把盈餘補回來"},{"start":356.095,"end":385.12,"text":"因為這個兩千億是在補台電的財務啦這兩千億的錢不就是人民納稅錢嗎又不是你拿出來的錢因為為什麼需要這個錢是因為這個過去三年我們給民生的這個電價基本上是都虧錢的每一度電要虧一塊錢以上部長你這樣講的話意思就是你等於是變相用漲電價的方式補回來嘛那你今天使用者付費如果使用者付費的觀念要建立起來的話"},{"start":385.64,"end":388.722,"text":"我補貼的都是小的用戶啊小的商家啊、有住家啊這一些就是比較弱勢的啊"},{"start":408.627,"end":432.561,"text":"所以委員您的指教就是說使用者付費當然第一個使用者付費 第二個如果你真的堅持要這2000億你要提出 你要今天等於你在辦公室增資的意思嘛你要發行新股嘛 2000億要去填補過去的虧損嘛"},{"start":433.542,"end":458.744,"text":"那兩千億給你之後你總是要提出一個財務規劃我們提出就是我們會努力來改善這個整個財務規的這個結構成本結構那你要算出來你要提供報告讓民眾讓立法院知道說你的兩千億未來兩年你要怎麼樣去把這個缺口補起來然後保證電力就會上漲好不好報告委員那個是補貼不是增資所以我跟您如果是股東的話我也鄭重在這裡跟你報告"},{"start":459.565,"end":484.645,"text":"就是說我們會去努力這個補貼了他這個財務的這個過去的損失啊這個損失是因為去照顧我們的中小家庭好沒關係因為主席站起來代表時間到了部長你這個2000億補進去過去的缺口補起來未來兩年你的這個臺電公司或整個台灣的能源結構的成本你應該算出來讓我們知道2000億補了可能"},{"start":485.58,"end":512.138,"text":"你承諾兩年不漲電價那原理是什麼?原因是什麼?我覺得你要提出報告可以嗎?我認為我努力然後得到的這個結果會讓這個電價審議委員讓他來判斷不漲價部長那你有沒有辦法提出這個試算報告?提出財務規劃?要不然你怎麼讓我們同意?我要怎麼同意你這兩件事情撥過去?我們可以來努力來做這個這部分跟委員報告好部長謝謝謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:59:35 - 14:08:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1329,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（13時59分）謝謝主席，我們一樣請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好，部長辛苦了，下午兩點還這麼多委員在這邊質詢，後面還有很多人繼續問，我想當然跟部長昨天的發言有很大的關係。部長，雖然你剛剛已經跟委員們致歉，但是我想了解一下這個天馬行空的想法從何而來。大家都看到新聞，6月17號雲豹能源宣布他們要在菲律賓插旗參與太陽能，剛好我們的新政府現在又提到，我們可以去菲律賓採購綠電，這中間有沒有關連性？部長，在這個發想過程中你有看到這個新聞嗎？還是這兩件事是獨立事件，沒有關係？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這兩件事情完全是獨立事件，我也不清楚雲豹公司到菲律賓投資的事情。我說到菲律賓這件事其實是我們看到矢板明夫在創建所謂的印太……"],["黃委員健豪：有，我看到新聞你回應了，是在出席智庫活動時各國大使給你建議的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為美國的大使、日本的大使都在談民主聯盟，在未來的世界大家應該要互通，在共同友好的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：沒有關係，這個我了解啦。"],["郭部長智輝：所以才談到能源的部分，因為菲律賓、美國、日本的領導人在今年4月共同簽了一個呂宋經濟計畫。"],["黃委員健豪：這個你上午回應過，部長，沒關係，這我知道，只是好奇啦，第一、如果你不知道這事情，但其實不知道也不應該啦，坦白說，如果我國廠商出去投資，你沒有掌握，本身也是有點奇怪，提醒一下部長；再來，部長昨天講去日本、去菲律賓買綠電送回臺灣，價格比本土便宜，那不是很奇怪嗎？同樣的廠商，以在臺灣內部很大的雲豹為例，它去菲律賓投資太陽能，你又提到我們出國去買綠電，比臺灣本土便宜，那臺灣的本土廠商不就冤大頭？我們這些消費者不就冤大頭？你不就冤大頭嗎？為什麼會發生這種事情？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們臺灣土地有限，我們的海岸也有限，但是綠能業者有經濟規模，當它的經濟規模達到的時候，它可以充分的降低成本，這個就是經濟的原理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長，你剛剛提到的就是企業經營的角度，畢竟你從企業界來，如果今天我們真的去國外買綠電比較便宜的話，那我們國內幹嘛還要繼續發展這件事情呢？"],["郭部長智輝：國內還是要發展綠電啊。"],["黃委員健豪：但成本高啊，如果從企業經營的角度來看，你今天從企業界來，你也知道理論上我們現在的綠電成本可能相對比國外高，既然你都覺得去國外買的價格遠低於本土綠電，那不是就應該鼓勵我們國內的廠商去國外買綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這有兩個不同的意義，如果在國外可以幫助它降低成本，事實上，國內的產業可以到國外去發揮，這個是非常重要的成本觀念。"],["黃委員健豪：不是，我的意思是今天你提到日本或菲律賓的目的，就是因為你說去國外買綠電，對本土廠商來講比較便宜，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：本土廠商也可以到外國去發展。"],["黃委員健豪：那我們的產業不就外移了？我的意思就是這樣嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，產業必須要有國際競爭力，因為我們臺灣的市場比較小，我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員健豪：對不起，部長，我時間不夠，如果今天國外的綠電比較便宜，那我們希望檢討國內的綠電能不能跟國外一樣便宜，不然，這樣真的對臺灣本土產業競爭是有問題的，部長，我們後面再討論。"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的市場太小了啦，我們不能夠讓臺灣的廠商只在臺灣這麼小的市場。"],["黃委員健豪：好，對不起，時間不夠，我繼續講，部長提到2,000億撥補，可以讓大家未來兩年不漲電價，這是你的承諾，如果給你2,000億之後，電價漲了，你準備下台，這是你講的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，我們試算了一下，過去10年來，台電以前有賺錢，所以有所謂的電價穩定準備金，以前都用電價穩定準備金來撥補，但112年之後因為電價穩定準備金花完了，台電自己沒有錢了，所以用政府預算來撥補，陸陸續續一直在撥補，包含政府之前增資2,500億，現在你提到還要再撥補2,000億。部長，我們看一張圖，試算一下2,000億是什麼概念，兩年臺灣2,300萬人，就是每人負擔8,696元，兩年電價有12期電費，平均一個人要付725元，以四口之家來說，就算很省電，而且是民生用電，如果今天立法院同意撥補2,000億給台電，等於每一期從每個人口袋裡面掏出2,900元電費，部長，這樣的政策合理嗎？你今天要政府掏2,000億出來，以台電公司為例，台電是公司，你用企業角度經營來看，今天要增資也要有規劃，也要財務試算，你無緣無故叫股東，政府是股東，拿2,000億來幫台電去補2,000億的缺口，你要怎麼樣做到後續這兩年能夠確定成本不會再上漲，還能夠把盈餘補回來？"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個2,000億是在補台電的財務。"],["黃委員健豪：這2,000億的錢不就是人民的納稅錢嗎？又不是你拿出來的錢。"],["郭部長智輝：為什麼需要這個錢？是因為過去三年我們給民生的電價基本上都是虧錢的，每一度電要虧一塊錢以上。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，你這樣講的話，意思就是你等於是用變相漲電價的方式補回來，如果是要建立使用者付費的觀念的話，應該是後續用電多的人付費啊，而不是從人民的納稅錢來出，那就是四口之家的每一個人要拿2,900元出來。"],["郭部長智輝：我們補貼的就是小的用戶、小的商家、住家。"],["黃委員健豪：你的補貼也是從人民納稅錢拿出來的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：這一些就是比較弱勢的。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，你要講如果我們同意撥補2,000億了之後，你不漲電價，但這2,000億怎麼來的？我剛剛講的，這2,000億一樣是從納稅錢來的、從國庫出的，這樣換算下來，不管我再怎麼省電……"],["郭部長智輝：所以委員您的指教就是使用者付費？"],["黃委員健豪：第一、使用者付費；第二、如果你真的堅持要這2,000億，因為今天等於是辦理公司增資的意思，要發行新股，用這2,000億去填補過去的虧損，那2,000億給你之後，你總要提出一個財務規劃啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們提出就是我們會努力來改善整個台電的成本結構。"],["黃委員健豪：那你要算出來，你要提供報告，讓民眾、讓立法院知道未來兩年你要怎麼樣用這2,000億去把缺口補起來，然後保證電價不會上漲。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個是補貼，不是增資，所以我跟您如果是股東的話，我也鄭重在這裡跟你報告，就是我們會去努力補貼台電過去的財務損失，這個損失是因為去照顧中小企業、家庭……"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，主席站起來代表我時間到了。部長，你用這2,000億補過去的缺口，未來兩年台電公司或整個臺灣的能源成本結構，你應該算出來，讓我們知道這2,000億補了，還有你承諾兩年不漲電價的原因是什麼，我覺得你要提出報告，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為我努力得到這個結果……"],["黃委員健豪：不是，你報告提不提得出來？"],["郭部長智輝：會讓電價審議委員來判斷不漲價。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，那你有沒有辦法提出試算報告、提出財務規劃？要不然，我要怎麼同意你這2,000億撥補？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以來努力來做這部分，跟委員報告。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}