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因為這是一個在網路上已經被證實啊 是有這個案子啊 不是網路上應該是彰化縣政府彰化縣政府的勞動局你們都沒有掌握好 我想這個就是我今天要特別提出來的問題在你們的統計裡面 在台移工申請生育給付的人數每一年都提高去年來到了5687"},{"start":77.117,"end":89.59,"text":"但是這個部長知道嗎?在我們現在廣大的24萬多名的家世移工如果他們在台灣生子他可以領生育給付嗎?可以嗎?因為他沒有頭腦寶所以完全是被排除在外的"},{"start":98.86,"end":124.057,"text":"如果今天彰化被爆出來這個案例他是家事移工的身份他生了小孩政府是沒有可以提供任何生育給付跟幫忙的你認為我們這樣的制度是不是有缺漏而監察院的報告其實已經告訴你們這個部分應該要去檢討那我有看到一個報導你們曾經5月份對外講說要把"},{"start":124.838,"end":130.327,"text":"訂了指引之後要把生育給付家事勞工的生育給付納進來結果攤開你們現在的指引"},{"start":134.912,"end":156.168,"text":"一個字都沒有提消失了、被消失胎死腹中了這件事情你們有要研議嗎?有要做嗎?你們5月份有對外講喔你們這個監察院的報告也有指出來喔這個生育給付目前是24萬名的家世勞工是完全通通被排除在外的"},{"start":156.929,"end":177.155,"text":"結果你們現在又指引出來了又置之未提是不是又已經開始不忠說說而已委員我澄清是這樣我們的指引其實還在朝你中還沒有定案所以有沒有要加入我今天就正式問你有在試圖加入可是委員我要跟你要不要加入我覺得部長你要展現決心啊不是試圖加入啊這我要澄清"},{"start":178.956,"end":200.453,"text":"我們有這個想法要加入我們也在加入可是社會上有不同意見你要了解當然包括來自雇主端包括來自其他的那就要展現你的魄力跟決心啊到底勞動部的態度立場為何五月份你們是對外講說要欸講得很大聲欸那就應該要立定方向去執行啊即使有任何的困難應該要排除啊"},{"start":206.877,"end":230.487,"text":"我覺得我們現在政府每一年我們可以去撥2000億的預算給台電談到這一些外籍移工的問題的時候涉及到錢的時候政府就不願意多負一點責任我們永遠對弱勢就是這麼的苛刻這一些外籍移工坦白講他來到台灣他如果知道他懷孕還要來這邊做這一份工作就代表他的經濟有多困難"},{"start":231.267,"end":258.915,"text":"他賺幾個月也好那我們現在說你剛剛報告的很好說我們現在對外籍移工多麼的友善去機場迎接他這種我覺得倒是不必了但是實質上的這種已經遇到問題需要幫忙的我們卻伸不出手來我們其實是沒有提供任何協助跟幫忙的那你的指引訂了一堆你認為有用嗎你今天看看你的指引喔裡面你其實也提到的都是僱主"},{"start":259.875,"end":286.015,"text":"跟這個仲介的責任那我想問一點就是說我們今天有這麼多的移工在臺灣勞動部的責任是什麼你們今天的報告裡面提到說你們現在只有補助桃園、彰化、高雄設置婦幼諮詢中心那我就要問其他縣市的這一些移工如果出現懷孕生產的問題他們的服務去找誰要去找誰"},{"start":289.965,"end":293.001,"text":"這三個中心我們是跨縣市服務的跨到哪裡?"},{"start":294.144,"end":320.527,"text":"比如像桃園都可以服務嗎?在宜蘭的也可以跑到桃園嗎?那他要怎麼服務?桃園會跑到宜蘭陪他去就醫喔?我跟您報告關於移工懷孕的問題我們是跟衛福部一起協作的現在他們的安置是衛福部在處理所以你們負責什麼?因為你們上面的報告提到說你們會陪同這個孕婦就是去這個就醫啊"},{"start":321.445,"end":338.898,"text":"委員因為我們現在的安置的費用是我們出所以你還是主管機關嘛對我們是主管機關沒錯可是移工懷孕了那我問你這件事我問你如果今天它是在發生在宜蘭的一個移工他懷孕生產了"},{"start":339.679,"end":352.164,"text":"他有問題他需要服務請問你這三個桃園、彰化、高雄的婦幼諮詢中心可以提供什麼服務桃園那邊我們可以接案服務我們可以輔導他所以桃園他有服務到宜蘭、花蓮、台東"},{"start":358.067,"end":368.862,"text":"有,我們現在就是北中南這樣子,因為你不可能每個縣市現在都…多少?多少?有多少?服務量有多少?我本來相信桃園可以服務到宜蘭、花蓮、台東…"},{"start":372.839,"end":389.055,"text":"是不是其實數量還好啦沒有多到大家想像的這個部長我希望你不要這個避重就輕喔而且把一些該處理的問題就是簡單化覺得這個都還好發生在每一個懷孕移工生產對他來講他都需要他希望"},{"start":389.275,"end":389.675,"text":"那你的安置資源在哪裡?"},{"start":417.415,"end":438.735,"text":"我們安置就是衛福部他會提供NGO來安置這些黑戶寶寶嗎?那你的量是夠的嗎?如果衛福部的系統很好你為什麼要在桃園、彰化、高雄還要再設婦幼諮詢中心?兩件事我們在北中南這三個是我們為了當然移工懷孕的過程裡面我們當然也要輔導他"},{"start":440.196,"end":463.043,"text":"進入到衛福部的安置系統裡面啊是啊那你前段這個過程會做得很好嗎你才3個地點欸你現在你1到8月你安置的人數也才184人服務其實是要有究竟性、競變性的你如果連這一點你們都不肯去檢討覺得自我感覺良好我設3個北中南這樣已經很好了"},{"start":463.883,"end":471.467,"text":"你真的應該要到現場去看看這樣的服務是不是很好了你認為沒有檢討的空間嗎?量能是足夠的嗎?永遠都可以檢討永遠都可以檢討那就應該要好好檢討可是啊委員我要跟您報告我們面臨來自社會各方面的意見"},{"start":480.632,"end":497.925,"text":"這個不是只有移工團體的意見而已當然執政沒有那麼簡單是因為作為部長就是要面對問題去解決問題我作為一個主管機關我也要聽副主端的意見聽我們社會其他方面的意見當然啦但是這要守住你的立場啊"},{"start":499.249,"end":511.812,"text":"你是勞動部啊你應該要先站在移工的立場不是嗎你有一個主要的立場之後你去說服其他人來接受你的意見嘛要不然你對外講得那麼大聲說你這個生育津貼24萬的家事移工你們要把他納進來這個就是空談啊"},{"start":517.774,"end":546.394,"text":"因為你遇到問題你就退縮啊你沒有一個主要的立場啊你們在這樣子的一個情況底下你永遠踏不出第一步啊這個部長我真的要勸你你現在其實是勞動部部長這個立場你應該還是要守穩的守穩你的立場你才會有一個明確的政策方向要不然各方都有意見你沒有一個主要意見的時候各方意見來的時候什麼都不了了之這個我希望你可以好好思考這樣的一個立場跟問題謝謝"},{"start":549.362,"end":550.947,"text":"好 謝謝王育民委員的分享"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:04+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:05+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:05+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:06+08:00","text":"請何部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:04.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:16.868000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:17.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:17.929000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:18.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:32.217000+08:00","text":"部長，我想你剛剛已經講了，現在在臺移工已經有80萬名，我們看到在臺移工現在有一個很大的問題是在臺灣懷孕生子，對這一些移工的保障到底有沒有做到？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:32.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:43.624000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到彰化最近爆發的這個案例，就是他在雇主家產子，你知道這個案例現在的情況怎麼樣嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:43.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:44.664000+08:00","text":"政府有介入嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:44.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:45.665000+08:00","text":"有提供什麼樣協助跟幫忙？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:48.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:49.505000+08:00","text":"這個個案有追蹤嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:49.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:50.185000+08:00","text":"有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:50.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:52.768000+08:00","text":"沒有，兩位都不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:55.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:11:57.323000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為這是一個在網路上……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:11:58.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:01.186000+08:00","text":"已經被證實是有這個案子，不是網路上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:01.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:04.728000+08:00","text":"應該是彰化縣政府的勞動局……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:05.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:05.888000+08:00","text":"你們都沒有掌握？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:06.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:23.780000+08:00","text":"好，我想這個就是我今天要特別提出來的問題，在你們的統計裡面，在臺移工申請生育給付的人數每一年都提高，去年來到了5,687人，但是部長知道嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:24.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:32.089000+08:00","text":"現在廣大的二十四萬多名的家事移工如果在臺灣生子，他可以領生育給付嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:32.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:32.229000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:32.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:32.449000+08:00","text":"因為他沒有投勞保。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:32.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:33.570000+08:00","text":"所以完全是被排除在外的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:42.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:12:56.149000+08:00","text":"如果今天彰化被爆出來的這個案例是家事移工的身分，他生了小孩，政府是沒有提供任何生育給付跟幫忙的，你認為我們這樣的制度是不是有缺漏？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:12:57.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:02.273000+08:00","text":"其實監察院的報告已經告訴你們，這個部分應該要去檢討。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:02.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:13.686000+08:00","text":"我有看到一則報導，你們曾經在5月份對外說，訂了指引之後，要把家事勞工的生育給付納進來。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:13.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:26.057000+08:00","text":"結果攤開你們現在的指引，一個字都沒有提，被消失了、胎死腹中了，這件事情你們有要研議嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:26.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:27.198000+08:00","text":"有要做嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:27.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:46.691000+08:00","text":"你們5月份有對外講，監察院的報告也有指出來，這個生育給付，目前24萬名的家事勞工是統統被排除在外的，結果你們現在指引出來了又隻字未提，是不是已經胎死腹中，只是說說而已？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:47.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:52.392000+08:00","text":"委員，我澄清一下，我們的指引其實還在草擬中，還沒有定案。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:52.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:53.052000+08:00","text":"所以有沒有要加入？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:53.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:53.973000+08:00","text":"我今天就正式問你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:54.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:56.233000+08:00","text":"有在試圖加入，可是委員我要跟你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:56.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:57.054000+08:00","text":"要不要加入？要，會。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:13:57.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:13:59.894000+08:00","text":"我覺得部長要展現決心，不是試圖加入。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:00.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:14.846000+08:00","text":"委員，這個我要澄清，我們有這個想法要加入，我們也在加入，可是社會上有不同意見，你要了解，包括來自雇主端，包括來自其他的……","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:15.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:17.708000+08:00","text":"那就要展現你的魄力跟決心啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:17.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:19.950000+08:00","text":"到底勞動部的態度、立場為何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:20.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:22.992000+08:00","text":"5月份你們是對外說要，講得很大聲耶！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:22.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:23.992000+08:00","text":"對，我們有在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:22.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:23.533000+08:00","text":"那就應該要立定方向去執行啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:23.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:24.433000+08:00","text":"即使有任何的困難，應該要排除啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:30.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:45.823000+08:00","text":"我覺得現在政府每一年可以去撥2,000億的預算給台電，談到這些外籍移工問題的時候、涉及到錢的時候，政府就不願意多負一點責任，我們永遠對弱勢就是這麼的苛刻。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:46.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:14:56.527000+08:00","text":"坦白講，這些外籍移工來到臺灣，他如果知道他懷孕卻還要來這邊做這份工作，就代表他的經濟有多困難，他賺幾個月也好。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:14:58.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:15.373000+08:00","text":"你剛剛報告得很好，說我們現在對外籍移工多麼的友善，去機場迎接他，這一種我覺得倒是不必了，但是實質上這種已經遇到問題、需要幫忙的，我們卻伸不出手來，我們其實是沒有提供任何的協助跟幫忙的。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:15.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:19.354000+08:00","text":"你的指引訂了一堆，你認為有用嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:19.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:34.003000+08:00","text":"你今天看看你的指引，裡面其實提到的都是雇主跟仲介的責任，我想問一點，我們今天有這麼多的移工在臺灣，勞動部的責任是什麼？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:34.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:50.015000+08:00","text":"你們今天的報告裡面提到，你們現在只有補助桃園、彰化、高雄設置婦幼諮詢中心，我就要問，其他縣市的移工如果出現懷孕生產的問題，他們的服務要去找誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:53.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:56.076000+08:00","text":"這3個中心我們是跨縣市服務的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:56.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:57.001000+08:00","text":"跨到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:58.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:15:59.305000+08:00","text":"比如說桃園就是服務北部這邊。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:15:59.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:00.786000+08:00","text":"都可以服務嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:00.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:03.068000+08:00","text":"在宜蘭的也可以跑到桃園嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:03.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:04.289000+08:00","text":"他要怎麼服務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:04.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:07.773000+08:00","text":"桃園的會跑到宜蘭去陪他就醫嗎？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:08.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:15.740000+08:00","text":"委員，我要跟您報告，關於移工懷孕的問題，我們是跟衛福部一起協作的，現在他們的安置是衛福部在處理。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:16.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:18.702000+08:00","text":"所以你們負責什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:18.702000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:19.702000+08:00","text":"我們負責……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:18.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:24.507000+08:00","text":"因為你們的報告提到，你們會陪同孕婦去就醫啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:25.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:29.588000+08:00","text":"委員，因為現在的安置費用是我們出，我們負責……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:30.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:31.930000+08:00","text":"是啊，所以你還是主管機關嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:33.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:37.314000+08:00","text":"對，我們是主管機關沒錯，可是移工懷孕的這件事，我必須跟衛福部一起來處理。","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:37.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:51.663000+08:00","text":"我問你，如果今天發生在宜蘭的一個移工懷孕生產了，他有問題、需要服務，請問這3個桃園、彰化、高雄的婦幼諮詢中心可以提供什麼服務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:51.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:16:54.584000+08:00","text":"桃園那邊可以接案服務，我們可以輔導他，請桃園這邊……","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:16:54.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:02.067000+08:00","text":"所以桃園的有服務到宜蘭、花蓮、臺東？有。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:02.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:03.067000+08:00","text":"多少個案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:02.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:07.354000+08:00","text":"我們現在是北、中、南這樣子，因為不可能每個縣市都……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:09.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:10.358000+08:00","text":"服務量有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:10.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:12.862000+08:00","text":"我不太相信桃園可以服務到宜蘭、花蓮、臺東。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:17.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:20.623000+08:00","text":"委員，到現在移工生子也大概才3,000人，其實數量還好，沒有多到大家想像得那麼多。","quality":0.424},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:20.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:27.910000+08:00","text":"部長，我希望你不要避重就輕，而且把一些該處理的問題簡單化，覺得這個都還好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:28.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:33.035000+08:00","text":"發生在每一個懷孕的移工身上，對他來講，他都需要也希望臺灣政府可以提供適度的幫忙。","quality":0.541},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:33.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:34.035000+08:00","text":"如果你要推給衛福部，你說你們是跟衛福部合作，那我要知道你現在跟衛福部的機制是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:34.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:35.035000+08:00","text":"衛福部有人會陪同移工去就醫嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:35.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:36.035000+08:00","text":"他懷孕、他的安置都可以做到嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:36.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:37.035000+08:00","text":"他的安置是針對他的寶寶，是衛福部的NGO……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:37.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:38.035000+08:00","text":"那產婦的部分呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:38.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:39.035000+08:00","text":"移工的部分呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:39.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:40.035000+08:00","text":"產婦的部分，當然我們健保都會處理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:17:33.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:17:33.675000+08:00","text":"那你的安置資源在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:02.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:06.580000+08:00","text":"就是衛福部會提供NGO來安置這些黑戶寶寶們……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:06.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:08.822000+08:00","text":"你的量是夠的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:08.822000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:09.822000+08:00","text":"而且會提供寄養家庭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:08.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:14.427000+08:00","text":"如果衛福部的系統很好，你為什麼在桃園、彰化、高雄還要再設婦幼諮詢中心？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:15.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:26.057000+08:00","text":"這是兩件事，我們在北、中、南這3個地方設中心，是因為移工懷孕的過程裡面，我們當然也要輔導他進入到衛福部的安置系統裡面。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:26.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:29.938000+08:00","text":"是啊，那你前端的這個過程會做得很好嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:29.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:52.325000+08:00","text":"你才3個地點，1到8月你安置的人數也才184人，服務其實是要有就近性、近便性的，如果連這一點你們都不肯去檢討，覺得自我感覺良好，覺得你設北、中、南3個就已經很好了，那你真的應該要到現場去看這樣的服務是不是很好了，你認為沒有檢討的空間嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:52.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:52.706000+08:00","text":"量能是足夠的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:52.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:53.726000+08:00","text":"我們當然永遠都可以檢討。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:53.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:54.146000+08:00","text":"那就應該要好好檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:54.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:18:55.467000+08:00","text":"可是委員，我要跟您報告，我們面臨來自社會各方的意見……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:18:55.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:19:04.632000+08:00","text":"當然啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:19:04.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:19:07.234000+08:00","text":"這個不是只有移工團體的意見而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:19:07.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:19:13.979000+08:00","text":"當然執政沒有那麼簡單，但作為部長，就是要去面對問題、解決問題，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:19:13.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:19:19.604000+08:00","text":"我作為主管機關，我也要聽雇主端的意見，聽社會其他方面的意見，所以請您諒解。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:19:19.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:19:28.130000+08:00","text":"當然，但是你要守住你的立場，你是勞動部，你應該要先站在移工的立場，不是嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:19:28.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:19:49.279000+08:00","text":"你有一個主要的立場之後，你去說服其他人來接受你的意見，要不然你對外講得那麼大聲說，你這個生育津貼要把24萬的家事移工納進來，這個就是空談，因為你遇到問題就退縮，你沒有一個主要的立場，在這樣的情況底下，你永遠踏不出第一步。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-17T09:19:50.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:20:10.394000+08:00","text":"部長，我真的要勸你，你現在其實是勞動部部長，這個立場你應該還是要守穩，守穩你的立場，你才會有一個明確的政策方向，要不然各方都有意見，你沒有一個主要意見的時候，當各方意見來的時候，什麼都不了了之，我希望你可以好好地思考這樣一個立場跟問題，謝謝。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-17T09:20:13.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:20:13.944000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T09:20:13.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T09:20:14.827000+08:00","text":"謝謝王育敏委員的發言。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T09:20:15.327000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T09:20:18.469857+08:00","text":"接下來請陳昭姿委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":119,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時11分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我想你剛剛已經講了，現在在臺移工已經有80萬名，我們看到在臺移工現在有一個很大的問題是在臺灣懷孕生子，對這一些移工的保障到底有沒有做到？我們可以看到彰化最近爆發的這個案例，就是他在雇主家產子，你知道這個案例現在的情況怎麼樣嗎？政府有介入嗎？有提供什麼樣協助跟幫忙？這個個案有追蹤嗎？有掌握嗎？沒有，兩位都不知道。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，因為這是一個在網路上……"],["王委員育敏：已經被證實是有這個案子，不是網路上。"],["何部長佩珊：應該是彰化縣政府的勞動局……"],["王委員育敏：你們都沒有掌握？好，我想這個就是我今天要特別提出來的問題，在你們的統計裡面，在臺移工申請生育給付的人數每一年都提高，去年來到了5,687人，但是部長知道嗎？現在廣大的二十四萬多名的家事移工如果在臺灣生子，他可以領生育給付嗎？可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：因為他沒有投勞保。"],["王委員育敏：所以完全是被排除在外的。如果今天彰化被爆出來的這個案例是家事移工的身分，他生了小孩，政府是沒有提供任何生育給付跟幫忙的，你認為我們這樣的制度是不是有缺漏？其實監察院的報告已經告訴你們，這個部分應該要去檢討。我有看到一則報導，你們曾經在5月份對外說，訂了指引之後，要把家事勞工的生育給付納進來。結果攤開你們現在的指引，一個字都沒有提，被消失了、胎死腹中了，這件事情你們有要研議嗎？有要做嗎？你們5月份有對外講，監察院的報告也有指出來，這個生育給付，目前24萬名的家事勞工是統統被排除在外的，結果你們現在指引出來了又隻字未提，是不是已經胎死腹中，只是說說而已？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我澄清一下，我們的指引其實還在草擬中，還沒有定案。"],["王委員育敏：所以有沒有要加入？我今天就正式問你。"],["何部長佩珊：有在試圖加入，可是委員我要跟你……"],["王委員育敏：要不要加入？"],["何部長佩珊：要，會。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得部長要展現決心，不是試圖加入。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個我要澄清，我們有這個想法要加入，我們也在加入，可是社會上有不同意見，你要了解，包括來自雇主端，包括來自其他的……"],["王委員育敏：那就要展現你的魄力跟決心啊！到底勞動部的態度、立場為何？5月份你們是對外說要，講得很大聲耶！"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們有在……"],["王委員育敏：那就應該要立定方向去執行啊！即使有任何的困難，應該要排除啊！我覺得現在政府每一年可以去撥2,000億的預算給台電，談到這些外籍移工問題的時候、涉及到錢的時候，政府就不願意多負一點責任，我們永遠對弱勢就是這麼的苛刻。坦白講，這些外籍移工來到臺灣，他如果知道他懷孕卻還要來這邊做這份工作，就代表他的經濟有多困難，他賺幾個月也好。你剛剛報告得很好，說我們現在對外籍移工多麼的友善，去機場迎接他，這一種我覺得倒是不必了，但是實質上這種已經遇到問題、需要幫忙的，我們卻伸不出手來，我們其實是沒有提供任何的協助跟幫忙的。你的指引訂了一堆，你認為有用嗎？你今天看看你的指引，裡面其實提到的都是雇主跟仲介的責任，我想問一點，我們今天有這麼多的移工在臺灣，勞動部的責任是什麼？你們今天的報告裡面提到，你們現在只有補助桃園、彰化、高雄設置婦幼諮詢中心，我就要問，其他縣市的移工如果出現懷孕生產的問題，他們的服務要去找誰？"],["何部長佩珊：這3個中心我們是跨縣市服務的。"],["王委員育敏：跨到哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：比如說桃園就是服務北部這邊。"],["王委員育敏：都可以服務嗎？在宜蘭的也可以跑到桃園嗎？他要怎麼服務？桃園的會跑到宜蘭去陪他就醫嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我要跟您報告，關於移工懷孕的問題，我們是跟衛福部一起協作的，現在他們的安置是衛福部在處理。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們負責什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我們負責……"],["王委員育敏：因為你們的報告提到，你們會陪同孕婦去就醫啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為現在的安置費用是我們出，我們負責……"],["王委員育敏：是啊，所以你還是主管機關嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們是主管機關沒錯，可是移工懷孕的這件事，我必須跟衛福部一起來處理。"],["王委員育敏：我問你，如果今天發生在宜蘭的一個移工懷孕生產了，他有問題、需要服務，請問這3個桃園、彰化、高雄的婦幼諮詢中心可以提供什麼服務？"],["何部長佩珊：桃園那邊可以接案服務，我們可以輔導他，請桃園這邊……"],["王委員育敏：所以桃園的有服務到宜蘭、花蓮、臺東？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["王委員育敏：多少個案？"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在是北、中、南這樣子，因為不可能每個縣市都……"],["王委員育敏：服務量有多少？我不太相信桃園可以服務到宜蘭、花蓮、臺東。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，到現在移工生子也大概才3,000人，其實數量還好，沒有多到大家想像得那麼多。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我希望你不要避重就輕，而且把一些該處理的問題簡單化，覺得這個都還好。發生在每一個懷孕的移工身上，對他來講，他都需要也希望臺灣政府可以提供適度的幫忙。如果你要推給衛福部，你說你們是跟衛福部合作，那我要知道你現在跟衛福部的機制是什麼？衛福部有人會陪同移工去就醫嗎？他懷孕、他的安置都可以做到嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他的安置是針對他的寶寶，是衛福部的NGO……"],["王委員育敏：那產婦的部分呢？移工的部分呢？"],["何部長佩珊：產婦的部分，當然我們健保都會處理啊！"],["王委員育敏：那你的安置資源在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：就是衛福部會提供NGO來安置這些黑戶寶寶們……"],["王委員育敏：你的量是夠的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：而且會提供寄養家庭。"],["王委員育敏：如果衛福部的系統很好，你為什麼在桃園、彰化、高雄還要再設婦幼諮詢中心？"],["何部長佩珊：這是兩件事，我們在北、中、南這3個地方設中心，是因為移工懷孕的過程裡面，我們當然也要輔導他進入到衛福部的安置系統裡面。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，那你前端的這個過程會做得很好嗎？你才3個地點，1到8月你安置的人數也才184人，服務其實是要有就近性、近便性的，如果連這一點你們都不肯去檢討，覺得自我感覺良好，覺得你設北、中、南3個就已經很好了，那你真的應該要到現場去看這樣的服務是不是很好了，你認為沒有檢討的空間嗎？量能是足夠的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然永遠都可以檢討。"],["王委員育敏：那就應該要好好檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：可是委員，我要跟您報告，我們面臨來自社會各方的意見……"],["王委員育敏：當然啊！"],["何部長佩珊：這個不是只有移工團體的意見而已。"],["王委員育敏：當然執政沒有那麼簡單，但作為部長，就是要去面對問題、解決問題，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：我作為主管機關，我也要聽雇主端的意見，聽社會其他方面的意見，所以請您諒解。"],["王委員育敏：當然，但是你要守住你的立場，你是勞動部，你應該要先站在移工的立場，不是嗎？你有一個主要的立場之後，你去說服其他人來接受你的意見，要不然你對外講得那麼大聲說，你這個生育津貼要把24萬的家事移工納進來，這個就是空談，因為你遇到問題就退縮，你沒有一個主要的立場，在這樣的情況底下，你永遠踏不出第一步。","部長，我真的要勸你，你現在其實是勞動部部長，這個立場你應該還是要守穩，守穩你的立場，你才會有一個明確的政策方向，要不然各方都有意見，你沒有一個主要意見的時候，當各方意見來的時候，什麼都不了了之，我希望你可以好好地思考這樣一個立場跟問題，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的發言。","接下來請陳昭姿委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}