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對不對"},{"start":35.78,"end":39.274,"text":"我有一個問題想要就教於兩位"},{"start":40.325,"end":63.735,"text":"因為我最近接到一些關於政府的一些關於治理的問題所以剛好來請教兩位我想請教您就是我們的政府在推動2025非核家園為了推動這個目標所以全數的推動綠能可是當我們在發展綠能的時候經濟部他有一個擔憂"},{"start":64.955,"end":83.152,"text":"他怕台灣變成外商套利的這個對象所以在比方說一些風場的開發案上他要求開發商一旦接了這個風場的開發案市股要遵守規定不可以超過股權的50%說你後來接到政府的風場"},{"start":84.093,"end":109.746,"text":"你接下來事故不可以超過50%那如果你超過他就是甚至可以重罰甚至會跟經濟部跟能源局簽訂的離岸風電開發契約會自動失效你覺得我們今天政府設一個所謂的發起人開發商這個得到政府的這個所謂的風廠開發的許可之後不能夠事故到50%以下你覺得這個設規定合理嗎"},{"start":113.237,"end":114.398,"text":"就是怕有些廠商如經濟部講的"},{"start":131.894,"end":152.433,"text":"就是我用西施來標結果最後把這個權利賣給東施沒錯吧因為他如果今天我今天是以羅智強身份來標案對不對結果到最後標到案子之後呢結果就把這個標案的權利讓給張三你覺得政府可以允許這種事情嗎"},{"start":153.766,"end":176.417,"text":"可不可以部長你應該看過很多政府標案的問題吧對不對署長你也有問署長好了你覺得這樣好嗎我們會請我們的政風注意這個狀況我告訴你不好啦所以經濟部這個規定是合理的問題就來了我想請教您你知道我們在2017年有一家公司叫達德"},{"start":178.158,"end":184.013,"text":"他就是獲得我們經濟部號來許可建制允能風力發電廠"},{"start":185.68,"end":187.682,"text":"我請問一下署長這個有什麼問題啊"},{"start":215.533,"end":240.693,"text":"我們對這個案件的部分就是說我會請我們政風再瞭解一下詳細的部分非常好非常好這是你回答我待會要問的問題經濟部原來說不可以事故到50%以下這家公司很厲害欸一路就事故到從100到0而且中間都是誰核准的你知道嗎都是誰核准的這是誰核准的事故是誰來核准經濟部啊"},{"start":243.816,"end":262.171,"text":"經濟部自己設了50%的原則結果讓達德一路四股市道變成是零那我想這中間到底有什麼問題您總知道像這風場動輒的利益就上百億吧是很大的因為政府給的短購價格很高嘛這第一個問題我們經濟部長昨天答應過我囉"},{"start":264.873,"end":266.013,"text":"請問廉政署你會得到這個訊息嗎?目前沒有"},{"start":289.161,"end":315.144,"text":"如果接到請你好好地去了解好嗎第二個問題更大了經濟部說不能到50%以下結果一路的準但經濟部也是中間也突然良心發現他中間有一天當達德從48要再去調整要去試骨試到25的時候經濟部也受不了了他說你這樣子不對啊"},{"start":316.127,"end":329.982,"text":"你如果這樣做我跟你講我現在直接告訴你你在你拿到電業執照錢你不准再去變更你的股權如果你變更股權我就要罰你了就重罰前面講重罰罰第一個19.2億的這個懲罰性違約金罰第二個更重"},{"start":337.61,"end":348.442,"text":"因為我剛剛講短購價格比我們一般的那個電力成本要高政府是給一個算特許的利益所以政府本來給予允能風場每度電視要用5.8元來買結果經濟部在這個裡面就會議當中說如果你再動你違約的話"},{"start":356.63,"end":378.907,"text":"我就取消你這給你的短購的這個利益本來5.8塊錢跟你買每度電我改成2.13元跟你買每度電中間差價3.67元然後呢算起來因為他每年可以發22.4億度電五年下來你知道可以總共如果是按迴避成本處罰要處罰多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":380.183,"end":390.485,"text":"這數學有點複雜啦3.67再乘以這個5再乘以22.4億嘛對不對411億元啦第一個是發19.2億元第二是處罰迴避成本將近400億元你知道最後我們經濟部發多少嗎發3.5億元那我想請問齁這麼重大的所謂的一個違反當時經濟部原則的一個做法"},{"start":410.158,"end":422.904,"text":"那經濟部本來的裁罰在白紙黑字的那個會議記錄上都說你再變動股權我就要祭出這個處罰了結果我最後達得變成0經濟部最後罰3.5億該罰不罰算不算圖利的一種請問署長"},{"start":431.78,"end":458.771,"text":"該罰不罰也是圖利的一種部長最近我們的檢察官辦圖利辦得很辛苦啦對不對也很努力在辦圖利這件事情是經濟部長答應我啦他說要移送到檢察機關移送政風我真的這邊拜託我們的法務部拜託我們檢察官甚至廉政署"},{"start":459.775,"end":466.461,"text":"不用等經濟部移送部長雖然很有誠意要移送你們可不可以主動來辦一下聯政署"},{"start":467.83,"end":490.401,"text":"可以齁 答應了對不對拜託幫我們好好查清楚政府治理到底出了什麼問題為什麼經濟部明明講不可以事故50%以下結果這家公司可以一路從100趴趴趴趴趴到最後變成0那經濟部中間都已經說你如果再動我要罰你了結果到最後高高舉起400億輕輕放下3.5億"},{"start":493.747,"end":511.124,"text":"這中間這麼大的一個所謂的變化那是中間有沒有土地的問題這些都拜託我們這個部長跟署長好好瞭解一下好不好我們來瞭解下一個問題我想請教部長為什麼要有偵查不公開的設計"},{"start":515.419,"end":529.526,"text":"為什麼要偵查不公開我那天跟你聊天的時候我有一個主張你有聽到了對不對我說我們行事訴訟法不要規定偵查不公開啦乾脆改成偵查大公開你贊不贊成直接再行訴法修偵查大公開你贊不贊成你贊不贊成我們還是要落實那個對阿你反對我也反對我是開玩笑的阿我是專業協會委員就知道我要問什麼阿"},{"start":542.318,"end":569.368,"text":"我在虧你啦沒錯吧請問我們現在偵查不公開這個規定跟偵查大公開到底差別在哪裡我看不懂阿我看不出來阿我隨便舉個例子阿2019年到2023年偵查不公開案件檢討數7255件平均一年1450件部長你知道今年上半年檢查機關所謂列為檢討案件有多少件嗎今年上半年喔"},{"start":570.342,"end":571.605,"text":"今年上半年齁 總共列入要檢討是2035件"},{"start":579.073,"end":585.658,"text":"這只是說你們撿新聞撿下來看到的嘛我告訴你人民的觀感來自於你今天看到的來自於今天我們從新聞上看到偵查不公開現在最大的問題在哪裡新聞上到處都有偵查公開的訊息啊"},{"start":601.497,"end":625.861,"text":"我跟部長說雖然時間不夠啦那我在會後希望您再針對這部分再告訴你到底解決辦法是什麼但是我要特別強調一件事情我跟部長你也交流你們也覺得你們冤枉嘛不一定是檢察官嘛對不對我相信我們的辦案團隊可是跟部長跟你講我舉個例子我舉很快就講了你講那個論點已經跟我講300遍大概有了"},{"start":626.92,"end":629.281,"text":"今天我如果跟你講說哇靠不得了我們這個今年上半年有兩千多件竊盜案"},{"start":656.451,"end":670.875,"text":"然後部長說這不是檢察官偷的你覺得這個交代得過去嗎2000多件竊盜案算不算是犯罪案件然後你跟我講你一個都沒抓到是因為這不是檢察官幹的你可以這樣講嗎我告訴你這個比喻非常貼近我今天直接跟你我就問你嘛來來來我跟問部長"},{"start":682.864,"end":707.886,"text":"今天偵查不公開 是不是鐵針針的犯罪事實 天天在我們的報紙電視上上演這個媒體這些有報導的 這些報導的源頭在哪裡 這個不能夠說是不是從那個 不是欸 這個媒體報導的 我要跟部長說 你要這麼違反這個所謂的我們大家能夠看到的眼見為憑的東西 我也佩服你"},{"start":709.011,"end":714.728,"text":"今天就這麼多的泄密案在你眼前然後你最後跟我講一句說這不是檢察官泄的就當沒事了"},{"start":715.799,"end":740.72,"text":"犯罪偵查我就請問嘛 那麼多泄密案在前面 你們有沒有去偵辦嘛 有沒有約談了誰 有啦 柯文哲案有啦 但是只有柯文哲案嗎 只有那位記者而已嗎好啦 我要主席都站起來 我也不為難主席啦 拜託齁不是啊 我要拜託您啦 真的 你自己列的新聞就那麼多 你辦出來績效是如何 難怪大家對偵查不公開不滿意 謝謝"},{"start":742.413,"end":743.254,"text":"謝謝羅委員、謝謝部長、署長接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時）主席，有請部長跟廉政署署長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長跟馮署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：部長早，還有署長早。法務部跟廉政署可以說是政府的法律守門人，也是政風跟廉潔的守門人，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我有一個問題想要就教於兩位，因為我最近接到一些關於政府治理的問題，剛好來請教兩位，我想請教就是我們政府為了推動2025非核家園這個目標，所以全速的在推動綠能，可是當我們在發展綠能的時候，經濟部有一個擔憂，它怕臺灣變成外商套利的對象，所以比方在一些風場的開發案上，它要求開發商一旦接了風場的開發案，釋股要遵守規定，不可以超過股權的50%，就是後來接到政府的風場，接下來釋股不可以超過50%，如果超過，可以重罰，甚至跟經濟部能源署簽訂的離岸風電開發契約會自動失效。你覺得我們今天政府設一個所謂的發起人、開發商得到政府的風場開發許可之後，不能夠釋股到50%以下，你覺得這個規定合理嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是屬於經濟部能源政策的問題。"],["羅委員智強：它為什麼要這樣規定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這我不清楚，因為這不是法務部的業務。"],["羅委員智強：那我問一下署長好了，你知道為什麼嗎？"],["馮署長成：這我們也不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，就是怕有些廠商如經濟部講的，就是我用西施來標，結果最後把這個權利賣給東施，沒錯吧？如果今天我以羅智強身分來標案，結果我標到案子之後，就把這個標案的權利讓給張三，你覺得政府可以允許這種事情嗎？可不可以？部長，你應該看過很多政府標案的問題吧，對不對？署長你也有啊，問署長好了，你覺得這樣好嗎？"],["馮署長成：我們會請我們的政風注意這個狀況。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，不好啦，所以經濟部這個規定是合理的。好，問題就來了，我想請教您，你知道我們在2017年有一家公司叫達德，它就是獲得經濟部許可建置允能風場，2017年它是獨資，也就是它的股權是100%，可是到2018年股權就剩下73%，到2020年3月股權又掉到48%，到2021年5月股權又掉到25%，最厲害了，到2022年5月股權變0了，我請問一下署長，這個有什麼問題啊？"],["馮署長成：對於這個案件的部分，我會請我們政風再了解一下詳細的部分。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，非常好，這是你回答我待會要問的問題，經濟部原來說不可以釋股到50%以下，這家公司很厲害欸，就一路釋股，從100%到0，而且中間都是誰核准的，你知道嗎？釋股是誰來核准的？經濟部啊！經濟部自己設了50%的原則，結果讓達德一路釋股釋到變成0，這中間到底有什麼問題？您總知道像風場的利益動輒就上百億吧，是很大的利益，因為政府給的躉購價格很高，這第一個問題。我們經濟部長昨天答應過我，他說為什麼出現這個問題、有沒有涉及圖利的問題、有沒有涉及政風的問題，他移交給政風跟檢調，請問部長，你有收到了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會收到這些個案，那個檢舉……"],["羅委員智強：回到檢察官嘛，請問廉政署，你會得到這個訊息嗎？"],["馮署長成：目前沒有。"],["羅委員智強：如果接到，請你好好的去了解，好嗎？第二個問題更大了，經濟部說不能到50%以下，結果一路的准，但經濟部也是中間突然良心發現，中間有一天，當達德從股權48%要再調整釋股到25%的時候，經濟部也受不了了，說這樣子不對，要求達德在拿到電業執照前不准再變更股權，如果再變更股權，就要重罰，第一個罰19.2億的懲罰性違約金，第二個更重，因為我剛剛講躉購價格比一般的電力成本要高，政府是給一個算特許的利益，所以政府本來給予允能風場每度電要用5.8元來買，結果經濟部在會議當中要求達德，如果違約的話，就取消給它的躉購利益，本來每度電用5.8塊錢買，改成用2.13元買每度電，中間差價3.67元，因為允能每年可以發22.4億度電，5年下來，如果是按迴避成本處罰，要處罰多少錢你知道嗎？這數學有點複雜啦，3.67乘以5再乘以22.4億，對不對？總共411億元。第一個是罰19.2億元，第二是處罰迴避成本將近400億元，你知道最後我們經濟部罰多少嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：罰3.5億元。那我想請問，這麼重大的一個違反當時經濟部原則的作法，經濟部本來的裁罰白紙黑字都記載在會議紀錄上，說你再變動股權，我就要祭出這個處罰了，最後達德股權變成0，結果經濟部最後只罰3.5億，該罰不罰算不算圖利的一種？請問署長。"],["馮署長成：我們會去了解整個情況。"],["羅委員智強：該罰不罰也是圖利的一種啊。"],["馮署長成：圖利罪的話就是主管監督事項如果有違背法令，然後就……"],["羅委員智強：部長，最近我們的檢察官辦圖利辦得很辛苦啦，對不對？也很努力在辦圖利。這件事情是經濟部長答應我的，他說要移送到檢察機關跟政風，我真的在這邊拜託我們法務部、拜託我們檢察官甚至廉政署，不用等經濟部移送，部長雖然很有誠意，要移送，你們可不可以主動來辦一下？廉政署。可以，答應了，對不對？拜託幫我們好好查清楚政府治理到底出了什麼問題，為什麼經濟部明明講不可以釋股到50%以下，結果這家公司可以一路從100%啪、啪、啪、啪到最後變成0，經濟部中間都已經說，你如果再動，我要罰你了，結果最後高高舉起400億，輕輕放下3.5億，這中間這麼大的一個變化，中間有沒有圖利的問題？這些都拜託部長跟署長好好了解一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，我們來了解。"],["羅委員智強：下一個問題我想請教部長，為什麼要有偵查不公開的設計？我那天跟你聊天的時候我有一個主張，你有聽到，對不對？我說我們刑事訴訟法不要規定偵查不公開，乾脆改成偵查大公開，你贊不贊成？直接在刑訴法修偵查大公開，你贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們還是要落實刑訴法。"],["羅委員智強：對啦，你反對我也反對，我是開玩笑的啊，莊瑞雄委員就知道我要問什麼，我在虧你啦！沒錯吧？請問我們現在偵查不公開這個規定跟偵查大公開到底差別在哪裡？我看不懂啊，我看不出來啊！我隨便舉個例子，從2019年到2023年偵查不公開案件檢討數7,255件，平均一年1,450件，部長，你知道今年上半年檢察機關列為檢討案件的有多少件嗎？今年上半年喔。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢討的有391件。"],["羅委員智強：今年上半年總共列入要檢討的是2,035件，但是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢討的是……那個是……"],["羅委員智強：我知道你要講什麼，都跟我……私下都講過，你講這只是說你們剪新聞剪下來看到的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是從那個新聞，因為那個……"],["羅委員智強：但我告訴你，人民的觀感來自於你今天看到的，來自於我們從新聞上看到的，偵查不公開現在最大的問題在哪裡？新聞上到處都是偵查公開的訊息啊！我跟部長說，雖然時間不夠，會後希望再針對這個部分告訴我到底你解決的辦法是什麼。但是我要特別強調一件事情，我跟部長也交流過，你們也覺得你們冤枉，不一定是檢察官，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信我們的辦案團隊，我們沒有……"],["羅委員智強：可是跟部長講……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會……"],["羅委員智強：我舉個例子，很快就講完了，你講那個論點已經跟我講大概三百遍都有了，我也沒證據，因為我不是檢察官，我沒有辦案的工具，我也不知道是不是檢察官洩漏。可是我舉個例子，今天偵查犯罪是檢察官的職責，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他是偵查主體。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？是吧？沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！部長，這個你需要愣5秒？不需要啦！是喔！今天我如果跟你講：哇！不得了，我們今年上半年有兩千多件竊盜案。然後部長說這不是檢察官偷的耶！你覺得這交代得過去嗎？兩千多件竊盜案算不算是犯罪案件？然後你跟我講你一個都沒抓到，因為這不是檢察官幹的，你可以這樣講嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官是偵查主體，我想這個比喻是……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，這個比喻非常貼近。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不……這個比喻……"],["羅委員智強：我今天直接跟你……我就問你，今天就偵查不公開，是不是鐵錚錚的犯罪事實，天天在我們的報紙、電視上演？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體這些報導，這個……"],["羅委員智強：源頭在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不能夠說是從……"],["羅委員智強：不是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個媒體報導的這些……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長說，你要這麼違反所謂我們大家能夠看到的、眼見為憑的東西，我也佩服你啦！今天就是這麼多的洩密案在你眼前，最後你就跟我講一句說這不是檢察官洩的，結果他沒事了！我就請問犯罪偵查那麼多洩密案在前面，你們有沒有去偵辦嘛？有沒有約談了誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有……"],["羅委員智強：有啦！柯文哲案有啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：違反……"],["羅委員智強：但是只有柯文哲案嗎？只有那一位記者而已嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這個……"],["羅委員智強：主席都站起來了，我也不為難主席。拜託……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有處分的。"],["羅委員智強：不是，我要拜託您，真的，你自己列的新聞就那麼多，你辦出來的績效是如何？對於偵查不公開，難怪大家不滿意。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。謝謝部長、署長。","接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}