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連檢察官都被誤導啦說有檢媒議題啊 踐踏檢察官的名氣啊那個檢察官 在檢察官論壇講這種話是胡說八道根本沒有這樣的事那如果 在另外一方面從斯坦國事會議 做成了這樣的結論到現在7年嘛"},{"start":685.762,"end":707.6,"text":"要研議方案要嚴肅追究責任到目前為止7年辦了什麼案子這個跟委員報告齁這個有處分了15人處分了哪15人會後名單可以給我嗎你處分的層級是檢察官還是書記官還是調查員是偵查輔助機關的人員所以不是檢察官嘛也不是調查員嘛"},{"start":716.592,"end":737.387,"text":"來我們再往下看你們現在啊偵查不公開的檢討報告葛市長這樣子啊部長請您看一下對於這樣子報告的內容跟成效滿不滿意這個是今年才開始來做一個統計的那我們會去年就有了啦在法務部的網站上面通通都有啦"},{"start":738.602,"end":752.352,"text":"臺北地檢署的網友戰友通通都有啦之前的表格更簡單啦你們今年把它改成這個樣子我就問部長嘛對這樣子報告的格式跟內容還有成效滿不滿意我們現在還在14週"},{"start":758.697,"end":768.423,"text":"對阿所以我問你阿對這個報告的格式跟內容還有成效你滿不滿意上次的格式我認為更能反映我們現在的一個需求那我們會持續的一個檢討"},{"start":769.807,"end":789.575,"text":"我最後齁主席站起來了我只跟院長拜託一件事啊思改國社會議的結論過了7年了以後你實施的結果長成這個樣子啊長成這個樣子啊是不是有符合當初思改國社會議啊決議的內容對於這樣子的成效"},{"start":790.955,"end":816.455,"text":"對於這樣子的成效到底大家滿不滿意能不能夠接受今天不是只有少數一兩個人在講連基層檢察官都看不下去啊自己出來砲轟啊上面所屬的長官沒有實際上面的具體作為啊不過我相信我們的同仁會遵守偵查不公開的一個規定我們也會嚴格的要求你講這個都是空話嘛"},{"start":817.264,"end":825.507,"text":"我實際上面具體的案子你有哪一件辦出來我只有一個簡單的問題阿我實際上面具體檢舉的案子有哪一個辦出來全部都是簽結阿全部都是查無不法阿現在受處費的人數是零阿"},{"start":841.509,"end":852.459,"text":"請部長把黃委員所要求的內容關於他部分的要做一個具體的回覆。謝謝黃委員、謝謝鄭部長。那麼接下來在下次質詢之前"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時8分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：部長早。有一件事情在質詢以前拜託法務部以及新北檢的同仁注意，就是最近一段時間在新北市三重分局、土城分局，兩位非常優秀、年輕的派出所所長，因為毒駕都往生了，留下小朋友，那時候去看他們家人的時候，大家心裡都非常難過，毒駕這個問題一定要重視。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：在你今天的報告裡面也說毒品要溯源追查。部長，對於毒駕那兩位的毒品上源，現在追到什麼程度，有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分檢察官持續在追查中，我相信檢察官絕對不會放棄任何的線索，溯源刨根，把這些上游給抓出來……"],["黃委員國昌：溯源刨根，我們一定支持，但我希望不是只有法務部書面的文字，要落為具體的行動，這件事情我會持續追蹤下去，抓出毒品的上源是最重要的事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。2017年全國司改會議的時候，一個非常重要的議題是，社會上對於所謂偵查大公開或偵查亂公開，深惡痛絕。司改國是會議的時候，也作成了一些決議，結果沒想到2024年的現在，竟然有記者會大喇喇地說，他經營檢調至少7年，「經營檢調7年」到底是誰被經營啊？消息來源200%可以信賴。結果我們的臺北地檢署9月9號的時候說要立案，9月16號的時候就說查無不法，這件事情部長有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關媒體記者這樣的發言，我想這部分剛才委員也有提到，臺北地檢署在今年9月9日已經分案調查……"],["黃委員國昌：所以9月16號就……"],["鄭部長銘謙：也有約談。"],["黃委員國昌：所以9月16號就結案了，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件還沒有結案，還在偵查中。"],["黃委員國昌：那很奇怪喔！如果這個案件還沒有結案的話，怎麼9月16號臺北地檢署就作結論，說是沒有人洩密？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於媒體的一些報導，我想根據偵查不公開作業辦法，要做一些適度地說明，讓這個媒體……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！你9月16號的時候臺北地檢署的新聞稿指出他們沒有人洩密，但你卻說偵查還沒有結束，所以情況到底是怎麼樣？社會上面普遍的認知是，北檢9月16號就結案了，所以……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還沒有結案，還在偵查中。再跟委員報告，偵查不公開作業辦法第八條第一項第七款「對於媒體查證、報導或網路社群傳述之內容與事實不符，影響被告、犯罪嫌疑人、被害人或其他訴訟關係人之名譽、隱私等重大權益或影響案件之偵查，認有澄清之必要」，所以要做事實的澄清。我想，做事實的澄清，這些媒體做……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請先停一下，你自己再回去看一下它的新聞稿，看到底是結束了，還是只是澄清。但我要請教部長的一件事情是，按照有關法務部加強檢察機關、廉政機關遵守偵查不公開的實施方案，這個是北檢自己查自己就可以的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢當然是有分案處理，但是我想北檢對任何媒體報導有關的新聞會有一個檢討小組，高檢署二審的上級機關有一個督導，這部分高檢是有在督導瞭解的。"],["黃委員國昌：我們直接看好了，不是督導嘛！我剛剛把這個實施方案，2018年你們法務部自己公開的全部都把它貼出來了，請部長看一下。第十一點「上級法院及其分院檢察署檢察長或檢察總長應主動派員追查消息來源」，這件事有在做嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我請高檢調查了。"],["黃委員國昌：不用你請高檢調查啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：高檢二審……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！我是說不用你請高檢去調查，我的意思是臺灣是法治國家嘛！當初法務部不是推動了這個實施方案嗎？高檢署依法不是應該主動派員追查嗎？那個法條的文字白紙黑字，我都寫在上面給部長看了，再請部長看一下。上面的規定是不是高檢要主動派員追查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個高檢在調查中。"],["黃委員國昌：這個高檢有主動派員追查？什麼時候立案的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是在媒體的……有關這個案件，那個時候就即時做了一個行政調查，也是同樣在9月9日。"],["黃委員國昌：調查完了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還在調查中。"],["黃委員國昌：這個還在調查當中嘛！沒有啦！大家都很驚訝，9月9號分案9月16號就發新聞稿，讓社會覺得已經結案了，沒有人洩密嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要跟委員做個澄清，這個不是在9月9號發新聞稿的，這是在9月16號發新聞稿的。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這是一個初步的……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下，部長，請你針對問題回答。你看一下臺北地檢署的新聞稿，我兩邊都貼出來了，第一個（左邊）是9月9號，剛剛我說過了，右邊是9月16號。剛剛你跟大家澄清了嘛！到9月16號都還沒有結案，到目前為止都還在調查，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，9月9號的這個是一個被分為他字案的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：9月16號是就初步的查證發布新聞。"],["黃委員國昌：所以還沒有結案嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，只是初步查證，還沒有結案。"],["黃委員國昌：高檢署有在調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有在調查。"],["黃委員國昌：高檢署有在調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，我們來看一下，基層檢察官最近反映的心聲是什麼。基層檢察官說，請法務部開課「要如何學會被媒體經營」的課程，可以請被經營多年的學長們擔任講座，這個是檢察官的心聲，部長有沒有聽到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就直接跟你報告了，這個是基層檢察官在檢察官論壇上面貼的，法務部有要考慮開這個課嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們是對發言人才會做發言人的教育訓練。"],["黃委員國昌：他在諷剌你們，看不出來噢！要如何學會被媒體經營這麼多年。","再往下看，請部長多聽聽基層檢察官的心聲，你到今天才知道，我覺得我有點震驚，殊難想像，但沒有關係，不管你是不是真的今天才知道，基層檢察官說，「對於檢媒一體的亂象……」，這不是記者寫的，這是檢察官寫的。對於檢媒一體的亂象，沒有積極作為，將檢方的名氣踩在地上，終將成為歷史罪人。部長，覺得這個檢察官沈重的呼籲有沒有道理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都會要求所屬落實偵查不公開，我也相信我們會這樣做，我們的同仁會這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下，之前我在司法及法制委員會問過兩次了，我帶秘密證人去北檢作證，結果消息洩漏給鏡週刊跑獨家，幫陳歐珀洗地。我之前沒有公職的時候，我用我自己的時間跟精力去追查弊案，將結果向北檢檢舉，結果竟然被寫出來說檢舉的人是我。依照偵查不公開作業辦法，這個是可以公開的資訊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個已經做行政調查完畢了，這個北檢已呈報給高檢署，也再呈報給最高檢，最高檢已經簽結了。我想這部分的調查是，這個的確是某週刊有做這樣的報導，但是這絕對不是北檢洩漏出去的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不是北檢洩漏出去的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，這個已經瞭解過，絕對沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：後面這個案子是我檢舉的，也不是北檢洩漏的？這兩個案子你們全部都已經偵查完畢了？都簽結了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個已經函復最高檢了。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候結果可以給我？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個已經簽結了。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但我說什麼時候結果可以通知我？被害人不是我嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個我再請最高檢……"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下「檢察總長痛心疾首」，這是我上次質詢時邢泰釗所講的，痛心疾首完了，然後呢？然後現在北檢簽結，查無不法？跟絕大多數的案子一模一樣。","來，我們看一下，司改國是會議的改革方案，對於「違反偵查不公開規定的情形，將從制度面著手防堵洩密的漏洞，也會與法務部研議，如何嚴加追究洩密人員的責任」，這個是司改國是會議的結論嘛！","我們再往下看，法務部改革的方案，「加強所屬檢察調查及廉政機關遵守偵查不公開原則實施方案草案」，要嚴肅地追究責任嘛！過去這7年，針對有關涉及偵查不公開，到目前為止有哪一個案子是成案，有哪些人的責任被追究？因為只有兩種可能性，一個是連檢察官都被誤導了，說有檢媒一體，踐踏檢察官的名氣，檢察官在檢察官論壇講這種話是胡說八道，根本沒有這樣的事。如果在另外一方面，從司改國是會議作成這樣的結論到現在7年，要研議方案、要嚴肅追究責任，到目前為止7年，辦了什麼案子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個跟委員報告，已處分了15人。"],["黃委員國昌：處分了哪15人，會後名單可以給我嗎？你處分的層級是檢察官還是書記官，還是調查員？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是偵查輔助機關的人員。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不是檢察官嘛！也不是調查員嘛！來，我們再往下看，你們現在偵查不公開的檢討報告格式長這樣子，部長，請您看一下，對於這樣子報告的內容跟成效滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是今年才開始來做統計的，那我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：去年就有了啦！在法務部的網站上面統統都有啦！臺北地檢署的網站統統都有啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是今年5月份才更改的。"],["黃委員國昌：之前的表格更簡單啦！你們今年把它改成這個樣子，我就問部長嘛！對於這樣子報告的格式跟內容還有成效滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在還在實施中。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我問你，對於這個報告的格式跟內容還有成效，你滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：比上次的格式我認為更能反應我們現在的需求，我們會持續的檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：最後，我只跟院長拜託一件事，司改國是會議的結論過了7年以後，你實施的結果長成這個樣子，是不是有符合當初司改國是會議決議的內容，對於這樣子的成效，到底大家滿不滿意、能不能夠接受，今天不是只有少數一、兩個人在講，連基層檢察官都看不下去，自己出來炮轟，上面所屬的長官沒有實際的具體作為啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信我們的同仁會遵守偵察不公開的規定，我們也會嚴格的要求。"],["黃委員國昌：你講這個都是空話嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們通函來做一個要求……"],["黃委員國昌：我實際上面具體的案子，你有哪一件辦出來？"],["主席：是不是會後請部長跟我們黃委員做一個回復？謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個簡單的問題，我實際上具體檢舉的案子有哪一個辦出來？全部都是簽結，全部都是查無不法，現在受處分的人數是0啊！"],["主席：請部長把黃委員所要求的內容，關於他的部分做一個具體的回復。謝謝黃委員，謝謝鄭部長。","在接下來質詢之前，由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在先確定議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）如果沒有的話，我們議事錄就確定。","接下來我們繼續邀請陳委員俊宇質詢。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}