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這個權限那你如果說我其實我一直一路以來我都非常的敬重你我也非常的尊敬你即便最近這個有幾個國際媒體把你評為B家我都認為你在我心目中仍舊是5A的總裁因為你在做很多事情的果決判斷我覺得是很明朗清楚的當然央行應該有自己的獨立性全世界的"},{"start":469.048,"end":496.166,"text":"自己國家的中央銀行其實都有他的獨立性透明度跟可救責性這個是央行應該要有特性他都不應該有太多的外力的介入我不知道你有沒有讀到包括瘋傳媒跟聯合報在近期都有一篇報導提到就是說如果彭淮南在中太敢把手伸進央行或者是聯合報的標題社論也提到說干預央行兩蔣不敢中太敢"},{"start":497.006,"end":513.502,"text":"你自己有沒有看過這兩篇報告?你有讀到這兩篇報告嗎?有看到吧?跟你有關的你應該有看到吧?你有看到齁?所以看到這兩篇報告齁,是我杞人憂天呢?還是你央行其實心裡也有很多的苦?"},{"start":518.008,"end":535.601,"text":"我剛剛還是有跟委員報告就是說中央銀行的一個貨幣信用跟外匯政策這個是由中央銀行的理事我們的委員會來審核總裁沒關係我問你一句話媒體瘋傳媒評論說彭淮南在"},{"start":539.352,"end":548.039,"text":"朱鴻泰敢嗎?言下之意就是因為是你所以朱鴻泰敢打電話給你你看到這篇報道你心裡有什麼感受?我想有些時候媒體他在對一個事件的評論有些時候他也沒有對整個的情況是不是就是說很真正的去"},{"start":566.753,"end":594.266,"text":"知道他只是說也是應該也就是說從旁邊來看做這樣的一個評論那至於就是說他是不是很準確總裁我過去從來沒有看到媒體用下這麼大的標去批判一個央行的總裁我們過去這麼多幾位總裁一路走下來我從來也很少看到總統會去直接去提說我要找總裁來談一談聊一聊這個政策過檔直接"},{"start":595.126,"end":623.709,"text":"打臉或是欺騙．我們從媒體上看到是這件事情你我都同意央行在做很多決策的時候應該要有它的獨立性要有你們的專業性如果你認為央行應該有自己的獨立性的話未來如果有其他的政治干預我私底下請問你總裁會不會願意用自己的去留去捍衛中央銀行這塊精緻招牌因為央行應該要有自己的獨立性嘛"},{"start":624.9,"end":633.204,"text":"我想我跟委員報告就是說從以前到現在我總覺得...你以前有聽過彭淮南接到過哪些人的電話總統或誰的電話說這個政策直接在媒體上說這個政策過當我要找他來喝咖啡我要找他來了解這個政策不行"},{"start":647.893,"end":659.645,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告就是說媒體他是在旁邊看他的一個所以呢也就是說對實際的情況也不是說百分之百是完全正確的"},{"start":661.307,"end":687.628,"text":"所以我再請我總裁你一直剛沒有回到最後一個我不想佔用別人的時間就是說央行的獨立性是很重要因為他非常你們非常的專業應該不要受到太多政治外力的干擾去做很多的決策我講這句話你同意嘛對不對如果有太多的政治干預去干預到央行的決策總裁你會不會用自己的去留去捍衛中央銀行這塊獨立性的招牌"},{"start":692.394,"end":709.159,"text":"所以如果受到政治力太多的介入,你會不會用你的去留來捍衛央行獨立性的招牌?"},{"start":712.3,"end":715.181,"text":"謝謝袁秀,接下來請李昆城委員發言。"},{"start":747.985,"end":749.241,"text":"好,謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時22分）謝謝，可不可以請楊總裁？"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早安。我想大家都非常關心打炒房後續的成效，從今年8月份開始找公股銀行喝咖啡之後，包括在9月份祭出第七波的相關的打房政策，到打房政策宣布之後，陸陸續續提出了相關的補救措施，我要請問總裁，你覺得這樣一路走下來，你在8月中提到三個政策要達到目標，包括銀行必須要華麗的轉身，包括必須要給投資客、投機客一個教訓，另外就是目標就是讓房市cool down下來，這三個政策目標有達到了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們給銀行的道德說服，他們給我們的資料……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，總裁，因為我們只有10分鐘……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是一年……"],["李委員彥秀：你就直接告訴我，你當時設定的三個目標，現在你自己一定有評估，有沒有達到它的效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我覺得我們還在慢慢的觀察，我也不敢說現在做下去，三個目標都達到。"],["李委員彥秀：朝正向達到目標的……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是目前我總覺得好像有一點向前的樣子，有正向……"],["李委員彥秀：往前走？"],["楊總裁金龍：有正向的一個發展。"],["李委員彥秀：那你一定有預估什麼時候大概會要做一個總檢討。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我很難去預估什麼時候。"],["李委員彥秀：如果沒有達到你這三個目標，後續有沒有可能再進行第八波的打房政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們……"],["李委員彥秀：如果沒有達到你的目標，你後面一定還會想……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣子啦，我還是要強調，房地產的健全方案不是只有中央銀行。"],["李委員彥秀：當然是，但是你有……每個部會都有它的政策工具。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對，對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是在你央行的政策工具，就是祭出你的手段。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們滾動式的檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：所以，總裁，如果後續沒有達到你的政策目標，你到底會不會不排除進行第八波的信用管制？有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們滾動式檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：你會滾動式檢討，這就代表有可能，好，那在這個過程當中，就是你滾動式檢討，反正你有的政策工具都有可能祭出來，包括不排除第八波的打房政策，這也是你的選項之一，有可能嘛，所以你才會說滾動式的檢討。總裁，在這個過程當中，有沒有哪些是你覺得處理得不夠細膩或不夠周全的地方？因為你現在才在做補救措施嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的補救措施就是換房子的還有繼承的，換房子的在前一波我們也有這樣一個協處的措施，那繼承的是這一次，因為上一次是沒有對有房子要貸款的，我們沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：所以，總裁，如果這麼說的話，就是當時在祭出第七波的打房政策時有一些例外沒有思考得更完整，對不對？後面才會有補救措施。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不是，事實上，繼承的這個部分，因為有房子然後要借錢的部分，我們這一次才……所以以前的那個，就繼承的我們就沒有提出來，但是換房子的這部分，上一次我們就有協處措施了，所以我們這一次才會再提出協處措施。"],["李委員彥秀：好，這整個打房的過程，我也從媒體上看到總統跟院長也非常關心這件事情，所以，到底總統跟院長有沒有找過你開會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我記得行政院對於新青安的這個問題……"],["李委員彥秀：沒有，就是針對你宣布第七波，你找銀行喝咖啡之後。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：從來沒有打過電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我跟委員報告，我們的第七波都是我們實施了以後，我們馬上把新聞稿送給總統府、行政院。"],["李委員彥秀：你在找銀行喝咖啡之後，8月30號卓院長說他要找你來開會，院長沒有找你開過會？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有跟你通過電話？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，所以有些時候我們如果不講清楚，好像是說……"],["李委員彥秀：你就對我問的問題講清楚就好啦！我從媒體上看到，因為你那時候找銀行來喝咖啡，要祭出限貸令的時候，我從媒體上看到卓院長說要找你來喝咖啡談一談限貸令的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：他沒有說要喝咖啡啦，只是說了解一下……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有找過你？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，了解一下我們做的情況，後來我們給他……"],["李委員彥秀：找過你幾次？"],["楊總裁金龍：一次。"],["李委員彥秀：找過你一次喔，找你開會還是通電話？總統有沒有打過電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：只有談一談，不到5分鐘。"],["李委員彥秀：那總統有沒有打過電話給你？因為我從媒體上看，總統也很關心這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：總統也提到這個事情要好好的了解一下，他也非常的關心，總統有沒有打過電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有打電話給我。"],["李委員彥秀：完全沒有喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：就我們道德說服這部分，他沒有打電話給我。"],["李委員彥秀：可是總統在媒體上說，央行在處理這件事情的時候是過當了，所以他沒有打過電話給你？也沒有透過人打電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：他沒有講說……"],["李委員彥秀：我從9月1號賴清德總統說……"],["楊總裁金龍：他沒有說中央銀行做這一件事情是過當吧？"],["李委員彥秀：我從媒體上看到。"],["楊總裁金龍：我好像沒有看到這個報導。"],["李委員彥秀：你沒看到喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有看到。"],["李委員彥秀：所以就只有卓院長打過電話給你？好。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是打電話，我們也聊了不到5分鐘，就這樣而已。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我請教總裁，你認不認為央行是獨立機關？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想央行是在政府制度裡面的，但是我們的貨幣政策、外匯政策……"],["李委員彥秀：你們到底算不算獨立機關？你認為應不應該有自己的獨立性？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是覺得中央銀行也是政府體制的一部分，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我只問你……"],["楊總裁金龍：我只能說中央銀行的貨幣、外匯政策是中央銀行來審查核定的。"],["李委員彥秀：中央銀行應不應該有自己的獨立性？"],["楊總裁金龍：我只是說我們有審查跟核定的權限，你如果說……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，其實我一直以來都非常敬重你，我也非常尊敬你，即便最近有幾個國際媒體把你評為B+，我都認為你在我心目中仍舊是5A總裁，因為你在做很多事情的果決判斷，我覺得是很明朗、清楚的。當然央行應該有自己的獨立性，全世界各國的中央銀行其實都有它的獨立性、透明度跟可究責性，這個是央行應該要有的特性，它不應該受到太多外力的介入。我不知道你有沒有讀到，風傳媒跟聯合報近期都有一篇報導，風傳媒提到「如果彭淮南在，卓榮泰敢把手伸進央行嗎？」聯合報的社論提到「干預央行，兩蔣不敢，卓榮泰敢！」你自己有沒有看過這兩篇報導？你有讀到這兩篇報導嗎？有看到吧？跟你有關的，你應該有看到吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，我有看到。"],["李委員彥秀：你有看到喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：我有看到。"],["李委員彥秀：所以看到這兩篇報導，是我杞人憂天，還是你央行其實心裡也有很多的苦？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我……"],["李委員彥秀：完全沒有苦？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛還是有跟委員報告，就是中央銀行的貨幣信用和外匯政策，這個是由中央銀行的理事，我們的委員會審核還有核定……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，沒關係，我問你一句話，風傳媒評論說，如果彭淮南在，卓榮泰敢嗎？言下之意就是，因為是你，所以卓榮泰敢打電話給你。看到這篇報導，你心裡有什麼感受？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想媒體對一個事件的評論，有些時候它也沒有對整個的情況是不是……就是說真正地知道，應該也就是從旁邊看，做這樣的一個評論。至於它是不是很準確，這個我就……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我過去從來沒有看到媒體下這麼大的標去批判一個央行的總裁；過去這麼多的幾位總裁一路走下來，我也很少看到總統會直接提到：我要找總裁來談一談、聊一聊，這個政策過當。直接打臉，或者直接洗臉。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有說我們的政策過當。"],["李委員彥秀：我們從媒體上看到是這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他好像沒有這麼說。"],["李委員彥秀：你我都同意，央行在做很多決策的時候應該要有獨立性，要有你們的專業性。如果你認為央行應該有自己的獨立性的話，未來如果有其他的政治干預，我私底下請問你，總裁會不會願意用自己的去留來捍衛中央銀行這塊金字招牌？因為央行應該要有著自己的獨立性嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，從以前到現在，我總覺得……"],["李委員彥秀：你以前有聽過彭淮南接到過哪些人的電話、總統或誰的電話提到政策，直接在媒體上說這個政策過當，我要找他來喝咖啡，我要找他來瞭解，這個政策不行。有直接被這樣打臉過？歷屆的央行從來沒有這樣子被打臉過。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我還是要跟委員報告，媒體是在旁邊看，所以對實際的情況也不是說百分之百完全正確，某些部分是臆測的。"],["李委員彥秀：你剛剛一直沒有回答我，最後一個問題，我不想占用別人時間，就是央行的獨立性很重要，因為你們非常專業，應該不要受到太多政治的外力干擾去做很多決策，我講這句話你同意嘛？對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的……"],["李委員彥秀：如果有太多的政治干預，干預到央行的決策，總裁會不會用自己的去留來捍衛中央銀行這塊獨立性的招牌？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想從以前到現在，中央銀行的貨幣政策都是我們的委員共同決定的，我只能說……"],["李委員彥秀：所以如果受到政治力太多的介入，你會不會用你的去留來捍衛央行獨立性的招牌？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這個是……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，你要有guts，以後才不會隨便接到電話。去證明你的很多決策是專業的，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我總說一句話，就是我謝謝委員的支持跟鼓勵，就這樣子啦！可以吧！"],["李委員彥秀：你仍舊是我心目中5A的總裁，下次有機會我再跟你好好聊是為什麼。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝彥秀。","接著請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}