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報告委員是這樣子我們現在不管做任何一個電廠都要6年"},{"start":191.041,"end":192.142,"text":"請問一下你這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的?"},{"start":214.683,"end":220.818,"text":"你這個概念就是到海外設電廠而且你還研究了啊電也比較便宜啊電纜也沒問題這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的"},{"start":222.168,"end":250.76,"text":"其實我這個發想啊 孕育在我腦海裡面 多久了就是從這個美國他們4月份以後 4月份就發想了齁沒有 我大概在7月8月的時候 7月8月忽然間有這個構想也不是有這個構想嘛 這個是值得我這個研究部長我的問題都這麼簡單 你不要把簡單的話講複雜好不好這樣我也害怕你跟你部內的人溝通欸 都簡單的問題都講那麼複雜你是4月看到美國嘛 7、8月開始發想嘛 今天把它講出來嘛"},{"start":251.44,"end":280.253,"text":"有一個雲豹企業6月17號就宣布要在菲律賓蓋那個光電廠那你有沒有受到雲豹的啟發沒有你知道雲豹這個事嗎剛剛才知道剛剛才知道哇那部長你講你知道雲豹今天股價盤中一度漲一趴欸我不知道我報告委員所以你完全不是受到雲豹的啟發雲豹可能他有沒有經過我們投審會同意我不知道我回去要追這個條你要追這個條他沒有經過我投審會同意"},{"start":281.553,"end":305.731,"text":"對我們會對他產就就應該怎麼處理就怎麼處理他會怎麼處理啊我不知道我大概我們投審會是有個規範反正就是你不是因為雲報的關係啊扯這構想完全都沒有啦那你瞭解菲律賓現在台灣有在那邊設電廠多少嗎這個跟菲律賓的電廠是完全沒有關係的事情不是啦我台氣因為你是鼓勵台灣企業去那邊設電廠啊那目前有沒有企業在那邊設電廠有沒有"},{"start":307.401,"end":307.541,"text":"主席"},{"start":326.17,"end":346.01,"text":"你不是鼓勵台灣的企業去那邊設什麼?我們去那邊大概就是光電阿就是我們自己比較熟悉的光電或是風電嘛但是電廠不一樣那你是鼓勵我們企業去那邊設什麼?設光電阿或者是風電阿我的想法是這樣就是我們比較有能耐的那現在台灣有多少企業在那邊有光電跟風電?多少?"},{"start":350.006,"end":355.352,"text":"我在講嘛,我已經講過了,光電、風電跟地熱有多少?台灣企業在那邊做這個業務有多少?"},{"start":357.418,"end":380.103,"text":"你都不調查一下喔你不調查一下你就直接把這個構想講出來喔最後部長所以我跟你請教一下喔你有提到就是說要把高碳排氣液移到海外去啊說要乾坤大挪移這個是太天才了我跟你講我跟你講一個解決用電需求的方法你就把那個用電比較大的氣液把它趕到海外就好我們台灣就不會缺電了"},{"start":382.29,"end":392.647,"text":"怎麼會用這種方式來解決我們全世界都是在招商只有我們趕企業只是因為他碳排比較多那你要解決用電就把用電大戶趕走嘛"},{"start":393.766,"end":395.608,"text":"你講說要高碳牌企業移到海外"},{"start":413.72,"end":438.897,"text":"高碳牌遇到海外讓他在那個地方有競爭力啊那台灣的就業機會就少啦台灣的投資就少啦開玩笑我們台灣現在半導體跟AI的產業一直要進來啊這是高質化的這個產業對台灣的競爭力是提升的台灣的半導體產業進來不是因為被這些高碳牌企業卡住嗎這兩回事嘛是沒有錯是兩回事但是我們把這些產業"},{"start":441.639,"end":442.019,"text":"報告委員：葉元之"},{"start":465.33,"end":485.873,"text":"因為很多是上下游之間的logistic問題所以這個cost的問題我是建議說讓你到國外去可以大帶小的帶到國外去具有競爭力這個對他來講是好處的啦比如在台灣你的競爭力是減低的相當的抽象因為我時間到了就先這樣謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:08:16 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14:16:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1375,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（14時8分）麻煩請經濟部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：您好。"],["葉委員元之：一樣啦，您的一番話造成大家在立法院討論一整天，所以代表你不能夠隨便亂講話，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["葉委員元之：按照你的計畫、你的構想，你的講法是你是要鼓勵企業還是政府在海外設電廠？是用哪一個方式？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是鼓勵企業。"],["葉委員元之：鼓勵企業？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以你是用鼓勵企業的方式，在海外設電廠，那你有提到會請AIT的人幫忙，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，這個呂宋經濟廊帶計畫是美國、日本、菲律賓他們所擬訂的。"],["葉委員元之：這我都知道，你只要針對我的問題回答就好，因為今天報紙都寫很清楚了。你有找AIT幫忙，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，因為他……"],["葉委員元之：有沒有嘛？部長，因為我時間有限，我沒辦法讓你從盤古開天開始講。你有沒有找AIT幫忙？"],["郭部長智輝：我想說這樣比較清楚一點。"],["葉委員元之：你有沒有找AIT幫忙？"],["郭部長智輝：我們找AIT幫忙是溝通嘛。"],["葉委員元之：有或沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：看他們這個project我們可不可以join。"],["葉委員元之：但是你有請他們幫忙溝通就對了。所以基本上我認為你說你是草率發言，我覺得你是改口，實際上你是有這個計畫啦！因為按照報紙的說法，你的計畫非常完整。第一個是你有原因，對不對？就是說新加坡到澳洲4,800公里都可以，為什麼我們跟呂宋島才差300公里就不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，我們可以在海外買到比臺灣更便宜的電，你也講了。再來是你鼓勵企業。所以這個完全就是你的構想，但可能是不是話講太快了，受到某種壓力，所以忽然間又改口說：這是我的草率發言。我不相信一個經濟部長這麼大的官，每天都在草率發言啦！之前一下子說要核電，一下子又不要；現在說要在海外設電廠，然後又說不要。我個人不太相信啦！部長，你是受到什麼壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就受到各位的指教……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你提出……"],["郭部長智輝：就說我隨便就發言了。"],["葉委員元之：所以你就改口了喔？"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["葉委員元之：哇！所以你現在就不做這事了喔？"],["郭部長智輝：我會這麼講，就是說我確實……"],["葉委員元之：大家只是……"],["郭部長智輝：我也是反省，講話太快了嘛！就是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，大家只是想知道細節。你也提到，2030年以前要達到所謂的淨零嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：2030年不可能淨零喔！2050年才有可能淨零。"],["葉委員元之：你有提到一個2030的目標。"],["郭部長智輝：2030年是綠電30%的目標。"],["葉委員元之：今年是2024，你這個意思是說，如果海外可以買電的話，2030年就可以在淨零方面有所協助嘛！因此你這個電廠，就是近期會鼓勵去蓋了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，是這樣子，我們現在不管做任何一個電廠都要6年。我2030年要做到30%的……"],["葉委員元之：那報紙寫2030年，你是怎麼提出來的？"],["郭部長智輝：2030年，本來就在我們國內，我們台電所做的……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你提到2030年這個目標的原因，是因為你說你要在海外設電廠，其實……"],["郭部長智輝：不是、不是。"],["葉委員元之：報紙是這樣寫的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有喔！報紙不能夠代表我……"],["葉委員元之：那請問一下，你這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的？你這個概念，就是到海外設電廠，而且你還研究了，電也比較便宜，電纜也沒問題。這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的？"],["郭部長智輝：其實我這個發想孕育在我腦海裡面……"],["葉委員元之：多久了？"],["郭部長智輝：就是從美國他們4月份以後……"],["葉委員元之：4月份就發想了。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我大概在7月、8月的時候……"],["葉委員元之：7月、8月忽然間有這個構想。"],["郭部長智輝：也不是有這個構想，這個是值得我研究，而且我們有一些論點……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我的問題都這麼簡單，你不要把簡單的話講複雜，好不好？這樣我也害怕你跟部內的人溝通耶！簡單的問題都講那麼複雜。你是4月看到美國嘛！7、8月開始發想，今天把它講出來嘛！有一個雲豹企業6月17日就宣布要在菲律賓蓋光電廠，那你有沒有受到雲豹的啟發？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，完全……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，你知道雲豹這個事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：剛剛才知道雲豹在投資菲律賓……"],["葉委員元之：剛剛才知道？部長知道雲豹今天的股價盤中一度漲1%耶！"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：所以你完全不是受到雲豹的啟發？"],["郭部長智輝：我報告委員，雲豹有沒有經過我們投審會同意，我不知道，我回去要追這一條。"],["葉委員元之：你要追這一條？"],["郭部長智輝：它沒有經過投審會同意，我們會對它……應該要怎麼處理，就怎麼處理。"],["葉委員元之：那會怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道，大概我們投審會是有個規範。"],["葉委員元之：反正你不是因為雲豹的關係，有這個構想，完全都沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能。"],["葉委員元之：那你瞭解就菲律賓，現在臺灣在那邊設電廠的有多少嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個跟菲律賓的電廠是完全沒有關係的事情。"],["葉委員元之：不是，因為你是鼓勵臺灣企業去那邊設電廠嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["葉委員元之：那目前有沒有企業在那邊設電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：目前應該是沒有。"],["葉委員元之：沒有嘛！萬一有的話，結果你不去跟它買，你還鼓勵人家去設，再去跟它買，也很奇怪。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，基本上這樣子，會去那邊設電廠，也不會是臺灣的廠商。"],["葉委員元之：那你鼓勵外商去設喔？"],["郭部長智輝：那個是外國的廠商他們會去設。"],["葉委員元之：不是，你不是鼓勵臺灣的企業去那邊設嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不，我們去那邊大概就是光電，是我們自己比較熟悉的……"],["葉委員元之：對，光電……"],["郭部長智輝：或者是風電。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["郭部長智輝：那跟電廠不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，那你是鼓勵我們企業去那邊設什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：設光電，或者是風電。我的想法是，就是我們比較有能耐的，比較具有……"],["葉委員元之：好，那現在臺灣有多少企業在那邊有光電和風電？"],["郭部長智輝：我已經講過了，光電、風電和地熱。"],["葉委員元之：有多少？現在臺灣企業在那邊做這個業務的有多少，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不清楚。"],["葉委員元之：你都不調查一下喔！你不調查一下，你就直接把這個構想講出來。","最後我跟你請教，你有提到要把高碳排企業移到海外去，說要乾坤大挪移。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是……"],["葉委員元之：這個太天才了！我跟你講一個解決用電需求的方法，你就把用電比較大的企業趕到海外就好，我們臺灣就不會缺電了。你怎麼會用這種方式在解決哩？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，謝謝委員這樣的一個……"],["葉委員元之：全世界都是在招商，只有我們趕企業，只是因為它碳排比較多，那你要解決用電問題就把用電大戶趕走嘛！這是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，因噎廢食。"],["郭部長智輝：不是這個樣子。"],["葉委員元之：那是怎樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是讓這些用電大戶到海外去找到它有競爭力的地方，這也就是我境外觀念的一個概念。"],["葉委員元之：你說要高碳排企業移到海外，是你講的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：高碳排的移到海外，讓它在那個地方有競爭力啊！"],["葉委員元之：那臺灣的就業機會就少了，臺灣的投資就少了。"],["郭部長智輝：開玩笑，我們臺灣，現在半導體跟AI的產業一直要進來。"],["葉委員元之：所以就把它們……"],["郭部長智輝：這是高值化的產業，對臺灣的競爭力是提升的。"],["葉委員元之：不是，在臺灣，半導體產業進來，不是因為被這些高碳排企業卡住，這是兩回事，你不要把它綁在一起。"],["郭部長智輝：是沒有錯，是兩回事，但我們把這一些產業，它在臺灣沒有競爭力，我們帶到海外去讓它有競爭力，再迎接臺灣有競爭力的廠商、外商，讓它繼續進來。"],["葉委員元之：兩個沒有互相矛盾，我們同時也可以讓高碳排企業……只要可以做到淨零，我們沒有必要因噎廢食，這兩個是沒有衝突的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員，沒有競爭力其實很多是因為經濟規模的問題，很多是上下游之間的logistic問題，所以這個cost的問題，我是建議讓它到國外去，可以大帶小地帶到國外去，具有競爭力，這個對它來講是有好處的。留在臺灣，競爭力是減低的。"],["葉委員元之：相當抽象，因為我的時間到了，就先這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}