{"error":false,"id":["155668"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155668,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155668","日期":"2024-10-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-35-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-17T09:48:28+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-17T10:01:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065e90720632c984cfade4e273edfded794a9373a247fb1bb1c7bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:48:28 - 10:01:01","會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.24596875,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.70159375,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.434718750000002,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.059093750000002,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.054718750000003,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.57284375,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.22659375,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.29534375,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.205968750000004,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.56846875,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.40346875,"end":57.743468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.110343750000006,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.72596875000001,"end":63.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.68346875,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.24409375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.71284375,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.64096875,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.21784375,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.71096875,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.79909375000001,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.52034375000001,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.78596875000001,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.11034375000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.29159375,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.80596875,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.32471875,"end":136.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.28846875000002,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.86471875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.59409375,"end":149.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.23534375,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.11284375,"end":156.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.37784375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.11096875,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.30909375000002,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.91659375,"end":166.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.58721875,"end":167.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.02596875,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.61221875,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":180.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.88409375,"end":184.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.28034375000001,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.76971875,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.95534375000003,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.66346875000002,"end":192.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.08096875,"end":195.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.44784375,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.91596875000002,"end":196.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.29971875,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.41721875000002,"end":203.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.05409375000002,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.16784375,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.20159375,"end":204.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.00721875000002,"end":207.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.42471875,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.39909375000002,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.50034375,"end":209.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.53409375,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.60159375,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.73659375000003,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.82096875000002,"end":209.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.97659375,"end":215.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.50784375,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.71034375000002,"end":217.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.95471875,"end":226.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.01721875,"end":223.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.38409375,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.54409375,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.64909375000002,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.30284375000002,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.70159375000003,"end":244.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.71846875000003,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.97159375,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.03909375,"end":245.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.07284375,"end":251.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.47784375,"end":245.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.98346875000001,"end":252.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.05471875,"end":255.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.20221875000001,"end":255.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.70409375000003,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.72096875000003,"end":255.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.73784375000002,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.90659375,"end":255.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.95721875,"end":256.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.56034375,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.94409375000004,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.64846875,"end":264.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.41596875,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.08221875000004,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.12409375000004,"end":271.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.90409375,"end":290.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.44971875000005,"end":290.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.66909375,"end":291.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.71971875,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.79971875,"end":296.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.19971875000005,"end":299.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.84909375,"end":299.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.86596875000004,"end":299.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.88284375,"end":300.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.18221875,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.61221875,"end":305.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.91159375,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.94096875,"end":313.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.20971875000004,"end":315.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.91409375,"end":329.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.73471875,"end":347.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.51659375,"end":352.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.10221875,"end":362.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.52284375000005,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.17596875000004,"end":376.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.74846875000003,"end":383.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.42659375000005,"end":384.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.18596875000003,"end":388.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.06721875000005,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.16409375,"end":392.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.09596875,"end":394.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.18846875,"end":399.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.20471875000004,"end":403.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.36034375,"end":405.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.85784375000003,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.99221875,"end":410.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.81909375000004,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.21909375,"end":419.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.62346875000003,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.02846875,"end":421.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.64846875,"end":422.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.66534375000003,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.03159375,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.47034375000004,"end":428.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.68971875000005,"end":429.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.02284375000005,"end":431.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.43596875000003,"end":434.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.55784375,"end":439.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.65409375,"end":444.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.73784375,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.49721875,"end":445.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.51409375000003,"end":453.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.39909375,"end":453.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.14159375,"end":453.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.15846875000005,"end":453.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.93471875,"end":453.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.96846875000006,"end":458.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.75721875000005,"end":455.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.92971875,"end":466.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.03409375,"end":466.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.56971875000005,"end":472.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.16346875000005,"end":475.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.18034375,"end":475.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.51346875,"end":477.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.16721875,"end":480.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.08659375,"end":482.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.41534375000003,"end":483.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.10284375000003,"end":496.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.77596875,"end":502.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.37846875,"end":507.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.86721875,"end":509.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.89221875000004,"end":511.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.68909375,"end":513.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.70596875,"end":514.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.56221875,"end":520.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.8359687500001,"end":520.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.47284375,"end":520.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.8059687500001,"end":524.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.1640937500001,"end":525.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.6997187500001,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.1709687499999,"end":543.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.3172187499999,"end":545.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.5615937499999,"end":547.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.14784375,"end":551.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.8772187500001,"end":552.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.88534375,"end":554.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.18471875,"end":556.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.44159375,"end":559.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.38659375,"end":561.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.39471875,"end":564.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.3772187500001,"end":565.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.44034375,"end":570.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.64221875,"end":577.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.5859687500001,"end":580.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.22284375,"end":582.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.83846875,"end":584.9522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.30659375,"end":587.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.28096875,"end":589.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.1284687500001,"end":592.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.7990937500001,"end":596.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.76034375,"end":598.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.78971875,"end":599.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.63346875,"end":600.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.43471875,"end":603.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.53159375,"end":604.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.53971875,"end":619.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.8459687500001,"end":618.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.49971875,"end":618.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.9678437499999,"end":627.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.7978437500001,"end":628.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.3290937500001,"end":631.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.97846875,"end":634.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.95284375,"end":635.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.62784375,"end":636.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.48846875,"end":641.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.80409375,"end":645.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.71909375,"end":649.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.35971875,"end":656.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.12659375,"end":659.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.1640937500001,"end":661.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.37471875,"end":671.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.6728437500001,"end":672.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.6597187500001,"end":675.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.1909687500001,"end":691.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.8172187499999,"end":695.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.8884687500001,"end":697.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.33534375,"end":704.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.5915937500001,"end":705.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.62096875,"end":707.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.2453437500001,"end":707.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.5447187500001,"end":710.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.85221875,"end":728.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.56284375,"end":730.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.08971875,"end":736.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.5447187500001,"end":735.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.0634687500001,"end":737.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":737.45159375,"end":746.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.6315937500001,"end":752.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.1115937500001,"end":753.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":753.16221875,"end":753.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.291,"end":0.914,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":9.282,"end":34.148,"text":"部長早我非常贊成你剛才講的一句話不要把他們的所謂的警巡警察行動Cost Guard單純視為那樣的行動它應該是一個準軍事甚至於就是軍事行動這概念是對的料敵從寬我先請教中共從啟動聯合戰備警巡到現在它的頻率大概多久一次這個問題我昨天有問過國安局長"},{"start":37.008,"end":56.897,"text":"我剛剛業務報告也提到了這個每月大概三四次那也就是說每週一次對差不多所以我接下來繼續問之前我先提醒不只提醒國防部國安局我也提醒我們立法院的同事跟各界不要陷入中共命名的陷阱邏輯我一直問你有沒有聯合力艦CDEFG"},{"start":61.749,"end":90.951,"text":"他隨便把一個戰備警巡加一點規模你說沒有我就把他取個名字叫C去削弱你的公信力讓內部失去互信那個命名的邏輯因為名字是他來定的樣態是他來決定的所以我們在這邊去猜測他有沒有利件CDEFGHIJK那個全部是由他來決定所以不用進入到這個命名的邏輯陷阱重要的是我們自己做好什麼樣的準備所以回到我剛才問的題目"},{"start":91.812,"end":112.169,"text":"在共軍或者他們的coast guard平均每週一次的聯合戰備警巡他的樣態大概是甚麼樣子有用到戰轟機嗎海空兵力都有嗎都有這樣子的一個狀況存在他大概他平均起來大概機艦大概量是多少"},{"start":113.611,"end":134.579,"text":"這個不等,這個不等,這個有時候他,因為您剛剛提到的就是說他是一般的聯合戰備警巡的話,他就是空軍的兵力,然後另外海軍配合抵近24海浬嘛,對不對?那另外他如果還要結合海空聯訓的話,那他可能會西南再過來,然後再往到東邊,這樣子。"},{"start":138.38,"end":142.504,"text":"昨天國安局長回答我說有新增一個狀況就是他們有用了登陸艦我不知道我們這邊海軍用登陸艦在做巡航這個是正常還是不正常"},{"start":167.057,"end":184.893,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們所掌握到的在這次聯合力艦2024B並沒有看到他們用登陸艦但是在戰備警訊有沒有?戰備警訊有嘛對,在前幾天有一個,但那個是新的,因為以前沒有是,但不是在這次的聯合戰備,就是2024不是聯合力艦B啦"},{"start":186.334,"end":202.173,"text":"也就是說我看了一下昨天局長回答他應該講的就是聯合戰備警巡裡面有看到所以我現在詢問不管是部長或海軍就是說在聯合戰備警巡裡面用到登陸艦這是尋常還是不尋常"},{"start":206.489,"end":225.745,"text":"應該是說他也是做一個操演那只是他操演裡面的一環而已他採用的是哪一款的那個兩棲登陸艦報告委員我海軍參謀長那他一般的聯合戰備警巡那他都有一般他的想定的狀況那除了必要對我施壓的風控之外他用那個兩棲登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡"},{"start":230.829,"end":232.87,"text":"你們研判他 把他放進去 他是要做什麼"},{"start":260.757,"end":261.337,"text":"致海的飛彈部隊都有做一個戰備運作"},{"start":290.552,"end":302.268,"text":"最近對岸有沒有不正常的集結狀態?或者是兵力、物資的移動?您是說?就是近期來"},{"start":303.669,"end":328.312,"text":"在地面的部隊裏面沒有那那個兩位幕僚先請回我先再請教部長下一個題目是我們除了海空軍重要以外本席非常注重的是我們單兵的裝備我也謝謝部長在我們的T112的步槍雷子器跟光學瞄準儀那個確實是可以縮減"},{"start":330.313,"end":352.609,"text":"訓練的時間提高訓練的成效甚至於未來後備戰力要迅速成為合格的步槍兵這是有注意的那個金額相較於大型裝備其實沒那麼大但對陸軍對我們的步槍兵的戰力是有幫忙的那本席現在要提的是抗彈板抗彈板是保護我們第一線作戰部隊的生命安全"},{"start":354.158,"end":382.979,"text":"所以過去曾經發生過網紅拿抗彈板來打當然那個測試的方式也許不符標準但也顯示國人對於我們國軍抗彈板防護裝備能力的重視但我最近就發現我們軍備局局長這件事情可能在你來之前發生還是之後我不知道你注意一下這個事情我們今年初205場採購抗彈板的陶瓷抗彈陶瓷"},{"start":384.482,"end":406.797,"text":"那得標的兩家廠商普插田被判定他是經過越南洗產地的中國貨插盟他用的是回收細粉作為原料結果被政府採購網上你去看google上面就有判定是無法決標那因為時間關係我直接點出一個問題"},{"start":410.066,"end":434.608,"text":"在這一次決標裡面有幾個問題除了我剛才看到以外你知道表面的塗層我們竟然是用聚氨酯不是用聚尿美軍是用聚尿跟委員報告我們規範就是一定要用聚尿他用的是聚氨酯你去查聚尿比較貴可是他韌性比較好結果你們那個材料上面塗的是聚氨酯"},{"start":435.629,"end":436.71,"text":"明年的量產案現在都還在招標階段"},{"start":459.082,"end":483.715,"text":"有一個叫磁性快扣就是我們穿上那個反彈背心可以趕快扣趕快拿下來你們用的是磁性扣你知道嗎局長這個的話是在我們的外歸部分我們有注意到阿為什麼要用磁性扣我告訴你美軍美軍的ESAPI抗彈板是不採取磁扣"},{"start":485.151,"end":512.069,"text":"我們稍微搜索了一下全世界各軍種用的防彈背心它的扣都要用非磁性你知道用磁性會有什麼問題嗎海軍陸戰隊的指北針就失效了在水中的時候或者在移動的時候它會吸雜物所以世界各軍都沒有用磁扣只有我們台灣軍備局在採購的時候用磁扣而且就一家有磁扣其他都沒有這不是綁規格標嗎"},{"start":515.612,"end":543.072,"text":"跟委員報告這些委員提供的資訊我們會下去還有再來我們的抗彈陶板是要用碳化矽的陶瓷你們得標的那一家齁那一家某盟是用回收矽粉判定無法決標請你注意第二名第二名得標的那一家他的生產線根本沒有生產碳化矽陶瓷他如果能夠供貨你去查他貨哪裡來的"},{"start":544.363,"end":563.931,"text":"不要用made in China的你懂我意思嗎不是第二名就好也不是第一名就好你們這整個投標案壓壓烏還有不是就這樣子而已你們為什麼多了以往都沒有你們為什麼這次多了在他那個夾層裡面放了PE部"},{"start":565.418,"end":589.605,"text":"一方面那個陸軍常委長穿的PE布第一個那個透汗性有問題第二個我後來去看了一下只有一家投標廠商他有能夠他在甲層裡面放PE布其他的沒有規格標持扣規格標然後呢塗料給我用用這一個聚氨酯去取代聚尿"},{"start":591.192,"end":600.18,"text":"外行人不知道居安子跟鋸尿那個進去那個韌性那個是有影響的喔局長請問一下這個採購案是誰決定的這些規格"},{"start":605.558,"end":628.219,"text":"跟委員報告所有的規格都是205廠根據他們的去年7月委員所指導完之後新式的抗彈板來用ISAPI測試完之後我們就結合了國內的最大廠我建議局長齁我講坦白話我也不先入為主我也在沒有證據下我也不講是誰但是不要拿205廠跟生殖中心當墊背不是這兩個啦主持會議的時候"},{"start":633.161,"end":658.717,"text":"是誰要用磁性快扣的你抓一個點那個顧部長也是法律專家你抓一個單點看那個單點是誰堅持的大概就知道全貌是什麼就是說這些規格會妨礙我們的抗彈背心抗彈板的量產如果照這樣量產下去以後是不合用全世界只有我們用那個有磁鐵的開玩笑所以本席"},{"start":660.205,"end":672.261,"text":"提供這一些事實上他後面的廠商還有跟我們原來軍服供應商一直累積無法供應售後服務讓國軍弟兄抱怨連連的同一掛人同一掛人"},{"start":677.587,"end":703.997,"text":"軍服我們的供應戰他就做不好了想要來做抗戰你做好保護生命安全做好我都沒有意見我很少針對標案體檢這個事情是影響到每一個第一線主戰部隊作戰部隊他能不能抵抗抵抗子彈的襲擊的這生命安全的問題而且這一批大量採購下去我們搞不好未來連後備部隊首備部隊主戰部隊這三級的部隊都會用到"},{"start":705.666,"end":723.106,"text":"所以部長我最後一點時間給你齁這個案子你怎麼看因為剛剛委員指導的這些相關的這個事項當然我也是剛剛聽到了齁那就這些事項我想下去軍備局應該要做個瞭解我會查證"},{"start":724.488,"end":724.728,"text":"王定宇"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時48分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我非常贊成你剛剛講的一句話，不要把他們所謂的警巡、警察行動、Coast Guard，單純視為那樣的行動，它應該是準軍事，甚至於就是軍事行動。這個概念是對的，料敵從寬。我先請教中共從啟動聯合戰備警巡到現在，他的頻率大概多久一次？這個問題我昨天有問過國安局長了。"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛業務報告也提到了，每月大概三、四次，也就是每週一次。"],["王委員定宇：平均每週一次？"],["顧部長立雄：對，差不多。"],["王委員定宇：接下來我要繼續問之前先提醒，不只提醒國防部、國安局，也提醒我們立法院的同事跟各界，不要陷入中共命名的邏輯陷阱？我一直問你，有沒有聯合利劍C、D、E、F、G？它隨便把一個戰備警巡加一點規模，你說沒有，我就把它取個名字叫C，削弱你的公信力，讓內部失去互信。有關命名的邏輯，因為名字是它在定的，樣態是它在決定的，所以我們不必在這邊去猜測它有沒有利劍C、D、E、F、G、H、I、J、K，全部是由它來決定，所以不用進入到這個命名的邏輯陷阱，重要的是我們自己做好什麼樣的準備，所以回到我剛才問的題目，共軍或者他們的Coast Guard平均每週一次的聯合戰備警巡，它的樣態大概是什麼樣子？有用到戰轟機嗎？海空兵力都有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：都有這樣子的狀況存在。"],["王委員定宇：它平均起來，機艦的量大概是多少？"],["顧部長立雄：這個不等。"],["王委員定宇：不等是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：不等，有時候……因為您剛剛提到的，它是一般的聯合戰備警巡的話，就是空軍的兵力，然後海軍配合抵近24浬嘛，對不對？"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["顧部長立雄：另外，它如果還要結合海空聯訓的話，可能會西南再過來……"],["王委員定宇：再往下走。"],["顧部長立雄：再往東邊這樣子。"],["王委員定宇：所以剛才已經提到頻率、樣態、範圍大概是貼近24浬，如果它有擴大的話，會往南部比較空……"],["顧部長立雄：往南邊……"],["王委員定宇：比較空曠的區域演訓。"],["顧部長立雄：或者以運油-20再晃到東邊。"],["王委員定宇：昨天國安局長回答我有新增一個狀況，就是他們有用了登陸艦，我不知道我們海軍的狀況，用登陸艦在做巡航，這是正常還是不正常？"],["謝次長日升：跟委員報告一下，我們所掌握到的在這次聯合利劍2024-B，並沒有看到他們用登陸艦實際參與。"],["王委員定宇：但是在戰備警巡有沒有？"],["謝次長日升：是的。"],["王委員定宇：戰備警巡有嘛？"],["謝次長日升：在前幾天有一個，但那個……"],["王委員定宇：所以那是新的，因為以前沒有？"],["謝次長日升：但不是在這次的聯合戰備，就是2024……"],["王委員定宇：不是聯合利劍B啦。"],["顧部長立雄：也就是說，我看了一下昨天局長的回答，他講的應該就是聯合戰備警巡裡面有看到。"],["王委員定宇：所以我現在要詢問，不管是部長或海軍，就是說在聯合戰備警巡裡面用到登陸艦，這是尋常還是不尋常？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是說它也是做一個操演，那只是它操演裡面的一環。"],["王委員定宇：它採用的是哪一款的兩棲登陸艦？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我是海軍參謀長，一般的聯合戰備警巡都有一般想定的狀況，除了必要對我施壓的封控之外……"],["王委員定宇：就這個比較少見的，他用兩棲登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡是哪一種？我現在列了四種……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：他有LST，他主要就是大概是07兩型LST，偶爾有時候我們有發現到他的071在比較遠會做這個部分。"],["王委員定宇：所以有用到072，也有用到071，所以不只一次。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，距離不等，可能就在做一些必要的複合式海灘的想定演練。"],["王委員定宇：你們研判把它放進去是要做什麼？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：可能就在做一個實戰化的戰場熟悉跟訓練。"],["王委員定宇：所以就是航道的熟悉、戰區的管理。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["王委員定宇：那我們對這些情形有沒有什麼反制因應之道？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，所有進到我們責任區的部分，我們都會透過監偵，還有我們的岸置飛彈都有做目標的傳遞跟指定及反制的訓練，我們制海的飛彈部隊都有做戰備的運作以為因應。"],["王委員定宇：請問部長跟情次室，最近對岸有沒有不正常的集結狀態，或者是兵力物資的移動？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說……"],["王委員定宇：就是近期來。"],["顧部長立雄：在地面的部隊裡面？"],["王委員定宇：地面的。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員定宇：地面沒有，兩位幕僚先請回。","我再請教部長，下一個題目是我們除了海、空軍重要以外，本席非常注重的是我們單兵的裝備，我也謝謝部長，針對我們的T112步槍、雷指器跟光學瞄準儀，那個確實是可以縮減訓練的時間，提高訓練的成效，甚至於未來後備戰力要迅速成為合格的步槍兵，這是有助益的，那個金額相較於大型裝備其實沒那麼大，但對陸軍、對我們的步槍兵的戰力是有幫忙的。本席現在要提的是抗彈板，抗彈板是保護我們第一線作戰部隊生命安全的，過去曾經發生過網紅拿抗彈板來打，當然那個測試的方式也許不符標準，但也顯示國人對於我們國軍抗彈板防護裝備能力的重視。但我最近就發現在我們軍備局……局長，這件事情可能在你來之前發生或是之後，我不知道，你注意一下這個事情，今年初205廠採購抗彈陶瓷，得標的兩家廠商「普X田」被判定它是經過越南洗產地的中國貨，而「X盟」，它用的是回收矽粉作為原料，結果被政府採購網判定是無法決標，你去看Google上面就有，因為時間關係，我直接點出一個問題。在這一次決標裡面有幾個問題，除了我剛才看到的以外，你知道表面的塗層，我們竟然是用聚胺酯，不是用聚脲，美軍是用聚脲。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，我們規範就是一定要用聚脲。"],["王委員定宇：它用的是聚胺酯，你去查。"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["王委員定宇：聚脲比較貴，可是韌性比較好，結果你們那個材料上面塗的是聚胺酯，聚胺酯是低階工業材料，它的韌性很低，這是生命安全的問題，所以局長、部長這個要注意一下，你們說明年要開始量產，對不對？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，明年的量產案，現在都還在招標階段。"],["王委員定宇：我知道，你計畫明年量產，我趁你還沒有量產之前，我告訴你哪些問題。"],["林局長文祥：我們會特別注意到。"],["王委員定宇：第二個，你們採購的規格，有一個叫磁性快扣，就是我們穿上那個防彈背心可以趕快扣、趕快拿下來，你們用的是磁性扣，你知道嗎？局長。"],["林局長文祥：這個的話是在我們的外規部分，我們有注意到。"],["王委員定宇：為什麼要用磁性扣？我告訴你，美軍的ESAPI抗彈板不採取磁扣，我們稍微搜索了一下全世界各軍種用的防彈背心，它的扣都要用非磁性，你知道用磁性會有什麼問題嗎？海軍陸戰隊的指北針就失效了，在水中或者在移動的時候，它會吸雜物，所以世界各軍都沒有用磁扣，只有我們臺灣軍備局在採購的時候用磁扣，而且只有一家有磁扣，其他都沒有，這不是綁規格標嗎？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，這些委員提供的資訊，我們下去後會注意，現在都在招標階段，我們特別注意。"],["王委員定宇：還有再來，我們的抗彈陶板是要用碳化矽的陶瓷，你們得標的那一家「X盟」是用回收矽粉判定無法決標，請你注意第二名得標的那一家，它的生產線根本沒有生產碳化矽陶瓷，它如果能夠供貨，你去查它的貨哪裡來的，不要用made in China，你懂我意思嗎？不是第二名就好，也不是第一名就好，你們這整個投標案，鴉鴉烏啊。","還有，不是只有這樣子而已，你們為什麼這次多在那個夾層裡面放了PE布？以往都沒有，陸軍參謀長穿的PE布，第一個，透汗性有問題，第二個，我後來去看了一下，只有一家投標廠商能夠在夾層裡面放PE布，其他的沒有，是規格標；磁扣也是規格標，然後塗料給我用聚胺酯去取代聚脲，外行人不知道，聚胺酯跟聚脲進去的韌性，那個是有影響的。局長，請問一下這個採購案這些規格是誰決定的？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，所有的規格都是205廠根據他們去年7月委員所指導完之後，新式的抗彈板用ISAPI測試完之後，我們就結合了國內的最大廠……"],["王委員定宇：我建議局長，我講坦白話，我也不先入為主，在沒有證據下，我也不講是誰，但是不要拿205廠跟生製中心當墊背，不是這兩個，主持會議的時候，是誰要用磁性快扣的？你抓一個點，顧部長也是法律專家，你抓一個單點，看那個單點是誰堅持的，大概就知道全貌是什麼。"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["王委員定宇：這些規格會妨礙我們的抗彈背心、抗彈板的量產，如果照這樣量產下去以後不合用，全世界只有我們用那個有磁鐵的，開玩笑！所以本席提供這一些，事實上，它後面的廠商還有跟我們原來軍服供應商，一直累積無法供應，售後服務讓國軍弟兄抱怨連連的是同一掛人，我們的軍服供應站它就做不好了，還想要來做抗彈板？你做得好，保護生命安全，我都沒有意見，我很少針對標案提意見，但這件事影響到第一線主戰部隊、作戰部隊能不能抵抗子彈襲擊的生命安全問題！而且這一批大量採購下去，搞不好未來連後備部隊、守備部隊、主戰部隊這三級部隊都會用到。部長，我最後一點時間給你，這個案子你怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：就委員指導的這些相關事項，我也是剛剛才聽到，下去後軍備局應該會就這些事項做了解。"],["林局長文祥：我會查證後再向您報告。"],["顧部長立雄：查證完之後，再……"],["王委員定宇：我本來還要問狙擊槍什麼的，但我不要占用太多時間，之後再跟相關單位討論。我提醒部長，因為明年要量產，所以有時間上的問題。我們當然希望量產，因為部隊需要，但不要為了量產而採用不合規格的劣質廠商，我就這個建議，好不好？謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們一定會注意這件事，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委。接下來有請黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}