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end":157.44,"text":"三塊多嘛是那在去年去年有全國電力資源供需報告有提到2025年再生能源發電的比重會達到15%那到2026年11月整個再生能源的比重達到20%那未來將大力擴展的太陽能發電成本是多少太陽能發電成本"},{"start":158.527,"end":164.653,"text":"平均是多少目前我們這邊的數字是大概4.88元對嘛 4.88嘛那風力發電呢"},{"start":168.991,"end":186.829,"text":"風力發電因為有離岸的那個部分有前高後低所以稍微高了6塊多對嘛6塊所以部長您這個大企業家你聽我們現在平均3塊多4塊可是我們未來要大力增加的我們的發電來源"},{"start":189.071,"end":206.773,"text":"他的成本都比現在的多出這麼多好那有可能你因為過很有自信嘛所以我本心也覺得你有可能不會漲電價但是呢你可能就是撥補你撥補的整個的這個費用還不是全民承擔"},{"start":210.417,"end":223.292,"text":"所以這一塊本席覺得您真的過於自信還有再來更重要的是我相信很多委員都在質疑我們目前政府的能源政策真的要非常審慎的評估"},{"start":225.114,"end":253.247,"text":"因為現在的用電尤其我們希望綠電嘛那本席之前也有特別提出你綠電的情況會未來極有可能你日間OK你夜間用電需求越來越高會出現夜間缺電的情況那你夜間缺電的情況下你就變成為了要有穩定所以你可能就會用這個火力發電"},{"start":254.287,"end":254.708,"text":"產業用電的成長"},{"start":270.1,"end":293.449,"text":"不斷的成長你用供電的穩定性不夠再者產業用電的成長我在這裡要給部長部長您是科技業的這個大老闆出身您應該瞭解我們現在民進黨政府提到是AI的這個行政院團隊未來在台灣很多地方"},{"start":294.429,"end":294.769,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":311.403,"end":332.721,"text":"你AI進入AI時代之後有沒有評估過AI時代需要用電量會是我們現況的幾倍先不含這麼多科技產業的大力的投入不好意思主席再給我一兩分鐘這個非常非常重要你們有沒有評估過進入AI我們的用電量是幾倍"},{"start":334.192,"end":360.624,"text":"你們提得出這個數字嗎?好,請說簡答因為最近這一段時間整個AI蓬勃發展所以我們台電在估計你就直接告訴我嘛未來進入AI時代你的評估我們的用電量跟現在是幾倍成長我們是沒有到幾倍這麼多啦就是我們整體的台灣的用電量整體台灣的用電量來算那本來是我們原來預估的成長是1.8%左右那我們現在規劃將近到"},{"start":362.125,"end":363.667,"text":"本席在這裡跟部長甚至跟我們全國民眾我們說明第一個"},{"start":377.722,"end":394.34,"text":"你伺服器現在的伺服器跟AI的伺服器差別就增加1.6倍這個1.6倍那就算了現在大家都知道我就以AI它最大的特性就是不斷的耗電我在這裡也已經質詢過部長"},{"start":395.962,"end":418.463,"text":"那AI現在大家對AI不是那麼了解但是ChatGPD大家很清楚各位我們用Google我們同樣一個問題去詢問Google用Google查詢跟用ChatGPD這個有數據這是國際能源署的估算就一個小小的詢問"},{"start":419.984,"end":446.564,"text":"差了10倍他的用電量是10倍未來未來你看有多少人一天國人有多少人他Google轉成用CHAT GPT還有所有的產業科技產業甚至連我們公家機關很多都在講未來怎麼用AI你們不可以忽視AI它最大的特性就是用電量非常非常大"},{"start":447.404,"end":474.335,"text":"所以本席非常的憂心能源政策絕對不是像部長還有我們台電董事長說的絕對不是這樣報告委員我們都知道你們都知道新的IDC的伺服器140kW一個機櫃一個機櫃價值一億一個機櫃價值一億所以這個量的成長我們也都想過以這樣貴的一個那個IDC的一個機櫃它的成長量初期是不會大但是"},{"start":474.955,"end":496.052,"text":"中間當然啊科技一直進步就像我們過去很多東西很貴很快他就馬上的這個會減等於說整個價格就當下來未來就是AI的時代我沒有準備你們目前看不到你們的準備啊你們現在的用電"},{"start":497.373,"end":522.822,"text":"整個是不夠的我們的能源政策如果這樣繼續下去你的綠能也不夠那你綠能不夠你就是用火力發電不管燃煤燃氣造成很大的污染所以這個是台灣的隱憂所以你們不要用口號治國也千萬不要等於是這個自欺欺人我們民眾都不相信啊"},{"start":524.688,"end":541.025,"text":"報告委員我想您所指教的部分我們都會深刻的這個來檢討那麼我是因為你有你知道嘛我從業界來對所以你也科技業嘛我們會loading的去check"},{"start":541.445,"end":541.745,"text":"好,OK"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:53:47 - 15:03:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1697,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（14時53分）謝謝主席。本席有請經濟部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好！部長，您辛苦了。今天會有那麼多委員接力地來質詢您，應該跟您近期的發言有關。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在這邊給本席質詢的時間不長，但是本席有幾個點要特別跟部長提出質詢。首先，第一個，部長，您有未來兩年電價應該不至於調漲的說法，本席覺得您過於自信，您個人覺得呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我對自己一向是很有自信。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以你也承認你過於自信。本席在這邊就教部長，到今年8月，您知道台電的發電成本每度是多少錢？多少？"],["郭部長智輝：綜合的嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：平均發電成本，到今年8月，現在10月，是多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，我們的發電成本大概接近4塊錢，三塊九多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席手上拿到的資料……"],["王總經理耀庭：我們有兩個費用，一個是發電，還有其他的產銷，光發電的部分是3.06。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這個包含發電，還有你說購電嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對、對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們平均1度電的成本是三塊多嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在去年全國電力資源供需報告有提到2025年再生能源發電的比重會達到15%，到2026年11月整個再生能源的比重達到20%。那未來將大力擴展的太陽能發電成本平均是多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：目前我們這邊的數字是大概4.88元，這是去年的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，4.88嘛！風力發電呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：風力發電，因為離岸的那個部分有前高後低，所以稍微高一點……"],["徐委員欣瑩：平均。"],["王總經理耀庭：6塊多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！6塊。部長，您這個大企業家，你聽，我們現在的平均三塊多、4塊，可是我們未來要大力增加的發電來源成本都比現在的多出這麼多。因為您很有自信，所以本席也覺得你有可能不會漲電價，你可能就是撥補，但是你撥補的整個費用還不是全民承擔，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，我沒有請您講。所以這一塊本席覺得您真的過於自信。","再來更重要的是，我相信很多委員都在質疑，目前我們政府的能源政策真的要非常審慎地評估，因為現在的用電我們尤其希望是綠電，但是本席之前也有特別提出，綠電的情況未來極有可能日間OK，夜間用電需求越來越高，會出現夜間缺電的情況，夜間缺電的情況下，為了要穩定，你可能就會用火力發電……"],["郭部長智輝：儲電，我們會有儲電。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，儲電，你們都回答儲電，但是到目前為止你的儲電沒有具體的情況，所以本席第二個論點最重要的就是產業用電不斷地成長，你供電的穩定性不夠，以產業用電的成長來講，部長，您是科技業大老闆出身，你應該瞭解，現在民進黨政府提到AI的行政院團隊，未來在臺灣也有非常多的科技產業，我看到不管南部、中部、北部，甚至本席的選區──新竹，我們有大矽谷計畫，我們整個科技不斷地成長，未來的用電絕對成長。更重要的有一個很重要的數字，進入AI時代之後，你有沒有評估過AI時代需要的用電量會是我們現況的幾倍，先不含這麼多科技產業的大力投入。","不好意思！主席，再給我1、2分鐘。","這個非常非常重要！你們有沒有評估過，進入AI，我們的用電量是幾倍？你們提得出這個數字嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請說，簡答。"],["王總經理耀庭：因為最近這一段時間整個AI蓬勃發展，所以我們台電在估計從現在開始……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就直接告訴我，未來進入AI時代，你評估我們的用電量跟現在比是成長幾倍？"],["王總經理耀庭：沒有到幾倍這麼多，就是整體臺灣的用電量來算，我們原來預估的成長是1.8%左右，現在規劃差不多接近3%，在2.8%左右，所以等於是全體臺灣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：哇！太可怕了、太可怕了！你們這樣的回答，我更憂心了，我真的非常擔心。本席在這裡跟部長，甚至跟我們全國民眾說明：第一個，現在的伺服器跟AI伺服器的差別就增加1.6倍，1.6倍那就算了，大家都知道AI最大的特性就是不斷的耗電，我在這裡也已經質詢過部長，現在大家對AI不是那麼了解，但是ChatGPT大家很清楚，各位，我們同樣一個問題去詢問Google，用Google查詢跟用ChatGPT，這個有數據，這是國際能源署的估算，一個小小的詢問就差了10倍，它的用電量是10倍，未來你看國人一天有多少人把Google轉成用ChatGPT，還有所有的產業，包括科技產業，甚至連我們公家機關很多都在講未來怎麼用AI，你們不可以忽視AI最大的特性就是用電量非常非常大，所以本席非常的憂心，能源政策絕對不是像部長或台電董事長說的，絕對不是這樣。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，我們都知道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們都知道？"],["王總經理耀庭：新的IDC伺服器140kW一個機櫃，一個機櫃價值1億，所以這個量的成長我們也都想過，以這麼貴的IDC的一個機櫃，它的成長量初期不會大，但是中間它就會上去，這個部分我們都在規劃。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然啊！科技一直進步，就像過去很多東西很貴，但是很快的它馬上整個價格就　down下來，未來就是AI的時代。"],["王總經理耀庭：我們有準備。"],["徐委員欣瑩：目前看不到你們的準備啊！現在的用電整個是不夠的，然後我們的能源政策如果這樣繼續下去，你的綠能也不夠，綠能不夠，你就是用火力發電，不管燃煤、燃氣都造成很大的污染，所以這個是臺灣的隱憂。"],["王總經理耀庭：整個的能源……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們不要用口號治國，也千萬不要自欺欺人，我們民眾都不相信啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您所指教的部分我們都會深刻檢討，你知道我是從業界來，所以我們滾動式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你本身也從事科技業嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會rolling的去check、去反省，我們會與時俱進……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望能夠看到中央政府提出來的能源政策是真的務實可行，而且有未來的願景，不然到時候是全民受苦。"],["郭部長智輝：是，今天委員的指教，我們會深刻的反省，我們會滾動的調整。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["主席：登記發言的委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。林思銘委員、陳冠廷委員、王鴻薇委員、傅崐萁委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}