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農藥 央苗還有待耕的機器還有最重要的是這個央苗不能用機器化一定要人來做一個央苗的培育才有辦法而且工資又被調整了現在從日薪從1500條高到2000元割稻機也漲到30幾萬在這種種的情形之下"},{"start":108.942,"end":129.885,"text":"老公基本工資調了豬肉價格調了雞蛋價格調了中油的價格調了台電雖然虧損但是他也調了為什麼公糧13年不能調就是不能調你剛剛所講的因為供過於求"},{"start":131.584,"end":145.117,"text":"因為你的稻穀盛產所以你要控制那本席想請問你休耕一年兩期你現在休耕一年幾期以前是兩期現在呢一期"},{"start":146.221,"end":163.051,"text":"為什麼?你鼓勵耕作那你鼓勵耕作的話你要轉做你的123政策本席也支持照顧農民的權益本席支持因為農民是最辛苦的你剛剛特別計算到半年的時間他們的收成成本扣掉後收入6萬塊7萬塊現在基本工資多少錢?"},{"start":171.755,"end":189.024,"text":"半年時間6個月他一個月平均下來多少錢將心比心做他部長這個位置農業部你有苦民所苦嗎道民這麼辛苦做長的時候陳吉仲說讓農民賺一點點嘛淡商有淡荒的時候淡的價格調弄多少錢"},{"start":196.314,"end":203.868,"text":"我們為了讓全民每天有蛋吃也讓你調了現在道農苦哈哈要求你調整"},{"start":209.469,"end":228.241,"text":"現在公糧收購價錢是26塊施糧是多少錢平均21、22塊所以我們反映市場機制希望公糧去帶動著施糧你不希望大家來攪公糧沒有問題現在全國的公糧土地面積24萬到27萬公頃但是部長數字遊戲不是這樣玩的"},{"start":235.953,"end":243.966,"text":"你收購公糧的價格不是全部的24、27公頃而是有限量的只有10%"},{"start":245.598,"end":266.277,"text":"只有30%這就是你們的大約只有收購7公頃而已這是有限量的你對公糧的收購是有限量的有限量的所以並不是你在27公頃乘以5塊錢就要上百億"},{"start":267.213,"end":267.433,"text":"主席"},{"start":281.314,"end":309.937,"text":"如果你知道這個公糧的限量收購目前這樣子收購的話大概20億到22億但是你說周邊要花掉的上百億我也請你把明確的政策做出來但是今天你的報告這123政策已經執行十幾年了我們都支持但是123政策執行的時候他是照顧了什麼生產環境"},{"start":312.793,"end":313.874,"text":"我跟你們報告第一點的部分"},{"start":333.609,"end":333.909,"text":"所以有私糧啊"},{"start":362.362,"end":385.36,"text":"現在私糧價格多少錢現在私糧如果是契作的話是26到29左右你們給我的資料怎麼不是沒有我找出來要的資料資料都2122而已喔所以你把公糧價格提高就帶動私糧私糧提高的時候的話大家去找私糧而且全部他們生產的私糧會用契作的方式在你123政策不抵觸你管作區域"},{"start":386.721,"end":386.881,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":404.389,"end":404.869,"text":"不是這兩件事情"},{"start":432.04,"end":432.281,"text":"現在太多腦農了"},{"start":441.94,"end":467.379,"text":"部長你要考慮到現在很多老農年輕人沒有加入那你的休耕又從兩次一年兩次改成一次硬要他們來轉作轉作的話你又要求不能一期的做這個二期又再做這個一期做這個二期要再去轉作別的不管是雜糧還是什麼的但是你知道嗎你會耕田嗎你會耕作嗎你知不知道你要轉作的時候要翻土"},{"start":468.36,"end":483.275,"text":"翻土要多大的工人跟成本跟時間啊就翻土去做你翻土再去做的話第二年又再改換所以這個政策有一個在我們這自愛難行的地方本席跟你討論部長你要聽進去"},{"start":486.523,"end":501.631,"text":"我非常謝謝那個委員的指正那水岸田輪作其實就是一個非常有效的能夠維持地利的部分然後第二個您剛才講的就是公糧有限制你只要符合資格你就可以來繳公糧限制數量嗎那個數量本身不是說優質的"},{"start":507.654,"end":507.974,"text":"所以部長 我跟你講"},{"start":523.371,"end":538.416,"text":"我把重要的都告訴你有困難的還有現實面的問題都告訴你請你回去研議一定要落實照顧農民權益好不好會 這個一定我們一定會做到那第二個本期要跟你討論的就是斑斑有鮮奶"},{"start":539.651,"end":558.279,"text":"現在斑斑有線來的這個情形在我們桃園來講的話在全國來講幾乎75%都轉做這個薄酒爐的那你要照顧的弱農有照顧到嗎還是去照顧女性來為他們先把路鋪好來未來他們進來的時候可以空開的使用薄酒爐"},{"start":559.119,"end":587.497,"text":"我跟委員報告現在全台灣國產的生乳大概是47.2到48萬噸然後學童營養用的乳量大概是2萬噸左右所以不管是鮮乳跟薄酒乳它都同樣能夠照顧到我們的肉農第一點那第二點就是鮮乳本身保存不易就是生產段它都會用冷卻的方式你當時在執行這個政策的時候你會想到鮮奶保存不易那學校沒有這麼多冷藏的冰櫃所以"},{"start":588.882,"end":590.283,"text":"可是切的量太大了那提升也來不及了"},{"start":613.376,"end":617.397,"text":"部長你如果了解問題冷藏需要冷藏沒有這個設備還有我們的量我們鮮奶的量不足的話那可不可以說我們發行鮮奶券讓他們直接到超商去兌換"},{"start":636.533,"end":640.315,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,我們未來如果新推出的一個新的方案"},{"start":651.961,"end":652.381,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":674.367,"end":677.789,"text":"對,我們有一個方案,我們有一個方案協助對,我們所有的乳品的部分一定是一定要百分之百國產的然後第二個就是"},{"start":691.015,"end":691.115,"text":"希望趕快解決這問題"},{"start":717.529,"end":718.69,"text":"這個學期我們會針對已經訂單的部分我們會盡量去確保他的學童能夠喝到牛奶"},{"start":726.656,"end":755.593,"text":"我想我們不是只針對鮮乳去做研議我們剛才說的我們的目標就是下一屆如果要再繼續推的話一定讓學校不然現在大家都又喝飽酒乳了啊不我們會再去溝通齁就是如果能夠第一個把鮮乳跟飽酒乳現在的那個比例能夠做適當的溝通可是不只要在這邊保證他們是一週喝兩次你不會量少的時候改成一週喝一次喔不能改喔沒有我們持續的會跟乳廠去做一個溝通增加產能"},{"start":755.954,"end":755.974,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席今天特別排了這個議題就是要好好來研究，當我們政府在執行政策的時候有窒礙難行，所有的效益沒有辦法照顧到你這個政策的所有人的時候，我們必須要研議來修改。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：才能夠讓我們的政策讓大家都能夠受惠，這是我們最大的一個努力的方向。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以今天必須要討論，在討論的時候，我請部長先從大的層面來看起，不要一直要把你的政策嚴格執行下去，所以我們立委是嚴格的監督，就是要讓你把所有政策能夠執行到最下面，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以剛剛部長特別講到，我們農地有租賃地的價格，但是除了這個以外，因為地是農民他們從祖先留下來耕作的農地是不會改變的，我們不去計算這個價格，但是現在為什麼要調整公糧價格？就是要反映生產的成本，它有哪些成本呢？肥料、農藥、秧苗還有代耕的機器，還有最重要的是這個秧苗不能用機器化，一定要人來做秧苗的培育才有辦法，而且工資又被調整了，現在日薪從1,500調高到2,000元，割稻機也漲到三十幾萬，在這種種的情形之下，勞工的基本工資調了，豬肉價格調了，雞蛋價格調了，中油的價格調了，台電雖然虧損，但是它也調了，為什麼公糧價格13年不能調就是不能調？你剛剛所講的，因為供過於求，因為你的稻穀盛產，所以你要控制，那本席想請問你，休耕1年2期，你現在休耕1年幾期？以前是2期，現在呢？"],["陳部長駿季：1期。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望……"],["呂委員玉玲：你鼓勵耕作，那你鼓勵耕作的話，你要轉作，你的123政策，本席也支持，照顧農民的權益，本席支持，因為農民是最辛苦的。你剛剛特別計算到，半年的時間，他們的收成成本扣掉他們的收入是6萬塊、7萬塊，現在基本工資是多少錢？半年的時間是6個月，他一個月平均下來是多少錢？將心比心！做到部長這個位置，農業部有苦民所苦嗎？稻農這麼辛苦，豬肉漲的時候，陳吉仲說，讓農民賺一點點嘛，蛋商在蛋荒的時候，蛋的價格調了多少錢？我們為了讓全民每天有蛋吃，也讓你調了，現在稻農苦哈哈，要求你做調整，現在公糧的收購價格是26塊，私糧是多少錢？平均二十一、二十二塊，所以我們反映市場機制，希望公糧去帶動私糧，你不希望大家來繳公糧，沒有問題，現在全國的公糧土地面積24萬到27萬公頃，但是部長，數字遊戲不是這樣玩的，你收購公糧的價格不是全部的24至27公頃，而是有限量的，只有30%，這就是你們大約只有收購7%而已……7公頃而已，這是有限量的，你對公糧的收購是有限量的、有限量的，所以並不是你的27公頃乘以5塊錢，就要上百億，不是這樣計算的。你的123政策的時候，為什麼只有16.5億而已呢？所以部長，在你來拜訪我的時候，我也請你好好的來計算，如果你知道這個公糧的限量收購，目前這樣子收購的話，大概是20億到22億，但是你說周邊要花掉上百億，我也請你把明確的政策做出來。但是今天你的報告，這個123政策已經執行十幾年了，我們都支持，但是123政策執行的時候，它是照顧了什麼？生產環境，我們現在講的公糧價格提高是反映生產成本，所以部長，這是可以並行的，不衝突，是可以並行的，你一定要去考量所有農民的需求，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一點，目前看起來，剛才委員說的成本提高，但是相對的，在這十年來，它的產量也提高，所以我們算過了，就是實際的相對的影響大概是到2%到3%，而不是10%，這是第一個說明；第二個說明，我們一直希望引導稻農能夠用更優質的產品去提高它的售價來支撐他的所得，而不是用政府的經費去支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以有私糧啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在私糧價格多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：現在私糧如果是契作的話，是26到29左右。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們給我的資料怎麼不是這樣？我早上才要的資料。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我是說契作的部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：資料上才20、21、22而已啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我說……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你把公糧價格提高就會帶動私糧，私糧提高之後，大家去找私糧，而且全部他們生產的私糧可以用契作的方式，跟你的123政策不牴觸。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["呂委員玉玲：你的集團的團作區域裡面不是每個人都去集合欸，如果沒有參加你這個集團區域的話，那他領不到這個錢啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們會鼓勵他們來……"],["呂委員玉玲：而且你的123政策是屬於獎勵的性質，如果他們沒有參加你這個獎勵政策就什麼都拿不到，這不是全面的。"],["陳部長駿季：但是透過這樣的方式的話，他會去支撐他的產地價格，甚至於更提高，從過往的例子來看，當你產地價提高的話，他就不會繳公糧了，所以我們希望產地價能夠越來越高，農民就會繳交公糧，剛才說的部分農民繳公糧……"],["呂委員玉玲：他們會不要契作，要去集團區作，這個都是因為我們公糧有限制收購。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這是兩件事情。"],["呂委員玉玲：怎麼會是兩件事？因為你限制收購的話，他們就要去做集團，那集團的區域的話，他們不會去配合啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在太多老農了，部長，你要考慮到現在很多老農，年輕人沒有加入，你的休耕又從1年2次改成1次，硬要他們來轉作，那轉作的話，你又要求不能一期的做這個，二期又再做這個，一期做這個，二期要再去轉作別的，不管是雜糧還是什麼的，但是你知道嗎？你會耕田嗎？你會耕作嗎？你知不知道你要轉作的時候要翻土，翻土要多大的工人跟成本跟時間？要翻土去做，你翻土再去做的話，第二年又再改換，所以這個政策有一個讓我們窒礙難行的地方。本席跟你討論，部長，你要聽進去、你要聽進去！"],["陳部長駿季：我非常謝謝委員的指正，水旱田輪作其實就是一個非常有效的能夠維持地力的部分；第二個，您剛才講的就是公糧有限制，你只要符合資格，你就可以來繳公糧，它只是數量……"],["呂委員玉玲：你限制數量。"],["陳部長駿季：不是說某一些人……對，那個數量本身不是說……優質的……我們希望他轉到優質契作的，您剛才講的老年人的部分，這個方案在啟動的時候，我們也會去針對年紀大的人，他不了解集團經營主體，我們也會協助，最重要的是水稻是打電話種水稻的。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我要跟你講，我把重要的都告訴你。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：有困難的，還有現實面的問題都告訴你，請你回去研議。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要落實照顧農民權益，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，這個我們一定會做到。"],["呂委員玉玲：第二個本席要跟你討論的就是班班有鮮奶！現在班班有鮮奶這個情形在我們桃園來講、在全國來講幾乎百分之七十五都轉為保久乳，那你要照顧的酪農有照顧到嗎？還是去照顧紐西蘭？為他們先把路鋪好，未來他們進來的時候可以公開使用保久乳。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在全臺灣國產生乳大概是47.2到48萬噸，學童營養用的乳量大概是2萬噸左右，所以不管是鮮乳跟保久乳，它都同樣能夠照顧到我們的酪農，這是第一點。第二點就是鮮乳本身保存不易，生產端會用冷鏈的方式。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，當時要執行這個政策的時候有沒有想到鮮奶保存不易，學校沒有這麼多冷藏冰櫃，所以就可以用保久乳嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在就是盡可能針對有訂單的部分，我們會確保每個學生都能夠喝得到。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在因為鮮奶不夠了，我們本土酪農的鮮奶不夠了，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，保久乳部分的產能，我們會去協調保久乳的生產量能夠再提升，但是我們一定會讓……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是缺的量太大了，你要提升也來不及。"],["陳部長駿季：對，誠如院長所說，我們後續再規劃新的政策一定不會造成更多的負擔。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席在這邊建議，部長，你如果了解問題，需要冷藏但沒有這個設備，還有鮮奶的量不足的話，可不可以發行鮮奶券，讓他們直接到超商去兌換？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們一定會找到一個更有效的方法……"],["呂委員玉玲：它就沒有保存的問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：找到更有效的方法去處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們所有超商有這個量可以供應啊！我們的美意才能執行下去。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，未來如果推出一個新的方案，一定不會增加學校的負擔，也能夠讓縣市政府做很好的配合，這個部分我們後續會來做一個規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是，部長，最重要的是要照顧我們本土的酪農。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是一個非常重要的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以未來如果紐西蘭的保久乳、長效乳進來的時候，因為我們是要補助給酪農，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們有一個方案去協助。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以，補助一定要補助給我們本國的酪農，不能夠讓他們競標，要保護我們的酪農好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所有乳品的部分一定是要百分之百國產，第二個就是生乳的行銷，我們會努力，但是在生產端，我們也會持續協助。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以一定會用本土的保久乳？"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定百分之百。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定是百分之百？"],["陳部長駿季：一定是百分之百用國乳。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，這是你這邊保證的，第一個。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：第二個，你們有沒有研議要用鮮奶券？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會做整體的規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：做個調整嘛！這也沒有運送跟保存的問題啊！而且數量也夠。"],["陳部長駿季：最重要的目標就是不會讓學校增加額外的負擔，也會讓……"],["呂委員玉玲：希望趕快解決這個問題，執行已經很久了。"],["陳部長駿季：這個學期我們會針對已經有訂單的部分，儘量去確保學童能夠喝到牛奶。"],["呂委員玉玲：鮮奶券大概要研議多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們不是只針對鮮奶券研議，我們剛才說的，我們的目標就是下學期如果要再繼續推的話，一定讓學校……"],["呂委員玉玲：不然現在大家都去喝保久乳啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再去溝通，如果能夠把鮮乳跟保久乳現在的比例做適當的溝通……"],["呂委員玉玲：不是，部長要在這邊保證，他們是一週喝兩次，你不會在量少的時候又改成一週喝一次？不能改喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我們持續會跟乳廠去做一個溝通，增加產能。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請廖偉翔委員。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：我們在賴瑞隆委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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